Is this transandrophobia?
1. I'm generally uncomfortable when trans men try and discuss the concept of intersectionality when it comes towards them and claim that manhood and transness are a noteworthy intersection. I still struggle to see how being a man specifically changes things. I more so see the oppression as coming from the fact that they're forced into specifically being seen as or wanted to be forced to be women/girls. And that's a form of misogyny. All of what specifically affects trans men can be tied back in part to misogyny or other aspects like racism, broader transphobia, or similar. This isn't to say they don't experience unique things but that it doesn't come from a mystical place of "misandry" which is a concept that has no true backing as all patriarchal oppression of men is actually inherently misogynistic.
2. I still don't really understand how trans men are meaningfully impacted by transmisogyny on a large enough scale to claim that transmisogyny is a trans issue and not primarily a transfem and trans women's issue. The same way I don't understand how trans women are meaningfully impacted by transandrophobia to claim to be nearly as affected as trans men and mascs.
3. I firmly believe that *stealth* white passing trans men have male privilege that is not the same as a cis man's but far more firm than a trans woman can ever achieve outside of boymoding which is worse for the transfem because in that case she would be getting misgendered meanwhile he (the theoretical transmasc) would be getting gendered correctly.
4. I feel like it's very common for trans masculine people to feel threatened when confronted with ways they do hold privilege over transfems and trans women. I also feel it is common for transfems and trans women to feel threatened when confronted with ways they do hold privilege over transmascs and trans men. We have very different experiences and the ability to be relatively safer from one form allows for a semblance of privilege.
Yes, this is transandrophobia.
I'm generally uncomfortable when trans men try and discuss the concept of intersectionality when it comes towards them and claim that manhood and transness are a noteworthy intersection. I still struggle to see how being a man specifically changes things. I more so see the oppression as coming from the fact that they're forced into specifically being seen as or wanted to be forced to be women/girls.
The intersectionality isn't just manhood and transness. Its atypical manhood and transness.
Not all of our issues come from being viewed as female. Let me paint you a few specific scenarios that are SPECIFICALLY about being a man:
1- Masculine genderqueers/sexqueers are treated as disgusting scary predators. Our headmate Arwen, who is a trans man, had to listen to people in a queer youth group discussing how much they hate masculinity and how toxic masculinity is. All the transmascs were sitting awkwardly in the sidelines, being made to feel as though their identity is evil. Additional example of this can be seen from this person [link] (disclaimer: the mod of this-is-transandrophobia is anti-endo, I do not support that account, I'm only linking to it specifically for the anon's experience.)
Not to mention the very common "I'd cross the street if I saw you, you look so scary!!!" as an attempt to "affirm" a masc's gender. This basically tells trans men that they are monsters and predators that should detransition.
2- Trans men and intersex men with mullerian ducts are told that they cannot talk about uteruses, ovaries, or anything related to them because they are men. They are told that it "doesnt matter" if they have these organs, because it is not a "male issue" and are told they are "nitpicking" when they say its not women-exclusive healthcare.
3- People regularly mock phalloplasties and top surgery scars, and say that testosterone makes queer mascs "aggressive", "dangerous", and "ugly."
There are many other examples, but those are the first three that come to mind which are focused on being viewed as man, not being viewed as a woman.
This isn't to say they don't experience unique things but that it doesn't come from a mystical place of "misandry" which is a concept that has no true backing as all patriarchal oppression of men is actually inherently misogynistic.
Misandry is a term that was bastardized by incels and anti-feminists. I agree that the way it has been used is meaningless. However, anti-masculinity does exist. Look at black men, for example, who are bastardized in unique ways due to being black men. The way they are treated is different than how black women are treated, because of their masculinity.
Same for disabled men. How many neurodivergent men are deemed as predators simply for having non-typical traits while masculine? How many neurodivergent men are arrested for "suspicious behavior"?
I really recommend you look at the experiences of marginalized men and try to set aside your pre-conceived biases based on how the term "misandry" was misused.
I still don't really understand how trans men are meaningfully impacted by transmisogyny on a large enough scale to claim that transmisogyny is a trans issue and not primarily a transfem and trans women's issue. The same way I don't understand how trans women are meaningfully impacted by transandrophobia to claim to be nearly as affected as trans men and mascs.
Transmisogyny affects transmascs because transphobes often cannot tell which direction a person is transitioning. Same goes for why transandrophobia affects transfems.
I firmly believe that *stealth* white passing trans men have male privilege that is not the same as a cis man's but far more firm than a trans woman can ever achieve outside of boymoding which is worse for the transfem because in that case she would be getting misgendered meanwhile he (the theoretical transmasc) would be getting gendered correctly.
Your theoretical trans man is irrelevant to the discussion because they rarely ever exist, however, lets explore this for a minute.
A stealth white passing trans man often will feel completely isolated from the queer community (due to previously mentioned hostility towards masculinity), and also terrified of being outed as trans by anyone around them. They still have a history, after all, family or old acquaintances/peers who knew them pre-transition, and - even if they moved far away - could out them through online forums.
And you don't take into account that medical professionals are still going to know they are trans, on the basis of medical history, and they are still at risk of medical discrimination because of it.
"Stealth" could mean a lot of things. Do you mean a trans man who is SPETE [link], who has had the mullerian duct removed, had a (perinormative-passing) penis added, and been on androgenizing HRT? Or do you mean a trans man who is SPETE that just happens to hide their transness?
Because if its the former, this trans man who is SPETE could have their testosterone taken away at any point (due to it being a controlled substance), and thus face serious health issues. Not to mention that if any of their scars from surgery (ie; potential top surgery scars, potential phalloplasty scars, etc) get exposed, they will be outed.
If its the latter, a trans man who is SPETE could still have the previously discussed reproductive rights issues if they haven't gotten their reproductive duct removed. They could also have a vulva or atypical genitalia (ie; clitoromegaly from HRT, a vagina-preserving phalloplasty, a metoidioplasty that gives them a small phallus, etc), and thus be at risk of outing on that basis, and still be in danger when going into men's restrooms.
I feel like it's very common for trans masculine people to feel threatened when confronted with ways they do hold privilege over transfems and trans women. I also feel it is common for transfems and trans women to feel threatened when confronted with ways they do hold privilege over transmascs and trans men. We have very different experiences and the ability to be relatively safer from one form allows for a semblance of privilege.
We do not hold privelege over transfems. We feel threatened when told that we do because it is not the case. Transitioning for us has the same medical and social issues. We are not very different from each other. The only "privilege" we have is in a hyperspecific scenario that - with one simple glance at a medical file, or having medical care taken away from us, or a person we knew pre-transition exposing us, or a look at our scars and/or genitals, or even just sitting down in a bathroom to pee with the "wrong" genitals - could be stripped away in a second.
I think it's an issue to try and make one trans group out to be more priveleged than the others. I think its a massive waste of time, if anything, to be having these debates, when we could be uplifting each others voices instead.
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