Timestamped responses to Jenny Nicholson's new Patreon ramble about Evermore.
You'll have to be subbed to her Patreon to have any context for these, but Patreon is also pretty bad at sorting and finding comments so I'm reposting it here for a bit more visibility.
4:34 I hadn’t heard of him either, despite the fact that I was a performer during time he was supposedly a manager. This isn’t really surprising, ground-level employees scarcely received communication from or about anything above their department’s management.
6:55 Hi Bob! He was actually a cast member at Evermore for one season. This was after he had already been reporting on Evermore for a while, and AFAIK none of his content even during or after that period was endorsed by the park. I can attest he is as friendly and genuine in person as he is in his videos, and a great guy.
7:07 There were several others during the first few years. After Evermore announced in early 2021 that they were discontinuing all stories, quest, and characters they had done up until that point and changing to a more story-light experience, several of the most dedicated fans and frequent guests stopped engaging with the park, including any who made content about it.
8:32 Yeah. They did reorganize and lay people off several times, but only below a certain point in seniority. Obviously Ken himself and any business partners or investors that had any stake in the company maintained control. Though, if they ever “managed” anything, it was done in a very hands-off way and dictated through several layers of employees.
9:55 This kind of toxic positivity is rampant in Utah. Any type of criticism or discontent towards any leadership, usually rich, straight, white men, is highly frowned upon. Literally, in this case. The people who dare to express negative opinions or challenge the status quo (who are often not rich straight white men) are then viewed as problematic and practically shunned. Anyone who criticizes or challenges is bad, bad people are untrustworthy, therefore their criticisms and opinions are invalid.
10:23 Also strange since he did create a TTRPG company. If anything, I think that would qualify someone as a “nerd” themselves.
11:12 Ken held strong control over a lot of aspects of the park and the business, but it’s obviously far too big of an operation for one person to micro-manage so much of it. Another example is he wouldn’t let anyone change the Evermore website. It was commonly suggested to use the website as a way to communicate storylines and background information for new guests but it never happened. It’s unclear if Ken outright refused that, or if he didn’t mind the idea but wouldn’t do it himself or let anyone else have access to do it.
13:25 There were times when the food at the park was good. I don’t know if they were only able to have better food by cutting corners, operating without being under code, and then changed once they were under scrutiny (remember when one of the buildings lit on fire?), or if they just cut costs.
17:40 I think [Jenny is] probably right, and I don’t think this was the only time it or something similar happened. There were several times Ken would try to bring new money in, and sometimes people would bite-only to quickly back out after learning how bad the situation was.
18:50 That would require admitting fault or failure from park leadership, and thus would have never happened.
22:50 This aggravates me lol. Changing the official Facebook page name for the park changed all my “worked at” and tagged posts to say “Thecrookedlantern” instead of “Evermore Park” and it looks awful and drives me crazy.
23:30 I’m definitely biased here but I do think that some of the intellectual property that Ross now owns does have some value, or at least at one point had the potential to, but ironically it was all but abandoned after the aforementioned 2021 announcement. The worldbuilding and characters had their moments, and the Evermore Realms card game, while a relatively small project, was reportedly actually profitable for Evermore. There was an entire second set of cards designed and ready to print that never saw the light of day. Furthermore, even though Ross technically owns all the intellectual property from Evermore, he might not even be aware of most of it. Even if he was it probably wasn't properly archived anywhere. He’d have to dig through old employee emails Google Drives to piece it together, if that data even still exists or he has any way to access it, or rehire someone who worked on it to attempt to recreate it.
25:25 An Evermore property only designed to look nice and not actually facilitate people or events there? Consider me shocked. /s
30:00 Beyond the Gates is not the first former employee/fans spiritual successor that has been attempted. I was briefly involved with a group called Mynheras larp that was also the same concept. Their goal was to not have the same problems Evermore had and then almost immediately began falling apart because they were having the same problems Evermore had-at least on the creative side of things. They didn’t have any money. I haven’t worked with Beyond the Gates but there are good and talented people who are involved and I wish them the best.
31:20 I’d like to think most of us are appreciative towards the work [Jenny] did and agree with all the criticism [Jenny] made (and more), and I know several of us are, but it is Utah. I would be disappointed, but not surprised, to find a handful who hold undue resentment towards [Jenny].
39:00 I don’t know anything about this exhibit in particular, but there were so many incredibly talented people who were exploited, burned, and abandoned by Evermore. Several sculptors and creature-creators worked for months to years before the park opened, and then were laid off within months of the park opening. I’m glad to see some of their efforts and creations survived and are being put to some use.
42:30 I’m getting emotional and nostalgic seeing these omg ;_;
44:25 oh I’m so glad you had the opportunity to speak to one of them directly!
44:50 YES. This was actually a part of a big and surprising problem with Evermore’s development and how there was no intellectual property developed (e.g. story and characters) before they had to start building them. I’ll go into this in more depth in my eventual video about my experiences at Evermore if I ever finish it
47:00 I actually didn’t know a lot of this either and it explains a lot.
47:20 and while I’m sure this all true, a lot of the puppets and creature suits did fall into significant disrepair and were never fixed.
51:20 I never personally saw any of this behavior but I did hear about it from others who I 100% believe.
52:00 My impression is that he’s not evil or malicious per se, but is someone whose ego far surpasses his competence and refuses to acknowledge or accept his failures or shortcomings. When confronted with them, he lashes out.
EDIT: I have since seen his recent Twitter replies. He has gone full alt-right Musk bro. Evermore was something of a haven for a lot of marginalized communities in Utah, not to mention -he has queer children himself-, so him revealing those opinions is a complete betrayal. I try to afford some benefit of doubt where possible, but he’s shown his true colors.
55:00 this is hilarious and I never heard these details before. While, I believe, none of the displays were intended to be specifically religious, several of the antiques were originally religious in nature and several sculptures made for the park were themed similarly. It all felt very classically Catholic or Anglican, which is funny to do in Utah where the population is very religious and conservative but specifically (and proudly) NOT Catholic or Anglican. Mormons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
56:55 lmao we literally called that building “the barn” the first couple of seasons.
57:55 I was under the impression that the tavern was one of the few that was an original design, but maybe that was just the interior.
59:10 As far as I know, they never attempted to sell liquor on the park premises outside of the premium special events and Vander’s Keep. Corners were cut constantly, but I don’t think they were ever this bold with it. I’m sure he wanted to, but it would be impossible to get away with in Utah. It would stand out so much compared to any other similar attraction in the state, and enough of the population would actually be shocked and offended at the presence of alcohol that some suburban parents with too much time on their hands would report them immediately.
1:00:30 I don’t recall any specific details but there were several liens and lawsuits from contractors who weren’t paid even in the first year Evermore was open.
1:01:40 I’m not an authority on this subject but I don’t actually think this was the case for this building. The upper floor did have “pillars”, but they weren’t put in until several years after the park opened and were clearly fake and not structurally integral. There were antique stone columns in the park (and I once heard they were actually the oldest artifacts on site), but they were across the graveyard from the building around the weird shrine with the antique statue of Saint Apollonia, the Catholic patron saint of dentistry. To be clear, the mausoleum could easily have not been up to code but it wasn’t because there were marble columns in the upper floor. I’m not trying to defend the park by any means, but I’d like to try to keep the facts straight to paint an accurate picture.
1:03:50 These details are also new to me and also not a surprise. Infrastructure throughout the park was very limited. Again, I’m not an expert and don’t know the specifics, but the idea of hosting mid-sized performances and concerts was brought up several times almost immediately when the park opened, and I was told the infrastructure couldn’t support anything like that. Not even electricity for proper lights and sound.
1:04:50 As far as I know this is correct. I’m sure new owners wouldn’t want to inherit all the problems, debts, and negative reputation Evermore Park the company has, but it is sad that the park and the intellectual property have been separated.
1:12:13 I’m getting flashbacks to hbomberguy revealing that Tommy Tallarico wasn’t actually on MTV Cribs
1:16:00 While I’m also not particularly optimistic, this is still a much better outcome than having it all be demolished and bulldozed for condominiums.
1:20:00 This isn’t the first time this has happened in Utah. They seem to be copying a trend of semi-high-profile scavenger hunts that have taken place in the state over the past several years. Unsurprisingly, the winners are always the people who can afford to commit the most time to it (i.e. not working a day job), which aren’t the people that could use the money the most.
1:32:20 Amongst the several, several red flags around Realm Town (and that terrible, terrible name), the one point of optimism I’ll give is that the man in this footage here (he’s not as public as the owners so I won’t name him but for all I know he introduces himself in one of their videos) is the former “Project Director” at Evermore from late 2019 until the layoffs in 2021, and was in a senior creative position for at least a year before that. He was creatively involved in all the storylines and “gameplay” that existed during what is considered to be Evermore’s peak, and experienced firsthand all the traps, shortcomings, frustrations, and challenges in developing and operating Evermore. Him returning to the land formerly-known-as-Evermore is something of a redemption arc, or could be. I would say that because of his direct, firsthand experience that he is one of the more qualified people who could direct this project, but judging by everything you’re pointing out here I worry he is in a similar position under the Foxes as he was under Ken. But I also wonder, because of the new ownership’s apparent cluelessness and aimlessness, if he and/or other people passionate about the park were the ones who encouraged them to purchase the land in the first place.
1:50:40 Meh. If they didn’t know what they were getting into when they purchased the land then you’re just educating them about it now. Anyone reasonable would be grateful for it, but maybe it’s unrealistic to expect that anyone who owns these projects to be reasonable.
1:52:10 Oh! There it is! The card game. I am forever bitter about it because the characters I played weren’t included in the initial set that was printed but were going to be in the finished but unpublished second set. Someone who had connections to its development very generously leaked the art to me and it’s amazing and I don’t know if I can even legally share it.
I moved states after my last season at Evermore in August 2023, so I don’t have too much more insight into Realm Town or any other ongoing developments. What small relevance I’ve had here is quickly diminishing haha. I mentioned in another comment that I’m working on a video describing my experiences at Evermore. I say this not to self-promote, but hopefully by making myself accountable to some other people I might be encouraged enough to actually finish it. Big thanks yet again to Jenny for her earnest and thorough approach to this fascinating topic (and to all the topics she covers on her channel) that means a lot, or meant a lot, to several passionate and talented people and for encouraging large-scale creative endeavors to meet their potential by offering helpful and specific criticisms and ideas.
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