Tbh one of the number one things I notice when reading Batman is how Bruce uses knowledge of women's identities to control them in a really distinct way
And how he raises his boys to do the same...
Like obviously when we see the retcons in Batgirl year one, this occurs. With Steph as well... And then in another way with Cass, where she doesn't get a civilian identity? Or when we see him bully Helena out of the mask in no man's land??? And almost every time he has one of his boys at his side assisting him
Like obviously a man so concerned with his own secret identity is going to view identity and knowledge about it as having power & he just does not hesitate to wield it against women in particular as a means of coercion
coming back with examples to illustrate my point & i am being so strong and refraining from going into a lengthy digression about how batgirl year one's commitment to a more "grounded" start for babs diminishes and mocks her over and over again...
In Batgirl Year One #4, we see Bruce dictating what Dick is allowed to call Babs. You could argue this is control over his "brand," but it's part of a larger pattern of control over Babs throughout this run:
And it's immediately followed by drugging & abducting her to the Batcave, where he interrogates her to try and find out her identity...
Followed by drugging her again and making it clear that she does not get to decide what is done with her identity or her body
They maneuver her unconscious body multiple times in this issue and forcibly unmask her. Alfred and Dick are Bruce's accomplices in this. Dick occasionally challenges Bruce, but never with any real seriousness. There is no reciprocity in Barbara and Bruce's relationship here--she is entirely at his mercy at all times, and he wants her to be aware of this & works to crush her down whenever she defies him.
Bruce controls Steph also from as soon as he knows who she is: we see him do this in Detective Comics #649... her third appearance
Her identity is a bludgeon he can deploy against her-- and he's eager to do it immediately. He always goes for this blow (and yes, I'm aware he uses Tim's secret identity against him later + sabotages his relationship with Steph... but he only does it to Tim after he's been really upset with him. With women, he will deploy it right away)
In this case, Tim is apparently the first one to discover Steph's identity, but immediately gives it to Bruce, who then uses it against her. (I am admittedly so very tired so my chain of events could be off here as I am kind of throwing this post together).
He ambushes Helena with Dick to scold her for not being good enough while calling her by the hero identity she's currently not using, revealing that he's "known from the start" who she is.
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120
He browbeats her into giving up the cowl and Dick cooperates with him, calling Helena by the same name:
Then he takes the costume and basically kingmakes Cass into the new Batgirl... then prefers that she never step out of the role. The one girl he chooses and she can have no other identity. The moment she "gives up" the secret, he supports her & builds up a way to avoid getting it back.
Batgirl (2000) #14
And, you'll notice, Oracle's identity is a weapon that he can use to keep Cass in line here. She can't stay with Babs any more, because that would compromise the secret... the one that Bruce knows and has known since nearly Barbara's debut & claims ownership over once again.
another thing about boy wonder is that jason is made out to be unhygienic and crass and impulsive and stupid because he is poor. then talia is made out to be the princess who's never lived her own life and mindlessly acted on her father's orders to make herself love a man and have a kid with him only to abuse the kid and also others who she deems below herself. the only way you can win in this comic is if you are a rich white boy apparently because tim drake is the saviour of the poor who don't need to think for themselves because he, ceo of wanye enterprises, is there to be the hero in their place. there is no need to involve those irrational lower classes who don't know what's good for them (which this comic certainly has proven to believe). it's impressive the lengths to which juni ba bases characters off of 2D assumptions based on class and situation rather than actually engaging with the characters as they are when not being reduced to stereotypes.
(i'd never heard of this site before but from what i've found it's fully legal. It has a subscription model, but you can also buy comics individually and there's a bunch of free stuff too, mostly from small creators)
ETA:
a lot of people on the notes have also recommended
batcave.biz (despite the name, it's not just batman or dc or even superhero comics)
and there was some complaining about ads, so i'm also gonna rec
Just once I want to read a comic where innocent civillian people of Gotham are grateful that Jason killed someone and they thank him in front of Batman
Imagine being kidnapped and assaulted by a group of men with no chance of escaping or possibly even surviving. Then having this man who looks like vigilante bursting in, killing all of your attackers and bringing you to safety. Would YOU dislike the fact that he killed them? Because I can guarantee that most people would expierience only relief and thankfulness if not a passive joy at them getting what they deserved
What about families of victims who couldn't get justice for their loved ones through the legal system. Would a parent of a dead child be upset at someone killing their baby's murdered? Yeah, I don't think so
In most comics Jason comes after the worst of the worst. Human traffickers, serial rapists, active pedophiles etc. People the victims and victims families would much prefer to see dead rather than alive in jail for a few years and then let go to walk free again
Being a victim and seeing Batman yelling at and attacking person who saved you and gave you justice would create a massive whiplash. It would make you feel that Batman wasn't on your side, on the side of the victim. How can the lifes of those criminals be more important than yours
Batman should be confronted with the reality that a lot of people would sided with Jason in those situations. We, the readers, should see a scene similar to that iconic Ragman panel
where people protect Ragman from Batman because for them he is their protector. It doesn't matter to them that he technicly kills people. He's protecting them and making their part of Gotham a safer place to live and they're willing to stand against Batman for him
It also shows how disconected Bruce can be from regular Gotham citizens and what they would consider justice. Something that we rarely see in Bruce vs Jason stories when it really should be at the core of their conflict
At the end of the day, DC doesn't like Jason and they don't want Bruce to be wrong so we will probably never see a moment like this between them. Still, it's nice to speculate over greatness that would be a realistic reaction to someone like Red Hood from the perspective of the victim of the person he killed
also adding this to my 'jason gets relatively little on-screen buildup in his relationships/friendships bc when he lets you into his heart, he's rly easy to love' headcanon coping pile
One of my favourite stories from the time when bruce and selina were engaged is when damian and selina both went on a secret mission to rescue cats (and Damian’s cat) from the penguin, and then she ‘stole’ the penguin’s money and even though damian disapproved he still didn’t tell on her, neither did she tell on him, but at the end she actually donated it all to an animal sanctuary in his name :
^^ also ‘your hogwarts letter has finally arrived’ sends me every single time, and this post is lowkey in response to the ‘evil step-mother’ allegations selina gets, damian feels comfortable to sit around and hang out with her and bruce in silence and doesn’t lash out at her teasing (which would be the appropriate reaction if she was evil/mean), and the way he didn’t snitch on her proves that he doesn’t feel the need to get rid of her because if she was actually evil i would think he would do anything in his powers to prove that to bruce ??
if you ever feel bad for being an annoying chud when you engage with bad faith discourse on comic internet, remember the patron saint of this business. he's very proud of you and supports you in your endeavors to be an insufferable fuck when it comes to comics. go forth, soldier
I know we are all excited about this, and as I’ve posted a couple times today, we have been shown and mini preview for the first issue and what it’ll look like
This is only solidifying my excitement and the fact that I KNOW I will love wildcard but beyond that
I LOVE the style of this and all the colors are just so nice to look at
I cannot wait till we get more information in ref to this and an actual preview !!
They should just kill him again/ he should've stay dead if they don't know what to do with his character THEN THEY SHOULD FIGURE IT OUT. THEN THEY HAVE TO DO BETTER. THEY HAVE TO BE BETTER. WE HAVE TO BE BETTER.
“The appeal of Jason Todd is that he is an asshole.”
Honestly, I’ve heard this argument before, and I just brushed it off because it seemed completely… absurd and baseless to me. It didn’t even make me angry, you know? It was more like… confused, baffled, and disappointed? It’s like hearing someone say, “The appeal of Batman is that he’s super friendly and emotionally open.” Like.
I don’t know, I feel like that is the niche DC and the stories usually assign to Jason, but that’s exactly why it feels so forced. The more I read, the more forced it seems to cast Jason in the role of the “asshole.” But that’s just my take. Just my own thoughts. If I had to pick, the comic that most clearly pigeonholes him as an “asshole” is probably Countdown. It’s funny, though, because at the same time, that story portrays him as an asshole in the most superficial way I’ve ever seen.
Basically, any “asshole” move Jason pulls feels half-hearted. He’s all bark and no bite. Sure, he says some nasty things now and then. He’s got a bit of an attitude. But he doesn’t actually do anything to justify everyone hating his guts. Calling Jason an “asshole” in Countdown feels like a stretch; it’s more like he’s “kind of a jerk” or “a bit of a pain in the ass.” Not to mention, he’s just a kid in that story, while the other heroes are all much older. Yet, for some reason, everyone hates him with such intensity.
I don’t know, it just feels out of proportion to me. Generally speaking, the term "asshole" usually refers to people who are arrogant, unlikable, and morally questionable. The kind who say nasty things, provoke others, act haughtily, and are universally disliked. It’s hard to slot this type into a standard character archetype; they are clearly distinct from the typical "villain," yet calling them a "third-rate villain" would be giving them too much credit. They seem to occupy their own separate category: the "supporting character with an asshole personality." The most recent example that comes to mind is Flash from the Spiderman movies ig? He constantly bullied and targeted Peter in the early installments, whereas the unlikability of Jason in Countdown felt truly generic and wasn't really directed at anyone in particular. Countdown was an incredibly superficial, lazy attempt to cast Jason in the "asshole" mold. Ultimately, he didn't do anything particularly egregious from start to finish, yet everyone hated him to an absurd degree. It baffles me.
I think this is the main issue I have with Countdown. Clearly, both the narrative and Jason himself were trying to position him as an "asshole" within the story. I’m not sure what significance that held for the Countdown plot itself, but regarding Jason, I found it interesting: he played the asshole because that was exactly how the story— and the other characters—expected him to behave. The story assigned him that role, and he played into it. People expected him to be an asshole, so why not? He gave them exactly what they expected. It might seem a bit confusing, but honestly, if you decide someone is a terrible, unpleasant, and total asshole, chances are they’ll treat you exactly the way you expect—regardless of whether they’re actually like that or not.
The frustrating part here is that both the effort put into Jason’s character and the narrative arc turning him into an asshole feel incredibly superficial and shallow. Jason isn't actually "an asshole"; he just maintains a superficial "asshole" veneer, using an unpleasant attitude and harsh words. But that’s the extent of it. And clearly, he doesn't even have to try very hard, because people immediately latch onto that surface-level persona and instantly hate him. It’s a classic case of… subliminal? A self-fulfilling prophecy? Something like that. That "I knew this guy was insufferable" kind of vibe.
I mean, if DC really wanted to position him as an asshole, they should have done it right. If they wanted to convince us that he’s such a jerk that it makes sense for everyone, every single superhero, to hate him, they needed to include at least the following elements:
Harsh language. Basic-level insults. Calling people "morons" or "losers."
Harsh language. Truly harsh language. The character constantly twisting the knife in the protagonist's emotional wounds. Repeatedly saying the exact things the protagonist doesn't want to hear. Reminding them of their most regretted mistakes. Saying things that provoke such a strong reaction that the protagonist grows to loathe them. Genuinely loathe them, and for that hatred to be completely justified.
A basic tendency toward violence.
At least a baseline level of questionable morality.
Scumbag behavior at a basic level.
Scumbag behavior that violates all moral—or even legal—standards. (Characters defined as "scumbags" tend to lean more toward violating moral standards, whereas villains lean slightly more toward violating the law.)
Backstabbing teammates. Killing pigs, kidnapping children, pushing an old woman into the sea, and deceiving everyone. Truly despicable actions that inflict harm on others.
An utter lack of remorse. This is crucial. In fact, the "scumbag" character should be arrogant, self-satisfied, or even gleeful about their actions, mocking the heroes.
Everyone hates them.
To some extent, he faces no consequence, or no one can really do anything about him, which makes him even more detestable. Because the role of a "scumbag" differs from that of a standard "villain," he avoids long-term repercussions; this makes him even more loathsome, further aggravating both the other characters and the readers. And he remains incredibly smug about it.
I’ll reiterate: these are just my thoughts. It’s fine if you disagree, but your disagreement doesn't really have any bearing on this post.
Of course, not every "asshole" character meets these exact criteria, but for me, a character who is "such a asshole that everyone, including all the superheroes, hates him" must meet this standard. Furthermore, a character who is such an "asshole" to a level that that becomes an appealing trait must reach this level. And the superficial jerkiness Jason displayed in Countdown was just boring and cheap, bordering on annoying. He reached the bare minimum level of bad words and an attitude, but on the actions aspect, the only thing he did that was kinda countable is betrayed the team and shot Domna, but that was a play and was to help them escape? If the story was trying to make Jason appears like an asshole, they have to actually make it convincing.
Then we have utrh. And, albeit reluctantly, most of his appearances throughout the rest of the post crisis era. Now we're getting sidetracked. Clearly, this part of the story positions Jason as a villain, not just an asshole. However, this version of the character is far more convincing, and he somehow inherits traits typical of a "bastard," stemming from his history as a villain, he was endowed with many characteristics usually reserved for bad guys: constantly antagonizing the heroes, questionable morals, violent tendencies, ethically dubious actions, and an unapologetic attitude. To me, this iteration scores higher on the "bastard" scale, but again this story positions him as an antagonist rather than just a generic jerk. His most egregious act, carrying a bag of severed heads, falls squarely into the category of morally questionable behavior, both in terms of its effectiveness and its impact. Compare this to Jason in Countdown: he engaged in "deception" and "betrayal," but those were merely ruses to save the team. It was a poor attempt at playing the bastard; it didn't fit the archetype at all, so I have to dock him points. Jason’s "bastard" persona in Countdown didn't even clear the minimum bar for me; he only managed the basics, like harsh language and an unpleasant attitude.
But then, and I think others have pointed this out, there is a certain artificiality to Jason’s persona in utrh. Whether or not you view him as naturally dramatic, that trait was clearly amplified to the point of being theatrical. There is a palpable sense of phoniness to the role, as if he is showing you exactly what he wants you to see.
Now, compare his portrayal in utrh with his role in Countdown, then compare both of those to his characterization in the New 52, and finally, compare the utrh persona with how he presents himself at the end of that same story. You can spot the artificiality of his Red Hood persona when contrasted with his truly authentic self during the confrontation. Or, compare his behavior in Countdown: his prickly attitude when the Titans track him down and when he recounts his story to Jimmy Olsen; his general demeanor toward superheroes and his interactions with Donna before their relationship fractured. Like when he sought her out to warn her about the Monitors and comforted her at Bart’s funeral. Then there’s his role within the Bat-family during the New 52 era (I’m still struggling to reconcile the shift from Pre-New 52 to New 52), where he’s portrayed as a guy who is "kind of unlikable, formerly a bad guy and a killer who’s now reformed, yet still somewhat abrasive." Compare how he acts around Dick, Tim, and Damian, who view him as a jerk, with how he treats Barbara. And regarding Damian: I think he shows a certain level of patience and tolerance toward the kid. Then compare that to his dynamic with Bruce. Finally, weigh his "jerkish" behavior toward the Bat-family in the New 52 against the "jerkish" nature of some of the things Bruce did to him; I’d ask you to consider which actions truly deserve that label. Which ones should be classified as betrayal, deceit, inhumanity, or a violation of basic moral standards?
To simply label Jason a "jerk" in the New 52 era feels incredibly superficial to me, it’s judging the story purely on the surface. In reality, none of his actions really warrant that kind of negative mark, especially when compared to what others have done.
(n52 narrowed down his characterization into a bad guy who killed people but reformed and make it shallow, so it's easy for them to just position him as an asshole with an attitude ig. But he's all bark and no bite.)
In short, this is based on my reading experience spanning from the Post-Crisis era to the New 52, so it might be incomplete or even incorrect. But if I'm not mistaken, his era of vile villainy came to an end after post crisis, and he became a reformed villain after N52. Along with that, the cruel, evil, and despicable acts he committed, and those quoted by readers, were all encapsulated in the post-crisis. “He disguised himself as Nightwing and killed people,” “he slit Tim’s throat,” “he tried to make Bruce kill Joker” (seriously?), “he shot Damian,” “he kidnapped and beat Mia,” “he slit Tim’s throat.” “He killed people” the most boring argument of my life.
I keep thinking that in N52 he must have gone through a thousand identity crises, and tended to play the bad guy to serve the story or what others think of him. The fact that his narrative is allowed to say, "Oh my god, I was so angry," makes me want to pull my hair out. Even worse, he'll talk about his Robin phase like this: "I was so angry, Bruce tried so hard, I failed, I was so violent and needed Bruce to guide me," like I was going to start killing people with my bare hands.
Anyway, my main point is not to argue whether is Jason an asshole or not, it's saying that "the appeal of Jason Todd is that he is an asshole" is ridiculous to me, because to me, he truly failed miserably in that role. Countdown was a joke, but in N52, he was simply pathetic and everyone's favorite punching bag. I just wonder what it would be like if everyone thought he was a completely evil, wicked bastard by nature, when the truth is the complete opposite, but clearly, this role of his is still going to continue. Even in 100 years, the characters and fans will still think he's a jerk, I'm sure.
snowghoul
pixelskylines
s-u-f-j-a-n-s-t-e-v-e-n-s
ellievsbear
baratheonpilled
