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[agentrouka-blog]

Some Jon fans make no sense. He doesn't have Tully blood or any connections to the Arryns, why would the Riverlands and the Vale be in support of him?

You mean as Robb's heir, if the will is brought into play? I agree.

There's a reason Robb never told the Blackfish his idea of legitimizing him and made Edmure the sole Tully witness, because he's less likely to object. People forget that Robb was Hoster Tully's grandson to the Riverlanders. Brynden openly distrusts Jon based on Cat's misgivings. What is Jon to them but the bastard son of their late king's father, a vague insult to House Tully?

The Vale isn't even part of Robb's short-lived kingdom, but the desire to support him was probably more closely tied to his relationship to the Riverlands and to being the trueborn son of Ned Stark, who forged personal relationships in the Vale in his youth. Ned's bastard is a non-entity to them. They don't know this kid.

Given the choice between him and any trueborn Stark, they would at least strongly hesitate before supporting a precedent that subverts the traditional rules of inheritance in a world where stability is the difference between peace and chaos. They have enough simmering resentment in their own region, what with angry second sons like Eon "the Poisoner" Hunter or Lyn "my brother finally has an heir coming I need to chew glass" Corbray. Plus the whole Sweetrobin vs. Harry situation.

It's pretty complicated.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Robb named Jon as heir as he believed his trueborn siblings were either dead, married to the enemy or missing. People need to understand that Robb was the King in the North. North will always be his priority. The declaration of RL's allegiance to KITN was a temporary measure for both N & RL. RL wanted protection & N needed a base & they had the shared goal of defeating the Lannisters. I doubt either of the parties thought that they would continue to be a single kingdom post achieving their goals. Ruling RL from the North is not feasible long-term as they would need to be defended constantly.

I don't understand why people were shocked by the endgame of King Bran. Bran is the natural heir to Robb. He actually is the KITN post Robb but people believe him to be dead. Once he returns, he will automatically be the KITN. So if there is independent North then he will be the King. The North conquering all kingdoms is doubtful to me so him ruling the 7 kingdoms is far fetched. My personal belief is that most of the kingdoms will become independent by the end of the story.

[queenvhagar]

"'Your Grace,' he said, 'you forget. I am a Snow, not a Stark.'

'It's you who are forgetting,' King Stannis replied.

Melisandre put a warm hand on Jon's arm. 'A king can remove the taint of bastardy with a stroke, Lord Snow'" (p. 1059, A Storm of Swords).

Once again, kings can legitimize bastards. Kings must do this as an official decree. They must recognize someone as a bastard and then name them as legitimate. But this is a relatively easy thing that the king can do within his own power.

So when people try to claim that the Strong boys are legitimate because their mother lied and said they were, and the king wouldn't speak the truth... Viserys could have legitimized Rhaenyra's sons at any point in their lives. He could have said these boys are not Laenor Velaryon's, but they are Rhaenyra Targaryens, and the blood of the dragon, and due to Targaryen exceptionalism, I hereby name them as legitimate inheritors. But that is not what he did. His complacency and willful blindness, coupled with Rhaenyra's sense of entitlement and superiority, meant that Viserys would never broach the issue with Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra truly believed herself to be the exception to the rules and perfectly able to avoid the consequences of her actions due to her privilege and position.

Bastards can be legitimized, but since the Strong boys are bastards that were never legitimized, they remain bastards in the eyes of the law and society. One of them is set to inherit the highest of thrones in the realm and the other is set to steal the Velaryon seat of power from the Velaryons. It's wild that the show doesn't seem to acknowledge how much of a big deal this actually is.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Legally the Strong boys are not bastards because both the Targaryen & Velaryon head of house have accepted them as Velaryons since birth. They would be legally bastards if Laenor & Corlys had never accepted them or claimed them to be bastards even afterwards. This is not the case of Cersei cheating baratheons & passing Lannister bastards as heir to the royal baratheon lineage. The inheritance of the Strong boys comes through Rhaenyra & Laenor who both acknowledge them as trueborn sons. Hence there is no talk of legitimisation

[queenvhagar]

Not how it works. Thanks though!

The only way to legitimize bastards is to acknowledge their illegitimate birth and then proclaim them legitimate despite that. Acceptance by Laenor and Corlys means nothing in the eyes of society and the law, unfortunately, due to the feudalist world they live in. If it were our modern world maybe they could get away with that. But it's not!

Even if Ned, head of his house, had accepted Jon as a trueborn son and tried to pass him as such without ever officially legitimizing him, he would still be a bastard. Same goes for any child born outside of marriage in this world, sadly. There is a legal process to change this, and people can use it! Otherwise nothing changes.

So yes they are bastards! And unfortunately nobody did anything to remedy that, so they remain bastards.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

People really don't care about other people's bastards unless they are a problem to their own agenda or they could gain something. In the main asoiaf story, the rumours of Cersei's bastards are all over but hardly anyone cares. Ned cared because Robert was his friend, Stannis cared because the Baratheon line was being usurped, Renly didn't care at all & just wanted to be king when the opportunity rose. The Tyrells have still aligned with Lannisters even when they know the truth. Common people don't care at all. So really unless the existence of bastards threatens your own family's inheritance, the outsiders hardly care. The BF rebellions are a unique case because a lousy Targ king decided to fuck over his family on his death bed by legitimising all his bastards. This should not be used as a standard about every bastard.

In F & B as well, not many people cared about Rhaenyra's bastards & that Rhaenyra was a woman. That is the truth. The show has exaggerated everything to make Rhaenyra the underdog with no support when in reality she was not the underdog. The marriage pact between Rhaenyra & Daemon's kids was made while Laena was still alive & not some last minute political move. Apart from the Hightowers & westerlands & some minor lords, no one supported the Greens full fledgedly. The Reach itself didn't support them, forget about other kingdoms. Rhaenyra had the support of mostly all kingdoms. It is because of dragons itself that the war was devastating.

So please do read the source text yourself as well. Thanks.

[queenvhagar]

"'Your Grace,' he said, 'you forget. I am a Snow, not a Stark.'

'It's you who are forgetting,' King Stannis replied.

Melisandre put a warm hand on Jon's arm. 'A king can remove the taint of bastardy with a stroke, Lord Snow'" (p. 1059, A Storm of Swords).

Once again, kings can legitimize bastards. Kings must do this as an official decree. They must recognize someone as a bastard and then name them as legitimate. But this is a relatively easy thing that the king can do within his own power.

So when people try to claim that the Strong boys are legitimate because their mother lied and said they were, and the king wouldn't speak the truth... Viserys could have legitimized Rhaenyra's sons at any point in their lives. He could have said these boys are not Laenor Velaryon's, but they are Rhaenyra Targaryens, and the blood of the dragon, and due to Targaryen exceptionalism, I hereby name them as legitimate inheritors. But that is not what he did. His complacency and willful blindness, coupled with Rhaenyra's sense of entitlement and superiority, meant that Viserys would never broach the issue with Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra truly believed herself to be the exception to the rules and perfectly able to avoid the consequences of her actions due to her privilege and position.

Bastards can be legitimized, but since the Strong boys are bastards that were never legitimized, they remain bastards in the eyes of the law and society. One of them is set to inherit the highest of thrones in the realm and the other is set to steal the Velaryon seat of power from the Velaryons. It's wild that the show doesn't seem to acknowledge how much of a big deal this actually is.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Legally the Strong boys are not bastards because both the Targaryen & Velaryon head of house have accepted them as Velaryons since birth. They would be legally bastards if Laenor & Corlys had never accepted them or claimed them to be bastards even afterwards. This is not the case of Cersei cheating baratheons & passing Lannister bastards as heir to the royal baratheon lineage. The inheritance of the Strong boys comes through Rhaenyra & Laenor who both acknowledge them as trueborn sons. Hence there is no talk of legitimisation

[agentrouka-blog]

Since I'm on a GRRM critical bend today, the shallow sex positivity is annoying.

I can't tell if it's on purpose or not, but I suspect at least partly not. And it's usually about erasing fatherhood.

Tormund's little speech about how Ygritte will go to a woods witch for moontea if she doesn't want a child, and Jon's out of the equation? Means nothing when Jon's consent is violated and he can't opt out of sex either. He is the one who doesn't want children in this way.

Wildlings having no prejudice toward "bastardy" means little when Tormund's numerous love children seem to be generally raised by the mothers while they are little. That's a LOT of work for one parent to deal with. But yay, no one calls them a whore, so it's all good?

Chataya's speech about how sex work is treated with respect and veneration in the Summer Isles makes me wonder why she chose to practice it in a place where it is treated with contempt. Where's Alayaya's dad, anyway? Absent too? Irrelevant? What?

Kojja Mo's speech to Samwell about sex without shame would mean a lot more if it was coming from Xhondo, the guy, after spending the night caring for Gilly's infant while his girlfriend was having sex with other people to celebrate life. Instead of the other way around. Not exactly a revolutionary image there.

I can't take any free love utopia seriously that doesn't address men doing their share of childcare, or the emotional relevance of fatherhood as a bond as opposed to a patriarchical conflict, or any of the practicalities involved with material support and inheritance. Sexual freedom doesn't exist without sexual responsibility and where pregnancy is concerned it doesn't end with the option of abortion.

[godihatethisfreakingcat]

Thiiiiis. GRRM falls into the trap that so many "shallow sex positive" (as you term it) societies in literature fall into when written by - usually but not always - white guys. In order for true sex positivity in literature to work, given that its readers reside in a patriarchal society where very real concerns about the way that plays out in the real world are often papered over, at least one of these things has to be true:

a. said patriarchal society does not exist, in a way that makes sense in-universe

and/or

b. said patriarchal society and the concerns that it causes are dealt with decisively, again in a way that makes sense in-universe

Additionally, all of these additional things are a must:

c. everyone can say "no" or "yes" with equal ease and for any reason (yes, "I have a headache" is a valid reason)

d. someone who says "no" instead of "yes" is treated with the same respect and lack of derision as someone who says "yes"

e. the physical/mental difficulty inherent in raising even a healthy child without behavioral issues is addressed, and no one who bears a child as the result of societal sex positivity is treated negatively or left without social support

On all counts, GRRM fails.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

I really don't think GRRM intends the readers to take the very biased povs as the absolute truth of the matter. And he criticises most of the so called sex positiveness by depicting the irony of the situation or other character pointing out the flaws in the pov's statement. For example the free folk's custom of stealing girls. Do the free folk women truly believe that a woman who cannot fight off her suitor deserves to have sex with them regardless of her wishes? Jon has a huge hangup about bastards but he seems to be be appalled at the wife stealing custom in the first place. Dorne is supposedly libertine because they have the freedom to have paramours & bastards are treated better. But really is it freedom that people have to settle for being paramours instead of lawful husband & wife due to politics. And bastards may be treated better in Dorne but the trueborn kids are still above them.

[agentrouka-blog]

What character(s) would you have liked George to have included as a POV that made sense for the story?

Irri or Jhiqui late in ADWD after Dany left to augment Barry and Quentyn. And suddenly they turn from "simple, superstitious, loyal" and essentially mindless handmaidens to complex characters with their own opinions, motivations, priorities and judgments, and - this would be crucial - with an explicit eloquence that is denied to them from Dany's POV.

Dany speaks Dothraki as a second language, learned recently, and I can't help but think that the clunky, simplified way we hear them speak through Dany's POV is due to her inability to properly pick up and convey the nuances of their speech.

Either of these two characters suddenly emerging from the obscurity of Dany's inattention, as three-dimensional individuals would be really powerful because it would instantly reveal Dany as lacking true interest in them as people, which is pretty damning in terms of her heroic self-image. Plus, it would finally grant us better insight into Dothraki culture from inside it, giving it a voice and dignity, even if we don't share their values, similarly to the various Greyjoys giving us nuance and detail on Ironborn culture.

I think this would have amplified the impact of Dany's grasslands POV, her self-image contrasting with an outside perspective.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

I think the lack of engaging Essosi characters in Dany's storyline is a deliberate choice made by GRRM. This man is able to write pov of 7yr old boy to 11 yr old girlie girl to hardened men , delusional woman like Cersei to complex women like Catelyn & Brienne. If he is not writing a nuanced character amongst Dany's entourage, it is an indication of the lack of depth in the connection between Dany & her followers.

People go on & on about Dany & Jon having similar storylines but fail to understand that the characters journey is opposing. Jon enters the world of the free folk as a hostage & his relationship with them builds in an upward trajectory with equality being achieved in the end. Dany though married against her will still enters the world of the dothraki as their khaleesi, the highest ranking woman. She begins in a position of superiority & continues to elevate even more above them after the birthing of her dragons. She & her followers never achieve equality. They seem to not have much personality because Dany doesn't see them in that way.

[catofoldstones]

Reading agot chapters of the stark sisters and coming to the conclusion that they hate each other in isolation from their parents’ understanding of them and society’s rigid expectations on them is idiotic as fuck. They are both classic products of their environments, both familial and social, and their feelings of each are heavily informed by these two things. Please take your Sansa and Arya hate each other because they’re antagonists, and are going to come head to head thematically in the later books, and dump it in the trash where it belongs.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

One of the things that Ned & Cat have done right is raising all the children to respect women. Sansa & Arya while opposite in their goals & outwardly contrasting, internally are similar in this regard. Arya admires women warriors, insists that the women's house should also be represented in the apparel of the kids, looks upto her mother & sympathizes with the plight of all kinds of women. Sansa also looks upto her mother, the queen, Margaery, olenna, myranda, mya & sympathizes with the plight of all kinds of women. Robb Stark marries the 1st woman he sleeps with while in grief to save her honour. Jon snow doesn't kill Ygritte because he thinks women are to be protected even when they can defend themselves. He respects women. Bran & Rickon value Osha as their caretaker & respect her. All the kids have never gone out of their way to look down upon women.

[esther-dot]

The different reaction on Sansa-Tyrion marriage by Brienne and Hound shows who is likely to gonna be knight to Sansa. Brienne was horrified by the news and likely believe that Sansa was innocent of killing Joffery. Whereas Sandor think that he should have raped her before her marriage.

Only Brienne is looking for Sansa actively and worried about her wellbeing. Hound didn't care about her after terrorizing her and left her to mercy of Lannisters.

That’s such an important contrast! I haven't read looking for them, but there are many moments that seem like a direct comparison of the two:

"True knights protect the weak." He snorted. "There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different." Sansa backed away from him. "You're awful." (ACOK, Sansa IV)

vs

He could have tried, Brienne thought. He could have died. Old or young, a true knight is sworn to protect those who are weaker than himself, or die in the attempt. (AFFC, Brienne VI)

And this:

Sansa could not bear the sight of him, he frightened her so, yet she had been raised in all the ways of courtesy. A true lady would not notice his face, she told herself. "You rode gallantly today, Ser Sandor," she made herself say. Sandor Clegane snarled at her. "Spare me your empty little compliments, girl … and your ser's. I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight. Did you see him ride today?" (AGOT, Sansa II)

vs

So far he had been true to his word, and Brienne had been true to hers. Podrick had not complained. Every time he raised a new blister on his sword hand, he felt the need to show it to her proudly. He took good care of their horses too. He is still no squire, she reminded herself, but I am no knight, no matter how many times he calls me "ser." She would have sent him on his way, but he had nowhere to go. Besides, though Podrick said he did not know where Sansa Stark had gone, it might be that he knew more than he realized. Some chance remark, half-remembered, might hold the key to Brienne's quest. (AFFC, Brienne III)

They could not be more different! Brienne is really set off well against the backdrop of the total failure of other knights, and her desire to live up to the ideals Sansa cherishes seems like a sign that we’re to recognize that it isn’t the standard, but the failure to meet the standard, that’s the problem.

I've had Hound fans come into my inbox to argue about his intentions and whether he was being honest or not about his intention to rape her, but we all read him hold Sansa against her will on the bed, put a knife to her throat and demand "a song" and Martin uses that euphemism again when Sansa is assaulted again. I think it's pretty clear what that was.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Sansa has been in search of her true knight since the beginning of the story. First she thought it was Joffrey, that ended in disaster. Then she tried to look past the hound's behaviour & accept the crumbs of bare minimum decency shown by him. She thought at the least she was safe with him but that thought shattered when he overpowered her, held a knife to her throat & demanded that she "sing" for him. She lost her trust in him. Same with Ser Dontos. She reluctantly accepted that he maybe a knight who could save her but in the end he turned out to be a lackey of LF who helped her for coin.

My theory is that Sansa would have to save herself from LF. She at least needs to initiate it. She might meet Brienne later based on what happens to her with lady stoneheart. Then she can have Brienne as her true knight.

[lemonhemlock]

The thing I have also noticed about targies is that they not only refuse to engage with the historical precedents of a pseudo medieval world, but they admit that for them the magic is the main appeal for of HOTD/ASOIAF.....which is incredibly bizarre to me because Martin, whether intentionally or not, has thrown the more magical elements of the story to the wayside, in order to focus on the human socio-political drama in both ASOIAF and Fire and Blood. ASOIAF, in general, is very 'low fantasy' there is very little magic, the magic that is there is not thoroughly explained, and the Others, the big bad of the series, has been mentioned approximately three times over five books and 25 years. The magic is essentially a plot device and not even a device that Martin particularly likes to use lmaoo.

Anyway this hyper focus on magic and the inability to see what GRRM is doing with magic - it's not the solution it's the problem - is a big reason the fandom is so....off in their predictions. Like, the dragons are not saviors, there is no prophesied savior, etc.

This is why targies are always harping on how there is no way for Sansa to be QITN or even go back to Winterfell because she lost her 'MaGIcAL ConNeCTioN' when Lady was offed - as if I'm supposed to give a fuck about direwolves or what the fuck 'warging' is lmaooo when there are vastly more interesting human dramas and political plots playing out in the series.

Conversely, this is why King Bran as Martin's endgame is so stupid imo lmao. He's giving a magical solution for a political human drama that he's been setting up for five books and has not done enough to build up the importance of magic in the series. Like, I'm sorry but a seven year old all seeing Tree Wizard Warlock as King of the 7K is an absolutely hilarious endgame and makes all the philosophical discussions about good rulers and leadership a joke.

Bullseye. 🎯

The only caveat I have is that, while I agree with your assertion that ASOIAF is low-fantasy, the magical element does slowly gain in importance and it's fair to say that the characters who ignore the magical threats (the Others, dragons) are categorically in the wrong and will end up paying for it. But it is very, very likely that the end of the series will see Westeros returning to a normal climate and the disappearance of magic once and for all. The man himself is on record saying magic can be a hindrance and part of the problem!

This is my personal theory as to why he is taking so much time to publish The Winds of Winter, not just because he wrote himself into a corner with the Meereenese knot, making it very difficult to get Dany to Westeros in one book. But it's also that the King Bran ending doesn't make any sense. Perhaps that was indeed his original planned ending, perhaps that was indeed what he told D&D all those years ago, but as he likes to consider himself a gardener-type of writer, the garden he tended started to grow beyond his control and now having a CCTV Tree in charge of Westeros at the end of the series directly contradicts the themes he developed for nearly 30 years.

No hate to Bran, who is an OK kid, but everyone else in the series who's become entangled with the magic to that extent has paid dearly for it. We have Beric Dondarrion on page telling us exactly how it takes its toll and he feels himself becoming less human. Bran also commits several other transgressions that would normally have other characters cursed or punished via deus-ex-machina like warging into Hodor and eating jojenpaste (the last is theoretically unconfirmed, but come on).

At the end of the day, he is an immature child who's being used as a pawn by Bloodraven, with little formal training in the ways of being a lord (the bare minimum), no practical experience with leadership, no social skills and no charisma. These are all consequences imposed on him given his status as a fugitive and not his fault by any means or reflective of a lack of inclination, but they are practical realities nonetheless. GRRM has spent so many pages already criticising poor leadership skills and has always punished bad, immoral, incompetent OR naive people in positions of power - how is he going to make an exception out of Bran without negating literally every other POV he's chosen to write? This is a serious problem in the construction of the story.

He's also already been caught with his pants down by the show and saw for himself how nearly everyone either hated or mocked the King Bran endgame. I'm really very curious what was his opinion on that and whether it made him reflect in any way. D&D did indeed make a hodgepodge of the final season, but it's still got to sting to see how the majority of viewers thought it was a completely random choice and a joke ending.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

I am not as attached to the endgame of any of the Starklings (I include Jon in this) being King or Queen. My OTP is Starklings x happiness. Also I am not sure if all them will survive till the end. I personally feel that the magical element in the series is increasing as the series goes on. My theory is that magic will disappear into the ether once the threat of both ice (others) & fire (dragons) is removed. I remember that the weather on planetos would be normalised into proper duration seasons after the long night is dealt with.

King Bran ending will depend on how GRRM executes the story. I don't think we should decide it's quality based on the piss poor execution by D&D. I think GRRM has earned at least our trust as a reader after he has written such nuanced story. I just hope he will be able to complete it.

[esther-dot]

targ stans love book!jon now but will turn on him the moment he thinks dany is kinda weird 😭

Jon looking at the burned remnants of KL,

"Dany did this? What a fucking weirdo" 😂

I just think it would be a shame for all the history between the families to be brushed aside rather than culminating in an interesting way? As in, Aerys murdered Jon's grandad, his uncle, and Rhaegar ran off with Jon's mother only for her to die. In addition to any anger about being lied to about his birth, grief over his mother, the loss is of learning he is not Ned’s son, Jon should feel the full weight of Ned claiming him as his own to protect him -- despite what the Targs did to his family. Shouldn’t Jon then have some feelings about a Targ invading Westeros? Even if his dad was a Targ? It makes it interesting because on the one hand, there’s a unique connection there to allow layers in a confrontation (they’re family!), but on the other, few have greater reason to be opposed.

For Jon "Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three" to have no opinion on a Targ brutally conquering Westeros after Ned tried to get rid of them, well, it would feel like a waste of all that backstory? Also, shouldn’t he have thoughts about Dany specifically after she kills Aegon, after the Dothraki do what she's gonna be incapable of preventing, after the destruction of a city with unimaginable civilian deaths? So not only pre canon puts him on guard, but then what transpires in canon will horrify him?

Even if we take it out of the Targ v Stark context, very early on we learn Ned had to chase Jorah down for being a slaver and Mormont told Jon what a disgrace Jorah was, so Jon got the "Jorah Mormont is a loser" message coming from two father figures. Doesn’t that seem like a deliberate choice by the author? To prime Jon to despise a man he’s written as obsessed with Dany? And of course, there's Tyrion, a Lannister who wanted to hold the North by marrying Jon's little sister who will be with Dany too, so there’s just all sorts of angles to approach a Jon and Dany meeting, none of which bode well.

So much fun stuff to dig into! To ignore it seems like a far less exciting take. But yeah, judging by the reaction to show Jon, I don’t think the fandom will take kindly to his inevitable reaction to Dany.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

I personally think that Jon would be more emotionally impacted by the knowledge that Ned Stark is not his father rather than Lyanna Stark being his mother. Throughout the series he wonders about the identity of his mother but we have not yet seen him having any mother figures. He rather has a tendency to collect father figures.

Jon's entire identity is about living upto Ned Stark & proving that he is still a Stark son through his conduct even though he is a bastard. Realising that he is not actually Ned's son would cast him adrift. He would recognise that Ned sacrificed his honour in order to save him & his respect for him would increase.

I don't understand why people think that Jon would in anyway have a better life if Ned had not kept his identity hidden. Either Bobby B/ Tywin Lannister would have killed him or he would have to elope with Viserys & Dany. Viserys would have got rid of him & abused him worse than he did with Dany irrespective of the fact that he was legitimate or not.

I hardly think that Jon would suddenly have an avalanche of love for the Targaryens just because his sire turns out to be Rhaegar. Jon is the most Northern out of all the Stark kids & would view the Targs through the Northern perspective. Even if R & L loved each other, the disaster that there elopement sparked would depress him more.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

"The Prince That Was Promised" Theory (TPTWP):

I have read the ASOIAF books after watching the show & my personal belief is that Jon will turn out to be TPTWP. I think a lot of people have decided it is obvious & boring because people have been analysing it for more than 20 years now. Also the show spoilt a lot of the characters, their arcs & hence the story. 

My main reason for Jon being TPTWP is because of GRRM's disdain for prophecy & those who go to any length to fulfill it. 

Jon being a contender is obvious to us as the audience because we get to see the story as a whole. But in-universe Jon is nothing special to anyone except his Stark family. He himself has no delusions about being a saviour & tries to do his best to fight against the Others as a member of the NW. 

The Targs tried to make TPTWP happen after a prophecy from the woodswitch & have only managed to doom their own family. Even Rhaegar who had the brilliant idea of conceiving a child with a Stark didn't intend for it being TPTWP. According to him, his son with Elia, Aegon, was TPTWP & Jon was supposed to be Visenya. So destiny went the extra mile to kick his ass by not only killing him, but also killing Aegon & then his child with Lyanna being a boy. Even if Rhaegar had lived & raised Jon as his child, he would never send him to NW if he had believed him to be TPTWP. 

On the contrary, destiny itself placed Jon where he could actively fight against the threat of Others. I think people really don't understand that the Starks do see serving in the NW as an honour. Ned allowed Benjen who was his only brother at the end of the war to join the NW when the Stark had only him & Robb as true Starks remaining. Yes the NW has fallen too much from its glorious days but the Starks do not see it as a penal colony. Even Jon whose initial assumptions about the glory of NW are harshly shattered eventually finds his purpose in the NW. 

I don't know if the Targaryens & their dragons are going to play any significant role in the long night. They may or they may not. But the Starks - Bran & Jon are going to definitely play the most significant roles. Jon is not going to make any sort of play for the iron throne. He is the most Stark out of all the Stark kids. Except for finally knowing the truth of his parentage, I don't think Jon will suddenly turn into a Targaryen. 

[importantwagonpursemonger]

OMG so much discussion is happening about the Daemon- Rhaenyra & Criston- Rhaenyra dynamics after episode 4. A whole lot of analysis & deep interpretation being done on issues like consent, power play & the whole she bang. I think people are doing a lot of extrapolation with current society norms & missing the obvious interpretation of the dynamics.

Daemon I think came with an agenda of taking some kind of petty revenge by causing salacious rumours about Rhaenyra. He knows Otto has spies who report his shenanigans because it was Otto who reported about his "heir for a day" comment made in tavern. We never got to see in which context he said it or even if he did but he knows Otto would definitely be on look out for anything that would fuck up Daemon.

Daemon has genuine affection for Rhaenyra but he is focused on his own revenge. I think he didn't plan on making a sexual conquest of Rhaenyra. He just wanted her to be seen with him in a brothel. He definitely didn't think that he has any sort of romantic interest in her. But I think what happened in the moment at the brothel was a classic example of hunter becoming the hunted. He unexpectedly lost control & in the process found out that maybe he does see Rhaenyra in a romantic light. That is why the abrupt stopping cold & literally running away from his feelings.

I do not think he planned to seduce Rhaenyra & marry her because he knows that his brother would never agree to give his daughter in marriage to a degenerate like him, especially when he is already married. He just asked for it knowing he had zero chance of it ever happening the next day. So his plan somehow boomeranged back on him in an unexpected way ie he learned he had romantic feelings for Rhaenyra.

Rhaenyra herself has a crush on Daemon. She is genuinely attracted to him but I don't think she has any realisation of deeper feelings for him like "love". He left her high & dry so she went looking for someone else to have sex.

Rhaenyra-Criston have now known each other for 4-5 years. They both are attractive people who are attracted to each other but never acted upon it. I don't think Rhaenyra "loves" Criston. She is attracted to him & he is a safe sort of friend for her. So she goes to him to scratch the itch that was caused by Daemon. Criston being a KG has taken the chastity vow & also Rhaenyra is the princess. So he is definitely hesitant to accept her overtures. But he only says stop one time initially.He willingly participates after that. That was the whole point of them showing his removal of armour & clothes for such a long time. He definitely had plenty of time to say no & also a genuine reason of his vow to reject Rhaneyra 's advances without offending her. He doesn't because even he wants her. I don't think he did it under any coercion. He was genuinely nervous about the act & hence his nervous expressions. I mean the guy must have been celibate for a long time so he definitely would be nervous. Also he was feeling guilty about breaking his vow. But Rhaenyra definitely didn't force him in anyway. She was drunk & horny & Criston could have definitely stopped her & escorted her to her rooms. Also frankly Rhaneyra has not been portrayed as someone who abuses her authority. Yes she has a lot of snark against Viserys, her ex-bff turned stepmom Allicent & all the suitors who do not interest her but she has never deliberately plotted against anyone to bring them down. Rhaenyra just lashing out against her father & Allicent is normal behaviour especially in teenage. She is not deliberately plotting against Allicent or her kids. So I don't understand from where this idea of she would stoop to taking revenge against Criston if he rejected her is coming from. She is just a spoiled brat who lashes out by making sarcastic comments. Please tell me if she has done anything nefarious that I may have missed out.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

I am a first time viewer of the series - I have not watched GOT or read any of the books. But I did check out the basic storyline of fire & blood in brief after the 1st epi to get the sense of the source material that the show is based on & anyways it is quite difficult to avoid the spoilers as the source material has been out for a long time.

The entire 3rd epi was focused on the 3 main Targaryens - Viserys, Rhaneyra & Daemon - feeling the emotional impact of distance from each other & grappling with doubts about their worth.

Many people have pointed out correctly that Rhaneyra seems to have lost her political focus & drive in this epi when she was doing so well in 2nd epi. My take on it is that Viserys decision to marry Allicent & both of their betrayal has put her in a tailspin.

During the epi 2 period she knew that Viserys had chosen her as his heir to spurn Daemon as he had no other candidates. But still she was optimistic about being the heir & taking on the role. She offered her opinions to resolve issues be it stepstones or selection of KG member. She asserted herself very well by handling Daemon's situation. She took Rhaneys advice & caution constructively. After returning from Dragonstone, she had what she thought an open honest discussion with her father & Viserys made her feel that they were making his marriage decision together. Apart from Viserys & Allicent she had no other confidants in her home.

Viserys announcing his decision to marry Allicent pulled the rug out from under her feet. She realised that both of the people whom she considered to be her own people were actively deceiving her. All of their talks with her after her mother's death was her being lied to & manipulated. Her relationship with both of them can never be the same because she cannot trust them. Her being an heir relies upon Viserys whim & if he can lie & decieve her about such an important thing , then how can she trust that he would not betray her about being his heir. All her life she had watched him obsess over siring a male heir & now by remarrying for his own personal reason rather than any political reason, she rightly feels that any male child borne from this union would easily take priority over her.

Moreover in this time period she was once again treated as nothing like the heir- none of her opinions matter in the small council. I doubt after the stunt she pulled in Dragonstone Otto would ever let her catch him off guard ever again & must have deliberately kept suppressing her authority. So she has just spiralled into despair with a son being born & it is a fait accompli to her that she will be replaced. Hence her frustration & anger. It is only after she is fighting for her life during the boar attack that she realises that she wants to survive & thrive. She vented out all of her frustration while stabbing the boar & sort of cleansed her mind from the fog of despair. She was ready to become an active player again. On top of that she sighted the white hart which was like some additional blessing that restored her own faith in herself. That is why she was more open to Viserys when they returned to Red Keep.

I am unable to make a decision on Allicent & her intentions even after 3 epis. On the surface it looks like she is being co-operative & just trying to heal the family but the show has yet to give us any scenes where she actually tells what she thinks. From 1st epi I have noticed that she tailors her behaviour according to the people that she is communicating with. She presents herself as dutiful daughter in front of Otto, as a friend that Rhaenyra can rely on in front of her & as being the perfect person who understands Viserys in front of him. As the epis have progressed, I feel that I have not yet seen the real Allicent.

Based on the knowledge about Allicent's character & actions in F& B, I think they are portraying her as someone having maybe borderline personality disorder. If any of you have watched the Johnny Depp -Amber Heard trial, you will understand where I am coming from. A young girl growing up in an abusive environment with a manipulative father eventually turning into a manipulative abusive person themselves. A person with BPD at the start of a relationship will mould themselves into the perfect match to their object of affection & intially everything is great. But due to their abandonment issue they would eventually go into a paranoia phase where they will feel they are being mistreated, slighted even if they are not. They project their own feelings & intentions on the opposite party & strike first with the excuse of defense. This is what I think is going to happen with Allicent.

Right now Allicent is having the time of her life. She has become the queen, her husband loves her, she has given the most coveted son, Viserys is not happy with Rhaneyra. She can afford to be nice to Rhaneyra because she has only gained whereas Rhaneyra has mostly lost during this time period. As soon as she sees Rhaneyra once again taking the centre stage, she will start feeling slighted over things. Maybe she will feel that Viserys favours Rhaneyra over their son when it might not be so. I have no doubt after epi 3 that Viserys loves Rhaneyra the most. The evidence of this preference more than anything would make Allicent jealous of Rhaneyra & that would start into her downward spiral against Rhaneyra.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Itaewon Class: PSRY+ JYS OTP

Hi everyone!! I recently finished watching Itaewon Class series on Netflix. Loved it. So after finishing the series I went through social media for its reviews & reactions & came to know that many people did not like PSRY & JYS pairing. Many people were shipping PSRY & OSA. I totally loved PSRY-JYS pairing. Here are my thoughts about the so called love triangle.

For me PSRY & OSA pairing was dead in the water in epi 2 itself. They had cute moments in epi 1 but after the accident of PSRY father, this relationship also died romantically at least. OSA was not under any pressure to accept help from Jangga Co. Mr. Park had already paid for her college tuition. I know other expenses are there but her initial plan might have anyways been working part time to pay for her expenses. Chairman Jang did not pressurise her in anyway for accepting scholarship or job at Jangga Co. She was no threat to him at any point in the show. But she still accepted it & led a comfortable life working at Jangga even after she knew how they had killed Mr. Park & how PSRY had to go to jail because of them. His entire life was ruined by that family. She still continued to work for them. Life gave her many chances to become a part of PSRY's life as a romantic partner. But she never took that risk. She was content thinking that PSRY continued to “ like” her even though she was actively working with his father’s murderers

I never thought that PSRY was in love with OSA at any point in the story. He had a first crush on her & after he lost his father, he designated OSA as his first love & kept her in that box. She represented hope of a better future for him after he avenges his father. But he was so indifferent to her. He was so emotionally removed from her that her actions against him didn’t even evoke a strong response in him. Being a good person is all well & good, but he showed more passion in his dislike for the Jang family than he ever showed in his so called love for OSA. He mentions that he likes her a few times in the series but never actively pursues her. He never even discusses his personal issues & emotions with her. What she knew about him was what had happened in the earlier part of their acquaintance. Their relationship was stagnant after that. Their relationship dynamics never changed. So I never really bought into his love for OSA. So this leg of the love triangle never had any growth after the initial foundation & remained at the same state.

JYS came into PSRY's life like a storm- all thundering & extreme. She was a functioning high intelligence girl with sociopathic tendencies. She could never empathetic or sympathetic towards others. She reminded me a lot about BBC Sherlock who was also a high functioning intelligent human with no empathy & sympathy. He also said whatever he deduced about a person without thinking about their feelings. JYS is the same. She uses her intelligence to be an influencer & earns a living for herself while still being in school. She is aware of her own genius as well as faults & it never mattered to her how her truth bombs hurt another person. Her 1st interaction with PSRY didn’t leave an impression on her. But her 2nd interaction with him at the police station where she saw him lose his cool against the police & Jang Guen Won left an impression. She became intrigued by him. Then later on the more she spent time with him the more she liked him & fell in love with him. After knowing about his past & goals, she actively started working with him to achieve his goals. She did not expect anything in return from him. She was in love with him & wanted to do everything in her power to bring him success. Even after he rejected her love for him, she didn’t flounce off in hurt & rage. She continued working besides him & still showed her affections to him. She made him feel loved even if didn’t reciprocate her feelings.

JYS antis complain that she was transphobic, racist & a stalker. I do not believe the show depicted her actions in such a light. It is just that they have misinterpreted what was shown onscreen.

Transphobic- She did not care about Hyun Hi’s sexuality personally. But let’s look at the sequence of events for her advise for firing Hyun Hi. Hyun Hi was not making food as per the standards expected from her. JYS recognised this as an issue for DanBam's growth. She made her opinion about this clear to Hyun hi as well. On top of that she discovered Hyun Hi was a transgender. She personally had no issue with it one way or another but it would affect the business if the patrons had come to know because her cooking was not the reason people were coming to the pub. If she was a great cook, then it wouldn’t affect that she was a transgender. But because it was not, her being a transgender was another negative point for the pub’s success. That is why her natural conclusion was to fire Hyun Hi. Also the point that she asked Hyun Hi that why did she not go to a transgender club instead of the normal one was because Hyun Hi herself confidently came out & said she was a transgender. She didn’t try to hide it. So JYS made this catty remark to her not because she was transphobic. She did not show any discrimination against her. So I don’t know where people got the idea that she was transphobic.

Racist- Kim Toni did not look like a Korean from his appearance. He genuinely looked like an African national. His nationality was also from Guinea. Though his father was Korean, Kim Toni was not automatically registered as Korean citizen since he was born in Guinea. His citizenship was not Korean even though biologically he was Korean. Hence when the club security refused to let him enter the club, racially discriminating against him, JYS suggested going to another club instead of fighting with the racist establishment because they could not prove that he was Korean national. She was not being racist. If she was racist, she wouldn’t have hired him at DanBam in the first place itself. So this racist moniker for her is untrue.

Stalkery/Creepy/ Pushy love for PSRY- JYS has a very selfish personality when it comes to her loved ones. Since she does not emotionally connect to people in general, the people with whom she does connect are very important to her. She decided to quit going to university to work besides PSRY because she liked him. She vowed to herself to help him succeed in his life. She believed that she could bring both success & love in his life. She got jealous of OSA as she was introduced to her as love interest of PSRY. But she also knows that they are not together in a relationship. So why should she give up her love for a love relationship that is not even realised. She did not put any obstacles or did not do any scheming against them. She just loved him. She was pushy with him because like a normal person who has a crush on a person she also wanted to know more about him. After learning his past she cried for all the pain he has suffered & worked with him actively to bring down Jangga Co. She got rejected by him but she didn’t turn vengeful against him. She continued to love him & express her love to him constantly so that he knows that he is loved. Some people interpreted this as sexual harassment. I seriously don’t understand this pov as she herself has told PSRY many times that if he is so bothered by her love , he can ask her to leave anytime. She would have seriously left him alone if he had asked her seriously. So I don’t know why people make this an issue against her.

PSRY was not a kid. He was a grown intelligent adult who though idealistic was not weak or a pushover. He was quite ruthless at many points in the story- his insistence that detective should turn himself in so that his father’s accident case be investigated even if it caused his daughter hurt was one such instance. Him pointing out to Director Kang that only she had truly lost everything when their plan to dismiss Chairman Jang from the office was another. He continued with his plan to take down Chairman Jang even though he knew that JGS whom he considered as a brother was not onboard with it. His refusal to give up his revenge plan when OSA pleaded with him to do so. Other instances are also their. If he believed that someone has harmed him or his people he was ready to take action against them. He was even ready to fire JYS when she asked him to fire Jang Guen Soo so that they can stay in the same location & this was at a point in his life when he actually needed her intelligence & expertise to succeed. So if he had such an issue against JYS expressing her love to him even after his refusal, he could have done it since he was already in a successful position in his business life. He had no reason to tolerate her so called harassment. But he didn’t because he didn’t actually mind it even if he said so. He subconsciously liked it. The last person who had expressed love for him was his dad. After his death his life was utterly devoid of love & happiness. It was bitter. He was craving for love & sweetness in his life. That is why he even named his pub as DanBam which he had revealed to JYS in their 3rd meeting itself. He was always connected to her on an emotional level since his outburst at the police station. He instinctively trusted her. Though people saw JYS constantly pushing him to open about himself as some pushy obsessive move by her, PSRY opened up to her on his own. If he did not want to be open with her, he would have refused her. Also he had expectations from her that when she made a mistake he scolded her openly. With others he was cool & calm but with her he was all fire when he asked her to leave after she advised him to fires Jang Guen Soo. Even OSA noticed that he was emotional in his interactions with JYS. She had not seen such passion from him in her own interactions even after almost a decade.

I honestly think he was also very selfish when it came to JYS. He had come to know from JGS that she was working at the pub after ditching going to university but he still didn’t advise her against it. He said to her because he needs her for his business but I think he also needed her in his life emotionally. It did matter to him that she not leave him. When JGW had come to their pub to make a job offer to JYS & Seung koi had expressed his worry about it, the camera had panned to PSRY who was drying the dishes. For a moment his hands had stopped but then he once again resumed. He was definitely worried on a personal level about her leaving. When he had seen her being manhandled by JGW, he had punched him & worried more about her injuries than what she was saying. He was about to pummel JGW but stopped at her one command. Though he was affectionate with his people but I think he was extra affectionate with JYS. He used to praise her extensively if she did some good work, users to pat her hair, even allowed her to use his shoulder to sleep in the bus, side hugged her occasionally. He had immense trust in her that is why he went ahead with the investor plan even if he wanted to initially open other pub’s one by one. I think the audience had come to know enough about him by that time that he always did what he wanted to in his own time without paying heed to another person’s advise. Once he had made his decision he stuck to it. But he changed his decision for her. Even when it was proven to be a wrong decision later on, he didn’t allow JYS to accept the entire blame. He in fact brought her fully into his revenge club after they were able to handle the investor crisis.

PSRY was subconsciously close to her but passed off his gestures with her as those of a brother or business partner. He was oblivious not only to her feelings towards him but of his own self as well. So when she confessed her love for him he was blindsided. He did not go after her himself when in any other case he might have. He went after urging from Hyun Hi. He tried giving her explanation for his refusal- age, business, his so called love OSA, even JGS love for her. But she cut to the chase & asked him point blank whether he even sees a possibility that he might ever reciprocate her feelings, he tells her No & asks her not to like him. Up until that time he consciously never thought of her in romantic light. He had boxed OSA as his true love but was not in a relationship with her. He planned that he would be with her after avenging his father & JYS would be with JGS like a neat package. But this incident shook his dreams foundation. He became aware of JYS in a romantic light. He stopped his affectionate gestures like patting her hair. But you could clearly see a different kind of warmth in his gaze for her.

He continued his denial & worked hard to achieve his goals. He allowed JYS to be by his side even though he could have asked her to quit since he said he didn’t like her expressing her love for him. But he was never going to. He has always been selfish with regards to her even though he was selfless with others. He was just denying his feelings for her after 4-6 years of working together because he truly didn’t think that she would ever be lost to him. Even JGS sarcastically pointed out to him that why was he being selfish & not allowing her to leave him because his business needs her. Even when he knows that his denial hurts her. He was coming to realisation of his feelings for her slowly. That is why he couldn’t get angry at her & ask her to leave, couldn’t give a straight answer when OSA asked him whether he still liked her. Also please note that he knows her drawer password but she also knows his computer password when she was shopping from his computer. Their relationship has developed from strength to strength in the duration since they work together but his relationship with OSA was not only stagnant but actually more distanced after so many years. No wonder he realised his feelings for her when the answer to every love test question was her. So though his realisation was abrupt it was not unanticipated.

Also it was not like he had only JYS & OSA as romantic options. He was a good looking, fit, intelligent & rich businessman. He wouldn’t have any shortage of women if he wanted to date. But he had no desire to do so because he was already emotionally involved with JYS & busy in his revenge plans. But then he had no problem in going down on his knees in front of Chairman Jang when JYS's life was on the line.

The show could have delayed or scrapped the kidnapping plot but it is what it is. But when he talked to his father in limbo he realised that though his life has been a burden, full of hardships but he still wants to live it because JYS makes it worth it for him. He wanted sweetness in his life but he had not realised that she had already dissolved sweetness in his life by loving him through all the obstacles.

So therefore they are my OTP of the show & I was happy that they got their happy ending together.

Now if the OSA fans are going to defend her by saying that oh she was working on her own plan for taking down Jangga then I would say it was too little too late. By the time she did anything against him PSRY did not consider Chairman Jang as a worthy opponent & he would still be facing criminal charges for hiding his criminal son who had abducted JYS & JGS. It was anyways not going to be swept under the rug. So yes, she did help in bringing down Chairman Jang but her revenge also came from a selfish place. She knew that PSRY had dedicated his life to avenge his father’s death & his goal was also same as hers. Still she continued working alone in her own revenge. Where she could have worked together with him, she worked alone when there was no need. I don’t even know if she would have actually resigned in the 1st place if Chairman Jang had not told her how he saw her as a despicable person not even worth as a human to him. He had tamed her like the livestock that he saw her as. I think only after that she made the decision to be a whistle blower. God knows how long she would have wallowed in her own self pity, thinking of herself as a martyr had that conversation & the kidnapping incident not happened. So though I am happy that she got her own revenge & freed herself from Jangga company, I don’t think she would have done it if she has not realised how pathetic she was behaving from Chairman Jang'a pov. So she definitely was not the right person for PSRY. She was too selfish & distant emotionally to ever be the support & sweetness that he was craving for in his life.

Wow. That was a long post. But I had to get my feelings out somehow. Please share your comments if you agree or disagree with me.

[sometimesrosy]

Clarke being in charge is the best thing for everyone. She wants to build a society that is just and safe for her daughter and her people. She wants to set enslaved people free (sanctumites, and even wonkru to a degree were enslaved), and allow murderers, terrorists and thieves (eligius prisoners) to work for their freedom. The girl deserves a master bedroom and house (which she SHARES, without question). The owners of the house murdered her and her mom. Her ego is nil.

Also I wasn't assuming you didn't agree just saying the girl deserves a break. 😂 She's no colonizer (in the way people are accusing her of).

++

I’m with you.

[elora-lane-deactivated20230429]

Reblogging because Rosy the tag you put is legit. And something to think about.

Sometimes I think that people hating female heroes has to do with some sort of deep seeded sexism we are taught- and its cyclical. I've had to examine this for myself.

Something my mom once pointed out to me, when I complained about facing sexism IRL: "Men yell and they are passionate, women yell and they are crazy."

When I asked her what I should do about it she said, "I don't know, sweetie... Just don't shut up."

I'm glad Clarke doesn't shut up.

[sometimesrosy]

#some people believe that a woman as hero in a non feminine genre is wrong and always seem to paint her as crazy or the bad guy

this is the tag you meant I think? But yeah. 

Do you know what happens when women who assert authority don’t shut up? When they try to become president? Or start a movement? Or even just assert themselves in fandom with ideas that don’t follow accepted dogma? 

EVERYONE thinks they’re the bad guys. Unlikeable. Delusional. Crazy. Troublemaker. 

And it is not limited to men doing this. I just want everyone to be aware that internalized misogyny is VERY sneaky.

[absinthe-over-tea]

I can’t for the life of me remember who wrote the post I’m thinking of about this, but yes!!!

So I read this long analysis (that was amazing, btw) about how a lot of people have issues with Clarke and Bellamy because they take on non-traditional gender roles in the story.

Clarke is a very feminine character who plays the traditionally “masculine” role of the hero. She’s the one who’s colder, more detached, logical and pragmatic, putting aside emotions to make decisions, always making the hard choices. She’s the main character and the hero — a role that we’ve low key been conditioned to think should be a man.

Bell, on the other hand, is a very masculine character who plays the traditionally “feminine” role. He’s Clarke’s second. He’s the emotional character, always driven by his relationships with the other characters. He’s the caretaker of the delinquents — a role that we’ve low key been conditioned to think should be a woman.

And a lot of times, that leads to people feeling uncomfortable with Clarke’s choices or Bellamy’s portrayal. They’ll criticize how Clarke is logical and say she’s a bitch, when in reality she’s just a damn good leader who can set aside her feelings to get a job done (a quality most people admire in male heroes). Then they’ll criticize the writers for portraying Bell as “weak” or not giving him the arc he deserves when he’s been one half of the primary duo of the show for 6 going on 7 seasons.

I’ve been prey to it, too, and I’ve had to address those thoughts as they come up over the years of watching the show.

So, to end this long af rant, Clarke is a badass motherfucker who deserves to be labeled as the hero she is. And internalized misogyny is The Worst(TM).

[elora-lane-deactivated20230429]

Agreed @changingthefairy-tale

Truthfully, this show really did challenge my personal bias, that I didn't even know I had. I didn't like Clarke at first, and I had to examine that in myself. The reason why I didn't like her was because I was holding onto threads of old conditioning that told me women couldn't be good leaders.

It's important to learn and grow, I was definitely wrong. And it's a bit wild that a show made me realize it. But I'm glad for that.

[sometimesrosy]

@changingthefairy-tale​ that sounds like one of my metas, or more than one. i’ve been saying that for a while, and it makes me happy to know that people think about these things and it makes them pay attention to their own thought processes and deeply held biases. 

There’s no way to fix this society unless we’re aware of how it’s acting upon us.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Clarke is a good leader. It's just that the Clarke-antis deliberately paint her as the villain instead of the hero that she is. Many of the gripes that they have against her are just not true or are the same as their favourites.

I was not part of the fandom until recently so I did not know that people have such hate against Clarke. Only after following social media regarding t100 & the episode reactions on YT I came to know that such people do exist. Of course Clarke is not a perfect angel so she has made mistakes but her motivations & regrets for the same have been showcased quite brilliantly on screen. But still they do not understand Clarke & her actions.

These antis are able to understand the motivations behind the wrong decisions of other characters in the show- from Octavia, Murphy, Lexa , Echo, I mean anyone apart from Clarke & grant forgiveness to them even though on screen they hardly ever apologize for their mistakes but they do not understand Clarke's perspective & do not forgive her even after explaining her POV & asking for forgiveness from those whom she has wronged.

They say Clarke never apologizes for her mistakes. But she had been the 1 character who has apologised for her mistakes right from the start. As soon as she realises that her decisions have causes harm to people she is the one who always apologizes first, even sometimes when she is not the one who made the mistake. I was pleasantly surprised when Clarke accepted that she was wrong in accusing Murphy of killing Wells in S1 epi 4- The Murphy's law I think was its name. Usually in media, the goody two shoes female characters do not accept the responsibility for their mistakes even after realising. It is usually made into an issue of ego & pride. But Clarke as a character has been so different- she never lets her pride & ego influence her decisions. If she is wrong, she accepts she is wrong & tries to make amendments. She tries to correct her mistakes by actively taking action unlike characters who just say that they were wrong & then do not do anything about it.

The Clarke-antis crucify her for the decisions like killing the MW people, bombing in TonDc, COL fight, stealing the bunker. But they give the credit for the good things that come from these decisions to other people like Monty for MW, Lexa, Raven for defeating Alie in Col, Octavia for allowing Grounders into the bunker when all along it was Clarke's suggestion in the 1st place.

The season 5 debacle is on another level. She genuinely did make the mistake of leaving Bellamy at Octavia's mercy after he let Madi take the flame to overthrow Octavia. But her motivations for the same were not hidden. Even Bellamy knew that he was betraying Clarke's trust & that she will not be able to forgive him. That is why though he was hurt that she left him behind, the hurt was not due to her putting his life in danger but because he thought she did not care for him as before. But once he realised how much she cared for him through Madi, he was able to forgive her easily. Because it was not the act that had hurt him but the thought behind the act. But Clarke was definitely not responsible for the Mc Creary debacle that was Spacekru themselves who put him in position of power. Clarke as usual saved their ass from Mc Creary. That is why I never understood Raven's accusations against Clarke in s6. She balmed her as if she & Shaw were tortured because of Clarke & all Mc Creary devastating rule was Clarke's fault. Raven herself was ready to fly the ship to save Shaw from torture whom she had just met but couldn't understand why Clarke left Bellamy behind in order to protect Madi who is her child whom she has raised for 6 years all alone.

So I have come to the conclusion that these antis are just against Clarke because of their own biases & not due to any actions taken by Clarke herself.

Also interesting point about internalised patriarchy playing a role in the bias against Clarke. I agree with it 100%.

[sixserpents]

Regarding Clarke/Gaia

Ok I feel like I need to say something lmao. Are some of y’all really that concerned about Clarke/Gaia being a thing / endgame? I mean... at most maybe another Niylah situation, but that’s it. Someone to comfort Clarke, maybe? If they even have the time once she realizes Bellamy is gone? But listen. Clarke and Gaia had a big scene, probably more to come. I didn’t mind it. I really enjoyed seeing just more talking between so many characters. How are you, Thank you, Sorry, Etc. It is a huge deal considering how little our characters have bonded the last few seasons. Clarke of all people, could use it. And she could use a friend. I think she sees that potential in Gaia, and it makes sense considering she’s the only other person really actually caring for Madi at the moment besides herself.

I think she sees Gaia as an important person for Madi, as she expressed. Perhaps someone that she trusts Madi to look to if anything happens to Clarke. I think that Gaia has not really had anyone in her life to be emotional and vocal with either, judging from the relationship with her mother. I felt she was taken back by Clarke thanking her and showing appreciation, that she’s not used to it. They are definitely building a friendship there for both characters that each could probably use. And giving Gaia some character development that she could use as well.

But to think this is going to be like, endgame for Clarke out of nowhere is something I don’t think we should be super concerned about. I’m just not??? I mean. Think about everything. Bellarke endgame is a scary will they won’t they, I know, but even that is more likely! Even with Bob being around less this season, if Bellarke was planned all along, they will make it happen regardless, especially Bob and Eliza. It might be smaller amounts of screen time, but we will have something. I think we just need to take a breath, and absorb each episode as they come, and let things play out. Hopefully that helps some? We’ve got a whole season to go yet. ❤️

[travllingbunny]

Why does this fandom think that every potential love interest is endgame? I'm sitting over there laughing over the fact that people think Gaia will be Clarke's big S7 romance out of nowhere - in the season we already know will be largely about Clarke going to the end of universe to find Bellamy.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

Thank you for making this post. My feelings exactly!! The fandoms paranoia is the usual now- nothing new in that. They think any character who gets screen time with Clarke has potential to be her endgame. Any new characters which are to be introduced are seen as potential love interest for Clarke- season 5 it was Diyoza, Shaw, Mc Creary, season 6 it was Josephine, Gabriel even Russell Prime & season 7 it was the prisoners Nikki & some guy called Hatch. Everyone is a love interest for Clarke.

I think the writers have written in Gaia as a friend for Clarke because Clarke's friendship with other spacekru characters is already strained. Raven can't be the confidant right now because of how she has treated Clarke over s6. Their scenes together in the 1st epi also had an air of awkwardness. Murphy actively helped Josephine in return for immortality. Also both of them did not get how Clarke could put Madi above them. So their friendships with Clarke are not to full strength.

Gaia is still largely unexplored as a character except for her job as Flamekeeper. Now her relationship with Indra, Madi are also being explored. Madi is the only common thing between her & Clarke. We know that Clarke would come to know about Bellamy's disappearance by the end of epi 4. So only 3 more epis are their for their interactions.

I don't think once Clarke learns about Bellamy that she will be staying in Sanctum to resolve their issues. She is going to start her rescue mission as soon as she can. Events in epi 1 happened in 1 single day which was the same day as the last season day. Bellamy has been absent for hardly 1 day. His absence will be noted by the next day for sure. I think epi 2-4 will take place the next entire day by the end of which they will come to know about Bellamy's disappearance into anomaly.

Clarke will not be taking Madi along with her planet hopping. So Madi will need to stay in Sanctum. Gaia is the perfect candidate whom Clarke can trust with Madi. That is the reason I think Clarke- Gaia interactions are being shown now. I for one do not think they are being developed as endgame.

I am confident that Bellarke is the endgame. So I am enjoying the Clarke-Gaia interactions. Also Gaia doesn't see Clarke as a separate individual from Wanheda. You could see that in the scene where they were going through Madi's drawings. Gaia had a fangirl reaction that she was upset that she could not see Wanheda bowing down to her revered Heda. So I don't think there is any chance for them as romantic endgame.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

The 100 Season 7: The Absence of Bellamy Blake (Bob Morley) and the Fandom Outrage

Hi everyone!!!! This is a recent t100 fan. I was going to ignore this topic but seeing the fandoms negative reaction on social media has compelled me to write something positive for my own sanity.

The release of t100 season 7 trailer & Bellamy’s glaring absence in it raised the obvious question of “Where is Bellamy Blake?”. The audience was blindsided as the question at the end of season 6 was “Where has Octavia disappeared?”

So, the fandom reaction of Bellamy’s role in the season was expected. We as the audience only had access to the trailer & whom we did not see in the trailer led to a lot of speculation & outrage. Then came the poster in which once again Bellamy was absent. This finally revealed that along with the anomaly, the main mystery was going to be Bellamy’s storyline. Then came the countdown pictures from which once again Bellamy was missing. This really catapulted the fandom on social media to vent their anger for all the so-called erasure of Bellamy Blake (Bob Morley) from the last season of the show.

Truly speaking I recognized this as a promotional strategy. The strategy is to raise the one obvious question of “Where is Bellamy Blake?”. I do not believe the content creators are so stupid that they did not realize what they were doing. By doing all these shenanigans they wanted the attention from the fandom- be it negative or positive. From the last season reviews & reactions, the creators & network would have seen that though the anomaly intrigued the fans, there was no sustainable hype regarding it & they also did not want to give any spoilers about the main plot. So, they devised the strategy of making it all about one of the fan favorite characters of the show- Bellamy Blake. His glaring absence from the promotional material got the attention of the fans, negative, but still. The tags of “Where is Bellamy Blake?”, “t100” & “Bob Morley” trended on Twitter. They managed to get the show trending even if the reaction was negative. This is PR strategy as old as time.

I do not believe the fandom speculation that the absence of Bellamy is due to some ongoing feud between Bob Morley & the show creator Jason Rothenberg. None of the fandom knows them personally & has inside information to jump to such conclusions. Both these people have a professional commitment to the show. We do not know them personally. Supporting your favorites is not a wrong thing but do not jump to their defense over what you have perceived as a slight against them. Do not make them a “victim” when you do not know the true story. Bob Morley is not a newbie in the industry. He is not a child. He has worked in the industry long enough to take a stand for himself. He is strong enough to be open about his mental health struggles & to be an inspiration for other people. He has not been quiet when he has felt slighted before. He has withstood all the hate he has received from L/C*exa fandom. So why would he keep quiet if he is “deliberately being side lined or erased” as per fandom.

Bob & JR might not be friends, but they are colleagues who are working together & may work together again in the future. If they had such bad blood between them then I do not think JR would have allowed Bob to direct an episode of the show in both season 6 & 7. JR might be arrogant & a troll, but he loves the characters & the world he has created himself. He loves Bellamy Blake & I do feel he has a great storyline for Bellamy in season 7. That is why he is confident in invoking the fandom’s wrath by using Bellamy’s absence as a promotional strategy.

Yesterday in his interview he informed that Bob himself wanted time off after season 6. That is why his storyline was written in such a way that he may be absent from the show in the initial episodes. Fandom is once again up in arms saying that he is lying. There is no reason for JR to lie about this- Bob Morley is still a part of the show & can refute this statement which is regarding his personal choice at any moment if it is not true. I also believe this because JR has previously accommodated storyline due to actor’s personal situation. Charmaine Diyoza actor found out about her pregnancy after being selected to play the role, but JR incorporated her pregnancy in the story. He has made concessions for the Bob himself in season 6 when he was suffering from leg injury. His injury was written into the story & many of his action sequences were reduced so that he was able to shoot. He did not take him out of the story then. So why would he do so now.

Also, the timeline matches for when Bob was suffering from his leg injury. He had injured himself before the season 6 went into production but kept shooting due to professional commitment. Such injuries are serious & affect the physical & mental well being of a person. So, by the end of season 6 shoot he would have been exhausted & asked for the necessary time off. JR once again incorporated Bob’s need for time off by making Bellamy disappear into the anomaly in the early part of the season. This would allow Bob to have a necessary break & JR could make the season about the rest of the team searching for him as Bellamy is a central character on the show who is connected on good terms with all the major characters. A show production requires quite a lot of pre-production which involves story writing. A show such has t100 which is a sci-fi show has even less margin for wasting resources as most of the budget would go into CGI, special effects. So, changing the storyline on the creator’s whim is rarely done unless the show is the channels flagship- which to be honest t100 is not.

The fandom is using any damn excuse to burn JR at the stake now as they believe he has gaslighted & trolled them. But this venting of rage against him is really an extreme reaction. Even after JR has said that Bob himself requested for a time-off they refuse to believe him. I think this is mostly because they still want to defend their initial extreme outrage that they had on him. They do not want to admit that their over reaction was wrong. Hence, they are continuing their narrative of JR is the villain & Bob is the victim. They can still believe what they want as it is their personal opinion but please do not call out people who do not share their opinion. Do not belittle others for wanting to enjoy the show. Do not rage against them for being positive about the show. Do not force others to stop watching the show live on TV. Live & let live.

[importantwagonpursemonger]

The 100 season 7 Fandom Panic Attacks

Hi everyone! I am a recent t100 fan after binge watching all 6 seasons in 1 go. I am really excited for season 7 & the conclusion of the story.

I have been following the social media now to keep on top of the show news. This means to follow discussions, speculations & reactions. This has revealed one thing to me. Thank god I wasn't a part of the fandom since the start!!!

The fandom gets in a tizzy over each & every non consequential thing. The leaps that they make in speculations is so high, it's literally in the anomaly! Every one can make predictions & speculate on the storyline but at least have a solid reason for flying off the handle.

Clarke & Bellamy are my two absolute favourite charactersin the show & I am definitely a Bellarke shipper. But please can the fandom use their intelligence before crying about anything & everything.

Bellamy new scenes are not in trailer- Bellamy is dead.

No Bellarke scenes- no Bellarke endgame

Clarke angry scenes- Clarke is acting like Mad queen

Clarke- Gaia scenes- Romantic interest

What the hell & today people are panicking over Tasya's countdown pic that since her lower half is hidden, echo is pregnant!!!

The 1st 4 episode reviews hinting that Bellamy's storyline is about saving Octavia & Bellarke not being together in the 4 episodes- Oh no! Same old Blake sibling shit, same old Bellamy running behind Octavia. Bellarke won't be together romantically since not enough time together....

This is such bullshit.

I don't know what everyone's relationship is like with their siblings but think logically. If your sibling who has been the center of your world since birth, about whom you are protective & deeply care for, with whom you are not on good terms currently, gets stabbed & disappears from right within your arms, won't you be upset? Won't you try & do everything possible to find them? Then why is Bellamy not allowed the same courtesy? He should what- go about his merry way after losing his sister?

Second point regarding Bellarke that Bellarke won't get enough time to be together romantically. Aren't people following the story for 6 seasons. Bellamy & Clarke relationship has been developed since season 1 to 6. Even if they get together in the second half of the 7 th season, it would make sense & I trust the writers who have definitely broght their relationship to the brink of undeniable romance last season, to make their romance organic.

Also I don't think the number of episodes they stay together in one place matters. The writers have developed their relationship as the one which is transcending distance & time. Here is the breakdown of how many episodes were they actually together for each season:

S1: 11 out of 13. 1 epi they spent apart & in the 1st epi they met each for 1st time.

S2: 5 out of 16. 11 epis they spent apart & in 5 epis they were just communicating over radio.

S3: 6 out of 16. 10 epis they spent apart & in 3 epis they had 1 brief scene.

S4: 8 out of 13. 4 epis they spent apart & in 1 epi they had 1 brief scene.

S5: 6 out of 13. 5 epis they spent apart & in 2 epis they had 1 brief scene.

S6: 7 out of 13. 4 epis they spent apart & in 2 epis they had scenes via Josephine-Clarke.

So apart from S1 they have been together in the story plotline for only half or less than half the season. Still we have got such great development in their relationship. So why so much panic if they are not in same frame for half of the season 7? We do know for sure that Clarke would be going to the anomaly to get back Bellamy & Octavia, so Bellamy will be on her mind for all the beginning epis as well. Bellamy also might think about Clarke in those epis if he is in those epis for major time. If he himself is not in any scenes except for initially entering anomaly, then we might be getting less Bellamy in the 1st 4 epis but 12 more episodes are still pending.

So just chill, speculate & rewatch t100 episodes until we get the episodes & understand the story plotlines after initial episodes. This unnecessary panic & crying over no reason before the episodes even air is just off putting. Enjoy yourself & let others also enjoy!!!!