I admit I didn't articulate myself the best on the last one. Having been in a bit of a hurry. So I apologize for that.
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I admit I didn't articulate myself the best on the last one. Having been in a bit of a hurry. So I apologize for that.
I'm officially off work, so I'm no longer fucking with this today (I only irradiate myself when I'm already busy waiting for the next bomb to go off).
i was recently reminded of this woman i saw on tiktok sometime in this last year or so who was talking about how she had heard from other trans women how wonderful it is to date trans men, she goes on to express her upset because we’re never interested in her, and she asks where are the trans men who want to date the dolls. her comments were flooded with hundreds of trans men talking about how much they adore trans women and love to date trans women. she makes a follow up video. she says you misunderstand me, i am looking for a real man. all of you are nice but you’re all too feminine. where are the trans men who look like real men.
and yet she wonders why we have no interest in her, it must be because trans men don’t want to date trans women, the fault must be with us. the concept that it could be because of her doesn’t even cross her mind.
she was not asking for trans men who love trans women, she was asking for a completely cis passing, patriarchal man, who happened to share transsexuality with her.
and this thought has bumped into another thought in my head, about these trans women who say they are simply women asking for support from the men in their community. a deeply understandable request that i see trans men meet with joy on the regular, gusto even. and yet, they look around and go, no trans man is supporting us, no trans man is supporting me. and i’ve stopped in my tracks in this moment because, support isn’t whats being asked, is it. that’s why the support given is dismissed entirely. what’s being really asked for is worship. it’s servitude. and anything less is seen as a failure at our social duties of chivalry. a failure of our manhood. a failure to uphold our side of the patriarchal bargain it has been implicitly assumed we must have agreed to in the first place.
a third thought has been bumped into. the few trans men these women do surround themselves with, are without a doubt, in every instance i have seen, viscously misogynistic towards other trans men and transmasculine people, and deeply benevolently sexist towards trans women. that is what is given the seal of approval. that is what is required. anything less than looking up, anything less than that high pedestal that unconditional worship guarantees will never crack and fall, anything less than feet kissed and sexual favors freely given, anything less than a doormat, a punching bag, a sex toy, is akin to community abandonment to them.
these are not feminists. these are patriarchal trans people who believe that their transsexuality inherently makes the misogynistic structures they partake in progressive and radical. but they are nothing more than dime store lackeys to the patriarchy, and frankly, should be dismissed accordingly.
I have a theory about this, actually, at least when it comes to white trans women (who by and large seem to be the biggest offenders when it comes to this type of behavior). It's something that's very difficult to put to words without sounding like a raging asshole but I do think there's some merit to it. My theory is that the reason so many white trans women—particularly young, freshly out of the closet, chronically online trans women—are Like That™ is because they are scrambling to regain the protection of white maleness they weren't aware they were forfeiting by transitioning.
The protection whiteness provides to a cisgender white man is fundamentally different from the protection whiteness provides to a cisgender white woman. This isn't to say that the protection of white maleness is unconditional, because it isn't. But the fundamental difference is that, at the end of the day, white AMAB people are born with the protection of whiteness. They can lose that protection by failing to comply with societal expectations, but it is still something they lose. And, a white cisgender man will never lose all of the protections of being a white cisgender man, despite what many white cis gay and neurodivergent men will tell you.
On the other hand, white AFAB people are not automatically born with the protection of whiteness. Instead, white AFAB people have to earn the protection of whiteness by complying with their own oppression through gender-conforming behavior (IE Not Being Queer Or Trans Or Fat Or.........) and, critically, by wielding the power of white supremacy and patriarchy against others, primarily queer people and people of color. But because white women are by and large conditioned from birth to earn that protection, you never see a white cisgender woman in the wild who doesn't have it, at least to some extent.
What that means is that your average white trans woman in all likelihood has no idea that the white cisgender women around her are playing a completely different game. The white trans woman has been raised to believe that the game is simple: comply with your gender role, and you'll be fine. She doesn't want to comply with the white male gender role anymore, but that's okay; if she sinks all of her time and energy and resources into transitioning into a perfect example of the white female gender role, she will be treated just like a cisgender white woman, with all of the power and privilege of whiteness that cis men have (except, y'know, the normal misogyny that white women willingly endure day to day in order to hold onto white privilege).
The problem is that that's not how it works. For trans people, once the cat's out of the closet, there's no reversing it. White supremacy and patriarchy will never accept a trans person, no matter how perfectly they comply with their gender role, because that's not how the game works. A trans woman will always be seen as a man who forfeited manhood, and a trans man will always be seen as a woman who failed at womanhood. (Note the use of forfeited vs. failed; that matters.)
So now you have a bunch of white trans women who are realizing that transitioning isn't all it was cracked up to be in the sense that they aren't being accepted as white women, no matter how hard they try to play the role, and they're all finding each other online and sharing their experiences. And because they're white, they think that being denied all of the power and privileges they think other white women have as their birthright is the highest form of oppression a human can experience. When in reality, those white cis women were always in a much more precarious situation than white cis men and are just collectively really really good at not rocking the boat, a boat the white trans woman will never be able to board to begin with.
And, because compliance isn't working for these white trans women the way they thought, they move right along to step 2, which is to wield the white privilege that they do still have (because they do still have some! just not as much as they thought they would, which to a white person is the same thing as being oppressed!) against other queer people and people of color. The end result: a generation of chronically online white trans women who think and act like tradwife mean girls.
@thesunlightmuse This is wrong. This is so wrong I'm amazed anyone who knows anything about Intersectionality could say something like this.
You are confusing White Supremacy with Patriarchy. The privilege that comes with Whiteness means being favored by White Supremacy for one's skin color. A person can lose some Patriarchal privilege by being queer and breaking gender norms, but the concept of Whiteness is based in history and heritage. There is nothing an individual can do to change their history and heritage.
You are confusing Male Privilege with White Privilege. An individual who appears cis, hetero, and male can lose Privilege upon being revealed as not those things, but their Whiteness will always be seen before their Queerness.
On the other hand, white AFAB people are not automatically born with the protection of whiteness. Instead, white AFAB people have to earn the protection of whiteness by complying with their own oppression through gender-conforming behavior (IE Not Being Queer Or Trans Or Fat Or.........) and, critically, by wielding the power of white supremacy and patriarchy against others, primarily queer people and people of color. But because white women are by and large conditioned from birth to earn that protection, you never see a white cisgender woman in the wild who doesn't have it, at least to some extent.
This is beyond ridiculous. Again, you are confusing Patriarchal Privilege and White Privilege. A person does not earn the protection of Whiteness, they are gifted it by virtue of being born white. Using "White Women's Tears" against Black men does not earn them White Privilege, they have the ability to use their tears against Black men because of their White Privilege.
I am sorry but being transmasculine is not "failing to achieve Whiteness". A queer female-assigned white person has an advantage over a cis-hetero-male person of color by virtue of their heritage. This does not get canceled out by being queer. Since y'all like reading, please read about the history of white queers leaving queers of color behind. This is Not. On. Trans Women.
People of color are born second class citizens, male and female and everything between, because of the oppression of our ancestors. It is beyond ignorant to say being assigned female and/or experiencing misogyny is the same. It is not. Patriarchy is a Tool of White Supremacy, not the other way around.
hey so first of all this is a creative sort of space we are carving out here, there is no reason for insulting someone or being harsh when we are all just playing with concepts.
patriarchal cultures exist outside of white supremacy, and acting like patriarchy solely manifested out of white domination is ahistorical and bordering on the myth of the noble savage. there is no one root of oppression, they all intertwine with each other but there is no singular root. patriarchy, ableism, white supremacy, xenophobia, human supremacy etc are all concepts that are woven together but will not be solved by one singular oppressive force being solved.
the person you are responding to on my post was not discussing white privilege, that has been made very clear, what is being discussed is white protection and how white supremacy interacts with patriarchy, they aren’t being confused for each other, the intersection of where they meet is being theorized on.
a “queer female assigned white person” has an advantage over a “heterosexual cis male of color” on the basis of race, and he would have advantage on the basis of sexgender. you are simplifying very immensely complex topics and all nuance is being lost.
i took a glance through your links (apologies i do not have hours to spend reading right now) and it feels important for me to reiterate that what is being discussed in this post is not about white queer people having less power over queer people of color, it is discussing white sexgender dynamics particularly in the trans community, and how to gain protection from other white people as a person born with or coercively assigned a vulva requires acts of racism and white supremacy to gain, whereas cis men are able to retain that protection from other white people irregardless of his participation in white domination behaviors. none of this is letting any group of white people off the hook for how they can harm people of color. i would not tolerate that.
I am sorry to be "harsh" when people are "playing with concepts" that are incorrect. Especially when it pertains to Race. I'm immensely curious as to whether there are any people of color involved in this conversation, or at least students of critical race theory.
I agree with thesunlightmuse's revision (which I'm going to address here as they did not reblog me directly), "protection of Whiteness" is a terrible (is that an acceptable word? Terrible?) way to describe uhhhh white-on-white violence. "Whiteness" does not mean what they think it means. It means fitting into the racial category of persons White Supremacy deems superior, ie of European descent, and it comes with White Privilege. Whiteness only exists as a concept to put white people above the non-white; otherwise, it means nothing. We can't use the word Whiteness and then say White Privilege is not part of the conversation. This is where the fundamental misunderstanding of concepts is coming from.
I agree oppressions are deeply intertwined but Non-Whiteness and Queerness are both on their own axis (which is what the wheel is meant to show. I agree, it's as reductive as the Genderbread Man, but I thought perhaps a simple starting point was needed).
A cis hetero Black man's sexgender relation to a transmasculine white person has nothing to do with their relationships to Whiteness. Their respective intersection matters when analyzing their lives separately - the trans person will have more to say about how transmasculinity affects their life, because Whiteness is a set of hurdles they do not have to jump. The Black man will have more to say on how non-Whiteness affects his life, because transmasculinity is a set of hurdles he does not have to jump. Comparing the two, their relationship to Whiteness is very straightforward. It's not simplifying or claiming only racism matters to say that.
Also, I never said Patriarchy solely manifested out of White Domination. In fact I said the opposite. White Supremacy uses Patriarchy as a means of control and hierarchy. It uses wealth too, which is itself on a different axis. A wealthy Black woman is still a Black woman.
Thesunlightmuse uses an interesting example of White Supremacy-on-white violence: it's true that White Supremacy would like if all white people did their part to make white babies. But not doing that doesn't lose them White Privilege - it loses them Patriarchal Privilege, as in they don't get that step up in society by becoming Patriarch/Matriarch of their own home. By the way, Irreversible Damage was fear-mongering about white transmasculine people refusing to do their part for the White Race. They do not have this panic around Black trans men having babies; they do not want more Black babies.
It seems that thesunlightmuse's race theory comes out of a bunch of white trans women saying they are more oppressed than people of color - as far as I can tell, the idea that they've lost White Privilege by being trans seems to be their's.
They are wrong. They are racist and wrong. I will say it again: it takes a special kind of ignorance to conclude that they are correct but are wrong to be so bitchy about it (specifically when it comes to harming afabs, somehow?).
I can sum this all up by saying two white people pulling each other's hair are just that, two white people - one does not get more "White points" for pulling harder. Society may reward them for the pulling, but their status as White remains static.
Sorry if that is insulting. You can just call me an Angry Black Wo/Man next time.
i was recently reminded of this woman i saw on tiktok sometime in this last year or so who was talking about how she had heard from other trans women how wonderful it is to date trans men, she goes on to express her upset because we’re never interested in her, and she asks where are the trans men who want to date the dolls. her comments were flooded with hundreds of trans men talking about how much they adore trans women and love to date trans women. she makes a follow up video. she says you misunderstand me, i am looking for a real man. all of you are nice but you’re all too feminine. where are the trans men who look like real men.
and yet she wonders why we have no interest in her, it must be because trans men don’t want to date trans women, the fault must be with us. the concept that it could be because of her doesn’t even cross her mind.
she was not asking for trans men who love trans women, she was asking for a completely cis passing, patriarchal man, who happened to share transsexuality with her.
and this thought has bumped into another thought in my head, about these trans women who say they are simply women asking for support from the men in their community. a deeply understandable request that i see trans men meet with joy on the regular, gusto even. and yet, they look around and go, no trans man is supporting us, no trans man is supporting me. and i’ve stopped in my tracks in this moment because, support isn’t whats being asked, is it. that’s why the support given is dismissed entirely. what’s being really asked for is worship. it’s servitude. and anything less is seen as a failure at our social duties of chivalry. a failure of our manhood. a failure to uphold our side of the patriarchal bargain it has been implicitly assumed we must have agreed to in the first place.
a third thought has been bumped into. the few trans men these women do surround themselves with, are without a doubt, in every instance i have seen, viscously misogynistic towards other trans men and transmasculine people, and deeply benevolently sexist towards trans women. that is what is given the seal of approval. that is what is required. anything less than looking up, anything less than that high pedestal that unconditional worship guarantees will never crack and fall, anything less than feet kissed and sexual favors freely given, anything less than a doormat, a punching bag, a sex toy, is akin to community abandonment to them.
these are not feminists. these are patriarchal trans people who believe that their transsexuality inherently makes the misogynistic structures they partake in progressive and radical. but they are nothing more than dime store lackeys to the patriarchy, and frankly, should be dismissed accordingly.
I have a theory about this, actually, at least when it comes to white trans women (who by and large seem to be the biggest offenders when it comes to this type of behavior). It's something that's very difficult to put to words without sounding like a raging asshole but I do think there's some merit to it. My theory is that the reason so many white trans women—particularly young, freshly out of the closet, chronically online trans women—are Like That™ is because they are scrambling to regain the protection of white maleness they weren't aware they were forfeiting by transitioning.
The protection whiteness provides to a cisgender white man is fundamentally different from the protection whiteness provides to a cisgender white woman. This isn't to say that the protection of white maleness is unconditional, because it isn't. But the fundamental difference is that, at the end of the day, white AMAB people are born with the protection of whiteness. They can lose that protection by failing to comply with societal expectations, but it is still something they lose. And, a white cisgender man will never lose all of the protections of being a white cisgender man, despite what many white cis gay and neurodivergent men will tell you.
On the other hand, white AFAB people are not automatically born with the protection of whiteness. Instead, white AFAB people have to earn the protection of whiteness by complying with their own oppression through gender-conforming behavior (IE Not Being Queer Or Trans Or Fat Or.........) and, critically, by wielding the power of white supremacy and patriarchy against others, primarily queer people and people of color. But because white women are by and large conditioned from birth to earn that protection, you never see a white cisgender woman in the wild who doesn't have it, at least to some extent.
What that means is that your average white trans woman in all likelihood has no idea that the white cisgender women around her are playing a completely different game. The white trans woman has been raised to believe that the game is simple: comply with your gender role, and you'll be fine. She doesn't want to comply with the white male gender role anymore, but that's okay; if she sinks all of her time and energy and resources into transitioning into a perfect example of the white female gender role, she will be treated just like a cisgender white woman, with all of the power and privilege of whiteness that cis men have (except, y'know, the normal misogyny that white women willingly endure day to day in order to hold onto white privilege).
The problem is that that's not how it works. For trans people, once the cat's out of the closet, there's no reversing it. White supremacy and patriarchy will never accept a trans person, no matter how perfectly they comply with their gender role, because that's not how the game works. A trans woman will always be seen as a man who forfeited manhood, and a trans man will always be seen as a woman who failed at womanhood. (Note the use of forfeited vs. failed; that matters.)
So now you have a bunch of white trans women who are realizing that transitioning isn't all it was cracked up to be in the sense that they aren't being accepted as white women, no matter how hard they try to play the role, and they're all finding each other online and sharing their experiences. And because they're white, they think that being denied all of the power and privileges they think other white women have as their birthright is the highest form of oppression a human can experience. When in reality, those white cis women were always in a much more precarious situation than white cis men and are just collectively really really good at not rocking the boat, a boat the white trans woman will never be able to board to begin with.
And, because compliance isn't working for these white trans women the way they thought, they move right along to step 2, which is to wield the white privilege that they do still have (because they do still have some! just not as much as they thought they would, which to a white person is the same thing as being oppressed!) against other queer people and people of color. The end result: a generation of chronically online white trans women who think and act like tradwife mean girls.
@thesunlightmuse This is wrong. This is so wrong I'm amazed anyone who knows anything about Intersectionality could say something like this.
You are confusing White Supremacy with Patriarchy. The privilege that comes with Whiteness means being favored by White Supremacy for one's skin color. A person can lose some Patriarchal privilege by being queer and breaking gender norms, but the concept of Whiteness is based in history and heritage. There is nothing an individual can do to change their history and heritage.
You are confusing Male Privilege with White Privilege. An individual who appears cis, hetero, and male can lose Privilege upon being revealed as not those things, but their Whiteness will always be seen before their Queerness.
On the other hand, white AFAB people are not automatically born with the protection of whiteness. Instead, white AFAB people have to earn the protection of whiteness by complying with their own oppression through gender-conforming behavior (IE Not Being Queer Or Trans Or Fat Or.........) and, critically, by wielding the power of white supremacy and patriarchy against others, primarily queer people and people of color. But because white women are by and large conditioned from birth to earn that protection, you never see a white cisgender woman in the wild who doesn't have it, at least to some extent.
This is beyond ridiculous. Again, you are confusing Patriarchal Privilege and White Privilege. A person does not earn the protection of Whiteness, they are gifted it by virtue of being born white. Using White Women's Tears against Black men does not earn them White Privilege, they have the ability to use their tears against Black men because of their White Privilege.
I am sorry but being transmasculine is not "failing to achieve Whiteness". A queer female-assigned white person has an advantage over a cis-hetero-male person of color by virtue of their heritage. This does not get canceled out by being queer. Since y'all like reading, please read about the history of white queers leaving queers of color behind. This is Not On Trans Women.
People of color are born second class citizens, male and female and everything between, because of the oppression of our ancestors. It is beyond ignorant to say being assigned female and/or experiencing misogyny is the same. It is not. Patriarchy is a Tool of White Supremacy, not the other way around.
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pls support trans girls and trans women who like traditionally masculine things
no seriously please reblog this ive seen so many posts saying to support trans boys and trans men who like traditionally feminine things and those posts are good!! i love them!!
but i have never in my life seen a post saying to support masculine trans girls and trans women or trans girls and trans women who like traditionally masculine things and its really important to understand that showing support for trans women in any form is just as important as showing support for trans men so please, please reblog this.
support trans women and trans girls. support trans women and trans girls who like traditionally masculine things. trans women and trans girls who like traditionally masculine things are not any less valid than trans women and trans girls who don’t!!
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