It's interesting that Madara never wished to resurrect his loved ones contrary to Obito. It seems that Izuna's death but more precisely the valley of the end’s defeat marked for him a definitive rupture with "this world". He was not interested anymore about his own desires. If you think about it, he was not supposed to be part of this collective dream that could have longed an eternity from the perception of those inside the dream. If everything had gone according to his plan, he would be just there alone watching people slowly dying in their cocoons.
Actually, I’ve realized recently that from my western perspective, I didn't pay attention to the Buddhist cultural aspect and in some instances the hindu cosmology. There is between both religions cultural bridges that we can't really see in the West shaped in judeo-christian background but from an asian/japanese audience it's implicit. In hinduism there is this idea that the material world is but a creative dream from the imagination of a god. He manifests himself in a sort of trinity:
Brahma the creator
Vishnu the protector
Shiva the destroyer (in order to recreate a new world) and note that Shiva is also associated as the Lord of dance. Shiva Nataraja destroys the cosmos, each steps is creating movement in the dissolution of the universe. It's a doomsdays to end a cycle and allow a new one to be born.
Shiva Nataraja, Lord of dance and destruction
Madara's plan is a way to attain this godhood state, to annihilate the world and recreate it again. We first met him during the apex of the 4th shinobi war, impersonating in a way Shiva, he destroyed the current shinobi world. From his perspective it's a failed world, or should I say a dream who turned into a nightmare, created by another god Hagoromo and perpetuated by his spiritual heirs Hashirama/Naruto. Obito in creating the Akatsuki and collecting the Bijuus, was incarnating one of Shiva's steps. He was preparing the dissolution of the world by perverting the shinobi system and hastening the apparition of the true "Shiva".
Madara’s Brahma phase can be paralleled with him being the second Sage Rikudou and having access to all the chakra on Earth and opening his third eye which represents in hinduism and buddhism the invisible one who brings mystical illumination and visions in the realm of high consciousness. If his plan would have succeeded he would have been a type of Vishnu protecting the new world. Alone, but keeping safe humanity inside his dream.
And as odditiesinnaruto said, time in a dream can be infinite. If Izumi was able to have a whole life with Itachi and "dying old", Madara must have been capable of putting someone in a dream where they exist and continue their life through their imaginary descendants for generations and generations, for centuries and millions of years which represents few seconds in real life. He would have literally created a Madaraverse inside the zombified Narutoverse (it sounds really like the movie Inception). And in his dream, somewhere the Uchiha clan and the whole world will "exist" in peace forever. It gives me vertigo!
Its been a while... but looking deeper, Matarajin is also said to originate/conflated with Mahakala, which is said to be the form Lord Shiva takes when about to destory/reset universe. God of time, maya/illusion, creation and destruction, and power. Has a fierce/firey depiction with three eyes, multiple arms.
Sidenote: Mahakala is also the origin of 大黒天/Daikokuten, one of the 7 lucky Gods. God of wealth, farming, food. Often depicted as a happy older man with a mallet on some bales of rice.
The Creation of the Uchiha outcaste-order: the significance in their relocation and duty within the KPD framework (Pt.1)
Assigning the Uchiha to police the village (and by extension having them superintend both the prison system and KMPF), isn't the concession the pro Tobirama crowd would make it out to be.
I've taken the liberty of selecting a few iconic phrases used in certain bloggers' metas, and tweaking them here and there:
In an effort to reduce the distance between the community and the Uchiha, Tobirama gave them control of the police force.
When Uchiha supporters attempt to attribute Tpbirama's role in the Uchiha being arrogant and bad cops, you know they are illiterate.. As if it's Tobirama's responsibility to instill moral character in them!
No amount of discourse can make the law enforcement / KPD some malicious scheme to oppress them (the Uchiha) since it is an intrinsically strong position in every community.
The Uchiha were haughty, dishonest police. Let the police take responsibility. Even Orochimaru could see that the Uchiha were dishonest and corrupt.
I detest this conviction that Tobirama's establishment of the Konoha Police Force and having placed the Uchiha in charge of its supervision was some brave and peaceful endeavour, as if it were the epitome of the wise leader's deeds, because it's fundamentally flawed - at a conceptual level, it's quite simple to debunk Tobirama's ostensible moral superiority in this, but this isn't what I'm endeavouring in this specific part 1 meta; rather, I'd like to tackle the matter by piecing together a series of historical notions that serve as parallels to the Narutoverse.
I've already spoken amply of my interpretation of Tobirama's character and how his actions profoundly reflect the Fascist ideology here, here and here, just in case it slipped anyone's attention — Konoha is far from representing a just system and as it lacks the basic attributes of what it means to be "good", which can be interpreted in various ways, the most striking being that it's just a better-oiled war-machine as opposed to the feuding clan system. And that's Tobirama's doing, mind you.
So what exactly occurred with the Uchiha and how were they rendered an outcaste-order?
Now, there's a fascinating significance in the notion that the Uchiha were forcefully stationed at the margins of the village, in proximity of the Leaf's prison, as stated by Orochimaru (a notion partially confirmed by Obito, though his testimony is a little fickle):
Kishimoto was truly brilliant in the ways in which he mapped out striking parallels between the Universe he created and shinto and buddhist mythos - And It's no secret that Kishimoto drew much of his inspiration directly from medieval Japanese history: exaltation of Bushido code of honour practices, heavy references to the Edo period, to the Meiji restoration, and so on and so forth... And this is where another fascinating theme correlates to the Narutoverse and specifically the Uchiha.
I'd like to thank @komehyappyou for providing wonderful information and giving me the input to write this short meta!
Introduction
Throughout its history, Japanese culture has stigmatised particular groups of persons or professions as "defiled," or as being below the majority and removed from society. Groups that have been labeled as "polluted" or "base" have done so in accordance with a variety of overlapping, historically varied, though occasionally contradicting criteria — However, one particular cause of marginalisation is indisputable: prejudice was formalised and supported by governmental power, creating inflexible, caste-like classifications.
So instead of focusing on hygiene, purported binary structures in the "Japanese mind," or the eternal truths of Buddhist or Shinto doctrine, one must first examine historically evolving political, economic, and sociocultural forces in order to understand why some people were labeled as vile, contaminated, outside of society, or even "nonhuman."
Kawaramono, Kawata and Eta : discriminants and descriminative epiteths
One particular classification struck me: the "riverbed person(s)" (kawaramono or kawara no mono, who were mainly distinguished as leather artisans), constitutes a genre of discriminated people, frequently seen in medieval texts, notably during the Muromachi period; Kawata people, similarly, can be classified as a kawaramono subgroup.
And while this may be a conceptual forcing of interpretations, done by yours truly, I do think it's quite uncanny that Madara and Hashirama's first encounter would occur by... a river:
Eta/Kawata people were frequently associated with hunting, and, by extension, falconry - and in fact, because of the syncretic religious ideas that developed during these times, killing an animal was connected with ritual impurity, therefor guilds that relied on it for their livelihoods were socially and physically segregated from "legitimate" society. Eta was hence the name given to such outcasts.
In medieval writings, "kawaramono" and "hinin" (another marginalised group that loosely translates to "nonhuman") were not always legally, politically, or ideologically distinct from people who lived in "sanjo" ("scattered" or marginal areas) or from a number of other types whose names vary depending on the era and local customs —The term "eta" (sometimes [y]etta, or enta), which was frequently written with the characters "much pollution," especially after the fifteenth century, and which served as a particularly insulting epithet applied primarily to "kawaramono," suggests that at least some outcasts were subject to gradually increasing levels of discrimination.
Relocation
Economic factors during the late medieval period also contributed to their unfair treatment; tanners and leather artisans (specifically Kawata) had been in high demand by military houses during the lengthy civil wars.
Furthermore, influential warlords and powerful Buddhist temples attempted to ensure a constant supply of leather goods for their armies beginning in the sixteenth century at the latest by giving monopoly rights and privileges to leather makers and leather artists.
However, these obligations and benefits distinguished the kawata from the general populace, who were already frequently associated with discriminatory sorts of kawaramono due to their line of work.
Differences between 'kawata' and "majority society" were fortified when they were relocated to the outskirts of town, where they could more easily be delimited, measured and exploited.
During the Edo period, those who resided on the periphery of a community, in proximity of the prison system, became in fact known as Eta 穢多 (impure) or 非人 "nonhuman".
Kawata as prison guards and executioners
This is the most striking correlation of them all: Kawata were forced to work as executioners or prison guards, which further deepened the rift that separated them from the common majority.
"Majority society," which had for centuries been fed on Buddhist notions regarding the sinfulness of butchering, Shinto taboos on death and pollution, and political ideologies in which the supposed "purity" of the imperial house was used to support the authority of military regimes, was only too happy to relegate the kawata to a position of subordination.
Many of the official tasks of kawata/eta came to be associated with prehistoric ideas of "pollution," such as skinning and disposing of dead animals, executing prisoners, maintaining the bakufu jail secure and clean, working at the two tame, transporting prisoners, capturing illegal beggars, tattooing prisoners, and parading them through town.
The following screenshot is from a conversation with @komehyappyo:
Kawata/eta were hence attributed the role of "unclean work" by the shogunate in order to divert resentment away from the government and towards them instead, as they were also known as "dogs of the government" (a historical phrase for low level police personnel who patrol, apprehend criminals, prison guards, and execute executions).
Surely, surely, just about anyone can see the similitudes to the Uchiha, through this comparison? The Uchiha serve as a stand-in metaphor of the marginalised Kawata/Eta groups, ethnicities that suffered severe forms of ostracisation well into modern times!
I hope this debunks the assumption that the Uchiha, despite having been assigned to a function that exerted authority, didn't possess any authority at all: it was all just a ruse, an artifice to have them confined in an exploitable role, one that was subject to constant surveillance and curtailing as they were quite literally considered impure (CoH anyone?)
What this means is that, yes, societal schisms are often relevant, but such divisions aren't a sufficient condition to become precursors of genocide - State action is always essential in transforming ingrained beliefs about group dominance or differences into systematic butchery of an ethnic group of people.
To add, Hashirama meets Madara specifically in 河原kawara/riverbed, making reference to 賽の河原sainokawara.
In databooks tonosho307, it says that the Uchiha lived in the basin of the Nakano river and that Nakano shrine is specifically Uchiha clan's ujigami shrine...uhhh... later topic for another day: history of ujigami shrines and how shinto is practiced... things like 人生儀礼jinseigirei/ coming of age rituals, 祭matsuri, like spring/autumn, jichinsai, Meiji period changes which ended up destroying many shrines/temples.
I want make some additions, clarifications, etc. The connections/links make me uncomfortable given story context. This is a rather taboo topic, but I feel as though I should try to talk about it more.
About "Impurity"
穢れkegare/"Impurity, dirty, immoral, disgust, pollution, etc" more prominent belief in the past but still deep rooted today.
Death, bleeding, childbirth, crime, natural disasters, disease/disability, changes in normal affairs, or unexplained powers/strength, etc can be sources of kegare.
kegare spreads-> If one comes in contact/touch with source or "dirty" person, they become "dirty", causes bad things/luck, disease, etc causes seperation, isolation, fear, discrimination.
Slight differences of "impurity" in Shinto/Buddhism.
In shinto, death/deep sadness causes "dirtiness", but in buddhism not. ex. discouraged visit shrines after death of close family but visit temples is fine.
In shinto there are rituals, misogi, harae to purify kagare, but in buddhism, kagare can be permanent/"innate" to person due to karma/reincarnation beliefs and thus "inherited", -actions in previous life determined current life. wikilink
As such, in the past, people with certain jobs or even lived near sites where the jobs took place, such as animals, leather workers, corpse disposal, ritual purifiers, and others like beggars, people with diseases, former criminals, performers, etc were made to live in separate "branch" villages, often near rivers, in the outskirts/corners/margins from the rest of the village.
Various names were given to these peoples, kawaramono/riverbed person, kiyome(清めpurification and sometimes written with kanji of 清目"pure/bright eyes") But 穢多eta- same kanji kegare, 多ta/"a lot/much" and hinin, became to be commonly used by the public/govt. Today, they are taboo/not to be used terms outside of historical discussions.
Edo Period Hereditary Class System
During Warring States Period(1467-1568), since there were competing regions/more differences, hard to keep track etc, jobs/position was not always inherited.
But after the Unification of Japan, during the Edo period(1603–1867), the shoganate established a hereditary class system of Samurai, Farmers, Townspeople,artisans, merchants, and solidified a group considered "dirty" due to hereditary reasons commonly called Eta-Hinin and all groups were made to live in assigned areas. I think I missused 'ethnic', not a separate ethnicity, it's more like caste, but I was meaning to place empasis on hereditary.
linkpicture Left side with Edo period class hierarchy of Samurai-> Farmers->Craftsmens->merchants-> Eta/Hinin at the bottom, is a commonly taught misconception, which causes issues.
The right side is more accurate, depicts Eta/Hinin under the direct control of the ruling class as a separate class system from the farmers, merchants, artisans, who had their internal hierarchies.
Eta/Hinin were assigned 刑警吏役 historical term for police role, performing duties such as capturing criminals, guarding prisons, information gathering, patrolling/keeping the peace, executions. Today, police work is divided into different branches, but in the past this was often performed by the same people.
The govt. assigned role to Eta/Hinin direct the anger of the common people towards them rather than the govt. Executions, interacting with criminals, were considered "dirty" tasks. prisons/execution grounds were built near their communities on the outskirts. Today, when visiting communities around old prisons/exe grounds, can still be seen.
Meiji era policies ended the hereditary class system and attempted to equalize, but it was only on paper. It didn't not fix the deep rooted beliefs or the discrimination faced which lasted years after. Descendants came to be called discriminated buraku people.
There's been progress/fading yet still persists esp. in rural areas, older generations. But, oftentimes since the topic is "taboo" people simply don't discuss it and hide their family history from others if they know.
tailed beast real names/appearance mostly draw from creatures from Chinese/Japanese Myths. Not really unified. Abilities somewhat, mostly connected to myth creature, or name. Just some additions.
2. Matatabi's name the word for Actinidia polygama. Japanese version of catnip, appearance based off two-tailed cat yokai connected to fire.
5. 穆王Kokuo, names/horse inspired by from the Zhou dynasty King Mu's mythical 8 horses, faster than birds, can walk on clouds, etc. But appearance is reminiscent of horned water dragon horse, kirin with face of dolphin instead.
5. 双睛/alias重明 Name is "intense brightness" Chomei's name is based off a chinese myth creature chicken with Phoenix like attributes, and two pupils in each eye, I don't know eng name. Known to have ability to fly without feathers. so like a bug, right? (laughs)
Relating to Gedo Mazo, the Sealing Technique: Phantom Dragons Nine Consuming Seals: maybe based off of Kuzuryuu, 9 headed dragon in various myths, connected to rain, in some myths was offered human sacrifices, before being changed to protector, etc.
金剛杵kongousho/vajra, an important buddhist symbol. 金剛 is hardest material, diamond, indestructible.
Indra, his rivals, Asura, and his weapon Vajra
Indra/Asura/Vajra are a bit different in Hinduism vs jp, mainly esoteric, Buddhism... So i want to learn, write, discuss.
Obviously, Religions, esp Hinduism, very diverse(diff groups/sects/regions say diff things, across diff time periods), this is general/simplified idea. if want correct/add.
Hinduism
Indra, said to be "title", rather than "name", king of Svarga, king of devas, associated with rain/storms. Known to wield Vajra, unstoppable, indestructible thunderbolt to vanquish evil spirits/sinners. A legend says that Indra has 1000 eyes, which used to be ?????? which he was cursed with due to his lust for women.
A legend says that Indra's Vajra originated a spinal column of Sage Dhadhichi, bones blessed by Lord Shiva earlier, who offered it, sacrificing himself, to help Indra defeat a powerful asura, Vritra.
Devas are rivals of Asuras, which are sometimes demonlike, power hungry, associated with drought/famine. Indra killing Vritra symbolizes drought/rain cycle.
Param Vir Chakra, designed by Savitribai Khanolkar, India's highest military medal has Indra's Vajra, symbolizing Sage Dhadhichi's great, selfless sacrifice.
Random:
In Hindi indradhanush-> Indra's bow, rainbow.
eng/hindi, look/sound different but think similar. rain, indra(rain/storms god) + bow(weapon) =rainbow.
indo-european heritage? There's also many other languages of India. I wonder how common "rain/god+ bow" is?
jp/chinese, 虹niji/rainbow = 虫/creature + 工/strike because think as living dragon/snake which ran through the sky. So 虹"male" and 蜺/霓"female" rainbows, top/dimmer one in double rainbow. Unsure about the kunyomi(native japanese pronunciation, not chinese) origin though.
Japanese Buddhism
三十三間堂sanjuusangendo/33 forms hall, in Kyoto, has famous 28 group of statues/gods who are protectors of main idol, SenjuKannon considered servants/protectors of Buddhist Teachings. link.
大梵天daibonten/Brahman, In Hinduism more like concept of ultimate reality, existence, but In Buddhism more like god said to spread the teachings of Buddhism.
帝釈天Taishakuten, King of Tendou/Deva realm, and 天部tenbu/devas race. often seen next to Oobonten. Center/commander of the 四天王/4 heavenly kings, who monitor/judge humans. Connected to warding evil, healing illness.
阿修羅王Ashuraou, King of Shuradou/Asura realm, and Ashuras race, sometimes rivals to Tenbu. In some interpretations seen as a sun god. in particular, main purpose is "protection of Buddhist teachings".
六道rikudou/6 paths of reincarnation, are said to be tendou, ningendou/human, shuradou, chikushoudou/animal, gakidou/hungry spirit, jigokudou/naraka, hell. They live/die/reborn.
外道gedo(in relation to rikudou)/outer path, is outside the circle of reincarnation, such as tengudou, because tengu(former monk died with pride) knows buddhist teachings, can't reincarnate as a human, but is immortal as a tengu so can't continue. 解脱gedasu/moksha, enlightment, is another example.
五鈷杵gokusho is type of Kongosho has four prongs pointed to center one. One side said to represent 5 buddhas, 5 wisdoms, while the other 5 greeds to mean indestructible truth of Buddhism. (Butsuma + 4 children adds up to 5?)
A legend says Vajra had multiple prongs pointed outward to showing it's use as a weapon to harm. However, Buddha desires end suffering/harm for all , so he took and pushed prongs inward to turn weapon into an equally powerful tool for self improvement, destroying inner desires, greeds, etc.
In Naruto
Shintou Kami sometimes seen as manifestations of Buddhas/Tenbu(本地垂迹), so I think it fits to see OotsutsukiIndra's Uchiha use Kami(Amaterasu, etc) from creation story as the name of their doujutsu.
Senju's family crest is a vajra with inward prongs, in a sense, a former unstoppable/indestructible weapon of Indra turned into a peaceful staff -> A symbol of OotsutsukiAsura's desire or prophecy to change OotsutsukiIndra.
Hashirama not wearing Senju headband, is kind of like giving up changing Madara. Or changing priorities, gokusho(desires to change OotsutsukiIndra) -> leaf(village protection).
I couldn't answer in the comment section but yeah that's amazing that there is always something new to learn from the manga I think I'm gonna buy T65 in Japanese.
Oh About Madara/Obito in the anime. I've always watched Naruto mostly in sub. but even when Madara appears for the first time, I had to stop go back to listen to Obito cosplaying Madara again because even the seiyuu voice where not the same. In the translation I've always felt Obito has caught Madara's tone and attitude but his speech still sounds modern (Naruto always understands him). I'm always surprise why Onoki didn't realise during the kage's meeting that it wasn't him. Madara's speech is so distinctive, he always talk like a feudal Lord from the 16th century lol.
I believe Obito disguising as Madara also has a different approach to tailed beasts? Obito, when talking to Naruto, referred to him as the "ninetails fox" several times if I'm not mistaken, and I haven't seen or heard Madara referring to Naruto as "ninetails", he (real Madara) always called him by his name when he was speaking to him (if I remember correctly).
If you have time @komehyappyou, it would be wonderful to know more details about Madara's speech!
(Also, your comment @al-hekima-madara-blog about Madara sounding like from 16th century made me laugh 😂, because you're so right.)
@al-hekima-madara-blog
65? ah... manga vols are cheap in Japan, but travel/shipping is expensive. Are you planning to buy a physical copy(expensive shipping... amazon.co.jp?) or a ebook copy(~4USD or Euro)? Ebook might look cleaner, cheaper, but it sure feels nice to have physical book in hand, no?
I'm not sure if creator at the time realized Oonoki meet Madara eailer...
It's same voice actor for both, when disguised? Unmasked obito/silly tobi is diff tho. the actor sounds "rougher" when talking as real Madara. I did tell you a bit of Madara's speech before, but... I'll post here and add a few things.
@lunyzare
Madara does seem to emphasis names like "Oh Kabuto, right?" Madara being reference to Matarajin, likes to refer to fighting as dancing. Talks about "guts". Also since he's old man inside, says old man things.
"What adult fights seriously with 砂利gravel/children?"
砂利jari is gravel(rocks), but is a older/ancient theater related insult for children spectators from jargon used by the performers. since back in the day kids had shaved heads so allegedly seen like gravel when looking down on them from the stage.
There's lots of insults towards youngsters. gaki, etc 2nd Hokage called Orochimaru 若僧wakazou insult for younger, uneducated/unruly males, using the kanji for "young monk", which I think interesting since seem Senju are Buddhist. 2nd Mizukage also called Orochimaru "wakazou" but used 若造 instead. same meaning, but diff kanji/nuance.
Madara said Naruto using ShadowClones would lead to 烏合の衆/crowds of crows, which is old idiom/rare to hear in everyday conversation. Naruto doesn't know, and Obito has to explain, haha.
In the past, crows seen as silly, disorderly birds, but nowadays they are one of the most intelligent/social species of bird.
I'd say that for Obito/Tobi/Disguised Madara is more mysterious/plain, harder to stick out. Obito doesn't have the "Matarajin/Dancing/Theater" references or uses ancient proverbs, or as many "these annoying children " remarks.
But there's a very interesting difference when they talk about their shared goal. ch597++ Sometimes words are pronounced the same/mean same, but have different kanji, which changes meaning slightly only in written context. Since is manga, all is spoken to each other, but the reader has the ability to see what Kanji the characters where thinking of to get more exact meaning.. if make sense?
Madara and Obito describe the world as "munshisa", translated as emptiness/futility.
Madara's emptiness is 空しさ while Obito's emptiness is 虚しさ.
空 is like when you strike the sky and find nothing. -> Madara is like "this world is empty/has nothing i value"
虚 is like when you climb up a large hill and find a dent in the top, finding hollowness. It is connected to 嘘"lie"(which is 口mouth + 虚) -> Obito's is like "this world is lies/fake"
Madara and Obito want to build "tsukuru" dream world. Madara thinks 造る while Obito thinks 創る.This is more noticeable in 606.
造る -> when building a large physical thing, compared to 作る. I construct aircraft, cruise ship, garden, building. But is also used in "heavy transforming/growing" I construct sake, miso, soy sauce, chemicals.
創る -> when creating new, creativity, more figurative. "start from scratch". Like create work of art/book/manga, create new era/culture, or god creates the world,etc it as the 刀sword radical, such as using it to cut a dent/scratch as a starting point. 創 also have meaning of cut/scar.
Madara seems to see the dream as real, a physical thing he change the world into "dream world", while Obito seems wants to create/replace a new world. Obito uses nunoboko sword, to destory/recreate, which is prob connected to his use of 創.
In some corner of character pages, some tell event dates. I flipped through the book, and found 29 of them. I think it's all of it.
Let's construct timeline.
y = years ago from 4th war end. (character)
??y (Kaguya) - Kaguya subdued neverending conflict, and so was called a goddess, and gained people's respect.
~67y (Tobirama) - Hashirama becomes Hokage, As Shodai's counselor, as 2nd Hokage, Tobirama made cold/composed organization structure.
~66y (Madara) - Madara leaves Konoha, becomes missing nin. Madara's beliefs unable to gain support by his fellow members. Alone, chose the path of Konoha rebellion.
~66y (Oonoki) - Younger days was completely defeated by Madara, idiom(unable to lift hand,feet -> so powerless/outmatched as if Oonoki was paralyzed.). In the depths of hopelessness, the shine of his will weakened.
~??y 2nd great War
~31y (Hiruzen) - As part of a group of Tobirama's elite guard corps, worked on a unified mission with Danzo, and Homura, etc,
~31y (Danzo) - With Hiruzen thet (idiom)polish/sharpen each other, Danzo dreamed of the Hokage's position.
~31y (Tsunade) - Tsunade's will comprised of dreams of her loved ones. To become Hokage, To protect everyone, Mid-Ambition, his life was lost. Dan's desires that Tsunade inherits.
many jp fans believe Tobirama died in 2nd Shinobi war also. if you believe it, then we can estimate Hokage terms like this...
1st (Hashirama) 67y-55?y. ~12y+ term, Tsunade's age. Doesn't make sense for Tsunade to be granddaughter.
2nd(Tobirama) 55?y-31y, ~19y- term, 67-31=36y + 24(Izuna's death age) = +60s years old. Seems fit Hashirama's first person pronoun change from jump magazine to book. "washi"(old man) -> "ore"(normal male pronoun in anime, but rough in real life. ),Tobirama keeps "washi", so sounds old.
5th(Tsunade) ~4y term,since after 4th war quits i think
6th(Kakashi) +10years guess because comic in zainosho.
7th(Naruto) few years, short for now...
~31y (Killer Bee) - To close the gap between A's strength, Bee struggled to complete Double Lariat.
~29y (Nagato) - childish days Nagato sole wish "To protect Yahiko and Konan" as he told his teacher. But even that could not come true.
~28y (Konan) - Days of happy studying, by spending time among Yahiko and Nagato, fostered in desire for peace.
~27y (Kushina) - As a child, her red hair was embodiment of her inferiority complex. Because of Minato's few words, she was able to appreciate herself.
~26y (Might Guy) - Even when told sarcasm, takes it positively. Even now, with his fist up high, that's the unchanging foward-facing Guy, himself.
~??y 3rd great War
~22y (Mei) - Village of Blood Mist's grusome affair! Once Kirakakure's village had bad habit "To make Students kill each other" that even other villages trembled and feared. She is also one of the nin to have overcame this suffering.
~21y (Minato) - First fight with ABcombo! Minato is the one behind 4th Raikage A's Guard, Killer Bee, they clashed swords many times, and respected each other's valor.
~20y (Obito) - Obito wanted his face among the hokage carved cliff. His youngboy ages where he held this ambition, and walked alongside his comrades.
~20y (Rin) - Minato's Red speck(lone women among men)! Taking the hands of the unusual duo, Kakashi and Obito to point in same direction. Was a person who guided others to good.
~19?????y (4th Raikage, A) - A's found success of Double Lariat with Bee, who was designated as his partner, and came to be called his younger brother. Didn't this happened 31y ago? haha
~18y (Kakashi) - At Minato's recomendation, Kakashi enlists Anbu, keeping the though of his friends in his chest. Kushina's guard he also served as.
~18y (Kabuto) - Showing high intelligence and quick wit as a child, gained skill of medical ninjutsu.
~17y Naruto's Birth
~~13?y - Hinata 3rd Birthday, Neji curse mark, Hinata kidnapping attempt, Hinata age 16-3 = 13y diff.
~12y (Sasuke) - each time, Itachi poked forhead with finger, distanced his little brother, Sasuke felt stroke of loneliness.
~~9?y - Uchiha Massacre, Itachi age 21-13 = 8y diff, since died before 4th war end, +1y.
~7y (Itachi) - With his Sharingan aimed at Orochimaru, Itachi counterattacked defeating him. As a result Orochimaru left Akatasuki.
~6y (Hinata) - Fragile self, and unchanging thoughts! Academy Days where she was Introvered and reserved. With a small voice, helped Naruto with all her spirit. (I think that's a panel where Naruto and Sasuke have childhood spar, so prob around year.)
~5y Part 1
~5y (Hashirama) - First time "impureland" reincarnated!. Edo(Joudo sect term for living existence, considering "pure land", appears in naruto, interesting to talk about Buddhist afterlife in sects). In the previous, "impure land" reincarnation, had low accuracy, so Hashirama's true strength could not be shown.
~4y (Shikamaru) 200IQ super sharp person! Without equal, has ability to find things bothersome, which his catch phrase. However his intellect, from early times, showed a glimpse of its ability .
~4y (Gaara) Same pain to know, Same fate of Jinchuriki to bear, his encounter with naruto greatly changed Gaara.
~4y (Kisame) from two man one set, Konoha to attack! As an Akatsuki member Kisame, was given duty to capture jinchuriki.
~4y (Naruto) In Valley of the End, Great Battle! in order to bring back Sasuke, who became missing nin, willing to die to persuade.
~4y (Zetsu) In Valley of the End, watched the fierce fight. Since Naruto, and Sasuke were essential pawns (casts to a theater) to his plans, he secretly recorded the deathmatch.
~4y (Sakura) Solid pledge for her growth! In order to abandon weakness, and become strong. she desired to be 5th Hokage Tsunade's student.
金剛杵kongousho/vajra, an important buddhist symbol. 金剛 is hardest material, diamond, indestructible.
Indra, his rivals, Asura, and his weapon Vajra
Indra/Asura/Vajra are a bit different in Hinduism vs jp, mainly esoteric, Buddhism... So i want to learn, write, discuss.
Obviously, Religions, esp Hinduism, very diverse(diff groups/sects/regions say diff things, across diff time periods), this is general/simplified idea. if want correct/add.
Hinduism
Indra, said to be "title", rather than "name", king of Svarga, king of devas, associated with rain/storms. Known to wield Vajra, unstoppable, indestructible thunderbolt to vanquish evil spirits/sinners. A legend says that Indra has 1000 eyes, which used to be ?????? which he was cursed with due to his lust for women.
A legend says that Indra's Vajra originated a spinal column of Sage Dhadhichi, bones blessed by Lord Shiva earlier, who offered it, sacrificing himself, to help Indra defeat a powerful asura, Vritra.
Devas are rivals of Asuras, which are sometimes demonlike, power hungry, associated with drought/famine. Indra killing Vritra symbolizes drought/rain cycle.
Param Vir Chakra, designed by Savitribai Khanolkar, India's highest military medal has Indra's Vajra, symbolizing Sage Dhadhichi's great, selfless sacrifice.
Random:
In Hindi indradhanush-> Indra's bow, rainbow.
eng/hindi, look/sound different but think similar. rain, indra(rain/storms god) + bow(weapon) =rainbow.
indo-european heritage? There's also many other languages of India. I wonder how common "rain/god+ bow" is?
jp/chinese, 虹niji/rainbow = 虫/creature + 工/strike because think as living dragon/snake which ran through the sky. So 虹"male" and 蜺/霓"female" rainbows, top/dimmer one in double rainbow. Unsure about the kunyomi(native japanese pronunciation, not chinese) origin though.
Japanese Buddhism
三十三間堂sanjuusangendo/33 forms hall, in Kyoto, has famous 28 group of statues/gods who are protectors of main idol, SenjuKannon considered servants/protectors of Buddhist Teachings. link.
大梵天daibonten/Brahman, In Hinduism more like concept of ultimate reality, existence, but In Buddhism more like god said to spread the teachings of Buddhism.
帝釈天Taishakuten, King of Tendou/Deva realm, and 天部tenbu/devas race. often seen next to Oobonten. Center/commander of the 四天王/4 heavenly kings, who monitor/judge humans. Connected to warding evil, healing illness.
阿修羅王Ashuraou, King of Shuradou/Asura realm, and Ashuras race, sometimes rivals to Tenbu. In some interpretations seen as a sun god. in particular, main purpose is "protection of Buddhist teachings".
六道rikudou/6 paths of reincarnation, are said to be tendou, ningendou/human, shuradou, chikushoudou/animal, gakidou/hungry spirit, jigokudou/naraka, hell. They live/die/reborn.
外道gedo(in relation to rikudou)/outer path, is outside the circle of reincarnation, such as tengudou, because tengu(former monk died with pride) knows buddhist teachings, can't reincarnate as a human, but is immortal as a tengu so can't continue. 解脱gedasu/moksha, enlightment, is another example.
五鈷杵gokusho is type of Kongosho has four prongs pointed to center one. One side said to represent 5 buddhas, 5 wisdoms, while the other 5 greeds to mean indestructible truth of Buddhism. (Butsuma + 4 children adds up to 5?)
A legend says Vajra had multiple prongs pointed outward to showing it's use as a weapon to harm. However, Buddha desires end suffering/harm for all , so he took and pushed prongs inward to turn weapon into an equally powerful tool for self improvement, destroying inner desires, greeds, etc.
In Naruto
Shintou Kami sometimes seen as manifestations of Buddhas/Tenbu(本地垂迹), so I think it fits to see OotsutsukiIndra's Uchiha use Kami(Amaterasu, etc) from creation story as the name of their doujutsu.
Senju's family crest is a vajra with inward prongs, in a sense, a former unstoppable/indestructible weapon of Indra turned into a peaceful staff -> A symbol of OotsutsukiAsura's desire or prophecy to change OotsutsukiIndra.
Hashirama not wearing Senju headband, is kind of like giving up changing Madara. Or changing priorities, gokusho(desires to change OotsutsukiIndra) -> leaf(village protection).
仏間butsuma: alcove/room where 仏壇butsudan, buddhist altar is placed.
柱間hashirama/space between pillars,bay-> 柱/pillars
扉間tobirama (no meaning) -> 扉/doors(hinges)
瓦間kawarama (no meaning)-> 瓦/roof tiles
板間itama/wooden floor room-> 板/woodenPlanks(flooring)
They end with 間ma/space, room. 板ita/瓦kawara are odd/boring compared to 柱Hashira(symbolic, used for counting kami, pillars/support), 扉Tobira(symbolic, gate to new places/changes)
Ah... but there seems to be a theme...parts of a traditional japanese house/architecture? or temple?
Similar Senju Names: Butsuma's name Mystery
Background: if you remember, Naruto manga was released weekly, Butsuma appeared in ch622 and had a week where he was unnamed. people tried guessing his name, based on pillars/doors/roof tiles/planks theme. Some guessed his name correctly. But naturally you get some silly answers.
Let's learn a few parts of a traditional Japanese house!(mostly end in ma)
梁間harima,etc -> 梁/beams
襖fusuma are opaque/solid sliding doors(ex has black outline, white, but sometimes they have paintings), but 障子shouji are translucent sliding doors with wooden grids. 畳tatami is flooring in traditional house.
欄間ranma(my guess w) are carved/grid "transom window" above sliding doors.
床の間tokonoma(床間) aclove for decorations, sometimes next to 仏間butsuma and often has a 掛軸kakejiku/hangingscroll as decor. 押入れoshiire is built in closet. 地袋jibukuro(red), is ground cupboard. Not the 経机kyouzukue/sutraTable, incense holder in front. Above is a frame of 無量寿/eternal life a reference for AmidaNyorai, important figure in esp. pure land sects.
茶の間chanoma(茶間) originally "tea room" for ceremony, but used like living room. similar to 居間ima, western style.
寝間nema is an old word for bedroom. 寝室shinshitsu or "bedroom" is common modern days.
Joke guess but interesting history
陰間kagema... 陰kage\shadow... "shadow space"...
painting by 鈴木春信SuzukiHarunobu of Kagema(boy prostitute) and customer.
Originally, kagema was a term for Kabuki-in-training boys, who didn't appear in stage,(in shadow space). Young boys(13-20) replaced women roles, and often did prostitution to make ends meet. Later term became synonymous with male prostitute and served men and women customers.
During later Edo period, "pinnacle of sexual passion" was experiencing men and women, so kagema "teahouses" prospered, but eventually faded until meji era's draft/changes which ended prostitution. wikilink
Random: Tsunade and Nawaki
of course Tsunade is a character from the famous goukan, "The Tale of Gallant Jiraya"
綱手tsunade is short for 綱手縄tsunadenawa in the olden days was rope to pull boat back to shore.
Tsunade's brother name in kanji 縄樹nawaki, is "rope tree", 縄nawa is thinner rope than 綱tsuna
Of course Nawaki and Tsunade names, makes me think of shintou practices of 注連縄shimenawa with 四手/紙垂shide wrapped around 神木shinboku/sacred tree, which are used to section off kami's world vs man's world.
~Heian period(794-1185) 三すくみ拳sansukumiken/three way deadlock fist games was introduced to Japan from China.
one of oldest of these games is 虫拳mushiken"bug fist"
Slug(pinkie out) eaten by the Frog(thumb out) eaten by the Snake(pointer out) who dies somehow by slug(multiple explanations, snake is melted by slug's excretions, slippery slug crawls in, chokes snake). In the original Chinese game, slug is replaced by poisonous centipede/millipede, due to mistranslation.
One formerly popular game was 狐拳kitsuneken.
庄屋shouya/villagehead(both hands down) is deceived by 狐kitsune/fox(hands curled, to imitate fox ears), who is shot by 猟師ryoushi/hunter(fists extended, to imitate holding a gun) who is under the authority of villagehead.
most famous sansukumiken is じゃんけんjanken(many other regional variants)/rock,paper,scissors, which modern variant seems evolved games from China introduced in early Edo period(1603-1868). This spread across japan, making mushiken obsolete, and became popular around the world.
拳遊びkenasobi/Fist games of these types seems to have originally popular in brothels, but later became a popular children's game.
自来也説話"The Tale of Jiraiya" was a reading book by 感和亭鬼武KanwateiOnitake, released in 1806.
自来也Jiraiya's name came from a legend that there was a thief in Song Dynasty China who wrote "我来也(I arrived) "on the walls of house he robbed.
story follows Jiraiya, gentlemanly thief, who robs houses using ninjutsu, and learns toad magic from a sage. One enemy he encounters is a woman whose grudge turned her into a snake.
児雷也豪傑譚"The Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant", was a famous goukan( sort of picture book) released 43 volumes over 1839-1868, 29 years, taking inspiration from the earlier story, taking contributions from multiple people.
児雷也Jiraiya's name in this version is "young thunder", and teams up with 綱手Tsunade, who uses slug magic, to take down 大蛇丸Orochimaru, who uses snake magic.
Three way deadlock with Jiraiya(toad), Orochimaru(snake), Tsunade(slug)
Story grew popular and influenced ideas of ninja/ninjutsu=magical. inspired kabuki plays, and led to a 1921 classic short film (21min) 豪傑児雷也gouketsujiraiya. "The Gallant Jiraiya" directed by 牧野省三/Makino Shouzou, staring 尾上松之助/Onoe Matsunosuke as Jiraiya, first superstar of Japan.
Going off of this theory post. can anyone who speaks Japanese or knows enough of it tell me if there are specific indicators to know whether when someone says they have siblings, they're referring to a group of siblings with gender unspecified or if they just have several brothers? When I looked it up, the word for "brothers" and "siblings" (兄弟 kyōdai) is the same.
Also because in some translations (the official VIZ one in particular) Madara never really specifies he had all brothers, just that they used to be five
And idk if the subs for the episodes I found on 9anime are official or fan-made or not, but they do the same
Which means there are different translations going around saying he either outright said he had 4 other brothers, or just says they used to be 5 in the family without specifying everyone's genders
which is why I'm a bit confused. Also the original japanese version does have the actual number 5 written when he says this
Which gets me thinking the "there are 5 of us" is probably the more accurate one?
ALL this to say that I need a concrete answer for my question so as to not entirely dismiss the possibility that Madara might've had sisters.
I wanna know as well even if I think it's just brothers...but generally the english translation of Naruto is pretty bad, it often simplifies sentences or just change the syntax. Many time I have to come back to the french version who's trying to stay closer to the japanese version. I know translation is not easy with languages from different family group, but the english one tends to be very very lazy unfortunately...
兄弟Kyoudai is “siblings”, general term for siblings, any gender combo. you can say 女兄弟 to specify sisters, or 男兄弟 to specify brothers.
kanji uses 兄/bigbrother, and 弟littlebrother, so literally brothers, and there is an alternate version of 姉妹shimai/big,little sister for only sisters. It’s common to write kyoudai in hiragana きょうだい to mean siblings so less confusing.
Madara’s other siblings is generally assumed to be male, but it is possible he had sisters. 3? 2? Up to you.
“I used to have 4 siblings...” might makes more sense in eng, than “I’m one of 5 siblings”. So i don’t think it’s a bad translation. saying “I used to have 4 brothers” is adding more information...
Random Info: SOV Structure
English, French, Chinese, etc is Subject Verb Object language.
I(subject) used to be(verb) a part of 5 siblings(object)
But Japanese, Korean, Turkish(Surprisingly similar to korean/jp) etc is Subject Object Verb, so the thinking is different. verb at the end of a sentence can change the meaning so it is more impactful.
For example,
Madara: I(subject)... 5 siblings(object)
Madara: used to be...(past tense verb).
To me it’s sadder/more impactful in jp. Because you would expect (present tense). But in English/SVO languages, the verb before the object spoils the effect before it appears.
Also about the mountains name....
妙Myou is feminine but 妙見菩薩MyoukenBosatsu is a male god of the north star. Similarly worshiped in shingon/tendai sect like Matarajin/Madarakishin. Myouken a nice name to give to a sibling of Matarajin/Madarakishin. But good luck giving a name like kurohime to a boy. (laugh)
Nagano’s Mountain kurohime is associated with some legends. 黒姫伝説, some variation are nobleman’s daughter named Kurohime falls in love with a dragon of a lake and mt. Kurohime is the mountain is where they lived.
Another variation is a bit sadder, where Kurohime, peasant daughter, falls in love with a rich man, and when she realizes they can never be together, falls into the lake where they met, to be incarnated into a great snake.
Chinese name for Madara is spots斑, pronounce “Bān”? Madara should be “摩多罗”Móduōluō. Sounds a lot similar.... I think it’s better to keep Kurohime as Kurohime not Kuro since cultural meaning is lost.
Oh i forgot, im sorry. You asked... :( But this is related concept. And I remembered.
So when Madara says “I’ve got the sha-”
Madara: I’m extremely sure! anyway, I(Subject) 写Sha, as in “写輪眼sharingan”(object)
.....but the verb is missing.
it isn’t sure that he means “I Sharingan have”, or “I sharingan have the potential to have”. translators have to make up a verb to make it work in a SVO language.
in jinosho pg 167, it does say that Madara’s sharingan awakened immediately after his parting words to Hashirama.
potential to have sharingan means you prob have better eyesight in general.
@mirins
I think jp is a bit more vague language, much more context based while English is more specific sometimes. I often feel like I have to add more information in English translations to make it grammatically correct or preserve the order of information.
But if there is a translation of a specific word, they should try to keep it consistent. (Focus on words that repeat rather than specific word?) But also, I think an even bigger issue is “cultural/religious context”...
For example... Before the Hashi childhood flashback.
Madara: I have already 届いたreached!
next chapter title is “届いたReached”
And during childhood flashback
Madara: Not just you alone, but I too 届いたreached (the other side).
To answer the question the importance of “reached” is...
why where Hashriama/Madara skipping stones near a riverbed?
A idiom 賽の河原\Sainokawara to describe a useless effort, endless labor, etc. you use it like “When you clean it up it’s messed up the next day, it’s ‘like sainokawara””
賽 -> dice (in this case it means: boundary line/point between this world and afterlife)
河原 ->riverbed, place with rocks.
In Japanese buddhist folk belief, children/stillborn who die before their parents die go to 賽の河原sainokawara, the riverbed of 三途川Sanzuriver... the river to cross in Buddhism before you go to next life/reincarnate.
The dead children are stuck and can’t cross the river to next life and stack stones into tower in memorial/to pray for happiness/in gratitude of their parents. But a demon comes to destroy the tower before it is finished. For hours, and hours, they stack a tower that will be destroyed until their fingers bleed, and they cry out beg for their living parents.
In Buddhism, attachment/mourning is bad, the children suffer for causing their parent’s to suffer. It is also considered to be a “sin” to die before your parents do. Different beliefs say different things.
It’s also said that the demons destroy the tower to symbolize that children’s prayers never reach their parents while they mourn.
when the parent’s no longer suffer, the children can be freed. This is unrealistic expectation, so the myth is continued with children end up eventually saved by jizo, a buddha connected with children who is their parent in after life.
Meaning?
Butsuma, as a father who outlived two children, can’t be sad, the sooner he moves on from child’s death, the less child has to suffer.
Madara instead of stacking the stones to honor his parents/ancestors, he attempts to throw them to the other side. Hashrama is the one to first reach the other side. Hashirama/Madara are probably in the river bed in the first place to be closer to their dead siblings.
Hashrama/Madara are still alive, they can outlive their parents, and change the world, but not like their dead siblings, who are stuck stacking stones in an endless, useless effort.
Stacking up the stones -> cycle of war, a endless, useless effort. What Children are supposed to do in riverbed
Throwing the stones -> end cycle of war attempt, desire for change. What Madara/Hashrama end up doing
stone reach other side -> peace, to cross the river and go to the next life/stage. End the cycle of war.
Madara “I have already reached” is like “I already caught up to you” but if you look deeper it’s more like “I already found a path to peace!/There’s a way out of this worthless struggle!”. Adult Madara is Kid Madara, a child who wants to change/end cycle.
Main point.... cultural/context barrier is important. Also I wanted to share some culture.
For example Nakano shrine... but i would probably have to write too much... :( If you thought this post was long.... )
1st -> バカbaka/Idiot: Tobira to Naruto: “Your a bigger バカidiot than elder brother!”
2nd -> インケンinken/.. DORK??? wwwWIENER? They must’ve confused インケン with インケイinkei/peeenis!!!! 🤣 inkei isn’t an insult...
3rd -> スケベ sukebe/perv, Jiraya, grand pervert himself, said スケベ to describe Hiruzen’s lewdness in flashback.
4th -> ジジイjijii/geezer, jiji can be geezer(insulting, calling them old) or grandpa depending on how you say it/context. same with baba grandma/hag. Minato is Boruto’s biological grandpa.
5th -> ババアbabaa/hag, naruto called her バアちゃんbaachan/granny. And she is quite old.
6th -> lips
7th -> アホaho/idiot, interchangeable with baka, fitting since reincarnations.クソオヤジkusooyaji/shitDad, boruto’s father...
the written insults seem to match
how translate インケン?
he shows up in images...
陰険: the surface appears good, but harbors evil intentions in their inner heart.
context: Tobirama is nicknamed 卑劣様hiretsusama/lordWretched, while eng fans joke “Tobirama hates Uchiha”, because started after war appearance, cuz said bad about Uchiha, jp fans joke “Tobirama bad guy” because started before cuz of edo tensei comments making mysterious kage look scary. Result is that there’s little surpirse Tobirama gets called inken at the end.
A joke/edits/randomthoughts collection post, don’t take too seriously! Up to individual fan interpretation. but why inken?
Edo Tensei!?
(Water) Fighting other nation’s people is ok, but my own nation i can’t endure. the one who use this jutsu to bind us, orochimaru, so i hear, that punk ! Afterwards he’s going to pay!
(Earth) Muu: We never got along, but this once we have the same feeling.
(Rain) Hanzo: Youre” akatsuki” and then five great nation’s shinobi also both enemies of mine. I have no intention to help but... This technique seems most unforgivable ... my body moves on it’s own.
(Water) Zabuza: using the dead... Some asshole is using me.... makes me sick...
(Home Culture) Naruto: This edo ten whatever jutsu... makes me sick! People who don’t want to fight are forced to fight... it’s probably the same on the other battlefields right?
LordWretched: AN APOLOGY? FOR WHAT?
(Water) Zabuza: this edo tensei... it’s like where the dead doesn’t die... this jutsu again makes me sick...
(Wind) Chiyo: Edo Tensei..... from the 2nd hokage Tobirama’s time, the jutsu has seen some improvement... to think that so many souls could be controlled all at once.
(Earth) Muu: This is the 2nd hokage’s 卑劣(様)wretched technique. The dead from yomi are invoked and bound... you were all each forcefully summoned here.
(Home Culture) Kakashi: Edo tensei... this jutsu can’t be forgiven!...etc
Home/surrounding cultures view edoten using the dead, forcing them to fight,, as bad. After muu’s statement, the jokes began. However, there was a 問題発言/problematic statement, which was a big deal
It’s the first time i’m using my own body, however ??!?!! WTF
人間爆弾
Interesting, this isn’t a meme in eng circles. I think this has to do with translation of 戦術senjutsu.
-> fighting techniques/style -> imply in eng Tobirama used edoten in mid fight as a portable instant konan
however it’s more like conflict strategy, tactics -> imply in jp a tactic you could use in a war involving bombs that look like humans.
Tobirama said something more like:
I created edo tensei, in addition a suitable tactic; though it’s the first time i’m using my own body, however. (blows himself up in front of Obito)
edo tensei combined with the exploding tag jutsu was treated lot worse... i would say historical/cultural reasons are also a factor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjhtMvaYQMA(jp)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzcvon4taxA(eng)
The contrast in reaction is hilarious. Also that eng sub mistranslated. Just try to watch/read/see for yourself.
this doesn’t fit, it’s more explaining Tobirama’s nickname.
Behavior!?
陰険 kanji break downs to yin,hidden, background, shadow, etc + danger, risk, evil scheme. Modern use, sterotypical inken person/behavior does plotting underneath the shadows underneath good cover. a dualistic aspect.
Hashirama popular person was elected hokage as per the will of the people in village/country.
tonosho142 tobirama’s page : 初代の没後,組織としての木ノ葉の確立に大きく貢献した,初代の弟/After shodai’s death, he made big contributions to Konoha’s establishment as an organization, the shodai’s kid brother.
hyonosho57, also dougaemaki178
jinnosho125; strange
Tobira on the surface seeming good/friendly, when he established UchihaSenbei to Uchiha clan, but it’s a cover for the evil intention inside, to distance from govt, and collected to be darkpart watched. If i remember correctlywww.i’m too poisioned
Amusing, when Tobirama said “A clan possessed by 悪evil.” -> a zetsu possessed by creator of edo tensei, a wretched technique. Who was nicknamed LordWretched at the time.
InterestingNote: Obito say ninetails can detect
敵意/rival desire/hostile == as desire to fight, revenge, being an opponent/enemy
but naruto/Shikaku say
悪意/evil desire== wicked, desire to cause harm, break moral laws,,,
hostile vs evil different, someone can be hostile to you but not evil.
Tobirama works nicely among heroes, no comment on evilness, but labeled インケン/hidden evil at the end.
possible that Konoha culture/shinobi can’t differ “hostile” and “evil”, or determine “evil” based on “hostility”. But it could be like are people able to sense evil that is not directed towards them?
Legacy?!
jinnosho169 Tobirama’s page; surface seems good
jinnosho105 Danzo’s page; unpopular chara page hides secret bad
in original both use 師shi/master,teacher, so when fans analysis the general idea is something like this...
Slide1: two disciples are 3rd hokage SarutobiHiruzen and anbu [Root]’s Founder ShimuraDanzo
slide2: respectively they inherited will of fire and the will of wretch, developing into top rank shinobi.
will of fire -> good side -> willingness to sacrifice self for village, ex tobira dying for to save squad mem -> will of fire, no wretch -> Hiruzen, too soft, lets anyone do whatever.
will of wretch(joke name of “cold-headed ideology”) -> bad side -> willingness to sacrifice others for village, ex edo tensei iutsu requiring life sacrifice is. -> will of wretch, no fire -> Danzo, too harsh, kills konoha nin for konoha.
インケン -> 陰険 -> hidden + evil -> good outside + evil inside -> Light + Dark == tobirama dualistic chara == common interpretation.
Tobirama’s among the most interesting charas to me since unlike many who are yin/yang pairs,seems he is his own counterweight. I see tobirama being Izuna’s killer as symbolic.
strange feeling tagging this “anti tobirama” because, there is cultural difference in reaction/perception/translation.
i hope found “wiener” instead of as funny as did. i don’t know where dork came from though.
The revered Lord Hokage know and understands the eight principles are the cornerstone of all the knowledge of the shinobi: virtue, justice, ceremony, wisdom, loyalty, faithfulness, prudence and filial piety! He is master of over one thousand illusions and… eh?!
These eight virtues sound like the principles of Bushido, which in turn was inspired by Confucius principles.
The eng translation… hmm… added some extra info…. haha. but i think translators are trying to say the importance/fame of 8 virtues to audience that wouldn’t know.
Ebisu: hokagesama is defined as the one who knows the principles of virtue, justice, ceremony, wisdom, loyalty, honesty, filial peity, and harmony. ( 8 virtues from chinese teachings/confusianism)……until you are able to master a thousand techniques…. eh?
Ebisu explaining to konohamaru what he needs to know for hokage position, rather than talk about third hokage. i’m confused on “prudence”
八徳/hattokou/ the 8 virtues of confucianism
三綱 /three bonds -> 忠 lord/retainer, 孝 parents/children, 悌 sibling harmony or respect to elders(originally, this was husband/wife)
五常/5 constants-> 仁義礼智信 -> 仁 benevolence, 義 morality, 礼 etiquette, 智 wisdom, , 信 honesty.
仁/sympathy, compassion
義/morality, obeying the law
礼/etiquette, following the society norms
智/wisdom, knowing all things, determining good/evil
忠/loyalty, no lies in heart, serve lords earnestly.
信/honesty, don’t lie in speech
孝/filial peity respecting your parents. hehe, in the comic book i have, misprinted 孝kou/filial peity <-> 考kou/think. very easy kanji to confuse, type the same, look about the same.
悌 /harmony, having good relationship between siblings, but it also means respecting elders.
Random: 亡八,忘八bouhachi/dead8,forget8, from the meaning of “forgetting the 8 virtues.” is the word for a brothel, the brothel owner, or the customers of the brothel.
Bushido? Big Topic!
Bushido is…hard topic to define. generally it refers to the samurai way of thinking/ethics/morals, taken from confucianism, buddism, and shintoism. the practice differed from person/clan, etc.
There is debate if bushido was invented in the modern era, since the term wasn’t used commonly until meji era times.
新渡戸稲造NitobeInazou, you can find on 5000円 bills, was a famous thinker from a samurai family, during meji era, heavily shaped overseas perception of japan with his eng book Bushido: The Soul of Japan, where he said that the core ideas of bushido was was spiritual pillar of jp people that remains during westernation/end of feudalism/samurai.
met with criticism in japan since it was considered too idealistic view of samurai, not really historical, and it wasn’t intended for a japanese audience(he did not write a jp vers), but translated versions are still read/learned from, and it’s considered a good book with thoughts to consider.
Nitobe Inazou’s 7 virtues of Bushido:
in his book, he defined the 7つの徳/7 virtues of bushido, which are given these kanji. I would think it’s preferred to read original eng book for breakdown. I haven’t read book yet.
Thank you so much for the information @komehyappyou!
Does that mean “prudence” and “faithfulness” were added in the English version and “honesty” as well as “harmony” were cut out instead?
Could it be that the translators looked at the ten ideals of ninja from Bansensyuukai(萬川集海) and decided to change it so that it fits more to that? (see my other reblog for what I mean) Or maybe it was just because they thought from a western viewpoint that “honesty” and “harmony” don’t fit ninjas?
Maybe they used “prudence” instead of “providence” because it would be more recognizable for some readers. See prudence on the Ladder of Fortune (to the American Dream):
@narrative-critical-understanding don’t know who translates, if they are american, or other eng speaking countries, I’m not sure. interesting topic, is the Naruto manga influenced by the nationality of the translators? It’s interesting to swap out words in place of another. The funniest mistranslation so far is..... 🌭 草
“faithfulness” is a possible translation of 信/honesty, as it can be connected to faith in religious sense, although when connected to 8 virtues it is typically honesty.
prudence... himm. that’s not really anwhere.... but if remember correctly. the English speakers when hearing about the 8 virtues would get the Chinese confusian 8 virtues.
i think chinese use: 孝、悌、忠、信、礼、义==義 、廉、耻, where maybe sense of shame 耻 became prudence. There are more variations... gets complicated. i can’t read chinese too well...
about 萬川集海? I haven’t read the book yet, but I hear it’s an important source for anime/manga, ones that try to be realistic. Naruto’s people doesn’t really fit stereotype of ninja Maybe besides one or two charas.
The revered Lord Hokage know and understands the eight principles are the cornerstone of all the knowledge of the shinobi: virtue, justice, ceremony, wisdom, loyalty, faithfulness, prudence and filial piety! He is master of over one thousand illusions and… eh?!
These eight virtues sound like the principles of Bushido, which in turn was inspired by Confucius principles.
The eng translation... hmm... added some extra info.... haha. but i think translators are trying to say the importance/fame of 8 virtues to audience that wouldn't know.
Ebisu: hokagesama is defined as the one who knows the principles of virtue, justice, ceremony, wisdom, loyalty, honesty, filial peity, and harmony. ( 8 virtues from chinese teachings/confusianism)......until you are able to master a thousand techniques.... eh?
Ebisu explaining to konohamaru what he needs to know for hokage position, rather than talk about third hokage. i'm confused on “prudence”
八徳/hattokou/ the 8 virtues of confucianism
三綱 /three bonds -> 忠 lord/retainer, 孝 parents/children, 悌 sibling harmony or respect to elders(originally, this was husband/wife)
五常/5 constants-> 仁義礼智信 -> 仁 benevolence, 義 morality, 礼 etiquette, 智 wisdom, , 信 honesty.
仁/sympathy, compassion
義/morality, obeying the law
礼/etiquette, following the society norms
智/wisdom, knowing all things, determining good/evil
忠/loyalty, no lies in heart, serve lords earnestly.
信/honesty, don't lie in speech
孝/filial peity respecting your parents. hehe, in the comic book i have, misprinted 孝kou/filial peity <-> 考kou/think. very easy kanji to confuse, type the same, look about the same.
悌 /harmony, having good relationship between siblings, but it also means respecting elders.
Random: 亡八,忘八bouhachi/dead8,forget8, from the meaning of "forgetting the 8 virtues." is the word for a brothel, the brothel owner, or the customers of the brothel.
Bushido? Big Topic!
Bushido is...hard topic to define. generally it refers to the samurai way of thinking/ethics/morals, taken from confucianism, buddism, and shintoism. the practice differed from person/clan, etc.
There is debate if bushido was invented in the modern era, since the term wasn't used commonly until meji era times.
新渡戸稲造NitobeInazou, you can find on 5000円 bills, was a famous thinker from a samurai family, during meji era, heavily shaped overseas perception of japan with his eng book Bushido: The Soul of Japan, where he said that the core ideas of bushido was was spiritual pillar of jp people that remains during westernation/end of feudalism/samurai.
met with criticism in japan since it was considered too idealistic view of samurai, not really historical, and it wasn't intended for a japanese audience(he did not write a jp vers), but translated versions are still read/learned from, and it's considered a good book with thoughts to consider.
Nitobe Inazou's 7 virtues of Bushido:
in his book, he defined the 7つの徳/7 virtues of bushido, which are given these kanji. I would think it’s preferred to read original eng book for breakdown. I haven’t read book yet.
Naruto Vol 1-4: Small Details, references, culture.
vol/ch 1, naruto steals important scroll, and Choji’s dad/lookalike is with a crowd of people chanting
"As soon as we find him kill him!” became a joke called 秋道チョウザを許すな/Do not forgive Akimichi Choza. Choza's next appearance is during Konoha crush.
Naruto drinks spoiled milk, stomach anguish, goes to public toilet.
Note: limit 15cm of toilet paper.....
.........................15cm?!!
Before naruto booby-traps Kakashi with chalk eraser, there’s an umbrella with eel and dog on sides.
equiv to heart drawing with two names. eel and dog like each other. In manga/anime called 天才バカボンtenseibakabon with character that's a ウナギイヌ/eeldog.
vol 2, ch12, there’s a cover with serious kakashi, next to curious face,
へのへのもへじ/henohenomoheji/ face drawn with hiragana. it's the stereotypical scarecrow/kakashi face. kishimotosensei did a little sneaky face and scarecrow on vol 3 cover. Kakashi’s dogs has the face, and it’s in kakashi’s room. maybe more sneaky faces drawn.
Naruto suffering thousand years murder.
Kakashi’s... 千年殺し“thousand years of death” is a chain reference.
Before modern times/medicine, there was belief in “strike a acupuncture point and the person will die xx period of time later”, in addition, it juuust so happens that in japan it’s a popular children prank to poke people inside the butt. kancho
manga 空手バカ一代karatebakaichidai/Karate Master popularized where the main character describes secret terrifying technique 三年殺し/ThreeYearsMurder/ where he hits a point, and the victim dies three years later.
It became a joke to say that the point was “kancho”
gag manga トイレット博士/DoctorToliet parodied it and made 七年殺し/七年ゴロシ /7yearsMurder. Where a person is “assassinated” through.... a process, pointing 7 fingers in and then so the victim dies 7 years later.
image may be inappropriate: http://hidemaru-823.jugem.jp/?eid=1848 The guy does shout 臨兵闘者皆陣列在前 , a kuji, i think the same as the names of the naruto books.
I would translate as “thousand year murder” like it takes 1000 years for the technique to kill. I don’t know what “Thousand years of death” means, but I do think it sounds cool.
In Land of waves, 八百屋/yaoya/800Shop, generic term for vegetable shop. 800 can mean “a lot”, more like “abundance”.
NoteUnderSign: “Don’t pee”
Throwing Kunai.
mistranslated?
Sasuke: "Sharingan is abnormal condition that only appears in one part of the family linage(s) of the Uchiha.". said again in tonosho, pg 177 一族の中でも一部の血統にのみ発現する"血継限界". released after kakashi gaiden.
What did the rest of Uchiha do? Flashback Uchiha store shops,vol 25, vol 44,ch403, had 虎視bar, 酒sake store, senbei shop/makers/primeMemeMaterial 😅 , and...子门... uncommon kanji for entrance/door, uncommon for..
seed/produce shop (seed packets....farmers). Also Nakano Shrine : priest and miko.. lots to say, but not here... maybe never... In addition, Nakano, not Naka, as they would be two different shrines/rivers.
not supposed to have faces...
Haku, Zabuza, rabbit.
Gato’s guys....android 16 from dragonballz! A few of them wear chinese style clothing..
attempt at this, testing? want more? list is incomplete//(naruto room notes, etc) very disorganized.may do some updates.
"Curse of Hatred" is a popular English naruto fandom phrase but not a Japanese one.
Lots of talk, talk, talk about the "curse呪い of hatred", which Tobi used, but I think it's so weird, since I don't hear much jp naruto fans talk about it. but I hear "linkage/chaining連鎖 of hatred", which Pain used much more often. 連鎖 has two main eng translations of "cycle/chain", it doesn't mean literal chain, but "linkage", can be used in genetics.
F***k words, I want numbers! Using "exact search" on google, I can take the number of websites which use the phrase, ナルト "憎しみの呪い" and ナルト "憎しみの連鎖", and create curse:chain ratio.
jp curse:chain ratio ≈ 1:17
(I'm serious, it's just not common) Compare english, we'll add the two main translations chain/cycle to be fair.
eng curse:chain ratio ≈ 245,000: (89,800+152,000 = 241800) ≈ 1:1
control? group: eng vs jp "will of fire" ナルト "火の意志" show similar # of results. (Although naruto is more popular in english)
But why tho?
Is it cultural, translation, or random? What about OTHER langs" curse:chain ratio"?
I want to know MORE!
LET'S DISCUSS!
Please give opinion, theory, language,
maybe i'll make a post on my thoughts later, but i want others opinions/theory/lang/souls first
These are extra comics that were published to jump magazine that you might have missed.
Comic 1: Eat Your Vegtables!
Did you know that Kakashi sneaks in "eat more vegetable" notes in Naruto's room, in the early chapters of the manga? This extra comic strip is in reference to that. if people ask for it, I can try to collect the whole Kakashi naruto vegetable saga.
Naruto: “munya” (sleeping)
NoteInBoot: To Santa-san!! Let have me a year’s worth of ramen cup noodles! -(Swirl Uzamaki) Naruto
Note1: It only takes Training! (motivational)
NoteBehindPlant: “Unbeatable/constant victory”, full note:
Note3: Let’s eat more vegetables - Kakashi
The Next Morning
Naruto: “do-sari..”(flip off blanket) EE--... What-tebayo, Hey-----!!?
Naruto: Holy cow! How could he confuse Ramen and Vegetables ------
Note3: Let’s eat more vegetables! -Kakashi
Naruto: Where the hell is this idiot Santa from, dattebayo!!?
