I do find it funny how Jason fans are expected to hate on him, compared to like...most other fans of characters. And I'm not saying this is Jason-specific by any means, it's just something I've noticed.
We can't say we like Jason without condemning his actions. We can't say we like Jason without saying that he was one of the worst Robins and Tim was wayyyy better. We can't say we like Jason without thinking he should be punished for his crimes.
And like...buddy, I like Jason because he's committed crimes. Tf do you mean I have to sit there and laugh and be like 'oh yeah I like Jason but (character) is so much better at the job and (character) should be allowed to hit him and Jaybin sucked actually and Jason is a monster for doing this stuff to (character) and yeah I agree he's a fraud'???
Like jfc god forbid I like a guy for being a bit of an asshole. God forbid I like a character who does dodgy stuff and admits his grey morality. God forbid I like a guy without sanitising what he did or putting up a disclaimer that I think what he did was bad. God forbid I have fun with my own fucking opinions. Why do I have to comfort others for liking a character who isn't their favourite, who is someone they dislike or hate, who they for some reason have labelled a fraud? Why do I have to laugh and say he has no good comics just to follow the popular opinion???
Again, none of this is Jason specific. He just seems to get it the most out of all of the Robins; especially Jaybin, because apparently me thinking Jaybin is a great Robin means I'm a larper or a fraud or delusional or whatever. Sorry I like a silly whimsical kid whose slow descent into a terrible outcome makes me emotional ig
Anyway. I will never apologise for liking Jason or his comics. Ever.
Have we seen the plot reveal for Dynamic Duo. We're just getting another "X character gets to be Jason and Jason gets to be the fanon version of himself" except this time it's Dick instead of Tim stealing his everything
top ten worst moments is whenever someone (me/a post/a friend/a stranger online) is gushing abt jason and another person says "didnt he die though?" as if that takes away from his talents. like yeah he died, so did my dog and he was still a pro at tug-of-war, the fuck? him dying was in no way shape or form a skill issue, it was literally entirely circumstantial. there wasnt anything jason couldve "done better" it was shit luck and a nonexistent support system and a lying trusted adult and a psychopath what was he supposed to do? dodge?
MORE evidence that Jason absolutely Does Not Have a secret identity. No mask at all going on here and a villain he doesn't even fight recognizes him.
Iirc killer moth is meant to be another of Batman's high intellect villains who're meant to match him, though he gets a very short end of the stick outside of comics. Nonetheless, I don't see Red Hood as high on the "I've GOTTA figure out his identity" radar. I do absolutely see this as Red Hood's face just Being That Known
Hes having fun ^
I like how he didn't even get off the chair and is just smiling about it. Chilling as he threatens you with knife. I feel like the bars in hell whenever I get happy about Jason threatening someone without yelling anger roar shoved in
I'm only a few pages in but all the Jason art here is so cutieful... I'm so delighted... whimsy meters are up... also he just casually stabbed killer moth again
When Killer Moth calls Jason an ex-superhero, what is he referring to? I assume we aren't meant to see any of rhato as Jason heroics. But Jason doesn't really have a prominent superhero role that people would know about? Is it because he teams up with the batfamily sometimes? Is tfz why he's currently an ex hero? Or does he know about Robin? Honestly, I might be a bit caught up on the wording here. I should stop taking long breaks between my comic reading sessions so my internal timeline is more coherent
Currently reading: The Man Who Stopped Laughing #5
Scarecrow asking Knight 'why do you hate him so much?' Or such. I'll have to reconsult the comics to figure out if he Knows knignt is Jason is Robin or if he just?? Hired a random really pissed yet really dedicated guy. One makes more sense and the other is really fun to imagine
The milita commenting that it isn't the Knight's money, but that all the villains chipped in. Hold on i need screenshots of this its fun
Kori saw Jaybin in Roy's memory and be like "He's so small" is the only thing I can pick up and not frown over in this mess. Hi hi hi Jaybin my beloved.
people are like why do you talk about classism so much in jason’s writing in comics and in fandom but they don’t realise the lit nerd jason fanon (though partially rooted in canon) is in part actually push back about how the fandom thought jason was dumb because he dropped out, that he wasn’t interested in higher education, that the potential jobs fandom gave him was always blue collared ones “just because”. things used to be much worse and i think there’s a pretty drastic shift in how jason is perceived and characterised in the past 10 years or so, and possibly why i don’t care if fans lean too much into him being a lit enthusiast. because well, i’ve seen the alternative and i don’t want to go back there
Saying teenager who was murdered "got himself killed" because he made a decision to approach his mother and was tricked "isn't victim blaming". Okay. Sure.
Even if Jason hadn't been tricked, he didn't "get himself killed". A man killed him.
(This is from the same person who hates Steph, and I happened to see it when checking if someone else had blocked me out of curiosity)
This entire ask answer is in order to exonerate Tim from victim blaming, of course. Because Tim is not allowed to have flaws.
For the record, I do think a lot of Jason fans can put way too much emphasis Tim's victim blaming in particular out of their beef with him-- I've seen a claim Tim "does it to Jason the most" which is not true. as someone who went through all the comics that mentioned Jason post death on that doc, no, that's Bruce, followed by Dick.
And I do honestly give Tim the most grace for it too, because 1. He was a kid, while Dick and Bruce were grown men and 2. He didn't know Jason, and only has Bruce and Dick's take on him to go off of. He absorbed what they told him, and took it to heart. That's what kids do. Meanwhile, Bruce and Dick did know Jason and what he was actually like (especially Bruce), which makes their active rewriting of him feel grosser.
But his version of Jason saying "I killed myself, I thought I was [tons of wild inferences] is yeah, victim blaming. It doesn't make Tim a horrific irredeemable person. He's a kid with flaws who's mirroring rhetoric from adults about a kid he didn't know, definitely out of fear he'll meet the same fate as Jason.
(And then he goes and defies orders immediately but it's okay when he does it because DC said so)
It's just a shame DC thinks he's right, so those flaws can't be seriously reckoned with or explored in an interesting way. Tim learning that his impression of Jason has been warped could have been interesting. Dick and Bruce having to face the fact they said awful things about Jason in order to give themselves semblance of control-- that something was wrong with Jason and as long as Tim's a good boy the same won't happen to him-- would be interesting.
And since of course we bought Steph into it- it's not about making Jason or Steph perfect victims. It's about how apparently they need to be perfect victims in order to be children who aren't routinely blamed for their own murders. They aren't allowed to make any choices without having those choices used against them in an argument they were the ones to blame for their deaths.
Shifting any responsibility off the adults in their lives and their actual murderers in order to make it about their choices is wrong.
It's not that Steph and Jason don't have agency. Both of them do. Both of them made choices within the narrative. It's just that their choices aren't given any grace by the narrative, or treated in a normal way.
Jason was doing what pretty much any hero who wanted to save a loved one would do in his situation. Tim and Dick disobeyed similar orders and it turns out okay and is treated as heroic and because the narrative says so. I do not believe either of them would have waited around for their Mom to be in danger from a killer either. I believe they too would try to convince her to come with them.
(And as if to further prove my point some person tried to 'gotcha' Jason with 'why didn't he question why his Mom was allowed to take a smoke break'....why would he? She wasn't being tied up, she was being blackmailed, but she was with one of the most volatile killers on the planet and that could easily change if she stayed, Jason was pretty clearly trying to tell her he could help (as Robin) and they could leave together with him protecting her, And even if it was that Jason didn't put two and two together...how the fuck would that make him any more responsible for his own death. Are you trying to say he deserved to die for not noticing something???)
Stephanie made a reckless choice, and I would never deny that. It was something she should have put more thought into. It's something she regrets in the narrative itself.
(I hate to bring up my stupid fanfic, but that's why I have Steph hate when people to act like she didn't make her own choices in my own work. It's hard to balance acknowledging outside forces and manipulation vs knowing she was not completely helpless against the circumstances.)
But not ignoring how she was failed and mistreated by the adults around her and driven to desperation isn't removing her agency, it's holding a grown-ass man accountable, and questioning the framing of the story and how it treats women.
Because it ISN'T just Stephanie the narrative shifts the blame onto to absolve Batman. It's Leslie too. The narrative throws an important figure in Bruce's life under the bus, going against all previous characterization, to make it so Bruce faces less guilt. We have to make sure only women are responsible for Stephanie's death, and only women face consequences. If that didn't make it clear that the story has a misogynist agenda, that the character's actions are not about telling a good story, nothing will.
And, like with Jason, when similar choices are made by another character- the many times Bruce has accidentally gotten people killed with his plans ACTUALLY going out of control (Failsafe OMAC etc etc infinity)- he's not punished with death, there's no implication he is an irredeemable screwup destined to die for this.
DC doesn't tell these stories with no agenda. DC has reasons to frame these deaths that way, reasons they wrote it that way. They admit to hating Jason and trying to "make Jason unlikable", they now have a need to explain how Tim is better and different.
Steph was going to die no matter what at their hands. They faced pushback like Devin Grayson questioning them why they always kill off female characters and characters of color in meetings they ignore or laugh off. They have Dylan Horrocks report that the meetings were gross and seeing them plan Stephanie Brown's torture and death made him feel sick and he felt vindicated when Girl-Wonder called it out. They made Steph and Gavin the sacrifices for very specific reasons, their choices were motivated by racism and misogyny.
So they need their own characters to justify their hatred. They have them victim blame and the audience is supposed to agree. Analyzing that, saying "what this character says is fucked up but the narrative supports it, let's talk about why that is" it's part of engaging with media. Even when your fav is one of the characters.
Also from a different poster:
Insane thing to say. People victim blame without actively making the culprit less culpable all the time. They can still say the serial killer is culpable while saying 'that kid got himself killed by getting in the car with that killer'. It's a horrible thing to say irl, it is victim blaming. It happens with rape all the time too 'hate that guy but you did this to yourself by taking a drink from him" that sort of thing.
Often the culprit is treated like a force of nature, something horrible that can't be helped and could easily be avoided, like the victim intentionally walked into a hurricane or something, and clearly wanted to die, and that's pretty much like how the Joker is treated. He killed Jason, and we hate him, but he's just what he is, so let's blame Jason for being near him instead.
Gobsmacked by this. Really shows how real life beliefs play into how we talk about these characters.
rest of the ask under the cut so if this gets back to someone nobody can claim its out of context.
A list of everyone Jason kills in Red Hood: The Lost Days
I was reminiscing and flipping through the comic and thought it would be an interesting thing to have on hand in case anyone needs a reference in the future.
In order of death:
Egon - A German assassin who was running a child slave trade. Jason had poisoned his energy drink while looking for information on the upcoming delivery. He took the kids to the British embassy before burning the entire compound to the ground.
Steel Beam (unknown number)- An organization of mercenaries that are contracted to do 'wet work' in other countries. Jason rats them out to a group of child soldiers, who ambush and kill them. He leaves a pilot named Rip alive to spread the word of the group's demise.*****
Unnamed Surveillance Expert - Revealed to be a pedophile. It's not mentioned how Jason kills him.
Unnamed Small Arms Dealer - Ran a heroin ring whose stock was mostly poisonous. Method of murder not mentioned.
Unnamed Close Combat Master - Was planning on killing her husband and daughters. Unknown how she was killed.
Yuri Karanov & Ivgene Clan - Russian mobster who hires Shurik Ivanko, a demolition assassin and Jason's teacher, to detonate a series of bombs in London and frame an Arab terrorist group to shift international authorities away from their business dealings. Ivanko is killed while Jason dismantles the bombs. All in all, I think he kills most of the clan, enough to disrupt their entire operation. Jason also kills the cousin of the mobster who tells him where the Joker is.
*****Jason mentions a group of mercenaries that he stopped/killed in Africa. I think this is Steal Beam because the provided details add up.
(In the beginning, he brutally beats up two hotel managers after learning Bruce hadn't killed the Joker despite him murdering Jason. They could have been killed, but the comic mentions that Jason gave them a 'beat down' that they have to cover up. So not dead.)
Also, as a fun fact, this is the series in which Jason, with the help of Talia, acquires Kord Corporation, which controls Wayne Industries R&D, giving him access to a majority of the weaponry and blueprints that Bruce used as Batman.
ya know, on tiktok i block anyone that has an ass take or doesnt understand the actual issues ppl have w something. we can call that protecting my peace or just more easily annoyed when there's auditory input happening, either way.
this time it was some guy who doesnt seem to understand the main issue 'jason fans' have w batman beating red hood in rhato rebirth 25. like yes, red hood appeared to have killed penguin on live tv, seemingly breaking the no kill rule.
however, the issue is that it is the same set up as in rhato rebirth 1, where red hood 'attempts' to assassinate the mayor, but really doesnt and even cures him of a virus. at the end of that issue, jason asks bruce to trust him, that he did it that way to go undercover. and bruce said if he thought jason was in too deep he would pull him out, and if he killed, actually took a life, then bruce would come for him.
lo and behold, a literal master marksman shoots penguin in the face and gets beaten by batman in rhato rebirth 25. thats just bruce doing what he promised, right? wrong, because jason is a master marksman with a number of non-lethal rounds, and even most non-lethal rounds will kill when shot point blank. that means he chose rounds that wouldn't. a rubber bullet directly to the face will kill someone, and yet penguin didnt die. if you read the entirety of rhato rebirth, you can tell jason is not dumb. this was not an accident that pemguin is alive.
making rhato rebirth 25 the exact same as 1, where batman sees red hood doing something potentially shady and only sees his former actions, completely ignoring that batman's whole creed is about second chances. he ignores that this is the exact same set up as the start of their deal, and only sees red hood with a gun in someone's face. does not consider that red hood has kept the rule even in private, has proof black mask is alive despite completely falling off the map after a fight with red hood. heard red hood say he hates the rules but he's following them, has seen red hood turn down multiple opportunities to kill someone he'd argue as better off dead.
jason 'killing' penguin even fulfilled the same point as 'killing' the mayor. it is to go into deeper cover, but bruce doesnt know that because he saw a literal beat-for-beat same setup as was done with the perfectly fine mayor and thought the exact same thing as he did then. this is supposed to be one of the best detectives in the world and he can't see an imitation set up when it smacks him in the face?
wrong, it reads as bruce looking for a reason to hit his problem child, to beat him into submission, and that is the issue most "jason fans" have.
yeah so i covered up my son's death because it would have inconvenienced me...yeah by doing this i basically ruined all chances of someone pursuing justice for him legally...yeah im rich as hell and could have definitely not done this and instead gotten the murderer convicted. yeah no i covered it up instead. anyway so my son is back now :/ and he wants to kill the guy who murdered him but that's like really immature... well what do i expect him to do? what?? why are you even asking this :| obviously he should be fine with the guy breaking out of arkham on a routine basis :/ hell, he should get justice through legal means! doesn't he know only i can dictate when it's moral to break the law?
*head in my hands* You don't understand, you can't understand "Bruce brought Jason to the place he died" as merely an action, you have to understand it as a concept. Bruce didn't just brought Jason to a place, a geographical location, the Magdala Valley, Ethiopia, he brought Jason to the exact place where he died: a situation where he followed his parent out of trust and that person betrayed him. Jason didn't just died in "a warehouse in Ethiopia," he died in a warehouse where Sheila led him to and betrayed him, sold him out the Joker. Bruce led him to this exact place too, a place/ a situation where someone he trust betrayed him. Sheila led him to where he'd die, Bruce led him to where he died, it's the same, the same thing.
You still don't get it, do you. Listen, it's not a "--This is where you died." It's a "This is how you died."
Sheila 🤝 Bruce: Betrayed Jason's trust, chose the Joker instead of him, lied to him, led him to where he's die/ died (he still forgave them after that.)
And I just found out that Bruce knows that his mother sold him out to the Joker. Which makes this a hundred times worse. Bruce brought Jason here knowing it. Madness, madness, madness. Jason knows that Bruce knows too and do you think that hit him like a truck.
And this will be the second time this happened to Jason, what do you think he felt when he realized that he've walked right into that trap twice. Not only so, Bruce was there in adift too, and his role was the hero, someone who supposed to come to rescue but failed to. Now, Madgala Valley, Jason saw Bruce shifted from the role of a failed hero, but is still a hero, to the role of the parent who betrayed him. He saw Bruce shift from someone who once played the role that came to rescue him to the role of the one that actively took action to led him to his death. The horror. And Bruce, playing into the role, knowing he's playing into it.
