Tldr: Undertale is basically Dark World/Light World but fused together after the titans are summoned in Deltarune. Basically when theres nothing left but darkness due to the prophecy's insistance in there being "one ending", new things emerge in basically another big bang. (The world of Undertale)
Ralsei knows they cant win against the titans because if the prophecy only having "one ending". They lose. The world "ends". But is.. reborn. The darkness permeates and creates a new world where darkners and lightners dont exist, but their abilities are reflected in the monsters and humans that inhabit the world. It basically does another big bang.
Merges lightners and darkners into the two species we know in undertale (humans/monsters), hence why both humans AND monsters can use abilities thatre synonymous with undertale while specifically in the dark world
Then the undertale plot continues as usual. Idk how sans gets there, but maybe theres a glitch or some shit where bros sent into the future, could be the same glitch / thing that happened to just dissolve gaster later on, I wouldnt be surprised if gaster just got shattered into deltarune too while he was at it)
Once everything is basically recreated, but wrong. And with different rules. (Remember that deltarune monsters bleed, undertale ones just dust. If sans is from deltarune, it makes sense why hes the only one who bleeds)
Also. Ralsei mentions "The Angels Heaven" when talking about the titans. We are the angels. If we're the driving force (SOUL) that ends up.. surviving through both the Deltarune and Undertale plotlines, it makes sense that Undertale could.. even be called the "angels heaven". Because we, who played through deltarune, led it to be created. Anyways:
But sans is the same one from deltarune. He remembers what he lost, could be part of why he just does NOT know about the resets, but he can tell a lot based on expressions instead. He never had to live with resets happening, but also his determination is super low so he wouldnt remember them anyway (hence why flowey can remember them)
Anyways. We're the angel in deltarune, but we're also the angel in undertale. In both games we're piloting a "vessel", as we never have a choice in who we are in these games (toby put extra emphasis on this for deltarune since people clearly didnt Get It with undertale (dont even remind me with how people treat Chara like theyre evil.. when they have YOUR name you put in. Its supposed to represent YOU being evil since the soul made a literal child kill the entire population))
Dont even get me started on how the save points in both deltarune and undertale are literally the faces of the titans dude
Hey so I made this theory a while ago and uh. I think it might be true even more now.
CHAPTER 5 SPOILERS ESPECIALLY WEIRD ROUTE AHEAD, DONT LOOK IF YOU HAVENT SEEN IT!!
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Dude. Oh my god. When I say I had a brain blast when realizing some things. Okay. I need to figure out how to put this into words.
Notes:
I still think Undertale is a universe that basically scrambled Deltarune into a new reality. i have MORE things to back this up now.
I think i know how sans got sent into Undertale/the future. even MORE evidence to back this up.
Ok. so. Weird route. You (and Kris) go into the lake with noelle and drown. What do you need to cross the barrier in undertale? A human and monster soul. The "barrier" here could also be the barrier of the game world... out of bounds. noelle and kris have never seen the edge of the lake. Because the game confines it. its somewhere that we cannot explore. its forbidden.
Presumably, kris and noelle drown, consider their souls fusing and having that power. to escape. But also consider: kris is dead. Remember how we made a vessel? That is suspiciously kris shaped? Well...... in the weird route, we might actually get..our own vessel. Kris's dead body. its gray and pale, looks like kris. The background of the vessel creation is also underwater. Kris is always fighting back against the soul doing things, but if kris is dead? we could just.. pilot the body. with nothing stopping us. we get our vessel, but at what cost? Is it really worth it?
back to sans, he gives us bread- an item that CANNOT be removed from the inventory by any means. this is also the first chapter where (specifically in normal route) hes shown being able to screen wrap teleport, using the games mechanics for himself, just like his teleporting in undertale. He doesnt do it in the weird route, I assume because he is a REQUIREMENT for continuing to meet noelle at the lake. Bread leaves breadcrumbs.. you can follow those, but theres also a glitch in specifically earthbound, where the "Bread" item allows you to clip out of bounds.
...Crossing the barrier. Into out of bounds. out of this world.
I think sans intended on using the breadcrumbs to "teleport" to where you and noelle are, and after violently brute forcing it with the soul to keep going despite drowning, he tries to "teleport" or travel to you, but it.. breaks. it glitches. He cant teleport to somewhere that doesnt exist. So it sends him into the undertale timeline, whether its future or not. I actually think its both the past and future.. with both of the games being a paradox with each other, and being able to be "played" in any order.
Also not to mention, sans looks a lot like what we (assume) is gaster. Of course, theres theories about their relation and of course the name correlation, but what im thinking is: IF deltarune is a creation of Gaster, or the being who talks to us in the beginning and if we die in the Knight Fight, i think sans was unironically created BY GASTER to thread Deltarune and Undertale together, to avoid everything falling apart into nothing.
Think about it: Why is sans a skeleton? Skeletons are associated with human beings, and specifically being inside of human beings (because.. bones. of course). he also looks visually similar to who we assume is gaster. Deltarune Gaster (just going to say that for ease of explaining for now) has the ability to allow us to create a vessel. Well, assuming a vessel is a "human".... he could easily just.. not have the flesh on a vessel. It passes as a monster well enough. But hes juuuust barely not a monster. Why can he teleport? why does he break the fourth wall? why does he know about things he shouldnt? why doesnt he question kris not even really knowing who he is, but saying so anyway?
I think about how in undertale, sans is also the ONLY character in that game, besides literally FLOWEY, that can break the fourth wall and the rules. I think Sans may have been specifically "created" to know these things. to know the world is a game. A lot of what he says in his genocide fight in undertale is about the game world, timelines stopping and starting, and blaming the player, the SOUL, for this. the same soul thats piloting kris in deltarune. He KNOWS about it. he KNOWS the logistics of the game and uses it to his advantage to have fun, or be funny. (or give Kris bread in weird route)
Think of jevil, knowing the world is a game and just using the opportunity to fuck around and have fun and do whatever because.. nothing in life matters!
Sans has the EXACT same attitude, especially in deltarune, but in undertale he uses it MUCH more to cope. In deltarune hes just fucking around and switching to different booths during the festival. Bamboozling people. Trying to be funny. Telling you to leave so he can change things.. (like the clopen sign, or the teacups)
Have you noticed, that it requires a SCENE TRANSITION, with the player NOT there, for him to do things? And he does things thatre completely useless, for a bit. Because its funny. If the world is a game, why not just make funny jokes? Block a door to a store thats open. Nobody can shop anymore. Tell Kris and Susie to leave so he can put up different signs.. do you think he just had those signs already made for the bit? I think with his knowledge of the games functions, hes just harmlessly editing something that wouldnt affect anything. Sure, make the sign look like your face, who cares.
Also i want to remind you, that in both weird route and normal, you give Sans the drawing of the three of you, and he puts it in his pocket, intending on giving it to his brother.
.....And thats the one in undertale. He didnt get the opportunity to give it to his brother. Whatever happens that gets him into that universe, that place, where he was literally described as "randomly showing up", happens right after kris and noelle presumably drown.
speaking of, im actually wondering if papyrus is even... REAL, in deltarune? Sans talks about him, but i dont think hes ever name dropped, just mentioned to be an introvert. NEVER seen outside. What if hes a darkner????? and with papyrus NOT bleeding when killing him in undertale, and being the ONLY. the ONLY character that gets fully beheaded from his body BEFORE fully dusting, makes me genuinely wonder if hes even related to the deltarune sans. With him also wearing battle armor, his entire skeleton body is covered up by clothes, aside from his head.. the ONLY part that survives a bit after being separated. (Unsure if hes still wearing any extra layers in his dating outfit in undertale, but either way, its hard to tell what exactly his body actually looks like.
And... if monsters dont even bleed in undertale, and they just dust, was papyrus just.. created for sans out of pity? Because of sans being alone? Ripped from his own world? Someone to motivate him into not just.. drowning in despair?
if gaster has the ability for us to create a vessel, even if unused, literally WHAT would be stopping him from making another creation based on himself to support sans. I dont see gaster NOT caring about his creations, more like hes an onlooker to see what the hell we're doing. And with sans having so many connections and just.. KNOWING things that he shouldnt.. and also canonically being a scientist as well??
(not to mention the reason i think the "order" of the games is a paradox, just think of this: Gaster explodes in undertale by falling into his own creation. shattered across dimensions. He creates "survey program" for us. the player, to play with. We play it, and it loops back into undertale being created. A paradox, because how can undertale exist before gaster got shattered? Thats the point. It shouldnt. but it does.
The order is different for different things as well, so i dont think its as straight forward as "its a sequel/prequel" as its a "parallel story" as toby described it iirc. Like with asriel being college age in deltarune, and asriel being.. well, a child (even if dead) in undertale. Rudy being alive in deltarune, but dead already in undertale. The war between humans and monsters. Its like deltarune, but to the left a bit. A bit scrambled up. Same characters, same-ish world. Familiar, but not.
The shelter could even be thought of here. A hole in the ground, to go underground.. to hide... to be safe. What the hell happens in there? It sounds a lot like the plot of undertale...
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Ok im just gonna say it.
i genuinely think that sans is a "secret boss", in the deltarune terminology. Let me explain:
You have to go through weird and strange criteria to be able to even fight him (killing everyone and sparing a SINGLE person is enough to not fight him. even killing his brother.)
Deltarune bosses ALL have gimmicks in their battles, and ALL. i mean ALL of them break the traditional "battle" formula, and know TOO MUCH.
Jevil: Go through a lot of shit to get the keys, out of your way with seam as well. He LITERALLY randomizes RNG for your actions, plus final attack just removes the bounding box for the soul all together
Spamton: fetch quest in the background thats completely optiona and missable. Snowgrave requires EXTREMELY SPECIFIC things to happen that reminisce of undertale genocide route. Grows huge, distorts the area where you dodge, changes the soul yellow
The Knight: do everything perfect and exactly the way it needs to be to even have a chance against it by getting the mantle. (but possible, just barely, without.) Literally uses a cutscene to swoon everyone EVEN AFTER LOSING. Kris does more damage when theyre the only one left, not a normal mechanic
Gerson: Go everywhere around chapter 4 to get the piano music. Makes you green, doesnt allow you to heal, only lets you use susie, dodges every attack similar to sans as well
Mew Mew: same as gerson but completing small challenges to buy the pink key at the shop. Did you see her fight?? she made it a dating sim with USES PAPYRUS'S DATING HUD FROM UNDERTALE. the green strings on her hand, turns you purple of course as well
...
Sans: ONLY. AVAILABLE. if you EXACTLY. PRECISELY. Kill EVERY. SINGLE. MONSTER. In the underground. (Which is also represented in the chapter 3 minigame as well). Not a SINGLE spare. Is the ONLY character in undertale that can fully abuse the game mechanics BESIDES Flowey, attacks you from within the menu, teleports using screen transitions, forces a black screen when he needs to leave, which could also be seen as forcing a scene transition to happen JUST to leave. He also changes the soul to blue of course, which isnt unique to sans, but is a reoccuring theme with some deltarune bosses.
He is also known as the single most DIFFICULT character to beat, even to this day. of course people can have their own opinions, but people still say that sans is one of the most difficult bosses to beat in undertale, even compared to deltarune, often even being compared to the Knight. a LOT of the time, when i hear someone say "its harder than sans", it INSTANTLY gives an idea of the difficulty level if youve beaten him.
THIS IS LITERALLY THE SAME EXACT CRITERIA AS SECRET BOSSES IN DELTARUNE. and with the games being SO VIOLENTLY LINKED TOGETHER. I really really think these theories are on the right track
Sans is a DELTARUNE secret boss, but sent into undertale before he got a chance to be fought in deltarune. He could even have been
"intended" as a secret boss for chapter 6 or 7, explaining his intense difficulty as well. And everyone KNOWS of sans as being a """secret boss""" in undertale. that you can ONLY get to by doing super secret playground rumor shit.
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mega summary for what im theorizing:
Undertale is a prequel and a sequel. the time loops. it always does. there is no end.
Deltarune happens, which makes Undertale happen, which makes Deltarune happen. Its a paradox. Sans HIMSELF is a paradox. And he knows it.
Sans was a deltarune secret boss that was isekaid into the Undertale universe. Specifically weird route Deltarune.
Despite STILL wanting to kill him with hammers, I actually love Flowery as a character and was very fascinated about him. The fact he is kind of a manic dream pixie Rudy couldn't escape our observations and my partner @kuukikookie doodled up some flowery faces if that mirrored a bit more physically. Varying levels of rudyness, with extra flowers on hair to top it.
I do like the tooth gap. Makes him slightly... Gap moe.
Obviously spoilers for chapter 5 of deltarune, you've been warned!
I just want to say, I've been thinking about the chapter a LOT. I beat it the day it came out, trying to be extremely thorough, and spent 12 hours straight on it and streaming it to my partner.
My first initial reaction to Flowery: I hated him. I even hated him for like, the day after up until last night. I didn't like his design, I didn't like his personality, I hated that he ragebaited people, and tried to replace Ralsei. Its when I first drew him, and started noticing the comparisons to Rudy, and realizing all of the parallels between Asgore's personal life, and people he knows, reflected in the flowers "darkner" forms...reflecting his coping through using nostalgia.
My first initial reaction to Spamton: I also hated him. Well.... I didn't HATE him, but moreso was amused by him existing, and wished he wasn't so... ugly? I thought he was ugly as hell, and he also kicked my ass and I lost to him several times in the initial meeting with him. I thought his music was a banger though.
For both of them? I let the chapters sink in, and I drew them. (Though i completely missed the Spamton Neo fight and had to replay it. I couldn't even tell that Spamton was asking me to go to his storefront, because I didn't understand his speech quirk at all.)
Let me just say. A character that everyone hates at first, will genuinely become one of the most popular. I'm 1000% expecting Flowery to have an explosion of AUs and similar things as Spamton did. I even felt my own thoughts changing about him, the more I realized that he was 100% meant to be a parody and HEAVILY idealized, AS a distraction from reality. Especially with his.... uh...... "images" finding their way into our key items, and the anime intro.
LOTS MORE ANALYSIS UNDER THE CUT AND ALSO GENERAL CHAPTER 5 ANALYSIS BC IM INSANE:
For Spamton, his trauma and lore genuinely wrapped around to making him one of my favorite characters in a LONG time. Honestly? Maybe EVER for me. As someone who has so many OCs based on him. The stuff that I was forced to accept because even though I didn't find him "appealing" at first, made me genuinely love and appreciate those things more about him. I hated his nose, I hated how "ugly" he was. But now? Genuinely, I ADORE those features about him. I love that hes
"ugly". I love his enormous stupid nose and face shape. I love that hes inconsistent. I love how he talks and his lore, and I loved him at the end of chapter 2. Chapter 3? Made me love him AND Tenna even more. I don't even know if I would've liked Tenna as much, if I didn't learn to love Spamton first. Its part of why Im so happy that the release chapters were staggered, and not released all at once. It gives time to actually experience the game and characters and time to think about them. to breathe. to accept things. To consider things.
Flowery? Of course hes brand new, but a lot of the thought I had are similar to my initial reaction to Spamton. Disliked him, wanted him dead (jokingly. more like wanted him to leave). Didn't like looking at him. Sure, hes funny, but he made me upset because it's not what I expected whatsoever from the chapter.
I'm not someone that tries to guess what Toby is going to do. Because I know NOTHING that fanon comes up with would be close to Toby's vision. And yet at the same time, with next to no expectations, other than "plant dark world", Toby blew my expectations out of the water. I never would've expected HUMANOID "darkners", let alone ones just trying to pretend to be humans. At first? I even talked to my boyfriend about how I was unsure of the chapter. Unsure of the characters. I didn't like it because I'm, frankly, not a huge anime/manga fan just in general.
My perspective changed (heh) when getting the feather. Instantly made me LOVE the gameplay of the chapter. Not even the characters at that point, but the gameplay. It was unironically a jumpscare, but it definitely uplifted the unease of how it was making me feel. The whole chapter felt... wrong?
Before my adhd brain forgets: I need to mention how crazy it is that toby managed to literally emulate getting lost in fantasy as a coping mechanism. Like. The day being great, Rudy getting hurt and running to check on him, and then distracting the player so much with the dark world and its themes of escapism via nostalgia and "the good ole days" that by the end of the chapter. You literally forgot about rudy. Kris doesn't even let you go into the hospital to check on him. I literally forgot to even check this after I escaped the dark world and had to refight the boss because there was just.. so much to take in. The entire chapter is about distraction. Especially Flowery being like "dont worry about the real world, we made you your perfect world. Don't think about your kids and wife, and how much they hurt you by leaving. Dont think about it. Stay here. Stay busy. Dont think about it.
The whole chapter feels incredibly overwhelming, and I think its on purpose. FULLY on purpose. It literally EMULATES escapism by the way its written, and succeeds in making you forget about the things in the Light World for the time being.
Susie, at the end of the chapter, even says that it didn't sink in until she realized that real people (light world people) were getting kidnapped. Were going to get hurt. Its so easy to get lost in fantasy....... that you detach from the real things you care and worry about.
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Ok before i forget AGAIN. heres a ramble of some parallels i noticed regarding the nostalgia theming:
Ex: Aqua looking nearly identical to Kris, but her being a child, along with red accents that mirror the little horns that Kris used to wear as a kid. Of course Asgore would reminisce on this.. and of course, her having a fascination with knives and playing with them. In the Cafe as well, Kris can interact with her and even dress up as her when she asks. Dare I say, it may also be a reflection of Kris's journey about discovering they were nonbinary as well, because a child wouldn't have a grasp on that kind of thing yet, they would just... BE that. Especially with how Aqua was asking about names, choosing names, etc. with Seth.
Flowery is of course rudy. Look at their talking icons, identical (but flipped) hair, same expression, theres even a single expression where Flowery has his eye open and his smile is crooked and IDENTICAL to rudy's smile in his talking sprites.
...also holy shit my partner pointed out that Asgore says "He fell for Toriel's crooked smile"... Toriel doesn't have a crooked smile. It's Rudy.
Yellow and blue could represent the "good ole days" of pure and unfaltering love. Yellow even thinking he deserves to be punished for his "crimes?" is LITERALLY asgores survivors guilt with dess's disappearance. Yellow is also a cowboy, associated with the time period of dess's disappearance, and being with his family. its a time before everything broke. Blue, could represent toriel (and tbh also with him being male, could represent asgore's repressed interest in rudy), and even him just being there and consoling yellow INSTANTLY cheers him up and "fixes" him. Its what asgore thinks will happen with him. The collecting evidence. Showing it to blue. "Proving" himself. THAT is what they represent. ...Also, the whole reason that Yellow wants to punish himself? Is because of a misunderstanding. Asgore misunderstood what other's intentions were. He thought they blamed him. They didn't. But the misunderstanding drove him to doing what he is now. He believes he should be punished. Gone. Maybe even killed, like how Dess was presumed dead. He "deserves" to be put in jail. Oh. and friendly reminder..... Yellows whole schtick is "Justice". Yellow needed Blue to be patient with him and actually communicate with him in order to put the anxieties and fears to rest. To not punish himself anymore. Its both an example of what could've happened if Asgore just.. talked to Toriel. And let things go.... but its also showing an "idealized" version of what he thinks would've happened.
That scenario with yellow and blue? It could've been him and toriel... IF. That happened early on. But in the current day? Its too late. But asgore is holding onto that hope- being lost in the nostalgia of the past- to realize that his hopes of returning to That Point are unobtainable
Seth feels like alphys because of gender fuckery with alphys's development (alphys being turned into a girl mid development for undertale) but also crushing on asgore/having a fascination with being smart.. ofc theres anime tropes, but. Could also be a manifestation of kris discovering their gender as well. Not everything needs to be an exact light world equivalent, considering theyre representations of the human souls items as well, but considering its meant to be a "perfect world" for asgore...
I think green could represent how he feels about toriel, especially with the cooking aspect.. them being mute? Likely because he doesnt want to hear..NOR, remember any arguements and yelling they had together. Greens the best one btw. love them
pink is mew mew doll and mad dummy. shes perfect. also insane kris and spamton parallels but ill save that for later
also i studied psychology and sociology in college and my god it is opening my mind. can i also just say. thank you to toby fox for literally every single chapter of this game helping me overcome trauma that i repressed so severely i didnt even know it existed until this game literally pried it out of me. holy shit. actual masterwork
ok i have literally so much more to say but i need to unscramble my brain about it. all in all. insanely fantastic chapter. even though at first i was on the fence, i think it was the point. dont even get me started on the tv in asgores room, or how ralsei/susie are constantly referencing their first adventure
A triumphant return!! My favorite flavor of spamtenna is easily the post-canon "despite everything it's still you" type thing, so I will humbly request more delicious food if you are up to cooking that :)
I think about him having the same mannerisms he’s always had and Tenna being one of the few to notice it. And I think about Tenna thinking about that.
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