Weird, still haven't found that part where George was like "noooo dark fantasy royal women nooo stop that you can't do that dark fantasy royal women, you're girls and all girls should be friends and never fight like dem boys do all the time" I looked everywhere, guys
I really enjoyed Rhaenyra and Alicent as characters. I mean, was I supposed to not enjoy the cutthroat rivalry between two powerful, rich, entitled women who would burn the whole world down for their families and have the absolute audacity to salivate at the thought of destroying their enemies?
It's so funny how the show seems to completely trust Mushroom's pornbrain account of events, except when it comes to Nettles (who doesn't even exist in the show) or absolute lowlife scumbags like Hue and Ulf.
Nettles has got to be the showrunners' sleep paralysis demon: bonds with a dragon without any "superior blood" (gasp, the horror), cucks their one true qween (which is solely on Nyra's creepy ass hubby), exposes her racism by just existing, lives free while their fave ends up in dragon dung. Yeah, traumatized Dany stans wouldn't have survived that. I'm willing to bet that Nettles' removal from the story was the first order of business, they were never going to bring her in.
The way it's implied that Daemon's feelings for Nettles are some true love shit because she's not as young as the girls he's used to molesting (she’s 16).
Book Daemon's whole personality not being some edgy fanfic male lead manchild took me by surprise, not gonna lie. Turns out, he had genuine connection to people in his life besides precious Rhae Rhae. You know, like people usually do outside of Condalland. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Rhaenyra "the love of his life", that's either Laena or Nettles.
I will never take show Mysaria seriously after reading the book. I mean, she’s boring and pretentious, so I pretty much forget about her existence half the time, but wow, they really made westeros diddy a fighter for women and children’s rights. That’s embarrassing.
Book Aegon loved Aemond a lot more than his brother loved him. Doesn't change the fact that Aemond's betrayal in the show makes zero sense, and you know what book Aemond doesn't do? That.
Man, Aegon's post-munch arc is dark. as. fuck. Him watching Sunfyre die, his solitude, the unfathomable pain, his quiet return to the capital. The motherfucking burning of the Shepherd and his followers. Oh my god, what if something happens? What if Ryan and Sara just leave hotd for any reason? What if TGC will be allowed to devour all these scenes? What then, what would we even do with our lives?
jk the smallfolk will storm the Dragon Pit inhabited by actual man-eating dragons because of misogyny or something. And not because they were starving, isolated, and terrified out of their minds under Rhaenyra's rule. Then it will never be mentioned again and the show won't even attempt to tackle other characters after her death. Alicent will probably poison Aegon on Dragonstone and steal the rest of his arc.
I was so ready for the Mad King Aegon II Targaryen, I was not prepared for the "pay me money for your betrayal, oh and that toddler usurper will be raised in my castle" Aegon II Targaryen. C'mon man, you could've at least killed Mushroom.
People arguing over which queen is more feminist while completely sleeping on Gaemon's mom and her gf, rip legends
Aegon being granted a dignified death despite all the humiliation he has suffered
Cregan Stark ratio'ing everybody and being the only adult in the room (literally)
It would've made a lot more sense for either Alicent or Aegon (preferably Alicent) to be the main protagonist of the show. And I don't mean Condal's idea of a protagonist, just the central POV. Make Rhaenyra a wet-eyed victim, whatever, but don't butcher such a grand story down to her tiny ass arc. She spends at least a full third of it in mourning for her children and that's exactly what CondalHess chose to focus on for the better part of s2. In a show that's supposed to be the prequel to Game of Thrones. You know? THE Game of Thrones? Well, sucks to suck.
Mysaria is Sara Hess’s self insert in season 2. That’s why she was casted as a pretty Asian woman, completely whitewashed, and turned into Rhaenyra’s lover.
And out of all the people she chose the human trafficker lmao
Oh wait, did she read the books? Does she know who Mysaria is? Or did she just find out there's a woman in Rhaenyra's court and assumed the usual "victim, feminist, can do no wrong"?
Probably the latter. I don’t think Hess ever read the books, especially not Fire and Blood. She wasn’t part of the original writing team until the eleventh hour when Rhaenicent was injected.
Mysaria was actually a white af blonde. She was Lysene with Valyrian features and was the second coming of Tyanna of the Tower and the predecessor of Melisandre. Making her an underprivileged woman and the mouthpiece of the smallfolks when in the source material, she was a mere dancing girl in KL. She is the one who instigated Rhaenyra against Nettles. She is the one, according to Mushroom, who suggested Alicent and Helaena be sold to brothels and be forcefully raped and impregnated as punishment. Rhaenyra and Mysaria were clearly racists in the book, but the feminist side cannot have that.
"So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch."
Accept it. He said Lyanna's name.
you're so in love with me it makes you stupid, happy valentine's day <3
They need legitimate help 😭 the greatest love story that ever was and they’re clinging to that little app made by GRRM’s racist bestie for dearrrr lifeeee 😂
@targcore I've only seen her make those posts in response to the constant anon hate she get when it comes to Elia. And she refer to it as "not canon" because we still don't know if Rhaelya was actually romantic. We still know nothing of their relationship and it still doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar and Elia were canonically married with children. That's the point.
I agree that D&D ruined storylines of Cat and Sansa in the show but I feel like GA would hated them even if their original lines would keeped. Personally I dont even find early show!Sansa annoying. She was a teen girl. People are just mean. Im not going to say that everyone should love early Sansa. Of course, no, it is ok to dislike some characters. But I remember how people literally HATED her and always talked shit about her. And I find creepy that most hated character was naive teen girl.
I don’t care if the GA would hate them as long we have fleshed out characters. I don’t find early show Sansa annoying either but I was thinking D&D changed her character to make her palatable to the audience, then I read @gwidhiel‘s reply to my post and now I’m wondering if it’s the opposite, that they wanted to make people hate Sansa. Tbh show Sansa is very tame, she was understandably angry at Ned and it seemed like Arya was OTT mean to Sansa instead of the other way around so I was always confused as to why she was so hated but I realised it’s because Sansa was feminine and had a crush. It’s such a petty reason to hate her but here we are
@sayruq I think that the show’s removal of Sansa’s more interesting qualities are a big clue about how the show writers intended her to be viewed, particularly by the portion of the audience who didn’t already know Sansa from the books. Since they couldn’t give us characters’ internal monologues and allow us to decide for ourselves how much we sympathized with each of them, they gave us easily recognized stereotypes with widely accepted, predetermined (un)likeability. This allowed them to garner audience interest and support for the journeys of the characters whom D&D thought would be the most interesting/important throughout the story. They were wrong about how important Sansa is, and that’s why they fumbled in their presentation of her in early seasons. They thought she was dispensable.
We’re meant to like and sympathize with Valiant Tomboy Arya right off the bat, and in S1 Sansa is framed as an easily recognized antagonist to the Valiant Tomboy - the Shallow Spoiled Brat who isn’t actually nearly as talented and wonderful as the Valiant Tomboy is. I don’t think the widespread dislike of Sansa was solely because she was feminine (although some of it undoubtedly was) - I think a lot of the audience was reacting to what they were shown, and what they were shown was a sadly diminished, negative version of the bright, lively, caring girl we got to know in the books.
i honestly think her femininity had a lot to do with it. she’s pretty tame in s1 which confuses me when you say she’s antagonistic to arya because they only argue a few times and d&d didn’t write arya as an underdog facing off against a bully. to me they made sansa dumber in s1, she basically had no concerns or an inner life of her own. so she was feminine, had a crush on joffrey and she wasn’t presented as intelligent and that’s why the general audience hated.
You see this happen quite a bit in the fantasy genre where a feminine woman is “broken” only to rise up with a weapon, a jaded attitude, and a taste for violence. Or they become secondary characters to badass chick, who is the one carrying the weapon and the jaded attitude. Or worse, cannon fodder for tragic backstory and motivation. We are routinely presented this idea of being “Not Like Other Girls” and their violence as feminism. That’s why characters like Dany, Brienne, Ygritte, and Arya are considered champions of feminism even when they’re extremely violent and dehumanizing. They’re even used as mouth pieces to put down softer characters and invalidate their strengths. (For GOT, this happened way more in the show than in the books.) People confuse masculine traits as feminine strength so there’s not place at the table for characters like Catelyn, (book) Ellaria, Elia, or Sansa. They’re accused of being weak, useless, pathetic, and not feminist because they don’t adopt masculine or violent traits. This is reinforced by tons and tons of fantasy genre stories.
the fandom keeps calling feminine characters like sansa and catelyn ‘not feminist’ or even ‘agents of the patriarchy.’ as long as female characters perform masculine acts, they’re apparently good characters (or strong female characters). imo no character on the show or in the books are feminists, they can have feminist moments but none of them concerned with the wellbeing of all women but it’s ridiculous that only the feminine characters are excluded and treated as harmful.
the part about feminine women becoming warriors or sidekicks or cannon fodder is interesting because sansa, catelyn (in the books at least), cersei, etc don’t fall into either category. no wonder there’s so much hatred and confusion in the fandom when it comes to these characters
It never even occured to me that s1 show Sansa could be considered more palatable than bookSansa - But she was easier to digest to be sure, because they made her a lot more of a one dimensional spoiled brat.
ShowSansa excluded Arya and lighed when she got in trouble with the septa (oh wait, no she didn’t!) - BookSansa tried to include her, tried to cover for her and didn’t laugh.
ShowSansa wanted to be queen and begged her mother to make it happen - BookSansa did no such thing.
ShowSansa showed up and scolded Arya for not wanting to put on a nice dress and go see the queen - BookSansa was asked to find her and make sure she was properly dressed by the septa who couldn’t be bothered to do it herself.
ShowSansa was a brat to her septa - BookSansa did everything in her power to try to please the septa. And everytime she made the slightest misstep she was accused of being near as bad as her terrible sister.
BookSansa was the embodyment of the straight A-student who’s made the early decision to be “the easy child” and then does everything to live up to that. Her one act of disobedience happens when she thinks she’s done everything she was supposed to and was still being punished
And the list goes on. The very first scene with Sansa and Arya sewing was the first time I thought “wtf are they doing, framing Sansa like the antagonist to brave, innocent little Arya like that?”
As for hating her for being traditionally feminine. That is totally what people are doing, and book-only groups are doing it as much as those who only watched the show; some of the more ressourceful book readers make up other excuses too, like that she apparently bullied Arya and singledhandedly caused her self esteem issues. But mostly it’s just that she is weak, pathetic, naive, always needs others to rescue her, is a traitor and a liar. The amount of hatred an 11 yo girl can get for being traditionally feminine and inhabiting the role she’s supposed to fill without struggling against it is the truly most scary part of ASOIAF/GOT fandom to me.
Boom, @gwidhiel and @falconstarfall went and said it. I find hating on Sansa, a fictional preteen girl, to be kind of extreme, but show!Sansa never stopped irking me because of, as I found out upon reading the books, liberties the show took with her character for seemingly no reason, such as making her rude and bratty to authority figures in her life like her septa, who in the books she’s absolutely not like that towards. Instead, she tries her best to please them because she’s sweet, innocent, and starry-eyed and wants to be the perfect lady. The book iterates that fervently in her earliest chapters but for the show that seems to be kind of in one ear and out the other. Book!Sansa has a more quiet strength and bravery to her than the outright badassery that an unfortunate many fans seem to wish she had because they see that as the only kind there is, she’s traditionally feminine and compliant with what others want from her without being an archetypal Damsel In Distress™ or it stagnating her character development, her inner monologue in the books helps to make the reader more understanding of her actions, her character development happens slowly but surely rather than her going from a helplessly brutalized victim to a hardened, regal pillar of power in the blink of an eye à la the show’s Black Wedding (both of which are extreme and overused clichés for female characters). But people seemingly can’t appreciate that, and the show went and not only made her a one-dimensional Spoiled Brat™ but butchered her delicacy and femininity because apparently we can’t have any middle ground or complexity, this girl has to be either a badass or a damsel, no in between. 😐
It’s a shame because I get the sense that GRRM wants readers to appreciate the varying levels of both strength and softness in his female characters and how smoothly they can coexist (my sister hates how the show made Dany all serious and pretentious all the time, while in the books she lets herself be silly and girlish sometimes since, ya know, *she’s 14*). Personally my favorite character was Catelyn precisely for that balance; all her life she fit the mold of the dutiful daughter, wife, and mother, but she did it from her heart because she cared for her father, sister, husband (despite that he hadn’t been her dream boy when they married), and above all others her children, who she loved with all her being until the bitter end. ❤️
@falconstarfall and @impudent--strumpet fair enough, however. I feel like D&D finally made Sansa more book accurate from season two onward. She became very kind and lovely and truly became more of her book counterpart. I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM said to them “hey knock it off! Sansa is important to the series and you’re making her look OOC.” And that’s when they changed her. You can see the changes throughout the rest of show series.
it's funny how antis bring up sansa "comparing" Jon to Joffrey because she told him "Joffrey never let anyone question him, do you think he was a good king?" after he got mad at her for questioning his authority (she clarifies that she thinks Jon is nothing like Joffrey), yet everyone is silent about the fact that he said it sounds like Sansa "admires" her abuser, Cersei. What Sansa said is apparently so awful and crosses the line but what Jon said about Sansa admiring her abuser is totally fine
honestly they always accuse sansa of doing things that jon does. jon sold the north, jon doesn’t trust his sibling, jon had to be bailed out by sansa, jon gave his support to a violent blonde woman even after she showed her true colours.
jon literally excused genocide and yet somehow sansa is worse than him.
All of this is true! But why is Dany’s hair color mentioned at all? That was weird. If she had dark hair would that have been brought up? Also aren’t Targayeens white haired?
Do you think Tommen is going to die like he did in the show? Will Cersei be responsible for her children's deaths?
that is a possibility but i think he'll be murdered in a similar way to rhaenys. in the show, myrcella was poisoned and right now in the books, tyene has been sent to infiltrate the faith so myrcella might get poisoned but joffrey was also poisoned. 2 of cersei's children getting poisoned while the third one gets stabbed matched grrm's love of setting a pattern of 3 and then subverting the 3rd one. myrcella could get poisoned and live long enough to die in cersei's arms. maybe even as cersei is escaping from the red keep.
still i don't think myrcella will be poisoned. something about that doesn't seem right to me. myrcella was maimed on her head, she's a smart and tough kid, she's not afraid to stand up for herself. idk if she's being set up to die by being poisoned or if she's set up to die fighting her killer like rhaenys did.
also cersei being present when myrcella dies doesn't seem right. cersei has been focusing so hard on making sure that tommen doesn't die that i feel like she'll be present when he dies and someone else will be there when myrcella dies. maybe someone like jaime. myrcella has the maturity to talk to jaime about the incest rumors and it would be just grrm to have jaime bond with one of his children only for that child to die moments later.
ok i'm starting to come around on the poisoning theory. it will likely be much more subtle than the tv show. areo and doran suspected that tyene could poison with just a touch and while that didn't happen, it always felt like chekhov's gun. a pov character will see the most innocent look septa with blonde hair touching myrcella and every reader who remembers tyene's introduction will start to have an inkling of what is going to happen next.
Agree with all of this. But question, why was Tyene’s hair color mentioned? What did that have to do with anything? Could have just said “pov character sees innocent looking septa touch Mrycella”.
As a barrister, I see many victims of domestic abuse being sued for ‘defamation’, for daring to speak about what their perpetrator did to th
As a barrister, I see many victims of domestic abuse being sued for ‘defamation’, for daring to speak about what their perpetrator did to them. Meanwhile, the world questions whether they’re a ‘real victim’ | Charlotte Proudman
“If she was scared to death, why didn’t she leave?” asked everyone’s favourite Hollywood heartthrob-turned-bad-boy Johnny Depp in court.
He was talking, of course, about his ex-wife Amber Heard, who he is suing for libel in the US over an article she wrote for the Washington Post in 2018. During her testimony, the actress has accused Depp of physical and sexual abuse.
If Depp’s phrase feels familiar, that’s because it is: survivors, families of victims and domestic abuse campaigners have worked tirelessly to stop society using such victim-blaming tropes. Instead of asking a woman why she didn’t escape abuse, ask the man why he abused her in the first place. That would be a good place to start.
Escaping an abusive relationship is one of the most dangerous times for victims. Just because the relationship ends, it doesn’t mean the abuse ends. Post-separation coercive and controlling behaviour is one of the most insidious and corrosive forms of abuse that I’ve ever seen.
Depp lost his defamation claim in the High Court in London in 2020. He was greeted with adoring fans throwing roses at him, blowing kisses and holding supportive banners. I stood next to him after we passed through security, he smiled and I gave him my best dead eyes.
The judge later found that Depp physically assaulted Heard (including headbutting her, tearing out clumps of her hair, and holding her by her neck) and she said she had feared for her life. Depp is alleged to have sent texts to his friend, Paul Bettany, threatening to burn Heard and “f*** her burnt corpse afterwards to make sure she is dead”.
It is telling that Depp is dragging Heard through a second high-profile trial in the US, hoping for a better outcome. He is suing her for a whopping $50m – this looks to me like serious financial control.
Both cases in England and the US centre on silencing Heard from speaking about the abuse she says he inflicted on her. I see many victims of domestic abuse being sued for “defamation”, for daring to speak about what their perpetrator did to them.
The world sits in judgment, questioning whether Heard is a “real victim”. Does she look like a victim? Does she speak like a victim? Does she cry like a victim?
Where are the headlines asking if Depp is a perpetrator, judging him on every move that he makes? There are no special measures in court – Depp sits there smiling, while Heard relives abuse and trauma.
Depp’s lawyer is used as a pawn, a weapon to revictimise her for the world’s entertainment. The court has become a tool for a perpetrator to continue his abuse and control. What message does that send out to victims? Victims who don’t have money, fame, photos of injuries and texts threatening to harm them? How do they think they will be treated by the justice system?
The court is asked to pathologise Heard as being “abnormal”, “mentally ill” and “mad”. All too often, victims of domestic abuse are labelled with sexist diagnoses such as “histrionic and borderline personality disorders” by psychologists, rather than understanding that they are suffering with trauma caused by domestic abuse. Heard is no exception.
Dr Curry, a psychologist, suggested that Heard could have two personality disorders, while Dr Hughes diagnosed her with post-traumatic stress disorder. But why isn’t Depp pathologised? Where is his mental health diagnosis?
After all, this is a man who explained his abusive behaviour by calling himself “the monster”. Every headline that has commented on Heard’s mental health has stigmatised people with mental health challenges, while simultaneously undermining the credibility of victims who come forward.
Heard is due to be cross-examined by Depp’s team. I can tell you now how that will play out because I see it every day in courtrooms: “Why didn’t you say no? How drunk were you? You provoked him. You were abusive. It’s your fault.”
These questions blame the victim and render the perpetrator invisible. It’s a tactic that continues to be very effective and persuasive, because it plays on all of the myths we are taught about how abuse works. She lies; he’s a hero.
So, when I see hashtags trending on twitter like, “AmberHeardIsALiar”, I realise how deeply entrenched misogyny is in our society. It doesn’t matter that there is a High Court decision proving that Depp assaulted Heard, it wouldn’t matter if the world watched Depp physically assault Heard in public, people would still support Depp. Why is he above the law?
Is it because Depp is the definition of masculinity? Every man wanted to be him at one point. If even he can be a perpetrator of domestic abuse, with all the fame, glory, money and power that he has, it sends out a strong message to men that anyone can be a perpetrator of violence. Anyone can fall from grace – even you.
@atheism-populism-egalitarianism And here we have found the abuse apologist, misogynist piece of shit! Even with all the actual evidence that was proven that Amber Heard was the victim the whole time and Depp was always the abusive monster, people like you will STILL blindly support him. You are literally the walking definition of what this article was talking about (and you clearly didn’t even bother to read it). Go crawl in a hole and stay there.
[image description: five still images from the tv show black adder with white subtitles.
First, a pale man with tightly curled blond hair and a white mustache looks down at a woman and says:
“You don’t want to marry this jerk, baby! Meet me on my horse in eight seconds”.
Second, the woman, who is pale and has brown hair in bun, says:
“But I can’t run in this frock! You see, I find I actually prefer wearing boy’s clothes!”
Third, the man looks like he’s thinking hard, his mouth comedically open wide. The woman looks up him expectantly as he says:
“Weird, I always feel more comfy in a dress!”
Fourth, he looks at the camera and says:
“I’ve got a plan! And it’s as hot as my pants!”
Fifth, we finally see the pair in full body. They have switched outfits, so that the man is wearing a long golden dress with intricate beading. The woman is wearing black tights and pants that puff out around the thighs. The man holds a lit explosive while the woman holds a match. She smiles gleefully and he yells victoriously:
“So long suckers! Next time you get bored of your lives, give me a call and I’ll come round and kill you!”.
@nonbinaryezrabridger the woman has brown hair???? No, it’s clearly blonde, as in darkish blonde. People tend to forget there are many different shades of blonde hair, and her hair is not brunette. You can see it from all angles but especially from the back you can see the blonde colour.
Are you fucking kidding this is why aliens should be begging us to join their Starfleet. The precision?? The CONTROL?? The absolute mastery this driver has over their 20+ ton of steel is superhuman. This person could weave a mothership through an asteroid belt without making a single scratch on the hull. Foh “aliens don’t want us” aliens should be sucking our dicks.
I know you were fine with the Steve’s letter, but do you think it’s understandable why many of us had a problem with it? It very much read like a “I’m sorry you’re so offended that I didn’t tell you about your parents and and I’m sorry if you feel I did something wrong even though I believe ‘I’ was right.” It just didn’t seem sincere. As someone else had said it was more of a “non-apology apology letter”.
Sure, I mean, anyone can feel how they want about it. I don't think my interpretation is the end all be all for bascially anything. I'm not someone who looks at Steve and feels that there is an insincere bone in his body, so I'm sure that colors my perceptions.
@cluegrrl but Tony wasn’t really trying to kill them. You could tell he was holding back. Now Steve on the other hand went WAY TOO damn far. Especially with smashing his shield into his chest, when there were other ways to get him to stop. And people seem to forget that Tony’s reaction in Siberia was completely understandable. He just saw for the first time how his own parents were brutally murdered and his parents killer (even though he was brainwashed) was standing right in front of him. Anyone in his situation would have lashed out. And if Tony wanted to use that burner phone he had every right too. Steve betrayed him and went against 100′s of nations because he was too arrogant to admit he was wrong.
Well actually natural blondes can have dark and thick eyebrows. Eyebrows and hair don’t always match. But I am curious what OP is talking about. What specifically do fake blondes have that natural blondes don’t? Lol
Although there are plenty of elements of the final season of Game of Thrones that failed to truly communicate what they were meant to, one of the most unfortunate stones that was left almost completely unturned was the relationship between Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.
A Song of Ice and Fire author George RR Martin clearly loves creating foil dynamics between many of his characters, and one of the most interesting and politically relevant is between Daenerys and Sansa.
Obviously A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones are both high fantasy tales about dragons and direwolves, but one of the most fascinating and layered components of the novel story is the political machinations and points of view that occur between and within the characters themselves. And if the trajectory of Sansa and Dany's character arcs are any indication of where things will be going in the future, then it's obvious that these two are meant to diametrically oppose each other in a vital philosophical way.
One of the most interesting ways in which George RR Martin has made Dany and Sansa into foils of one another is their specialness. Although this obviously doesn't have a political component on it's face, it's incredibly relevant when it comes to their development as people, and ultimately forms their socio-political perspectives on themselves on other people.
Although it is one of the biggest reasons that Sansa is arguably one of the least popular characters among the A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones fandoms, Sansa is largely a very interesting protagonist within the story specifically because she is not special. Whether it's extraordinary intelligence, incredible martial prowess, or literal magical powers, nearly every main character in A Song of Ice and Fire is extraordinary in some way. And fascinatingly, despite the fact that Sansa obviously had a magical warg connection to Lady just as all of the other Starks do with their direwolves, George RR Martin specifically went out of his way to take that away from Sansa. He essentially went out of his way to make her into an entirely normal, helpless girl.
When looking at her in comparison to Daenerys, it's not hard at all to see the way in which they're meant to contrast each other from the very start. Sansa and Dany are both initially used by someone else as a means to a specific end. Sansa has a supernatural connection to a magical creature that is almost immediately snuffed out, leaving her without even a shred of defense. But in contrast, Daenerys metaphorically gives birth to magical creatures that become the foundation of her power as an individual.
And, although neither of them has a particularly easy time going forward from these points in their storylines, it seems to be this difference that drives their character arcs in the polar opposite directions. While there are plenty of different types of power exercised in different ways throughout both the books and TV series, ultimately, Daenerys becomes the purest and most intense representation of hard power in the story, while Sansa becomes the purest and most intense representation of soft power.
After the death of Khal Drogo, Rhaego, and the births of the dragons, essentially all that Daenerys really has is herself. But, because she has the dragons, that at least puts her in a position of power, into a position where she doesn't actually need anyone else, at least not anyone who can match her in terms of power. If someone stands up against her or contradicts her goals or desires, she can basically strongarm them into doing what she wants. To be fair, there are instances where she tries to resolve disagreements without force, but ultimately she always has that to fall back on, and in most cases, she does.
This position of power, of course, influences her relationships with everyone she comes into contact with. Yes, she may encounter other people who are also powerful, but none of them are ever as powerful as she is. She might delegate some of her power to others, like Jorah, Barristan, or the Unsullied, but they are all ultimately just tools in her tool belt and she is the one wielding them. And if anyone attempts to stand against her, she just kill them as she did in Astapor, she can absorb their power as she did in Meereen with Hizdahr Zo Loraq, or she can coerce them, as she has done with her Dothraki followers from the very start.
This is a key element of Daenerys' trajectory as a character in A Song of Ice and Fire, and it is unfortunately something that the TV series went out of it's way to avoid in order to keep the big final twist a secret. However, by doing that, the series also lost a huge facet of Dany's characterization, the overall story, and the political nuances that George RR Martin went out of his way to integrate into the larger narrative. And unfortunately, Dany isn't the only one to suffer from this fate.
Because what's interesting is that, despite the fact that they don't really know of each other's existence, Sansa occupies the exact opposite position that Daenerys does. Like Dany, Sansa's family name and birthright comes with power, but it's not power that Sansa ever gets to wield herself. That clearly won't always be the case, but because she has no extraordinary talents, skills, or powers to protect herself, she is used as a piece in many other people's political games. And unfortunately, she has suffered a great deal because of that.
Sansa exercises the small amount of power that she does have, but in the vast majority of instances, her power has been co-opted and used by someone else, and in nearly every instance the people using her power have horrifically mistreated her and used that power with the intention of putting her and all of the people who come along with her claim into submission.
Although the book version of Sansa is still stuck in the Vale and relatively powerless, one of the key components of her story now and what will likely be a game-changer for her in the future is essentially that she can't accomplish anything without the help of other people. She doesn't have anything super special to build her foundation of power on, so she needs to make connections with others in order to accomplish things or become a power player in her own right.
But obviously, because of everything she has gone through and the ways in which her power has been utilized by others who have bad intentions towards her and the people that her power affects, a hugely important aspect of her character development also involves being able to discern who is a good ally and who is a bad one.
She's also not in a position to be politically aggressive, and pretty much every person that she has to build political relationships with is someone who is in a position of power over her, so subtlety and judiciousness are key components of what she is in the process of learning in A Song of Ice and Fire right now. Her only real means of empowering herself require her to persuade others to help her or develop enough of a relationship with them to convince them to join her cause.
And unfortunately, Game of Thrones seems to have completely lost sight of that fact for the sake of making Sansa into an attractive, aggressive victim instead.
Obviously and understandably, one of the most consistent complaints about the TV series is the ways in which it deviated from the book story. But in the cases of both Daenerys and Sansa, their character journeys were altered to the point that they likely became functionally different characters from their book versions. And therefore, by the time they came face to face, the ways in which they are meant to directly contrast one another were almost completely lost, and instead of their rivalry being based on totally legitimate differences in political perspective, it was largely focused around Jon Snow.
It would obviously be wrong to negate Jon's importance in the overall narrative, as well as his importance to Dany and Sansa in particular. However, the natural discordance between Sansa and Daenerys exists completely outside of their interactions with Jon, and it is one of the most worthwhile political conflicts in the entire story, so it's a shame that Game of Thrones essentially completely ditched it in favor of a quicker storyline and some catty girl on girl drama.
In fairness to the TV series, the self-determination question wasn't left completely untouched. However, the show did go out of it's way to essentially mask the fact that while Daenerys believes wholeheartedly and completely in her birthright, her claim to the Iron Throne directly contradicts the will of many of the people that she's conquering in Westeros, particularly in the North. Daenerys typically wants to see herself as a liberator and savior of the people, but in this instance, she is not their freedom fighter, but their conqueror.
This is, of course, one of the most important issues that Dany is going to be forced to confront in the books, and it's a shame that the show completely eschewed that problem in favor of making Sansa into the scapegoat for this issue, and by framing Sansa as an irrational bitch for not wanting Dany to be her queen.
It's incredibly unfair to Sansa as a character, but it's also a ridiculously unsettling political point of view to take on as well. I mean, Sansa spends nearly her entire story being used and horrifically abused by people who want to take power that is legally supposed to be hers, and then she's painted as an evil political mastermind because she isn't falling all over herself to surrender that power to another power-hungry person who she doesn't know and who, from her perspective, is using the immediate mortal threat to her and all of the people that her power influences as a tool to force them all into submission. Most normal people wouldn't hand everything they have over to a complete stranger because they promise that they'll take good care of it, and in Sansa's personal experience, literally every single person who has forced her into the position that Daenerys is forcing her into has treated her horribly and used that power for malevolent means.
Ultimately, it would be outrageously out of character and completely unbelievable if Sansa immediately bowed to a new ruler when it's her caring, trustworthy, and honorable brother who is being usurped by the new big boss in town. And frankly, what makes Game of Thrones' ending so hard to believe is that Sansa seems to be the only major character who dissents against this takeover.
Because, aside from Sansa's character growth going in a direction that will clearly oppose her to literally anyone trying to conquer the North or claim it as their own, one of the biggest fundamental questions and indications that Daenerys might not be the hero of the story is that Dany's belief that she is entitled to Westeros does not, and should not, supersede the will of the people.
As both book readers and show watchers will know, Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the Iron Throne is actually pretty tenuous, despite the fact that she believes herself to be the last Targaryen. In the series, Jon's claim was likely better than hers, and in the books, Young Griff is also a factor. But what really matters here more than anything else, or at least one major theme that George RR Martin is likely trying to get at, is that people have the right to self-determination. People have the right to choose who rules or governs them.
Game of Thrones partially set themselves up to acknowledge this issue with Jon becoming King in the North, but they almost entirely sidestepped it and fast-forwarded the storyline so that by the time Dany actually had to confront the idea of any people in Westeros not wanting to follow her, she was already burning King's Landing down.
Game of Thrones also largely tried to paint the issue of Jon being King in the North and the conflict between Daenerys and Sansa as a personal one. And yes, there was a personal component to it because of the feelings involved, but to ignore the political importance of Daenerys taking Jon's crown and Sansa fighting for Jon to have it really diminishes the story and their characters as a whole.
Because, while many viewers perceived Sansa as a manipulative, power-hungry politician in the final season, the reality of the situation doesn't seem to paint her that way at all. Interestingly, although she obviously wants Jon to have power instead of Dany, Sansa's goals are also in line with the will of the people, even though those goals partially negate her own power and claim as well.
It's easy to lose track of these realities given that the audience knows a great deal more information than the characters themselves do, but when Jon is proclaimed King in the North, he is essentially usurping Sansa's claim as well. As far as the world knows, Jon is a bastard while Sansa is Ned Stark's oldest trueborn child, so when the Boltons are defeated, the right to the Northern throne is primarily Sansa's, at least in the TV series. And again, although the TV series presents Sansa as the key to victory in the Battle of the Bastards, Jon is given credit for it and that is considered to be one of the primary reasons for the Northmen declaring Jon as their king.
Ergo, if Sansa actually wanted to press her claim, she had the means and power to right then and there. She had the support of the Vale and the legal system of Westeros was on her side. And yet, she supported Jon's rule over the North when essentially the only thing that he had in his favor was that the people chose him to rule. Essentially, she supported the will of the people to decide who ruled them, even though that ruler wasn't her. So the notion that she disliked Daenerys right off the bat simply because Dany had the power that she wanted doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
And, if Game of Thrones had actually been paying attention to the books and had an interest in adapting them somewhat faithfully, this would have been a key element of the story at large. Even if Daenerys were the greatest hero of Planetos and was a completely unimpeachable benevolent queen, her right to rule the people didn't supersede their right to choose who ruled them.
It's obvious that the TV show avoided confronting this issue for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, if Game of Thrones had shown literally any other protagonist character aside from Sansa resisting Dany's world domination, then it likely would have been a pretty significant hint that she wasn't the hero of the piece, which in turn would have diminished the shock value of her actions in the penultimate episode.
Secondly, confronting that kind of deep issue would have been intense and complex, therefore it was basically impossible for the series to actually tackle it with any kind of seriousness in six episodes.
But thirdly, and potentially most importantly, confronting this problem likely would have undermined the story that Game of Thrones had told thus far. Because ultimately, the main characters of the book series lost a great deal of their dimensions in the translation from book to screen, and by the time the final season had come along, they had presented Daenerys Targaryen as a pretty straightforward and unambiguous hero, which clearly is not the case in A Song of Ice and Fire.
At present, the Dany of the books isn't necessarily an outright villain, but her rule hasn't been nearly as easy, her intentions haven't been nearly as benevolent, and she has had to at least face the problem of what should be done or what she wants to do when people who aren't pure evil make it clear that they don't really want her to rule them either.
In contrast, Game of Thrones built Dany up into arguably its most heroic character, who almost exclusively wants to hurt the bad guys, free the world, and save everyone. Ergo, to acknowledge that anyone who thinks that their own desires are more valid and more important than the desires of the people that they seek to control could be villainous would largely undermine the narrative that the show spent the seven prior seasons building.
It unfortunately should come as no surprise that Game of Thrones chose to stick to typical television narrative conventions before pulling out their ultimate shock value twist, but Daenerys, Sansa, and the entire importance of their political storylines is massively diminished as a result of this choice. And, the fact that the show tried to paint their extremely valid and important disagreement as a cat fight over a man is just the cherry on top of that shitty sundae.
The only thing I don’t agree with you is saying that Sansa looked like a “power hungry irrational bitch” in the show. Quite the contrary, she clearly showed that she didn’t like Daenerys for GOOD reasons and that showed in the show. She didn’t want a conqueror to subjugate her people and she wanted the North to remain independent. And you could see all that in the show. She also wanted Jon to remain KitN and never wanted power for herself. So because of all of those reasons I’m confused by what you mean the show turned her into a “bitch” when she had every rational reason to go against Daenerys.
I'm curious to what you think of Tony. Do you think it was fair for Bucky to be at Tony's funeral, when they unfortunately never mended anything between them and he killed his parents? And what do you think of Stony?
It’s funny how EVERYONE makes jokes about “sucking my dick”, even by people who don’t have penis for genitals. But no one (not even men) make comments like “you better eat my pussy”. Oral sex on pussy is always ignored and that’s really sad.
Mirri being an older, plus-size, WOC, whom wasn't described as attractive in D's eye (But she's biased racist so what does she know?) definitely made the White-staning GOT fandom see her as a Wicked Witch compared to Blonde Fairytale Princess D. The racist tropes were all there. I think even if they had used other racist cliches and made Mirri a young, slim, and beautiful WOC, she still would have been demonized as this exotic femme fatale that ruined D's happiness out of jealousy or whatever.
Dany constantly told the reader how unattractive Mirri was. I think a lot of Dany stans saw it as a reason to feel unsympathetic towards her.
Well anon, first, Dany’s hair was not blonde, it was white. And second, why does it matter what hair color she had? Why mention it? Why not just mention her skin color when that is what is more important. Would you mention her hair color if she was brunette?
Am I the only one that hates how people that ship Tony with someone other that Steve always make him seem like a jealous bitch? I personally ship Ironstrange, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like Steve. I can see why people would ship stony, (even thought I DO think that fame died after infinity war/endgame) if you ship Tony x Strange, or Tony x idk other people that are shipped with him, be nice to Steve he did nothing wrong.
I don't know where you got the idea the ship died after Infinity war/Endgame. But I can guarantee you it most certainly has NOT. Stony to this day is still just as popular as ever. And is still one of the most popular ships in the MCU. People STILL write fanfic and make fanart all over the place.
Good GOD! Idk if you watched Lovecraft Country but the denials and excuses pouring in after the finale for the white blonde, daughter of a mad man, ally when it suits her and a "fuck everyone I got my goals" narcissist the rest of the time PSYCHOPATH is almost exactly like the ones for Daenerys. Even more disturbingly they continue to ship her w the WOC she manipulated and blame the POC characters for not bending to her will because she wasn't "evil-evil" &"not racist; she hates everyone!" Tuh!
Hey anon what does her hair color have to do with anything? She’s no different from any other white racist who treats POC like crap, so why single out hair color? If she was brunette would you have brought that up too?
