going to start as usual with a ridiculous oversimplification: there's a lot going on with the Western/modern construction of "childhood" as a state of Edenic innocence that we 'lose' after our own taste from the tree of knowledge. particularly the tension between that story and the reality that childhood is a period of real vulnerability and very often distress and trauma.
it's easier for everyone, including all of us grown up former kids, to look at that with rose-eyed glasses. but in the media that seems to most effectively pull at nostalgic heart strings, there is still this core of sadness under the surface. the 'knowledge' that marks childhood end can be kept simple and still ache: understanding the inevitability of change, death, separation, or even just that the world can be cruel.
but that's still ignoring that many kids start to learn all of that pretty early.
the pitch Stranger Things is aiming to hit with this is certainly the Stand By Me "I never had any friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve" boys on bikes and it's hard to argue that's not a mode the show excelled in let's say through s3. but s1 and s2 also seemed to get what Stephen King and Steven Spielberg understand, even if it's just subconsciously, about how part of what makes for a compellingly rendered kids' world onscreen is including the danger and violence lurking on the edges. except on Stranger Things that maybe has only been for certain characters?
in s5, they maybe were gesturing toward something with nature vs nurture where there is this violence that can be unlocked in the hearts of kids too? because the big reveal of Henry's villain origin story is an assault that started as self defense but became extremely graphic before anything supernatural entered the mix. and his band of kidnapped ten-year-olds turn against Holly not too long after while under his thrall.
this gets weird when they wake up and don't even seem to care. thanks for calling me a bitch, choking me out, and pushing me down the stairs, see you in Mrs. Harris's homeroom on Monday!
I am a sensitive baby about certain flavors of onscreen violence, and I have struggled since s3 with the way Hopper is living in his own guns and torture gritty action movie while the the rest of our cast is existing in a more action adventure less grounded place with all that. but I think the escalation of the brutality in s5 from El, Will, whatever was going on with Mike and that bomb, and then even going there the kids with 0 reflection from anyone on the protagonist side does signal a lack of thoughtfulness around this stuff that I had been sensing anyways. which does make whatever they were trying to do with this fall even flatter.
and tbh Lord of the Flies isn't really my speed when it comes to questions of human nature regardless?
yeah, it's shocking and horrifying but...to what end?
the relevant gesture that does work for me, shocker, is what they do with Robin and Will. not all of us are afraid of the tree of knowledge.
Robin's speech to Will in the tunnels and how Will puts her lesson into action gets us as close to the Spielberg Romantic heroic child whose power comes from seeing what adults cannot anymore. there is a soft core within us that we become disconnected from as we live in the world, and finding that again gives us access to the special and unique perspective kids inherently possess.
but the most powerful thing is maintaining that special primal kid openness and capacity for joy and wonder alongside maturity, responsibility, and the knowledge that comes from experience. integration.
and once again, they gesture towards this with Will and also Max, looking at a child in the throes of an experience they have been unable to forgive themselves for. older and witnessing it from the outside, they can see it for what it really is.
and that sets them apart from Henry, who looks at himself as a child and learns instead that kids are weak and vulnerable and distancing himself from that is the response that still lets him feel powerful.
but then...it all comes back to Mike. and El being shackled to him means she doesn't get even a halfhearted version of this this season (at least she had Nina in s4), it's just 'we can't let them make more of me' and everyone talking at her about what her future could look like but she doesn't get to properly weigh in.
even with El though, at least I get the underlying emotions despite the lacking execution. trauma, self determination, cycles of abuse, etc. with Mike, what are we even exploring?
there are two moments in s1 that are the obvious candidates for his initial bite at the apple: seeing Will's fake body (pushing him to his s1 low point in "The Body," very clearly named after the Stephen King novella adapted into Stand by Me) and then El saying goodbye and sacrificing herself.
the later seasons do seem to have him trapped in a trauma response to the latter, "I can't lose you again" repeated ad nauseum and our various flashback montages in s5. but pulling Mike back front and center in the final act to return right back there just illuminates how muddled this was from the jump. (into the quarry...? I'll see myself out)
Mike's faith that Will is alive is rewarded because he is correct and they save him. so there is no puncturing of his childlike belief there. El appears in Mike's life to give him hope, act as his first brush with romance, and then dip to teach him ... ???
Gordie in Stand by Me and and Bill Denbrough It are dealing with the deaths of their brothers. Elliott in E.T. is struggling to adjust after his parents' divorce and his father leaves. even in broader childhood's end tellings like Narnia we've got an inciting incident in literal war (the Pevensies find the wardrobe in the home they're evacuated to from London in World War II) and part of Wendy's reticence to grow up in Peter Pan is a sort of general Victorian era alienation and also that she thinks her dad sucks. Nancy is the one who expresses feelings like the latter, not Mike.
this being about any real world analogue for loss falls apart when it all amounts to "El is the magic of childhood and she has to leave." Mike is sad he loses El because he had to grow up, not that the process came with something painful he had to integrate into his self conception or a new understanding about the world from an actual challenging experience (like maybe your ET girlfriend being her own person or her having to leave and you choosing to stay because sometimes that's what has to happen, oh wait we're making her death both something that is happening to you and all about you so n/m).
and then "I believe" is a return to his childlike faith in Will's survival in s1 and an extremely transparent Peter Pan reference so I guess that's Mike's version of integrating the wisdom of his inner child into the adult who has now experienced loss?
for me, being a suburban boy who turns 12 just isn't enough, especially when you're surrounded by a cast of characters with struggles that have actual complexity and an emotional hook. but maybe Mike getting to co-opt those journeys as "the storyteller" was always the inevitable endpoint when you look at who is telling this story. there's a cycle for you.
regarding all the comments about how snl was poking fun at the writing of the coming out scene, not will himself. "they're making fun of how long the scene was." like okay, the scene being too long as a criticism... how long should it have been? 2 minutes? 1 minute? ofc homophobes are going to claim it was too long, bc they wanted it to be as short and take up as little of their 80s nostalgic show as possible, not bc they had legitimate reason to think the scene was too long.
i need people to get a clue, stand up, and realize when people are being cruel and laughing at them, not with them.
the snl jokes about vaginas looking like a demogorgan, about having sex with max who is just laying there as if in a coma, and about will's coming out: they are not laughing with women and queer people. they are laughing at women and queer people. stop making it easier for them. stop excusing it and insisting that we're in on it.
Just an fyi, actors have denied scketches in the past, I just think some of you want to keep this illusion up about him.
Anyway, that sketch was homophobic because it’s not mocking any of the grievances people had with it, it’s mocking the generalised content of a coming-out and the content of being gay. In 2026, in this current climate, can we be fucking for real? There’s a difference between queer people vocalising not liking the context behind or the presentation of the scene vs making homophobic jokes & mocking how long it took him to come out.
A better joke would’ve been to have cast members do impressions and show up midway through, but an even better joke would’ve been to not touch it at all if Noah wasn’t involved. It’s not funny when the person being mocked isn’t in the room to laugh with you.
snl are known for punching down: see Aimee Lou Wood having her teeth mocked to the point she had to call it out for bullying. I’m hoping someone does the same for this skit.
Not to mention using a transphobic writer’s story as the crux of parodying a queer story, then mocking that very story too. Just all around really fucking weird, please stop infantilising a 23 year old who absolutely gets to choose what sketches to do.
I'm so confused by people thinking that HP skit is there because Finn is gay. It's a skit making fun of gay ships because being gay is funny. Gay sex is funnier. Shipping is even funnier. Everyone wanting him to be gay is funny. Gay people are an easy punchline. There is no other punchline except...gay? This is like the most mid white boy humor. What's so difficult to grasp about this concept people were ready to jump Gaten when he compared byler to other crack ships and said it was...funny.
"It’s a joke" I don’t care. the audience review bombed that episode because of that scene, it’s the lowest rated episode when the finale is right there! they’ve spent all this time making jokes about will’s bar scene with jeffrey dahmer!!
this just opens the door for people to mock the scene even more, to mock will, because they’re mocking will, not the situation, not the number of people in the room, not the writing, but the fact that will is gay, just like they did in s4.
and the actor who plays him, who is also gay and has talked about how badly he had it while filming that scene, isn’t even there. but his co-stars, who have a habit of sidelining him and have said and done questionable things are there. and please don’t say they didn’t know, they know the show, they know how things go, and even if they didn’t write the scene, they’re still the face of the episode.
I am really curious about what Duffers planned to do with that painting before writing Season 5, especially since Will and Mike’s romance was seemingly never part of the plan. At some point, they probably realized that to close so many storylines, they needed to avoid addressing the lie if they wanted to preserve a tragic romantic finale for Jane/El and Mike. In doing so, however, they once again undermined Will’s coming-of-age arc.
Giving Mike that painting was a selfless act of unconditional love, as well as a coded confession. By not allowing Will’s truth to come to light, the writers essentially convey that his taking space would harm others, so he needs to remain silent. Instead of being seen and recognized, Will’s desires are minimized for the sake of a greater good. In a story about his self-acceptance, agency, and right to take up space, Will ends up self-erasing because his truth is inconvenient when it affects a “bigger” romantic payoff.
Yes, the entire painting plot feels like a poor choice if they always intended to have it end in rejection. Will’s love is used to teach Mike how to be a better boyfriend, while Mike and Jane/El’s relationship is placed on life support by Will’s unrecognized feelings. This storyline clearly exploits Will’s pain and aestheticizes queer suffering. By not allowing recognition and truth to surface at all, the story actively undermines what it tries to convey about Will’s journey - he endures in silence and ultimately disappears instead of choosing himself and setting clear boundaries.
It seems obvious that all of this is done to avoid creating conflict between Mike and Jane/El. Season 5 has time for action, a ridiculous love triangle involving Nancy, Jonathan, and Steve, as well as random kids and Murray’s jokes. However, there’s no room for Mike and Jane/El to unpack how they “fixed” their problems. Mike would need to confront the fact that his relationship with Jane/El was “saved” by someone else’s hidden love, which would force both Jane/El and Mike to reassess their bond. But the Duffers appear to prioritize the tragic, star-crossed lovers moment set to “Purple Rain” before Jane/El’s sacrifice over that development. Their relationship remains hollow, but Mlvns seem satisfied and are even imagining Jane/El giving birth in Iceland in a few years, so I guess all is well.
It is a mystery to me why the Duffers gave Noah that painting as a souvenir, considering it primarily served as a tool for stabilizing Mike and Jane/El’s relationship rather than Will’s growth. If I were Noah, I would have thrown it away :)
“The SNL joke about Will’s coming out scene is the fault of the ST writers. If they hadn’t butchered it then people wouldn’t be making fun of it.” Be fr right now. People are always looking for an excuse to drag Will’s emotional scenes through the dust. People meme-d his season 3 plot. They meme-d the van scene. They took the end of Sorcerer and made a million unoriginal jokes about Will wanting Mike so bad “he became El.” It could be a cinematic masterpiece and people would be finding a way to make a joke of it. Do you really think the swarms of people hating on that scene and making fun of it are all doing so because they care about meaningful gay representation ?
It would have been super intriguing for El to fall behind in the final battle because she's trying to save Kali rather than leave her behind. El deviates from the plan and insists she get Kali to a hospital. Recruiting Hopper in this would force him to prioritize El's needs over his own and see Kali as the young girl she is who is deserving of love too. Once they get to the hospital, it would be too late for El to stay in the wormhole. Kali and El's love for each other ends up saving them against their own will. El doesn't end a superhero, she ends as a human who loves her family. Kali doesn't end a victim of the government as she feared. As her wound heals, Kali gives the military a vision of El's death. They can start anew.
This would also open the door for the group to rely on Will instead. He would be the main component in the confrontation of the Mind Flayer and Vecna like it felt like the season was building to. Will and El constantly swap places within the narrative. The group underestimates Will, but they overestimate El. We expect El to be the major factor in the battle and sacrifice herself, so when Will defeats the villain and dies in the process (and is revived, of course), this defies our expectations. It feels more earned.
“He’s just my Tammy” bothers me because they pick and choose when Will’s feelings are considered deep.
The reduction of Will’s love to a crush is disingenuous. Do I think Mike deserves devotion from Will? No. Do I think it’s disrespectful to treat his love as superficial when he suffered over it for so long? Yes. It could be interpreted as Will dismissing his own feelings to protect himself, but the narrative doesn’t frame it this way.
While I do think the "heart" pedestal Will puts Mike on is an example of Will holding onto things of the past, his feelings should've been handled with more nuance and care. This doesn't come across when Mike is included in what was supposed to be a Tammyless film reel. The constant contradiction is frustrating.
Mike is similar to Tammy because Will hinged his self-worth on him. Will understanding that he’s not a mistake outside of how Mike views him was very necessary. This was something I had hoped for even when I believed byler would happen. The problem arises with how Will's feelings for Mike were used in the past.
When Will is using his love for Mike to fix Mike’s low self-esteem and his relationship with El, it’s powerful. Will’s love is deep enough to be piggybacked off of to save the world. But when it’s time for Will to accept himself and his sexuality, suddenly his love is the equivalent of a hallway crush. Queer love is only profound when it benefits a straight couple, apparently.
This is made worse when Will is patting Mike on the back about El’s safety in the next episode. if Noah hadn’t requested the tower scene, this was going to be the first and only time they interacted after he came out. Will is once again a cheerleader for a straight ship. After he reduced his previously powerful pom-poms to a crush. Right.
Then you have to pair this with how they said Robin and Vickie broke up because they're just a high school couple, as opposed to the other (straight) couples whose love ran deep. Not only does this imply that both queer characters experience love on a lesser level, it also demolishes the hopeful foundation of Will's romantic development.
Will's main query this season centers around him getting over his Tammy so he can find his Vickie. Instead of a graceful exit in his love for Mike, he's given hope last minute with Robin's speech about signals, only to be embarassed with a subtle rejection. Will thought Mike was his Vickie despite never suspecting reciprocation in the past. But now he's just his Tammy! Time to move on to better things.
But Vickie isn't the end-all, be-all either. Robin and Vickie don't stay together. When we see Will's future with a boy in a bar, we're meant to believe he found his Vickie that he was longing for. Will this last? Apparently not. Yes, breakups are a part of life, but the show frames multiple straight couples as epic love stories that transcend realism, while queer couples are thrown into the background and treated as less than until it's beneficial for said straight romances.
willel in season 1 was fucking crazy. the gap will left behind after he vanished rippling out, the addition of el to the group slotting in, will coming home as el disappears once more, lines intended to be parallel which cross just once, both living with only stories about the other in the aftermath, will desperate to be found when everyone's given up on the idea he's alive, el desperate to stay hidden when the hunt for her rounds the corner, tragedy of loss and tragedy of hiding, the past rusting over for better and worse, changing, home existing in periphery, will finding his way back, el finding her way forward, the love was there and it changed everything, two sides of a coin, two mirror images, twins
- I'm sorry, but Noels, when I hear people think I'm racist, it's like they're saying I don't love my own family, which is ridiculous.
- It has nothing to do with me, or Hannah. We're not your defense.
dededos
annaxmalina
kaledo-art
pixelskylines
andulkaphoto
tangentwithtanner
origamiaround
