Hello! This is an updated introduction :) At the bottom will be links important to us, and some of our posts.
Who we are >
- We're a diagnosed traumagenic DID system with CPTSD and PTSD. Our usual pronouns are phe/phex/phins, or he/him. We're plural, with autism and ADHD, and BPD with traits of ASPD, NPD, and OCD. We're legally blind with chronic pain/fatigue and breathing problems. We're NZ European (Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish), an adult, Otherkin, a femboy, and transmasc genderqueer. We live in Aotearoa (New Zealand), and we're married to @theharbingerofxhaos <3
What we do >
- We draw, game, write, sing, and cosplay. We study psychology on our own in our spare time and hope to officially study it eventually. For the most part, we'll be posting about what we're interested in. Our hobbies, our general life going-ons, our wife, and our interests.
Interesting stuff about us >
- We've had a special interest in LEGO Ninjago since about 2015. We love playing Stardew Valley. We still have our childhood soft toy, a big plushie of Simba from Disney's animated The Lion King. We (try to) have a necklace for each alter. Part of our pinkie on our right hand is missing, and the bone is visible under the skin where we sliced it off by accident. And we grew up on a farm, the free-range animals type not the crops type.
Interactions >
- We don't have a DNI. You're welcome to DM us or send us an anonymous ask at any point. We do, however, struggle holding conversations.
Some of us you might meet > Note that this isn't everybody. Some alters don't want themselves listed, and others aren't listed for our safety (such as trauma holdeers and those under 18). We have littles, caretakers, gatekeepers, protectors/persecutors, internal self helpers, trauma holders and symptom holders, and have previously had malicators. We also have dealt with regular system resets throughout our life, so we've had many, many different groups of alters.
- Acronix: he/him, 46, Ninjago fictive. Sometimes hyperactive, sometimes not at all.
- Austin: he/him, 23, Lizardfolk. Pretends to be serious but really isn't.
- Avira: dae/daem/thay/thayme, 24, ghost. Very hyperactive, loves cute video games.
- Azrael: he/him, 41, Elven. He's very sweet, if hot-tempered.
- Birch: he/him, 46, Ranger's Apprentuce fictive. Very flirtatious and prideful.
- Crimson: he/him, 23, Red Royal Dragon Celestial. He's a gay dragon.
- Desmond: he/him, 27, Assassin's Creed fictive. Bad fashion sense.
- Elliott: he/him, 29, Stardew Valley fictive. Serious and stuck up, but very protective.
- Ithiel: he/they/she, 46, prismatic humanoid. Patient and thoughtful, most of the time anyway.
- Jade: he/she, 41, Demon. Reckless and withdrawn, many ASPD traits with learned empathy.
- Marcus: he/him, 38, Moon Knight (TV) fictive. Sweet and bubbly, with a fondness for coffee.
- Morro: he/him, 36, Ninjago fictive. Very grumpy, yet gentle.
- Nightsong: she/they, 48, a partial Demon. Very blunt, with the most NPD traits.
- Rakan: he/him, 39, hellhound. Loud, energetic, and wears all black.
- Ronin: he/him, 40, Ninjago fictive. Very protective, defensive, and impulsive.
- Sombra: voi/void, 32, void monster. Impulsive, prideful, and grouchy.
- Sondra: she/her, 32, void humanoid. A less impulsive version of Sombra.
- Tim(e): he/him, 64, angel. Very formal, stubborn, and 'wise'.
Links:
Linktree, other accounts
Our wife's Twitch
List of endogenic system scientific sources
Tumblr list of endogenic system sources
A response to claims of the research being fake
Basics of polyminds and plurality
Information on Dr. Colin Ross, DID specialist and supportive of endogenic systems
some of you just need to accept not everyone with a CDD considers themselves to be a "system" or "multiple" or "plural". like genuinely. you need to stop believing these are inherently CDD experiences that everyone can relate to. people with CDDs are not "systems" they are people with CDDs that sometimes identify as systems.
if you believe yourself to be plural without trauma, i don't care.
if you believe yourself to be plural without having a CDD, i don't care.
however, the terms "endogenic" and "willogenic" are fundamentally claiming to be a part of a group that they simply are not. there is no traumaless "version" of being a system. if you don't have a CDD, stop calling yourself a system. your parts are not "alters". these terms describe symptoms of a clinical condition. if you do not have said condition, you do not get to claim those terms for yourself.
make new terms to describe your experiences. a lot of endos seem to be a part of the MOGAI/LIOM community, which makes it baffling to me that some of them want to cling to the system label so badly.
i think there is a future where all forms of plurality can be accepted and we can all hold hands. it is not my (or anyone else's) place to dictate others' experiences. however, it is 100% my place as a pwDID to say that we cannot be using the same terms to describe our vastly different experiences. because no, being a non-traumagenic plural is nothing like having a CDD and it never will be.
edit; changed OSDDID to CDD to refer to all disordered, traumagenic plurality, as i believe anyone who falls under this label can call themself a system if they so choose
"System" isn't and never has been a term exclusive to those with a CDD. It's a word with a definition that fit the theories around CDDs, and therefore was used to refer to them. Just as it is used to refer to everything else similar - because of "personality system"
The only thing "system" describes is its definition, and it's not defined as CDD symptoms.
Also - just how system ≠ plural and plural ≠ system, traumagenic ≠ disordered and endogenic ≠ non-disordered. There's traumagenic systems without a CDD. And there's endogenic systems with a CDD, because endogenic are those who don't form from trauma. They can still be trauma survivors.
Theory of Structural Dissociation, The Haunted Self,
The American Psychological Association's Dictionary,
Freud's theory of ID, Ego, and Superego (arguably a theory of multiple selves),
The general use of "system" in psychology,
Internal Family Systems, which isn't inherently related to CDDs,
And the use of "system" in the context of multiplicity outside CDDs and trauma,
“The term system is often used to describe a collection of these entities sharing the body. [] There is a diversity of experiences within plurals/systems, such that members of a system may have different gender identities and salience of gender; ages/experience of age; perceived internal appearances; varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts; and complex interrelationships with other system members. [] People who live as plural systems are almost always treated as though this way of living is a pathology. [] Yarbrough observed that many plural systems did not experience distress from the existence of other internal headmates, and recommended shared decision making among headmates when pursuing treatment. [] However, this study adopted a non-pathological approach to plural experience, in order to better understand systems’ authentic experiences."
"These strands of experience are characterized as multiple identities, internal people, self-states, or ‘alters.’ When alters take control of the body, they can be described as ‘fronting,’ and exchange control in a process termed ‘switching’. The term ‘system’ describes the collection of these entities sharing a body, while the term ‘system member’ is a neutral term, equivalent to ‘alter,’ which describes one individual entity within a plural body. Members of a system may have unique experiences of gender and salience of gender, perceived internal appearance, age or experiences of age, varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts. [] The present study uses the term ‘plurality,’ which emerged from the advocacy community of multiples, and recently has been incorporated into the scientific literature. This newer, more inclusive term describes a broad range of pathological and non-pathological multiplicity, denoting those who have more than one person or entity sharing one body as a ‘plural system.’”
“Overall, the term ‘parts’ was viewed as problematic by the participants as it could imply the plural system is not coexisting as a whole. [] Multiplicity has been defined as the experience of having two or more separate selves within one body, with the body’s behaviour being controlled by one-self at any one time. Those who experience multiplicity often refer to themselves as multiples or systems (a system of separate selves). The separate selves within the system, otherwise known as ‘alters’, ‘parts’ or 'headmates’, usually have differing ages, genders, feelings, thoughts and memories. Henceforth, we shall refer to people with DID or multiplicity as ‘systems’ to recognise a more inclusive approach to language for people identifying as multiple. [] The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity.”
“Multiplicity experiences are phenomenologically distinct from clinical dissociative experiences and require understanding of how each system operates to inform language use and support. [] Holistic, person/system-centred therapeutic support can create a reflective space in which the system can make choices as to how to live well, without judgement or stigma. People and systems with lived experience of multiplicity explain their multiplicity as life-enhancing and positive.”
Etc. There's more, but you should get the idea.
Many new terms have already been created. It's had no change, as the argument turns into "you're appropriating CDD experiences"
This discussion was finished by scientific literature a long time ago. "System" was never used to label only symptoms of CDDs
hi! I've been questioning if I might have DID or another CDD for a while now, and most of the time I get stuck on things such as "multiple distinct personality states" or "discontinuity" (in sense of self, agency, etc. more the "discontinuity" part than its related things if it makes sense)
I see alters described as a lot of different things: voices in the head, different people, different parts of oneself, different moods with amnesia between them etc
basically what confuses me is I don't know what is an alter after all this time doing research to find out if what I have might fit. in all this I do have a therapist, I am diagnosed with CPTSD and dissociative amnesia (along other apparently unrelated things, such as depression)
what do alters feel like to you? how did you first find out that you had them? was it through therapy or your own realisation?
sorry it's a lot. I get very confused very easily 😓
It's okay, there's absolutely no need to apologise. If we don't understand something, we'll just ask! We get it - we often think much faster than we can type, so our brain will be a million kilometres away while our hands are trying to catch up. Don't worry about it ❤️
If you're questioning being disordered in general, don't worry about which one right now. Focus on what you are feeling and experiencing at this moment, what you're dealing with today. Put an accurate label on it after. One thing at a time :)
--Our experiences may be triggering, so please skip to further down if you need!--
We discovered we were a system because of a mental breakdown. We'd been having a lot of problems for quite a few years. In and out of mental health places, frequently changing clinicians. We felt like we were going "insane". Like we were utterly "hysterical", and "a psychopath". (In quotes, because that's what we thought at the time, based on our knowledge of mental health then. We have ASPD traits, and don't experience psychotic symptoms anymore.)
We were being told a lot of different things by clinicians, and struggling with a lot of problems. Told we were trans because we'd been "exposed" to queer people and that we actually just had anorexia (we didn't but they made us believe we did.) That we must have Bipolar because everyone in our family does (they didn't). We were severely malnourished, and had fallen into autistic burnout. We didn't even know we were autistic at the time.
It was like everything shit in our life was catching up to us, all at the same time. There's a lot more we don't remember. Severe depression, anxiety, regular NSSI and SI. One bad thing had happened, and it triggered a chain reaction that continued for years. We were utterly desperate to find something, anything that examined what was going on.
It felt like our mind and body were split into different chunks. Sets of emotions and feelings that had voices, which would scream at each other every day. Conflicting and even complete opposite opinions and wants. A multitude of different thoughts running through our head all at the same time.
So, we wrote it down. That we felt like we had different "sides" to us, each with their own chunk of wants and needs and feelings and thoughts and voices and names. That it felt like we'd be "possessed" or "taken over" randomly. And we watched hands belonging to a body that wasn't ours type out different journal entries over months. Like we were watching somebody else describe exactly how we were feeling and what was going on.
And then, we looked it up. "it feels like I have different sides of me with different names etc." What a surprise, dissociative disorders came up. Long story short, research and asking people, thought we had OSDD1, found out more about dissociative amnesia, realised we have DID, and eventually, diagnosed.
There are many different things in our life that pointed towards it. "Roleplay" in childhood where it felt like we literally were the people we were "pretending" to be, it was real to us. "Imaginary friends" who would talk to us, take control of our body, and didn't go away. Doing creative writing almost nonstop everyday for most of our life, because there were so many people in our head that wanted to escape. Severe maladaptive daydreaming (would be disordered) every single morning and night that essentially took complete control over our life. Extreme interest in anything related to possession, mind control, multiple souls, etc. because it "felt like me", because we related to being out of control of our own body. Hearing fictional characters from things we engaged with talking to us in our head, that we described as "being able to hear them say something in their voice". Having 'delusions' related to specific characters, like thinking we have the power to control the wind and rain, or being able to communicate with animals. Etc.
--Hopefully, that answers your questions about our experiences! We found out because we looked up our symptoms, and asked people about the disorder. The medical professionals we were seeing at the time only made us worse, unfortunately. Except for this one absolutely amazing nurse who would do home visits, she would listen to us and help talk us through our problems and symptoms. Encouraged us to get out of the house by taking us to parks we loved. She was by far one of the best we've ever seen, and we've seen many.
We might describe an alter of ours as, a collection of thoughts, emotions, feelings, behaviours, opinions, memories, preferences, etc. specific to them, that has its own voice, its own name, and its own identity. Our system is made up of these little "collections", a collection of these collections. Sometimes, one collection pushes their way into controlling the body.
Each collection has its own presence in the back of the mind, watching and waiting for when it's needed or wanted. The presences all feel different to each other in ways that aren't really explainable. If a gatekeeper wants a specific collection to front, they follow the "presence" and "grab" onto the collection, then pull it to front. Each collection has its own spot in the back of the mind, in the headspace.
Sometimes, they move around. Sometimes, some are loud (stronger 'presence feeling'), and sometimes, some are quiet (lesser 'presence feeling'). Like each collection has its own different piano note constantly playing. Sometimes, some notes are played with one of the pedals. Some of the notes share the same octave, some share chords, some share the same scale/s. Some are right next to each other. So, some of the collections share certain feelings and characteristics. But in the end, they are all different notes.
Sometimes, the piano gets damaged. Sometimes, there are broken keys and strings. Sometimes, somebody throws the piano out the window, or beats it up with a hammer. It's still a piano with keys in the end, just looks a bit different. And sometimes, the piano gets repaired. :)
Also, we hate piano 😄
This is only our experience, though. CDDs have a massive range of experiences. People will feel differently. So if you don't feel this way, it doesn't mean you don't have a CDD! All of what you mentioned can be an alter. We'll try to explain what the DSM is talking about, with its wording.
"Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states, which may be described in some cultures as an experience of possession. The disruption in identity involves marked discontinuity in sense of self and sense of agency, accompanied by related alterations in affect, behavior, consciousness, memory, perception, cognition, and/or sensory-motor functioning."
"Disruption of identity" is switching (or influences/intrusions). So, it's saying you switch between, or are influenced by, "distinct personality states"
"Distinct personality states" are the "alterations in affect, behavior, consciousness, memory, perception, cognition, and/or sensory-motor functioning". One distinct personality state has specific emotions, behaviours, memories, thinking, and functioning. This makes up an "identity" or "personality". Another state will have a different (distinct) personality.
So, it's saying there are states with differences between them, who influence each other or switch with each other. That "disrupts" identity, because it's a different identity.
The "discontinuity in sense of self and sense of agency" is similar. "Discontinuity" is essentially, changing or change. Each identity has its own "sense of self", essentially meaning who it is and what it wants. So, what you want and who you are changes a lot.
"Sense of agency" is essentially the feeling of being in control, and making your own choices. Each identity has its own 'control', separate to others. They will make their own choices. It's often experienced as depersonalisation! So it's saying, there are changes in the feeling of being in control of your own body and choices.
Rewritten, it could say; "There are at least two different states. Each state has its own identity, which is a group of emotions, feelings, memories, and thoughts. States will switch between each other, having separate control to each other. They have their own idea of who they are and what they want."
But even simplified, this can show in many different ways.
Some changes in control will be complete: identities can't see each other, and have no memory of each other. Some changes in control will be partial: identities are aware of each other, but when they aren't in control, they feel completely disconnected. Some changes in control feel more like "changing what an identity experiences" instead of "changing identities".
Identity differences between states vary greatly. Some are so similar, they are identical. Some are opposites. Some share certain characteristics, and not others. Some might have their own names, and others might not. Some remember what other states do, and others don't. Etc.
So, there could be a system with many states that have complete identities, as well as many states without complete identities. Some systems have one state with a complete identity, and the rest don't. Some systems only have states with complete identities. DID typically has states who have quite big changes in control, self, and identities. OSDD1 less so: all states might be almost identical, like one identity but at different ages. What people call their states (parts of one person, self-states, voices, alters, people, moods, etc.) is just up to them.
It's the same with dissociative amnesia, although that's a different thing. Think of "emotional amnesia" being the base, because of the trauma. DID will always have more amnesia than emotional amnesia. OSDD1 doesn't need to have more than emotional amnesia. So, DID might often be "I can't remember anything about this event", while OSDD1 is usually "I can remember this event, but I don't remember how I feel about it".
You don't need to constantly have blackout switching for DID, by the way. It's a frustrating myth. The ICD explains this better than the DSM. If you have a diagnosis of dissociative amnesia, that fits the amnesia criteria for DID.
What we suggest doing is: well, first, tall to your therapist. We're just a guy on the internet who likes talking about ourself (joke). Please discuss how you're feeling about this with your therapist ❤️
Other than that, make a journal. When we say journal, we don't mean something fancy or detailed. We find it easier to say we're just "logging something". You can even put "I don't want to journal" - that's still journaling. You write one word? Great. You do it once a week? Great. You lose it in your notes app for a month? Great. Do it.
"I feel like this about my friend, but a part of me feels this way instead." "I want to buy muffins, but a part of me wants to buy coffee". "I want a car, but a part of me wants a dog." Does thinking this way mean you have alters? No, it doesn't have to. But, if you have a thought, with your own associated feelings, and then you have a different thought, with its own associated feelings that are separate to yours, then listen to it. Don't try to force them to speak, but give them the space to have a voice. (Also write when you realise you've forgotten something. Think about what you did earlier today. Do you remember choosing and putting on clothes, or do you just know that you got dressed this morning? Do you remember thinking about breakfast, pulling out the breakfast food, making it, and eating it? Or do you just know you had breakfast? Write it down!)
Another thing - parts do exist in PTSD and CPTSD. The parts are associated specifically with the traumatic events, and are closer to dissociation and a set of feelings than an identity. That's fine! Say, your depression is constantly there, right? But are there seemingly unexplainable highs and lows? Do these highs and lows come with anything else, like certain behaviours, thoughts, and amnesia? And do these identity sets reappear? Well........ :P
Wow this was a lot. We meant to keep it simple. In short - the DSM uses annoying language. We recommend this if you're interested, it may be easier. And there's this document here that covers a lot of assessing stuff.
Diagnostic Information for Trauma-Related Dissociation And Complex Dissociative Disorders - By Guardians System This document contains pos
Keep in mind, all of this is our personal views and opinions and experience. Other people will think differently! We've probably missed a few things, and gotten something wrong. But hopefully, all this can help you out a bit. You're more than welcome to send further asks about anything ❤️
greeting, fellow anomalies, i'm Halo, the host of the Containment Failure System! i decided to start posting in here because i kind of wanted to reach out to some community, figured tumblr could be a good choice :D
so, we'll be mainly posting things like opinions/rants, questions, art and memes :p
we're an OSDD-1 (b) system, and i'll let the others introduce themselves later if they want (i don't wanna step on any boundaries or anything ahah)
so, i wanted to start this first post by setting my opinion on non traumagenic systems. so, our opinion is pretty complicated, and it changes from alter to alter, but the most shared opinion is the following:
i don't think 'system' is the right word for endogenic plurality — BUT i absolutely believe endogenic plurals exist. now, before you throw your tomatoes at me, let me explain:
so, for starters, if you consider yourself an endogenic system, i'm not here to fight you. you can interact if you want, i usually don't block but prefer to discuss like logical people. before you say anything, please read until the end.
in short terms, we don't believe all plurals are systems. and i have a very simple explanation.
plurality is an umbrella term. it comes in various forms and shapes. it can be caused by conditions such as BPD, bipolar disorder, PTSD/C-PTSD, neurodivergence and DID/OSDD/CDDs.
after all, as we know for dissociative disorders, we have 3 levels of dissociation, like shown in this chart:
see how there's also BPD and C/PTSD?
so, back on track, the term "system" is made for traumagenic plurals. and i have a good explanation for it too:
let's look at the term "system" for a moment. in CDDs, in which a person goes trough repeated unescapable trauma trough early childhood and past, and based on their brain's ability to dissociate, can split ego states in separate headmates.
the splitting is also, never random, and always serves a purpose, for the system's functioning: a part can hold trauma, a part can have the purpose of communicating, a part can hold the job of soothing during breakdowns.. you get what i mean.
however this specific structure isn't necessarily always present in all forms of plurality. also, for traumagenic systems, they often experience other symptoms such as dissociation, amnesia, distressing experiences with their system, and such.
now, if an 'endogenic' system presents those kind of symptoms and structure? it's likely you ARE traumagenic. now, it is very common that you don't remember your trauma, or don't realize an experience was traumatic.
but if you don't, then i personally wouldn't use the term system for that experience — but i'm not the label police. you do you. i don't want to say endos don't exist or that they are faking for attention, i am not that kind of person. i genuinely want to understand you guys.
if you have anything to say, you can comment, and we discuss like civil people. i am open to discussing this and seeing others opinions.
TL;DR:
i believe plural ≠ always DID/OSDD
system = traumagenic (DID/OSDD specifically)
The dissociation chart doesn't make a lot of sense visually. The three types of dissociation, specifically structural dissociation, are primary, secondary, and tertiary. They're not disorder-based (and specific versions of OSDD-1 don't exist/are not a diagnosis.) You're more likely to see specific types of structural dissociation in some disorders, but a certain level of it isn't exclusive to certain disorders.
Plural ≠ system, and system ≠ plural. (Likewise, traumagenic ≠ CDD, and endogenic ≠ no CDD.) This is (or should be) pretty well known. Both have specific meanings in the context of psychology and multiplicity. The meaning of "system", though, isn't "traumagenic system" - if anything, its use is "personality system", which was then used for CDDs, as well as everything else related.
The Haunted Self,
The APA,
General psychology,
Freud's ID, Ego, and Super-Ego (arguably a theory of multiple selves)
And medical literature around multiplicity,
“The term system is often used to describe a collection of these entities sharing the body. [] There is a diversity of experiences within plurals/systems, such that members of a system may have different gender identities and salience of gender; ages/experience of age; perceived internal appearances; varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts; and complex interrelationships with other system members. [] People who live as plural systems are almost always treated as though this way of living is a pathology. [] Yarbrough observed that many plural systems did not experience distress from the existence of other internal headmates, and recommended shared decision making among headmates when pursuing treatment. [] However, this study adopted a non-pathological approach to plural experience, in order to better understand systems’ authentic experiences."
"These strands of experience are characterized as multiple identities, internal people, self-states, or ‘alters.’ When alters take control of the body, they can be described as ‘fronting,’ and exchange control in a process termed ‘switching’. The term ‘system’ describes the collection of these entities sharing a body, while the term ‘system member’ is a neutral term, equivalent to ‘alter,’ which describes one individual entity within a plural body. Members of a system may have unique experiences of gender and salience of gender, perceived internal appearance, age or experiences of age, varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts. [] The present study uses the term ‘plurality,’ which emerged from the advocacy community of multiples, and recently has been incorporated into the scientific literature. This newer, more inclusive term describes a broad range of pathological and non-pathological multiplicity, denoting those who have more than one person or entity sharing one body as a ‘plural system.’”
“Overall, the term ‘parts’ was viewed as problematic by the participants as it could imply the plural system is not coexisting as a whole. [] Multiplicity has been defined as the experience of having two or more separate selves within one body, with the body’s behaviour being controlled by one-self at any one time. Those who experience multiplicity often refer to themselves as multiples or systems (a system of separate selves). The separate selves within the system, otherwise known as ‘alters’, ‘parts’ or 'headmates’, usually have differing ages, genders, feelings, thoughts and memories. Henceforth, we shall refer to people with DID or multiplicity as ‘systems’ to recognise a more inclusive approach to language for people identifying as multiple. [] The absence of distress experienced by systems identifying as multiple may suggest that DID and multiplicity vary in experience, and the dominance of DID in research highlights a fundamental limitation in the understanding of multiplicity.”
There's a lot more examples! We can provide them if wanted
Essentially, science seems to have finished this argument a long time ago :)
So, I have symptoms of dissociative identity disorder, but the thing is, I didn't end up having any kind of headmates in the process. I practically didn't go through the process of having other identities, and the headmates I have are of a different origin, not traumagenic. So I started wondering if it's possible that the disorder I might have is based on pick the headmates I already had to deal with my problems and traumas, but also, because I didn't go through the process of having headmates, if it's possible to have the other disorder instead of DID, and since I don't know much, I decided to ask someone who has DID to find out for me.
Thank you for explaining further!
A few things you can think about,
There's not really a conscious "process" to traumagenic headmates. It's compartmentalisation, where the brain sections off different pieces so that you stay safe. You don't intentionally do anything, and the headmates can show up at any time in life
Symptoms of CDDs are different from the diagnostic criteria for CDDs - a lot of disorders have similar symptoms, like CPTSD and derealisation/depersonalisation disorder! The criteria for DID are the multiple distinct, intrusive identities, and the dissociative amnesia. The criteria for OSDD is anything similar to that, but doesn't necessarily fit DID itself, like multiple intrusive identities that aren't distinct, or multiple distinct intrusive identities but no dissociative amnesia, or both.
It is common for some folk to create headmates to help deal/cope/live with their trauma and other problems. And your brain doing that unintentionally could definitely happen, too. But though symptoms might be similar, the criteria might not be. Sort of like, there's your brain latching onto headmates to deal with trauma, and then there's your brain causing headmates because of the trauma.
We're not somebody who can tell you what you're experiencing. All we can do is provide suggestions 😄 CPTSD, PTSD, BPD, and a lot of other stuff can cause symptoms similar to CDDs. Depression and anxiety disorders, too. The main difference between any other disorder and CDDs is the headmates. If your headmates aren't traumagenic, or don't seem to be directly related to your CDD symptoms, it could be a good sign that it's another disorder or something else is causing those symptoms. But only you can really say for certain :)
Maybe others can provide better answers than this, lol. We encourage you to read through the full entries for dissociative disorders in the DSM and ICD, if you haven't already. Links below ❤️
ICD-11 Browser contains the ICD-11 (International Classification of Diseases 11th Revision)
The DSM can be a bit much, so if you think you might struggle with it, then we recommend reading the dissociative disorder section in this instead! (Chapter 7, or page 185)
Feel free to send more asks about something if you need to!
Though, holidays for everybody is great. More holidays!
We simply, personally struggle so much planning around them. They're bad for dissociation, bad for amnesia, bad for our autism, and our ADHD.
School holidays/school breaks/days off school were awful. Still struggle to deal with weekends, even. Just about everything here is closed on a weekend, even some of the biggest stores in the country. You would think we would be used to it by now, but no, it still stresses us the hell out.
And, not even going to think about planned events being cancelled. -_-
Hey, I just wanted to warn everyone to block @/stealthyproxysurvivor they are harassing pro and anti-endos. They also are harassing therians. They tell their harassment victims to kill themselves and that alone is just disgusting. Please block this person, report if possible, and stay safe! Your mental health is more important than anything.
This is the only time I will be crossing into anti endo tags because I feel like everyone should know about this person as they have sent sexually harassing material and sui bait two multiple people.
Here is this person's blog, report and move on. Don't stoop to their level of harassment
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Well, here's the thing: is it possible to have OSDDID without process of having headmates, or to take existing headmates and use them to deal with the traumas and stress, or is there some kind of disorder like that?
Hey! We think we know what you're asking, but we're also not 100% sure (reading comprehension is 😅). Are you able to explain further? You're welcome to send another anon ask, and write as much as you need to explain 🫂
my main question about endogenic plurality is the mechanisms behind it. it’s understood dissociation is the mechanism behind DID, but I don’t understand what it is for endogenics. do you have any resources about that?
i personally don't have anything; i would love to hear if anyone else has any resources, opinions, or personal experiences on the subject 👀
Dissociation. Structural dissociation is the mechanism behind the complex dissociative disorders. Structural dissociation and dissociation aren't the same thing :)
Dissociation occurs to varying degrees along a continuum, just like multiplicity. The type of dissociation often referenced in endogenic systems is absorption and depersonalisation. Though, not all endogenic systems necessarily come from a form of dissociation.
A couple pieces that might help,
A theory behind created alters
Creative writing and autonomous identities
Multiple selves
A few different reasons
A bit on absorption
Natural multiplicity in history
More stuff around creation
A less clinical view
And might have a good bit of info
But, two things: Psychology doesn't have an answer for every "why", including in dissociative disorders. And science doesn't care much about "why" if it knows it happens (a good example is the amount of medications that are used without knowing how they work)
"I don't have to show kindness to endogenic systems, they're a hate group!" Then don't expect them to show kindness to you. Personally, I think everyone deserves basic courtesy. And also, don't water down the term "hate group"
This is syscourse. If that makes you uncomfortable, scroll away.
Please do not harass me. I am not harassing anyone.
A few days to a week ago (I lose track of time very easily) I made a post that roughlt read "I talked about endos on stream and everyone was rightfully horrified"
I was then given a google doc with research compiled about endogenic systems.
I find the research scattered, self-contradicting and lacking solid sources. The claim of "no trauma systemhood" is inherently contradicting, because plurality is a neurodivergence, and neurodivergent people suffer in this society. Likewise, even if you are genetically predisposed to develop alters (i am no scientist thus i do not have an opinion in this claim) the splitting of identity during development needs a trigger. You cannot be "born" as a system because babies don't have identities.
What you are doing is gameifying and trivializing systemhood as a Fun Thing anyone can have, picking your favorite parts and discarding the hard parts. And I am right to be angry, because disabled people keep being pushed out of their own spaces by those who think our difficulties are "aesthetic".
Another thing I have been told is that endos do not claim to have CDDs (complex disassociative disorders, aka the ones that cause a split identity), and yet they use terms overlapping and/or synonyms with our disorders.
On the other hand, non-disordered systems can happen if you can manage the symptoms. It is still formed by trauma, you just will stop meeting the diagnostic criteria, but triggers can make your mental health worsen again. Thus, I think diagnosis are not end-all — they are a tool for mental health professionals to help treat and lessen distressing mental health symptoms that negatively affect your life. If you get better and you stop meeting the diagnostic criteria, that does not mean you never had the condition, and again — triggers can make your condition worsen again!! I would hope not, but it can happen! Your past is not erased by your present improvement.
If you feel like you really are a system, you have trauma. Caused directly by, or delayed from the thing(s) that happened, but still trauma. Repeated small traumatic events (C-PTSD) aren't less valid than one big traumatic event (PTSD). And I'm tired of trauma being a competition, and if you don't have "enough" you "aren't valid". By enabling a label that claims multiplicity isn't caused by trauma, you enable roleplaying of disorders.
Before you say anything,
I used to be pro-endogenic, then have changed my mind after seeing the community.
I am undiagnosed currently because of extremely long public psychology wait times (~6 months in between appointments) without the money and resources to find a psychologist who specializes in systems.
I have OSDD-1b, am monoconscious (thus the use of I/Me), with over 30 members and low dissociative barriers.
Comments are open for respectful discussion. Harassment and fallacies (eg. attacking my intelligence or appearance to discredit my points) are not welcome. If you can't keep it respectful, feel free to take a screenshot while cropping out my username to share in your own blog with your own opinions.
Hi! You're (most likely) talking about our document here. Though if you're not, feel free to share the one you are referring to.
Medical & Non-Medical (Endogenic) System Sources By Guardians System, a diagnosed traumagenic DID system with PTSD and CPTSD You’re welcome
As said in the comment, we're a diagnosed traumagenic DID system with PTSD and CPTSD. We've been pro-endo for a number of years now and have been researching endogenic systems for the same amount of time.
We have a couple PDFs of related books we haven't yet uploaded/added in yet, if you want anything more. Feel free to let us know if we miss anything
You're going to have to specify how the sources are "contradicting", "scattered", and "lacking evidence", especially when you have supplied nothing yourself
You're either saying that the trauma needed to cause plurality comes from society making those who are neurodivergent suffer, or that all neurodivergencies are caused by trauma. As well as that every and all type of "suffering" and any other neurodivergent interaction with society is traumatising. You're missing many, many, many important details here, including that plurality not forming from trauma isn't the same as not having trauma at all.
"Neurodivergence" is subjective. "Trauma" is subjective. "Society" is subjective. "Suffering" is subjective. What's true for your experiences isn't going to be true for everyone.
Genetics can play a very, very big part in ones' ability and likeliness to experience dissociation in general. This is quite well-known, especially because of studying dissociative symptoms outside dissociative disorders. It doesn't necessarily play a part in the development of multiplicity, it's just that multiplicity becomes more likely.
If you're referring to the Theory of Structural Dissociation, it's not "splitting of identity." If you aren't an expert in this area, you should be paying attention to those who are experts in this area, such as the authors of the current ToSD. They've said many times over that their definition of structural dissociation is not meant, at all, to apply to dissociative experiences outside of trauma. If you want a more simple reference, some of Kathy Steele's best works are about "trauma-related dissociation" because there's dissociation not related to trauma.
The argument is for the formation of plurality without trauma in general, not whether you can be born plural or not.
The majority of system-related terms, including "system" itself (as used in structural dissociation, by the APA, and throughout clinicial literature), aren't and never have been exclusive to those with CDDs.
“The term system is often used to describe a collection of these entities sharing the body. [] There is a diversity of experiences within plurals/systems, such that members of a system may have different gender identities and salience of gender; ages/experience of age; perceived internal appearances; varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts; and complex interrelationships with other system members. [] People who live as plural systems are almost always treated as though this way of living is a pathology. [] Yarbrough observed that many plural systems did not experience distress from the existence of other internal headmates, and recommended shared decision making among headmates when pursuing treatment. [] However, this study adopted a non-pathological approach to plural experience, in order to better understand systems’ authentic experiences."
"These strands of experience are characterized as multiple identities, internal people, self-states, or ‘alters.’ When alters take control of the body, they can be described as ‘fronting,’ and exchange control in a process termed ‘switching’. The term ‘system’ describes the collection of these entities sharing a body, while the term ‘system member’ is a neutral term, equivalent to ‘alter,’ which describes one individual entity within a plural body. Members of a system may have unique experiences of gender and salience of gender, perceived internal appearance, age or experiences of age, varied beliefs, memories, feelings, and thoughts. [] The present study uses the term ‘plurality,’ which emerged from the advocacy community of multiples, and recently has been incorporated into the scientific literature. This newer, more inclusive term describes a broad range of pathological and non-pathological multiplicity, denoting those who have more than one person or entity sharing one body as a ‘plural system.’”
Internal Family Systems, too. Etc.
Something like "parts" exists all over medical literature. "Alter", though is rarely used by endogenic systems, only stands for "alternate". "Introject" is used even less. Fictive and Factive didn't originate from the system community at all. The terms exclusive to the dissociative disorders, are the dissociative disorders, which they are saying they don't have, so they're not using those terms.
"Split identity" is medically incorrect, even when referring only to structural dissociation itself. Structural Dissociation is based on how the self starts life as separate, and trauma stops it merging/working together. Not that structural dissociation causes somebody to get a split identity.
You aren't being pushed out of spaces. You're seeing spaces you think are yours, and claiming you've been pushed out of them, because you seem to believe that somebody experiencing something similar to a single part of your disability means they're "gameifying" your disorder that they're saying they don't have. This isn't how mental disorders work, nor how they're defined. Nor is it how experts say mental disorders and symptoms work.
"Roleplaying" has a definition that isn't synonymous with "experiencing multiplicity," and there are clear differences between them in medical literature.
Your claims you've made, after saying you've looked at the evidence, contradict what psychology is saying and has been saying, while you haven't provided any sources supporting your argument. (If you have some, we'd be happy to go through them)
From what we can make out of your notes (which aren't accessible, nor easy to read in general - we cannot at all make out what you're saying on Tulpamancy. But it is often considered a type of non-traumagenic plurality, and many endogenic systems occur in the same way tulpamancy does.):
Systems who have gone through recovery and may no longer consider themselves as having a dissociative disorder, are not the same as systems that never had a dissociative disorder to begin with.
A big part of your argument seems to be that dissociation can only exist in disordered forms. Structural dissociation and dissociation itself aren't the same thing. Many, many, many clinicians have said this. Adding "in my opinion" doesn't make your point any less false when science really, really disagrees with you.
Neurostructural brain imaging study of trait dissociation in healthy children - Volume 8 Issue 5
Dissociative Experiences in the General Population A Factor Analysis
PDF | Although previous research has implicated a history of childhood trauma in the development of dissociative tendencies, insufficient co
PDF | This article presents evidence supporting the primacy and ubiquity of dissociation in normal human experience and argues that normativ
To anti-endos who don't want to be debated or warned about tag spamming I present to you the best tag... #anti endo. No person who disagrees with you who isn't a troll is going to go there. It is your perfect echo chamber to vent without people nitpicking your tag usage. A great place to go to find like minded individuals. You don't need multiple tags only one. One single tag that accomplishs everything you could ever dream of at once. It allows you to avoid those nasty (pro)endos telling you what to do and interaction with them at all, it filters your content for those who don't want to see it and it provides you with the perfect place to find those who agree with you. Come on down to the #anti endo tag today and to live your perfect fantasy :)
I don't like tumblr communities, and I never plan to join the Plural one. However, it disturbs me how baseline many of the questions I see from endo systems there are. Many are only answered with "I think I've heard of that," and other uncertainties.
"I don't experience switches," have you looked into PDID systems?
"Is it possible to have sibling alters?" Internal relationships will vary, this is a documented phenomenom. Whether alters simply feel like siblings or are related insys, your internal structure is valid.
"Do you ever forget you're a system only to redo syscovery days/weeks/months/years later?" Yes. We personally have had extensive experience with this, and I'm curious whether it's increased in prevalence with DID's online popularity. Regardless, CDDs are covert, you're not supposed to know you're a system. Denial and forgetting is part of the disorder.
I'm sure there's more examples, and I wish I could inform these confused plurals. A one word answer would suffice, giving them a term to google which might help them understand themselves. But would they listen? Medical terminology (ref PDID vs. median identities) is often rejected by those spheres, and in the end, you've got to do your own research when questioning a disorder.
We're.. confused, how is this an endo system thing?
We see the exact same issues in the trauamgenic communities. The same questions, responded to with the same answers. This is an issue across communities because of how few reliable resources there are available, overall. It's not something limited to the endogenic community, and needs to be brought up in the context of all systems, not ignored to focus on one community.
screenshots i had of a conversation with florality staff.
screenshots are in lightmode as that is what i use but i will include alt text, and even ignoring syscourse i want to point out how rude the staff was the entire time. i encourage you to read over this no matter your stance on syscourse, and make your own opinion on whether you wanna support florality or not.
DO NOT HARASS, INSTEAD BLOCK THEM, AND DO NOT ENGAGE PLEASE, i am posting this for awareness, not as cancel culture, alright? thank you and enjoy
the announcment i saw forwarded in another server, the reason i sent proof in the first place. here for context.
both documents i linked to them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bLejRXsgJ3NRlHQOeXUe3lPtnBJ8qYj3Ope0-8QTRFY/edit?tab=t.0 and https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FetfQO-EeQZcol0bDxG75kHXyPPBPgg4YwlWJOipwwk/edit?gid=0#gid=0
the attached screenshot:
the link mentioned by ark https://did-research.org/did/history/
note the putting down of looking at your system as multiple people, something those WITH cdds commonly do to heal. also, by this logic, then claiming to be multiple people would count as a totally seperate thing than did (being a fragmented state) but they contridict this later
jamie is refering to the first screenshot they attached, the things i linked; https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/27/majority-of-authors-hear-their-characters-speak-finds-study and https://lithub.com/lessons-learned-from-a-year-listening-to-the-fictional-octopus-in-my-head/ (which.. do somewhat prove endogenic plurality, in a specific context)
they seem to agree that multiple people in one head 1. is not what a CDD is and 2. occurs outside of did YET believe being a system/having alters is something only someone with DID or OSDD can do/have. that is a contridiction, no?
link i used: https://did-research.org/did/basics/dsm-5/ (note this is from the same website source ark linked earlier)
note i said i do experience the one criteria that describes HAVING ALTERS which they previously said can only happen with a system. they ignored that completely and instead chose to call me a singlet.
"stop romanticising a disorder." a disorder i had said multiple times i did not have and did not fit any of the criteria of except for one.
so, apparently, despite perfectly fitting the criteria that says you have alternative states, just because i dont have distress, i dont count as having those alternate states. this makes me question how theyd react to DID/OSDD systems who no longer find it distressing, but yk.
another headmate switched in at the last point, because he was a bit mad about being told he wasnt real (same, haha) so you can skip over it as it was over the conversation but you can also keep it in mind for your opinion on us. (name of another headmate censored for my privacy)
asked on the distress part:
ark then said "i dont see where im contridicting myself" and banned me. read and see what you think, i hope you all come up with your own opinions (even if that is thinking im the ass here, because thats equally as fair) but if youre supporting florality just like. keep it in mind
^ my ban message. the "lack thereof" part is quite rude in my opinion.
With all offence intended towards the florality staff speaking here (please don't harass or engage with them), this is by far one of the most stupid arguments we've seen to date -_-
"Hey this blog is a safe space for any and all real systems with a CDD 😁"
.......
"Pro-endos DNI by the way!"
We feel as if we have seen an uptick in these posts/blogs recently. They're in the CDD tags, saying that they're safe for those with a CDD, while simultaneously saying that those with a CDD who have different opinions, are fake.
