A Song of Swords and Wolves and Dragons

"Game of Thrones" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" analyses, alternatives, art.

[death-of-cats]

one thing i don't think ASOIAF predictions take into account enough is the return of magic to the world and straight up magical shit starting to happen more

[melrosing]

What if George does write a jb sex scene but it will be terrible?

unpopular opinion but I don’t think GRRM is that bad at writing sex scenes (at least not in the way most people think) - he’s just not writing erotica. most of them are pretty appropriately disturbing/awkward/etc depending on the characters engaging.

for jb I don’t really know exactly what to expect, like Brienne may have similar feelings to Sam (of fat pink mast fame) in the moment so wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a meme line or two that comes out of it, but otherwise I think it just won’t be much longer than half a paragraph lol, GRRM’s sex scenes are still pretty perfunctory for all that

[agameofsong]

@seethemflying: #I do think it will be from Jaime’s perspective#and we’ll get the morning after from Brienne’s

[swordmaid]

sweet to look upon….!!!

[oananovicov]

Jaimie of House Lannister - The Kingslayer.

[swordmaid]

brienne the blue 🌙🌞

[loveisbreathinghere]

i stand by the statement that anyone who believes brienne and tormund were meant to be, has a fundamental misunderstanding of brienne's character and doesn't actually like her.

[agameofsong]

@loveisbreathinghere: #this was a reaction to a tiktok#tormund looked at her like a piece of meat the relationship was played up for laughs#she was visibly uncomfortable by his advances#whereas with jaime there's such a level of respect between one another and she's also in love with him!!!#i'm firmly in the camp that love doesn't make a female character weak and an unconventional romance between them does make sense#braime#brienne of tarth#jaime lannister#a song of ice and fire#asoiaf#this is of course in reference to the show

[melrosing]

is there evidence other than the Weirwood dream that Jaime will wield Widow's Wail?

the weirwood dream is a very strong hint but in this particular instance I think the most conspicuous evidence comes from outside the text itself lmao..... in fact two really stupid ass sources that I would never usually credit for anything but in THIS case....

gurm's livejournal suvudu cage matches for Jaime

yes im serious. for the uninitiated, grrm wrote a series of fanfic in which Jaime fights a variety of fantasy characters for a pan fandom bracket suvudu cage match series, u may have heard of the one in which Jaime slaughters Hermione Granger bc i for one will never stop talking about it. anyway it's not mentioned in that one, but in this journal entry (where Jaime fights a trial of seven), grrm equips Jaime with widow's wail.

now literally why would he do that if Jaime won't one day wield WW. there are plenty of other swords he could have given him. why not Oathkeeper, the blade that has actually passed through his hand?? but grrm didn't even have to mention what sword it was in the first place, he doesn't when Jaime attacks Hermione lol. so it seems to me that grrm is treating Jaime wielding WW as a foregone conclusion.

the fuckin show

Jaime wields widow's wail in the show. like in grrm's blog, his suddenly taking up the sword goes entirely unremarked upon (like does anyone mention this at any point whatsoever), so functionally there was no need to give Jaime the sword. it is nothing more than a visual easter egg, and the writers don't even seem to know what they want you to think when you notice it.

however they did understand at some point in the making of the series that the two swords were meant to represent something big. the first episode of S4 literally opens to an extended sequence of Tywin overseeing the making of oathkeeper and widow's wail, with music playing in the background etc etc.... like the episode is literally CALLED Two Swords. I could juuust about say ok sure write off the opening scene as a symbolic moment in which the Lannisters melt down the Stark legacy, but that doesn't explain why they'd also name the episode Two Swords. I think like everything else the writers knew this meant something once but didn't know how to follow through and didn't care to. there's a weirdly similar example in their using the (abridged) Maggy the Frog prophecy as the prologue to their opening episode of S5, where once again you are given the impression that something of great import is being conveyed that will have huge implications for the rest of the story.... but no when it comes to Tommen's death, Dany's arrival, Cersei's demise etc, it isn't even mentioned.

so, needless to say. they do this. the show is a really bad source for most asoiaf analysis, but you can induce the odd detail even despite poor execution, and sometimes (as in this case) because of poor execution. there was no need to charge these swords with import if you're only going to stick one of them in the character's hand as an unremarked upon easter egg.

so in summary yeah if the actual symbolism within the text isn't enough, I think grrm's blog and that show are bizarrely effective sources

[agameofsong]

@asneakyfox: #the writers of GoT understanding what the big beats were but not why anything was important will never stop fascinating me

[badley]

braime from brienne's perspective is like well i have unattainable romantic prospects all the time as she fails to realise that she is the unattainable one. like. brienne is so. hold on. she's very much young and learning how to live or whatever. she is discovering things about herself she never expected to discover, the good and the bad, and meanwhile she's thinking when have i not failed when have i done or BEEN a single thing that was what was easiest for those around me. brienne is constantly hurting for the people she feels she betrayed by not being born one gender role or another personified. and i think she sees herself as a tool, as a mace and sword. and then she falls for a blonde guy

[melrosing]

no im not even kidding ive just seen a TikTok that appears to reason that Jaime and Brienne are sexually attracted to each other but in a platonic way. that they are into each other but incompatible with intimacy it would be wrong for them. they are a romantic beauty and the best but in a platonic way. DO YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW RIDICULOUS YOU SOUND I CANT DO THIS ANYMORE

[melrosing]

like i think some of yall need to look at yourselves and wonder why you are filled with such dread and discomfort at the very idea of Brienne having sex. bc that's what it is, isn't it. you are squicked at the idea of Brienne fucking. you will NEVER see people (cishet men in particular) twisting themselves into pretzels trying to explain why any other m/f pairing is actually platonic like they do this one it is INSANE

[melrosing]

okay i don't want to link back to the guy bc I'm worried about inadvertently sending hate his way when I think he means well and is just trying to share some honest thoughts (whatever I may think of them LMAO) BUT I want to share what he's said bc I feel like the cognitive dissonance is just wild and I want to unpack it.

so like he starts off the video pointing out a handful of lines where he agrees it is blatantly apparent that Jaime and Brienne are sexually attracted to one another. but then we get this:

But will they get together intimately in the books? No, I don’t think they will. See, and this is just my opinion, I could be totally wrong, but I think it’s because they don’t need to. I don’t think it would do anything for their characters, I don’t think it’s that type of story, I don’t think it’s that type of relationship. And the best way I can describe it, this may not make sense to other people but it makes sense in my mind, is that this relationship, which people have often said is the juxtaposition of the Beauty and the Beast story. You know, beauty, beast, whatever. And that story - and that type of story - is more about love rather than intimacy. And I know those things can go hand in hand, but due to the nature of the world, and due to the nature of the characters, I can’t see them having a serious - even a one-night-stand type of thing - successful intimate scenario. I think Jaime would feel too vulnerable, similar to Brienne. But what I can see is an attempt… maybe drunk, maybe they just go like ‘screw it, let’s go for it’, and it’s very awkward, and they’re like ‘no, this isn’t right’ type of thing. I know I may not have explained it right there, but that’s just my opinion. 

I find this slightly fascinating because I think he's actually verbalising what I've seen many other readers do when they look at the facts, and realise yes, this is a romance, and yes, there are already strong sexual undertones - but they cannot reconcile what is objectively on the page with how they personally feel about the pairing, and try to kind of intellectualise why courtship and intimacy don't really apply to Jaime and Brienne the same way they might any other romance.

like:

I don’t think it would do anything for their characters

...... why??? why wouldn't sex do anything for two characters who are sexually attracted to one another, and have a drawn out arc getting closer to one another?? one has only had secretive sex with one person he's now effectively divorced, the other has never had sex and has never imagined that she would get to enjoy sex?? so like..... what do you mean it would do 'nothing' for them, it would HAVE to do something

I don’t think it’s that type of story

there is sex all over the place in ASOIAF. Just a few POVs who have sex in their chapters include: Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys, Catelyn, Asha, Cersei, literally Jaime - so why would there not be room for Jaime and Brienne specifically to have sex?? it is VERY much that type of story.

I don’t think it’s that type of relationship

you said yourself they are sexually attracted to one another and seem to agree it's romantic. so... why wouldn't it become that type of relationship?

people have often said is the juxtaposition of the Beauty and the Beast story. You know, beauty, beast, whatever. And that story - and that type of story - is more about love rather than intimacy

..... i mean it's a children's fairytale so they do tend to leave the fucking out but here's a thought: George doesn't

and I know those things can go hand in hand, but due to the nature of the world, and due to the nature of the characters

due to the nature of.... their world?? where people fuck all the time??? or our world?? where people fuck all the time?? also the nature of their characters, they both have sexualities and desire each other, YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN

I can’t see them having a serious - even a one-night-stand type of thing - successful intimate scenario. I think Jaime would feel too vulnerable, similar to Brienne. But what I can see is an attempt… maybe drunk, maybe they just go like ‘screw it, let’s go for it’, and it’s very awkward, and they’re like ‘no, this isn’t right’ type of thing.

here is what I find very telling, and what I also found very telling in D&D's JB 'sex scene'. I think we are seeing awkwardness imposed upon JB from the perspective of the reader here. like yes, I agree, their first time would probably be a bit awkward - Jaime has experience with only one person, and Brienne with no one, but I'd say perhaps the majority of 'first times' are awkward. but if it's a consensual encounter between two people who are sexually and romantically attracted to one another..... you have to explain, on what basis do you think it would be 'unsuccessful'? what is going to poison this encounter? what is fundamentally 'not right' about it?

I'm going to take a guess that there is something about Brienne, an ugly woman who presents in quite a masculine way, having sex with a beautiful man, that strikes a lot of people as 'not right'. I think it struck D&D, even though they had Gwendoline Christie of all people to ease them into the idea. it just flies right in the face of what so many people consider 'sexy', and so they work to get the sex out of it. there is a reason that D&D adapted Jaime and Brienne's love scene the way they did, and it has a lot more to do with their discomfort and awkwardness around the pairing than it has anything to do with the characters themselves. and without meaning to project that onto this tiktokker..... i'm going to hazard a guess that given the prevalence of these bizarre non-arguments, some of that discomfort factors in here too.

[anneboleynqueen]

Natalie Dormer as Anne Boleyn in The Tudors (2007-2010)

[scrapyardwarlocks]

This is my Braime rant.

Oh, hello there. Yes, it’s been a few years, and I’m still thinking about the GOT finale. When people talk about it, it’s mostly to roast Bran getting the throne or Daenerys turning evil because of a bell tower (both extremely valid), BUT I am forever the most salty about the way Jaime and Brienne’s story ended. Like…????????

First, I must acknowledge that there are the Tormund x Brienne shippers. I suppose their relationship could’ve gotten more emotionally complex if given the chance, but we only see Tormund horny boy howling because of Brienne’s size and strength. In huge contrast, Jaime Lannister’s connection to Brienne goes much further than a surface-level attraction to a large, powerful woman.

They fundamentally changed each other for the better in HUGE ways:

Brienne’s relationship with Jaime gave her a sense of agency she never had before. He gave her the opportunities and tools to fulfill exactly what she wanted to be. He developed an unwavering trust in her judgment and skills as a knight that she hadn’t really experienced before. A feminist king, if there ever was one (after a personal growth journey, of course).

Brienne allowed Jaime to see his potential as an honorable man. He opened up to her emotionally in a way he’s done with no one else (except maybe his brother Tyrion?) Although she wasn’t the only reason he decided to defy his sister and do what’s right, she certainly had a monumental impact on his self-worth and morality.

Even when they were firmly on opposite sides, they still advocated and protected each other. Jaime lost the hand he used for sword fighting, and he fought a BEAR for her, for God’s sake.

And you can’t argue that they didn’t have a physical and emotional connection. The amount of unadulterated, obvious yearning is insane, y’all. Right in front of everyone’s salad.

I mean, Brienne willingly gives him her virginity, something she’s been vehemently defending her whole life. She allowed him to see her at her most vulnerable. But then…

Jaime decides to go back to King’s Landing to protect his sister at the last moment. Keep in mind, he had already fully betrayed Cersei just a few episodes beforehand. In the end, he dies in his emotionally abusive sister’s arms, and the show implies that she’s the woman he truly loves… it’s genuinely vile to me.

If Jaime had stayed in the same place he was in season one, the exact same thing would’ve happened to him in the end. So… WTF was the point? What was the point of all that inner conflict, emotional growth, meaningful connection? Jack squat, according to the writers and the footnote dedicated to him in the King’s Landing records. 

What lesson are we supposed to learn from this, huh? No matter how hard you try to grow and change, what you were born into will always drag you back? You should stay in a toxic relationship, no matter how destructive, because you still feel like you love them? People who have made mistakes in the past don’t deserve a second chance at life? That is what I got with the end to Jaime’s story.

Thank you for your time, your honor.

[agameofsong]

@angelowl-fics: #yep yep yep#I know the common refrain for S8 was what was the point#but really in hindsight what was the point of Jaime losing his goddamn hand#that loss changed so much for him in the books but it was barely a blip on the radar in the show#there was no real identity crisis no real rift with Cersei#S6 and S7 seemed to be building to something only for 804/805 to reveal his act of rebellion to be a mere 3 ep detour from his ~destiny#it's just so maddening#and to think that when d&d gave all the actors the storyboard for their character's pivotal scene they gave Nikolaj a pic of the hand chop#WHY??????

[goosemixtapes]

“a relationship should be between one man and one woman” a relationship should be a cunty backstabbing swordsman, a butch knight with autism, and the emotional shadows of the two kings that died under their respective watches

[emprcaesar]

this has the same effect as crack

[ellemisc]

the rightful heir 🥀

[sunsetlovelydreams]

How do I know Jaime wasn't self-serving? How do I know he didn't kill his King to save his own life from the wildfire?

Because when Aerys raped Rhaella, when Aerys burned people alive, Jaime stayed silent because he was forced to, not because he was protecting himself. Jaime was ready to stop the King while standing outside the Queen's door and damn the consequences of his disobediance. This goodness was trained out of him the longer he spent in that Kingsguard. But one by one, all his constraints (read: his honorable brothers) disappeared, and only his judgement and that training remained. That training was tested, however, by the enormity of Aerys' last madness, and it did not hold up against the natural instinct in Jaime to protect.

And so was born the Kingslayer.

[do-you-ship-it-polls]

Do you ship it?

Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth (GOT/ASOIAF)

I ship it!

Neutral

I don't ship it

I don't know the characters

Voting ended onApr 25, 2024

reason: They hated each other until they went on the world's shittiest road trip ever and became insanely devoted to each other to the point where Jaime lost a hand for her and literally jumped in a bear pit to protect her

[miraart451]

The great thing about drawing is that you can choose to inflict your "Daenerys Targaryen has a mullet" headcanon on other people

[agameofsong]

She looks great, actually.