"jason todd was tim drake's robin--" LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER
IT WAS DICK GRAYSON! DICK GRAYSON WAS TIM DRAKES ROBIN!!! THIS MAN DID NOT FANBOY OVER DICK SINCE THE CIRCUS JUST FOR YALL TO CALL JASON TIM'S ROBIN!!!

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@sapphire-or-smth
"jason todd was tim drake's robin--" LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER
IT WAS DICK GRAYSON! DICK GRAYSON WAS TIM DRAKES ROBIN!!! THIS MAN DID NOT FANBOY OVER DICK SINCE THE CIRCUS JUST FOR YALL TO CALL JASON TIM'S ROBIN!!!
Happy birthday birdie đ
lord take all the hate this fandom gives to beast boy and give it to jason todd
Happy birthday tim
Helena: Iâm not involving myself with the bats
Tim: please? just a little? for me?
Helena: that mightâve worked when you were fourteen but not anymore brat
Tim: but itâs my birthday :(
âŚ
Babs:
Helena: he said it was his birthday
happy birthday tim!
The Dick-Talia-Selina beef is, dare I say, the most legendary cat fight I have ever encountered.
It starts â starts â with Talia pulling a quick one and ghosting him while heâs whining about her.
Then Dick complains to Alfred about it, because thereâs no way Bruce would ~~ignore him~~.
And then, then we get to where Talia is supposed to stay with them. Dick cannot have this. Obviously. Talia is a threat. Obviously.
(And I cannot get over the melodramatic door slam and the âgoodbyeeee!â, like Jesus Christ diva.)
When this fails, god forbid, Dick:
Gives a classic âitâs me or herâ dilemma, and then proceeds to lose said dilemma (observe the Talia smirk, because she knows what she did and she is reveling in it in classic girlboss form).
Pouts about losing the dilemma while Bruce looks as distressed as Iâve ever seen him, because the man cannot fathom that Dick would threaten to leave and actually do it.
Packs a bag dramatically. I donât even think the bag is necessary. Iâm pretty sure he hadnât moved back into the manor since he dropped out of college, so he had stuff elsewhere, and thereâs no way that one bag is holding all of any kind of equipment heâd need to transfer. That bag is for effect.
Youâd think this is where the beef ends. Dick, defeated. Bruce, choosing a woman over their sacred bond.
But no. Youâd be wrong.
Dick, our glorious, glorious petty bastard, pulls out the big guns. He goes and pouts to Bruceâs other main love interest, the one he actually likes. He gets Selina.
The salt, oh, the salt. The Dead Sea could not compare.
Theyâre gossiping about him. On a plane. Like theyâre gal pals venting about a situationship. Incredible. Wonderful.
I canât. Itâs so good. So juicy. The soap opera of all operas. And Bruce, the absolute wad, fails to acknowledge the fact that he has his own Real House Wives of Gotham following him in the background except that the characters in question are his ward and two situationships.
"I have no problems with Bruce no-kill rule, just that he forces it on others."
Omg, so awful of him to not want people to kill others. To care about life. Anyway, can we get some sources of him "forcing" others to follow his no-kill rule?
"Once Dick killed the Joker and Bruce revived him."
Yeah, because Dick would have kill himself if he had stayed a murderer. He hated himself so much after. Bruce saved the Joker to save Dick.
"Well, he forces Jason."
THE CRIME! A FATHER DOESN'T WANT HIS SON TO BE A MURDERER! Quick, go ask your parents how they would react if you decapitated 8 guys, how they would feel if you started murdering people. And don't smother things with "but they are bad people" because Jason murdered many goons, people who would never have been served the death penalty. Call me back after.
Also, btw, Clark once was mad and stopped talking to Diana because she killed someone. Do you also complain about him, or have you never touch a comic, apart maybe from the famous one like Under The Red Hood? The obsession with the Joker needing to being killed more than anyone else kind of tell me that because, personally, I would choose Lex Luthor (so rich he escapes punishment and he was the fucking president of the US once) or Amanda Waller (literally participates in the, still legal, slavery of prisoners, making them soldiers for the US and threatening their life to force them to risk their life. Will never be punished because she works for the US gov and military)
Maybe draw some Tim and bruce?? Id love u forever
Bonus points for missing spleen
Sick Tim and worried Bruce! Here you go!
I dont hate on jason todd in a loving way btwâşď¸ i like the idea of him pre-death and think hes better off dead . Which is why i usually only draw him as a child
the thing about Dick & Jason brotherhood stuff in fandom that bothers me is that the foundational centre of the relationship is in the fact Dick was not there when Jason was Robin.
Itâs his absence and distance. Dick foundationally is the potential older brother/inspiration for young Jason to look up to, not a regular presence in his life.
Itâs what makes the relationship different and distinguishable!
If you want hands on brotherly bonding where theyâre hanging out constantly, Dick and Tim are right there.
Thereâs a reason that the canon Dick & Jason hanging out as adults still has that âHey! hey! notice me, Iâm going to annoy you until you pay me attentionâ dynamic from Jason to Dick, because Dick has never been a regular active presence in Jasonâs life.
Actually bouncing off that last reblog, I think it is absolutely important to understand not only that Jack Drake is new money, but that he is a very specific type of new money parent, (which I happen to think is one that is declining in general existence at least in part to the declining affordability of a lot of these things, although these mentalities are still present, just to a somewhat lesser degree).
Which is parents that are very wealthy but very anti- old money scion behavior of just getting whatever you want. (The beef between old and new money being something that can be absolutely enormous and informs Jack's hatred of Bruce.)
These type of parents would have enough money to get their kids basically anything, but would go "no, I'm not getting you a car, you have to work and earn money and pay for it yourself". With the idea being to teach the kids that they actually need to work for everything they receive, and to be fiscally responsible. Nothing is handed to you on a silver platter.
And then, for instance, Bruce gets Tim a car.
Which not only gives the impression of kind of "buying" his son, but also explicitly undermines his parenting style.
Like, you really really cannot fully understand the absolute massive beef Jack has with Bruce without the knowledge that it involves fear that Tim will learn to start acting like an old money scion.
What makes it kind of extra delicious is that Tim actually does work his ass off. Bruce gives him a car, yes, but that's after all of Tim's hard work and training, after relying on Bruce and Alfred for rides as Robin, after working his ass off as Robin. Tim didn't work to earn the money to buy a car, but he absolutely put in the work to earn it - Jack just didn't see any of it.
It's even better then when Jack sells Tim's car to pay off his debt, because he took something someone else had worked for to fix his mistakes. In his head, he was paying off his debt AND getting rid of something Bruce had "just" bought for Tim on a whim, but from Tim's perspective Jack took something Tim earned and cared about to cover his own ass (that Bruce had to then fix by buying the Redbird and holding it for Tim).
And I get that this isn't technically Jack's fault because he didn't know about Tim being Robin (at the time), but a good chunk of Jack and Tim's problems could have been solved by sitting down and having a conversation about it, or Jack having a conversation with Bruce or with Bruce and Tim, but I genuinely think Jack would rather eat glass than do any of those.
Yep! @chiyana You're right!
100% the thing about this whole gripe is that what Jack sees isn't even true - Tim worked his ass off in regard to everything to do with Bruce, but it's all tied up with Robin stuff, so he doesn't know.
And then when he does find out, he forces him to quit, which yes, is an additional irony even if it sounds reasonable to a lot of people on the face of it, because he's been glorifying the story of a literal child soldier in their family Tim's entire life. (Not to mention that his finding out is tied up in a gross invasion of privacy and his reaction involving threatening Bruce with a gun are both unreasonable stances, I have a full breakdown of Robin: Unmasked as a Jack hate post on my blog. This post isn't about that.)
Which is why the closest he comes to forming an actual, genuine relationship with Tim is in the short time period he has between Tim going back to Robin / him accepting that and his death. Which is where the argument about whether he could have been decent from that point forward comes into play. Because he died, so we don't know.
Basically I think from the perspective of a reader in regard to canon Jack, having a positive or negative opinion of him at the end of the day is very tied up in if you think, had he lived, if he'd have been able to maintain his acceptance long-term now that he knew Tim was fully being raised with this kind of work ethic from both ends, or if he could just not have helped himself but fall back to being bitchy about Tim's relationship with Bruce to the point of his own relationship degrading once again. (Well besides people that might have a positive opinion of him because they agree with a parent being able to treat their child like property, which is a stance I'm fully not going to engage in.)
I have a hard time really believing that Jack would have improved all that much if he had lived, tbh. A lot of what we see from Jack Drake is that he prioritizes himself and what he wants first, and he sees Tim as his property and an extension of himself before he sees Tim as an independent human being - even while loving Tim. Jack waffles a lot and sometimes does a complete about-face in his opinions/behaviors as different writers try to figure out what to do with him, but at his core, he is (or at least very much wants to be) the traditional conservative 'head of the household' patriarch: he wants a nice house in a nice neighborhood, he wants an attractive and doting wife, an obedient son who respects and looks up to him, and he wants to be respected by his peers and seen as a 'real man'.
And from what we see, he has those things for the most part, but there are a few glaring asterisks: his debt problems, the mishandling and loss of Drake Industries, the way Dana challenges him on some things, the way he's older and not in his prime, but all of that can be smoothed over.
Except then there's Tim.
#jack out here having the messiest nastiest divorce slash custody battle with Bruce#a man he has never been married to#nor been in the same room with for a consecutive hour#meanwhile the one he should really be worroed about is Dick#Jack and Bruce arguing about who Tim loves and respects more#meanwhile Tim is staring at Dick with stars in his eyes kicking his heels
Partly just bringing this out of the tags. Although also important to note that said argument about who Tim loves in respects more isn't either of them thinking it's themselves, but thinking it is the guy they are arguing with, while thinking that said guy doesn't deserve it. Bruce looses some rank in the Bruce Wayne Haters Club (of which he's normally high-level) purely from Jack annoying him too much. Meanwhile, Dick is absolutely 100% the person Tim loves and respects the most.
#Tim being the President and Founding Member of the Gotham Dick Grayson Fanclub #Bruce thought it could be him for a while but Tim beat him by several minutes and graciously allows Bruce to be Vice-President
#I think an important thing to note about Jack from a meta perspective #is that he was originally intended to be killed not long after Janet #but was kept around because it would be âmore interestingâ #so he 100% only ever lived for the Drama#and in the end he died as he lived in that way #just wanted to add that I found the actual reblog and the tags and it's 100% valid to love that whole situation BECAUSE it's messy #it's basically another post I reblogged where it's like âthat character is problematicâ âyeah they're SUPPOSED to beâ that's Jack (via @katanahime)
#DC killed Janet before she could divorce Jack so Bruce gets the post divorce child custody battle mess instead #Jack does not know how to parent as a verb #he never needed to when Janet was alive and after her death he does not learn (via @mizminola)
and also some tags on the original post bc they made me lol:
#One of my fav Jack drake moments (I think this in batgirl?) #Tim says they should get a dishwasher #Jack says that they have a dishwasher and his name is Tim (via @aliteralchicken)
Jack's biggest issue when Janet died was that he suddenly became a single parent, and he didn't realise the difference between being the 'fun' parent who was the one who primarily brought home income and spent 3 hours with his kid on a Saturday afternoon, with being the hands on parent responsible for actively caring for the kid. Because up until that moment Janet had handled the active parenting as had Tim's boarding school.
Which is why Jack was always bringing up the topic of boarding school: from his perspective he'd had a good, obedient, easy to manage kid when Tim was at boarding school, and he now had a kid who seemed to constantly be getting into fights, was disrespectful and acting out. To Jack, the difference in the equation was the school, so he wanted to send Tim off so it was easy like before. Whereas an awful lot of it was that Jack had never actually had to actively parent his kid up until this point, and the fact that he now had a 14 year old who didn't have any experience respecting him as an authority figure over bedtimes and homework and other boundaries and so just...mostly didn't listen? Jack was massively struggling with that.
Plus, Tim did have boundaries in his life - he had Bruce and Alfred providing them, both of whom had a lot more experience in terms of mentoring and parenting, and whose authority Tim respected. And because he respected them more than Jack, and was actively concealing a massive secret from Jack, Tim looked far more disrespectful and like he was picking and choosing when to behave for his father, rather than being respectful and obedient.'
Also, this change also lines up with going from two to one parents at the same time as the transition from pre-teen to teen, meaning Tim was due to become more difficult and independent anyway.
One of the things about Dick and Tim is that fundamentally they are extremely similar in opinion and outlook - they are the most similar of any of the Bats by a long shot - and so when you do have a story that looks at their differences those dividing lines are highlighted to show where there are differences. Stories like their argument over whether Bruce was guilty in Murderer/Fugitive, or over Damian being Robin in early Red Robin, or over if Tim should go to rescue a missing Bruce or leave him to cope on his own in Zdarsky's Batman.
And in a situation where the audience is familiar with how close they are, and how they're just pre-Crisis conception of Robin and post-Crisis conception of Robin, Big Robin and Little Nightwing, then that highlighting gives you something really interesting to consider in a relationship that the audience knows is close and loving and stable; differences that help you distinguish fine details of their personalities.
But in a situation where the audience is far less familiar with them as a duo, and may only know of the conflict, the differences highlighted in the story take on outsize importance, because they don't realise that focus is like a spotlight or a magnifying glass to distinguish between two very similar paint colours, rather than one being red and the other blue, different primary colours.
Because for most of the OTHER Bats, the differences between them ARE on a far bigger scale. You don't need a magnifying glass to see the differences in approach and beliefs between Tim and Damian and Jason, for instance. It's extremely obvious in any story you put them in. And that relative ease is translated onto for instance Red Robin as a huge thing, because clearly the scale of Dick and Tim's differences there should be as obvious and fundamental that they're different characters as for instance Tim and Damian's first meeting, or Jason and Tim in Titans Tower. It should be obvious and super easy to tell apart, like the Robins War issues of Batman & Robin 2011 where Damian set out to prove he was the best Robin in noticeably different ways to the other three boys.
But for Dick and Tim is ISN'T that obvious, because they are so similar, and acting like they should be hurt and distant long term when 99% of their worldview and motivation and character is so in tune and modelled off the other (because every modern Robin!Dick story is using the modernised conception of Robin developed through Tim, even as Tim as a character was created to be the modern answer to Dick). They're so alike.
It's also a case that for some of their differences, the setup was that Tim still holds beliefs that Dick discarded: that Robin is Batman's partner and equal, and that Bruce needs help to save him when Bruce gets all tangled up in his own head. So they're beliefs that both of them have spent a lot of time thinking about and obsessing over.
But it's not necessarily that Tim's holding an immature belief and that Dick has the mature belief; it's that Dick and Tim have developed different perspectives on these ideas from the contexts they saw them in. Because even as Dick experienced the traumatic letdown of needing to escape to find himself (whether he quit or was fired) because Bruce was having trouble adapting to a working relationship with an adult partner, Tim was there watching as Dick and Bruce found a way to develop an adult working relationship. So Tim believes in that partner equality more than Dick does, because Tim's seen how it functions, and sees it more as "Robin means I'm always there for Bruce to turn to" and a new identity like Nightwing has that level of separation from the day to day.
These are the aspects of two very similar characters that give them differences, different stories and trajectories. That allows them to both have space to exist within stories, because for these points Dick and Tim make different choices. Because if they DID agree, then especially now that Tim's an adult, the justification for having two characters who are so similar becomes harder and harder. Why do we need both? And these different perspectives are that separation, that justification for why.
Because Tim would travel the world to find Bruce. He'd hunt through time and through dimensions, tracking him down. He'd see Bruce pushing everyone away and disappearing back into "there is no Bruce, just the Bat" and worry about Bruce's mental health and help drag him back out.
Because Dick wouldn't. Because he knows that Bruce will find a way to cope if he's left on his own, that Bruce will always come back, that he can walk away and trust Bruce to be safe.
i like fanworks where dick is closer with the batsiblings than he is in canon but like generally speaking he's really busy and self-isolating and they have to break into his apartment or call him for backup to see him. like in post-crisis canon. even timmy who is his little purse dog doesn't spend half as much time with dick as you'd expect. the titans barely see him unless they're backing each other up or are on a team together at the moment which is half of why they keep manically reforming the team every three years (so they can actually hang out). post-crisis dick is not the person keeping the bats together (that's tim) or scheduling family hangouts (that's not really any of them on any kind of regular basis) he's spending 18 hours a day minimum working and nightwinging and somehow squeezing even more time out of the day to fix his neighbor's water heater and do six other good deeds and then he's getting shot again
#to me he really just gives everyone the standing offer of#call me if you need me#and will honor every call he gets#but never calls you himself cuz he gave that offer to a million other people#if you never call him thatâs on you#if he inexplicably has downtime heâs not spending it on reaching out to people#heâs spending it on Americaâs Most Wanted and animal documentaries â @nibblewinger
#honestly I think the thing really is is that Tim solved the puzzle on how to get Dick to pay attention to you#and it was just âshow up at his apartmentâ#which is why when you go through Dick & Tim moments it's like#major event - major event - Nightwing issue - major event - Nightwing issue - story about Tim but it still takes place in Bludhaven#and then when you have stuff like GK 8 where Tim says Dick picked him up from school on his motorcycle#and you realize how special that was and why he felt the need to say that out loud â @katanahime
#or physically kidnapping him. which happens to be wally's favorite tactic#just straight up snatches dick in the middle of doing something else and takes him home to hang out with his wife#and dick's like jesus wally stop doing that and wally's like haha sorry (he's not sorry and will do it again) but now that you're here#you should eat dinner with us :) (you literally can't escape me)#crucially wally is also one of the big names in Dragging Dick Back Onto Teams#the extent to which wally gets away with tormenting him cannot be overstated i feel â @vintagerobin
#i feel like dg is that type of extroverted person who u hardly get to see and never responds to your texts#so you think he doesn't like you or is mad at you or smth#but then when you DO see him he's really friendly and acts as if you talk to e/o every day so you think maybe it was all in your head#but then a week later you're 10 unread texts in and starting to think he hates you again#he doesn't tho he's just bleeding out on his couch â @eerie-five
#Nightwing â96 and Graysonâs run made me realize this about him#and itâs essential to his character#heâs The Avoider#and he goes out of his way to fix other pplâs problems to deal with his guilt about being The Avoider â @b0nes-mcgee
Random thought of the day:
Is there anything to drawing a parallel between the relationship between Bruce & Cass and the one between Dick & Tim?
As far as, the younger of each pair looking up to the other to a kind of unhealthy degree and setting an unreasonable standard in their heads for them compared to the level to which they are able to be fuck ups actually.
As well as, the older of each kind of falling into seeing the younger as an extension of themselves rather than remembering they are a separate individual with their own autonomy at times?
Is that something?
Not entirely sure how much I have there or if there's much else to it, I'm just chewing on it and I guess decided to crowd-source the thought if anyone is interested in it.
(Keep in mind I love all of these characters, do not come at me with hate at any of them or as if I am expressing any hate. Chewing on the crunchy bits is a way to express love for fiction.)
"undoing this character's death would take away his sacrifice and character arc" girl I don't give a shit. I'm bringing him back through the power of ao3 fix-it fics and there's nothing you can do to stop me x