hii hii >-< welcome 2 my lil corner of the internet where I talk too loud, dress too boyish, and post pics of myself in striped armwarmers like it’s STILL 2008 (bc it is in my heart)
I’m Casey — 19, scene-virago dog-girl hybrid. she/her, chaotic neutral, bisexual disaster, and probably the only cool girl left on the planet.
Fandoms/Interests: Class of 09, Mlp, Monster High, Lolita Dolls, Homestuck, Vkei, Pokemon, League of Legends, Art, and Hentai.
person still using photobooth filters unironically. I listen to loud music, wear low-slung jeans, and smoke ALOT.
What are your thoughts on what 'counts' as gnc? Are there ways to be gnc outside of appearance in your opinion? Specifically with more feminine men as male gender roles are currently somewhat stricter than women's (it is normalised for women to wear pants but not for men to wear skirts or dresses). Is it ok to call a man feminine even if he conforms to outside appearance-based expectations of gender, on the basis that he has more traditionally 'feminine' mannerisms/traits? Or is that just reinforcing the "weak, dainty, submissive" = feminine and "tough, strong, dominant" = masculine dichotomy? Sorry if this is confusing
First off, hate to break it to you, women not wearing pants all throught history isn't as accurate as you might think.
I love Nicole Rudolph, she's a great fashion historian who talks about it a little here. She makes great content (shameless, unsponsored plug)
So you're wondering what 'counts' as GNC, huh? If you don't feel like reading, GNC is both an internal identity and external representation of an identity. I will tell you that arbitrarily 'assigning' GNC 'traits' to someone otherwise not GNC by any context, isn't the way to go about things as it can easily slip back into Cuphobic/Misogynistic sentiment.
"Is it ok to call a man feminine even if he conforms to outside appearance-based expectations of gender, on the basis that he has more traditionally 'feminine' mannerisms/traits?"
Not the wisest idea, no.... While there are gendered actions, linguistics, speech patterns, and mannerisms that are feminine in regular and queer context, most of the time, it's misplaced to talk about...not feminine people. Cuphobia (The fear, polarization, and bigotry of feminine men) informs the very low threshold for femininity in men. Because if men absolutely aren't able to become feminine, touching it even slightly "counts". This can easily go wrong with our logic where men who do not identify with femininity can be maliciously labeled as 'masculine' for simply doing a certain action that doesn't fit the hypermasculine (and patriarchally informed) presentation politics of manhood. This isn't to say mannerisms cannot reflect an internal identity, just be careful calling them as such.
"Now then, what would you count as GNC?"
Again, this is highly dependent on cultural context and using discernment. Although I'm certain different subsets of HetGNC queers exist all around the world, Chances are if you're reading this, you live in a euro-colonial/western influenced society. So we'll be talking from that perspective. From this point on, I'll use the term 'gender quality' to communicate a person's gender and it's Alinity. (ex: masculine woman/intramasc woman). See Allinity model:
When identifying a GNC person, it's best to get a little bit of everything. Presentation, Internal Identification, and maybe relational identity. At the end of the day, all roads lead back to identity, everything else is conduits for expression, which feeds back to strengthen an identity. From an outside perspective the most confident evidence to gain is both presentation and expression. If you don't know someone, visual language is the another way strangers communicate an identity.
The Presentation Problem
Let's talk about it!
I've noticed that a significant number of members within our community experience shame, confusion, and frustration regarding body types, clothing presentation, and accurate representation. This tension created a subtle divide. On one side, our presenting community members feel it's unfair for 'closeted' individuals to claim or insert themselves into characters, archetypes, and tropes that do not reflect their lived, material realities. Conversely, the other half of the community feels insecure about stepping into their authentic selves within a society that actively dislikes them; consequently, they rely on finding small, subtle ways to latch onto representation. There, of course, are others who take note of the scarcity of true representation, then take it upon themselves to headcanon.
I feel we all agree o what prsentation for GNC people generally look like for Mollis & Virago. The issue arises when a straight gender-conforming character or gender-conforming body types are labeled a Virago/Mollis, causing...community-wide dysphoria. A direct solution to this issue isn't to avoid the conversations, but to have them...even if it can get a little ugly. Gender Non-conformity doesn't just look one way! but... we have to be aknowledge there is still always lies a consensus on what is Gender Conforming and these people get visibility and priority over us.
In the long run, even if it gets hetic, it'd be healthy we have uncomfortable conversations now, rather than later!
Also! It isn't to say GNC men have no specific set of presentations unique to themelves to signify their identity subtly like butch or gnc women do! They definitely do, and that's what we're attracted to! My point was to show you dangers of assigning it to men who clearly...aren't that.
roald dahl was antisemitic. george orwell was openly homophobic. edgar allan poe married his 13 year old cousin. dr seuss cheated on his wife. hp lovecraft was racist as fuck.
anyways they’re fucking dead it’s not like you’re enabling their behaviors in the afterlife or something. then again I think orwell’s homophobia bleeds into one of his books so uh keep an eye out for that
the difference between these old white guys and jk rowling is that the former group is all dead. jk rowling is alive and using your money to oppress trans people
roald dahl was also racist. seuss was ALSO also racist. and these people are dead and we aren’t supporting them by consuming their work but their CHILDRENS BOOKS reflect this. so consume consciously and don’t give racist books to kids and not read it critically with them (and if you don’t it better be bc you know they’ll be able to do it on their own)
You're misunderstanding our intent. It's not our of malice! Both Mollis and trans women are both orginally men and transitioned some sort of way to femininity. It's not transphobic to say you're of the same exact group just because of silly little gender.
???? Go fuck yourself. Trans women are women, feminine men are men. You think you're slick trying to logically slip us both into the "male" category. There is no reason why you should lump in the experiences of trans women and mollis together At All even if somewhat similar.
This kind of rhetoric in these ages is what gets us killed.
I'm kind of glad you said something because alot of the rolereversal crowd on here (AND YES I MEAN TUMBLR ESPECIALLY) has a problem with misogyny projected on feminine men. This is why I left the community, because I don't think anyone actually has read what anibelle had said extensively about not using this as an outlet for your misogynistic biases.
We're all fucking adults here, and it pisses me off that we're not more organized and aware. Since we're small, it's hard to speak up without alienating yourself from the only people you know understand.
FYI I never called out anyone in particular, I was speaking my mind on patterns I saw browsing the tag. It really doesn't help that rhe reddit has some transphobic/homophobic/lesbophobic sentiment just floating around.
It's fucked up that our trans members of this community have said they don't feel comfortable speaking here because of said transphobia. It's really fucked up that members of our own community perpetuate subtle jabs at masc lesbians despite sharing a large axis of their oppression.
Just because you're Genderqueer, it doesn't give you authority to talk over the experiences of groups you don't belong to. Some of you are STILL cis. Some of you are STILL straight. Some of you are STILL white. It is your responsibility to check your biases and educate yourself.
This whole "hetgnc" community on reddit started from femdom shit and has old ass men with tons of pornography associated with their account. I know alot of us aren't like that, but this is just what I know of these people that run the community.
They are fine with transphobic and misogynistic language being used for feminine men. They're fine with the transmisogyny within their circles.
These people aren't GNC in any substantial way that doesn't include bigotry or glorification of tropes that exclude our actual lived experiences outside of internet culture.
