#actor chemistry

[absolutebl]

Giving Good Kiss in BL

From an acting perspective there's a good YouTube video on how to kiss and show chemistry on screen plus analysis of some of Hollywood’s most famous kisses. 

But I’m interested in the watcher/critic perspective. So... 

Let’s smooch it out.

For the purposes of this discussion I am only going to talk about mouth kissing, (AKA sexual intent romantic partner kissing). I’m not going to delve into forehead kissing (worship, benediction, sacred love) or cheek kissing (familial, affection, filial love). 

I think a good kiss (from the viewers perspective) comes down to three things: 

emotional resonance (AKA empathy - heart) - face expression, eye contact

physical reactions (AKA sexual responses - body) - breath matching, lip softness, hand movements, body language & stiffness

sympathetic execution (AKA intellectual connection - mind) - dialogue delivery, interplay and push/pull or call and response

In other words, the audience needs to feel that the characters  

like each emotionally 

desire each other physically 

are enjoying it (AKA understand each others needs intellectually)

We kinda wrap it all up under the umbrella term "chemistry." 

Some BL pairs only gets one or two of the three right. Sometimes only one half of the couple is good at any of it. Sometimes it's a miss-match with one actor good at transmitting emotion and the other physical interest. Sometimes this miss-match is intentional because one character is imposing his will in a dominant fashion. in which case the chemistry of the kiss itself is intentionally askew. 

Chemistry involves mental, physical, and emotional comfort levels and transmitting them on screen. 

That's why the Taiwanese workshopping techniques are so admirable, whatever they do really helps their actors give good all round chemistry. 

Taiwanese BL has its issues but on screen chemistry is NOT one of them. Almost all their pairings are really really good at all three elements. Here’s SamYu from We Best Love workshopping as an example of how to build trust and comfort before kissing scenes. To counter here’s a BTS from Light On Me showing lack of preparation for the final kiss scene. Korea seems to spring kisses on their actors without any effort to get them physically comfortable with each other. You can see why Korean romances (in general) don’t handle kisses well (with a few exceptions, of course).  

Types of Smooches 

So there are also different kinds of kisses: 

THE DEMANDING KISS (seme to uke, most common in BL) 

One character is clearly in charge, so there is a power imbalance (many viewers find the imbalance itself sexy) and usually a strong seme/uke dynamic. This is not necessarily an imbalance in desire (although it often is for the first kisses), but in character dominance/submission. Sometimes the kiss is talked about or permission is requested beforehand (DeanPharm in UWMA). 

THE MUTUAL KISS  

Both characters want to kiss at the same time, no one is in charge. Harder to execute as the actors have to telegraph unspoken communication usually with eye contact, mouth glances, and breath matching (Jeff & Gameplay in Ingredients did a great job at this type of kiss). 

A good mutual kiss generally only occurs when characters have a weak seme/uke dynamic and high emotional resonance. It’s awesome in slow burn and friends to lovers romances. 

Although both the above visuals and from Thailand, Taiwan is also particularly good at this kind of kiss. 

THE SUDDEN KISS 

One boy darts forward or pulls the other boy into a surprise kiss which can result in a range of responses from: 

a willing melt to 

a dead fish response (the first kiss in To My Star) to 

a push away and mouth wipe to 

a punch 

From an acting perspective this is the easiest kiss to execute. Sometimes it’s the seme who surprises the uke, but more often it’s the uke relenting that causes this kind of kiss. Both come strongly from a yaoi traditions. The shirt collar (or tie grab) and drag forward is particularly popular. 

THE LTR KISS (AKA long term relationship kissing) 

In this case kissing in general is clearly something done by the characters on the regular. These kinds of kisses reinforce a love and affection already in place, rather than most of the ones I’ve mentioned which are first/early/establishing kisses. 

Generally speaking, the acting pair has to be really comfortable with each other to make an LTR kiss work, or insanely good actors. It’s rare in BL because sexualized LTRs are rarely represented at all. TayNew are pretty good at this kind of kiss and also SamYu at the end of both seasons of WBL. Acting pairs who have worked together a while and specialize in high heat are also good at this so: MaxTul and MewGulf. The best ones to execute this plus low heat are BothNewyear in Top Secret Together’s episode 13. They are generally great at all the casual touch comfort of an LTR... for obvious reasons (they are an IRL LTR couple). 

THE DEAD FISH KISS

Annoyed fan short-hand for any kiss where the actors fail at all three aspects of chemistry. Sometimes it is entirely understandable (the actors are minors, there has been no workshopping, etc...) but it’s still no fun to watch. Classic examples are PhunNoh in Love Sick and TeeFuse in Make it Right. (MIR even makes a self referential joke about this in Make It Right on the Beach.) 

This is the kind of kiss where the actors clearly don’t know what to do and/or are uncomfortable with each other, which makes the audience uncomfortable. Usually, they just press firmly closed lips together and the camera pans out and around to the back of the head. Most of the time it’s not intentional. (Which means the actors are transmitting the wrong kind of emotion to the watcher.) Much as I adore Color Rush, it has this kind of kiss. 

Sometimes a dead fish kiss works with the story. The first kisses in To My Star showcase one side of the equation in dead fish mode intentionally. This means that the final kiss, which is very much mutual, has that much more resonance. It was a genius move on Korea’s part. 

THE NON-ROMANTIC EMOTIONAL KISS 

This is when a kiss is used to transmit some other form of emotion, usually the opposite from normal - desperation, loss, despair, sadness. The kiss is neither romantic nor sexual nor sympathetic. It intentionally contrasts the 3 elements that make up good chemistry by activating chemistry in an opposite direction, so that in the moment of the kiss the characters don’t like, desire, or enjoy each. However, the audience needs to feel that they could, or once had, the initial 3 criteria foundation. From an acting perspective this is very difficult to do. The stairwell reunion kiss in Brokeback Mountain is a good example of a non-romantic emotional kiss. 

This kind of kiss is almost never done in BL, or if it is, it’s not done well, because it requires an insane amount of trust between the acting pair and skill from the actor portraying aggressor to maintain audience sympathy. (The other kind of kiss that intentionally avoids the 3 core elements of chemistry is the kind that is a violent act of non-consent.) 

The best example of a non-romantic but super emotional kiss is THAT kiss in We Best Love: Fighting Mr. Second and it was (and still is) contentious because the treads the consent line. In my experience of BL so far, only Japan (His is another great example) and Taiwan have ever really used this kiss. 

THE HIGH HEAT KISS 

How to put this? Well, there’s usually tongue involved and it’s mostly emphasizing the physical aspect of a clearly sexual relationship - it’s hella gay. Very few Thai, Vietnamese, or Korean pairs do high heat kissing. Lots of early Chinese pre-censorship did and some of the darker stuff from Japan still does. Only Taiwan consistently puts this kind of kiss into their BL.  

Examples 

Why is BL so obsessed with MewGulf? Well the actors were consistently excellent at all 3 elements of a good kiss and gave high heat kisses. Because of them we genuinely believed that Tharn & Type: 

liked each emotionally

desired each other physically

and enjoyed it (AKA understood each others needs intellectually)

Individually both Mew and Gulf transmitted this to the audience, and together as a couple they also managed to do so. The short hand is... they had great chemistry. (Incidentally, Mew has good chemistry with other partners. He did high heat successfully in What the Duck too.) 

ZeeSaint were pretty good at all of it as well, but they excelled at elements 2 & 3 in particular. 

MaxTul in the later parts of the Together series and in Manner of Death were also excellent allrounders. 

The friends to lovers dynamic is particularly good at moving characters towards all three aspects, because 1 & 3 are already established, only the physical is required to shift the dynamic into a romantic relationship. Personally, I’m a fan of this dynamic pivot occurring because of a one night stand or drunken kiss expressly because it can be that tipping point and it makes the sexual encounter particularly charged (Second Chance and 2 Moons 2 both used this approach).  

Singto & Krist in SOTUS, on the other hand had 1. great emotional resonance but 2. poor physical reactions (especially Krist) and 3. weak execution. Their couple comes off as kind of ace as a result. 

The characters clearly liked each other but equally clearly the actors don't wanna kiss each other, so when they do on screen they don't seem to enjoy it, and they can’t seem to stop that from showing to viewers. 

Some pairs can be really good at transmitting elements 1 + 3 (which is emotional affection and intellectual couple connection) but not great at the physical/sexual component. 

On the flip side, Singto & Tae in Paint with Love have little to no chemistry of any kind, yet their first kiss in episode 4 is very good. They are now the best example we have of a BL couple who have suddenly given good physical chemistry but have no intellectual or emotional chemistry. It was WILD to watch. 

That said the 2016 SintoKrist style of approach (good emotion, okay intellectual, poor physical) is now quite common in Thai BL (and most Korean stuff). And is legally mandated by censorship in modern Chinese BL (such as it is). 

The industry term for this kind of heat level is sweet romance. 

Which is to say, the physical aspect of the relationship is deemed less important than the other two (overtly, or simply through lack of representation). 

Watchers find this easy to forgive (and many prefer it) because we are trained to accept sweet romance in most romcoms and/or come from sexually repressed and prudish backgrounds. Or, ya know, are heterosexuals who think the gays kissing is “cute” but really don’t want to think about anything more than a kiss. 

(Yes there’s more going on here, but I’m not unpacking a history of queer cinema for ya, or the repressed machinations of your personal psyche, we’re just talking kisses here.) 

Do I think sweet romance is morally or ethically wrong? 

Nope. Not at all. Color Rush is one of my favorite BLs of all time, it has very poor chemistry and a dead fish kiss. Oxygen is the ultimate sweet romance and I love it even though the lead pair’s chemistry is all over the place. TharnType is one of the highest heat best chemistry BLs in existence and I can’t even begin to count the number is problems I have with it. 

Being critical of something does not mean you must forbid yourself from loving it. That too is a kind of chemistry. Understanding and accepting our own relationship with (and comfort taken from) these narratives is what I’m after. 

* A quick note from the production side. I don’t know how exactly this works in Asian production houses, but kisses can be expensive. Like literally. Often there are contract clauses indicating how many and how intimate they are, and with which other actors. Which is why we see main couples kiss but not side couples. Or the reverse, if side actors are particularly cheap, they might kiss more. 

The Damage Done By Uneven Chemistry 

But there is other stuff going on to with low heat BL, culturally and narratively. 

Diminishing the high heat aspects and the overtly gay physical connection of couple chemistry has tons of inadvertent messaging attached. Not just anti-sex. 

It makes the gay-for-you more obvious (the characters don’t really desire each other, they just love each other so much they’re willing to make an exception to their “natural” inclinations AKA it’s okay because it’s you) *sigh* 

It makes the characters seem less gay over all. Because heaven forfend they be actually gay and want to screw each other. 

When physical relations are required, they are shrouded in an aura of “I just can’t help myself, he’s too cute” desperation, which inevitably leads to drunken dubious or non-consensual situations. (Because if they actually wanted each other in a healthy way = too gay.)

It’s easier on the actors to lean towards bromance over gay. 

It encourages an international audience’s assumption that certain Asian countries are sexually repressed. 

It plays nice with a homophobic audience and censorship.

On a mercenary level, less sexiness = more acceptable time slots, age ratings, distribution, and reach. 

It’s so much the norm in Thai BL, that when high heat good chemistry does show up, audiences freak out and immature minds assume the actors must be in a relationship themselves because it couldn’t possibly be that they’re, ya know, ACTORS who are GOOD AT THEIR JOBS. 

My little queer arse is gonna take a few breaths and calm down now. 

But I do think game shows, interviews, and IRL skinship obsession is juvenile at best and stupidly damaging and hurtful to the talent at worse. It reminds me of those people who yell at actors in supermarkets because they play the baddie on a daytime soap opera. 

You do know how to separate reality and fiction, right? Oh wait, this is the internet. Probably not. 

Imma talk about Lovely Writer for a mo. 

Lovely Writer is consciously trying to correct for a TON of wrongs that sweet romance in BL, uneven chemistry, and Thai BL in general, has wrought over the years. Pretty much all those messages I listed above? Lovely Writer is attempting to rectify: 

Gene is explicitly not gay-for-you. 

It's making it clear the couple wants to screw each other.

It’s putting consent front and center.

This is tough on both actors, but they are stepping up to the plate as much as possible. 

It's actively battling ideas around Asians being sexually repressed, and it did this particularly well with the family coming out sequence.

It's challenging homophobic audiences and censorship.

It’s risking good time slots, broad age ratings, distribution, and reach because of this. 

It’s directly pointing out the damage IRL skinship and fan stalker behavior can do to actors personally and professionally. 

Which is why shipping KaoUp is kinda stomach churning and pretty flipping disgusting. Do not comment, just unfollow if you disagree. I don’t want to hear justification for obsessive objectification; celebrity fetishization; demonized sexualization; public outing; touch shaming; or diminishment of a popular performer’s privacy, agency, or autonomy as a result of their job. 

In conclusion: 

WATCH & SUPPORT LOVELY WRITER!!!!! 

Best Kisses in BL? 

(Main couples unless otherwise mentioned. Kisses only. This is not an assessment of the quality of the drama itself, or whether I personally enjoyed it. Alphabetical order.)

Bad Buddy (Thai) 

Be Loved In House: I Do (Taiwan) 

Cornered Mouse Dreams of Cheese (Japan) 

Golden Blood (Thai - both couples) 

HIStory Obsessed (Taiwan)

HIStory 2 Crossing the Line (Taiwan)

HIStory 2 Right or Wrong (Taiwan) 

HIStory 3 Make Our Days Count (Taiwan - both couples)

HIStory 3 Trapped (Taiwan - both couples)

HIStory 4 Close to You (Taiwan - both couples) 

Ingredients (Thai)

Just Friends? (Korea)

Love Area 2 (Thai) 

Like In The Movies (Pinoy)

Long Time No See (Korea)

Lovely Writer (Thai) 

Manner of Death (Thai)

My Day (Pinoy)

Most Peaceful Place Is You (Vietnam)

Pornographer series (Japan)

Paint with Love (Thai) 

Second Chance (Thai - both couples) 

See You After Quarantine? (Taiwan) 

TharnType 1 & 2 (Thai)

To My Star (final kiss only - Korea)

Together with Me (Thai)

Until We Meet Again (Thai - all couples) 

Why R U? (Thai - both couples)

We Best Love 1 & 2 (Taiwan)

Y-Destiny (Thailand - some of the couples) 

You Are Ma Boy (Vietnam)

I’m watching a few right now that might make this list in the future. 

Here’s me being silly about this: Chef de Smooching - Recipes for BL Iron Chef Thailand 

And more bits and bobs about boys kissing boys

Early Thai BL’s issues with kissing, and how MaxTul broke the mold and deserve awards 

More about workshopping kissing scenes - SamYu and Taiwan’s approach (as opposed to others) and why/how its done from a production standpoint (plus more on MaxTul) 

Top Ten Best Kisses from Taiwanese BL (in other words, the best of the best) 

VegasPete in KinnPorsche - why they won my heart 

(source)

(Last updated in 2021 - Korea is correcting for it’s mistakes in a big way in 2022 ~ P’ABL from the future)

[gillianthecat]

I am extremely impressed with Boss and Noeul for their acting in their sex scenes, and even more impressed that it was "improvised." Although I haven't seen the interview in question, so I'm not exactly sure what that means. Was it all created in the moment? Did the two of them plan it out beforehand - does improvised here mean created mainly by the actors rather than the director?(Quite possibly the interview answers all that.)

(Interestingly, I find their acting much better in their sex scenes, including the kissing and that scene in the bathroom stall, than the rest of the time. I'm not sure what this means since I don't know what was going on on set. Are they better at directing themselves than the director is? Is it because they have a greater clarity of purpose for the physical stuff?)

But as impressive as it is, I can't help but feel concerned for the actors. I've read too many things about actors being pressured into doing uncomfortable things and making themselves too vulnerable for the sake of a "natural" sex scene. Especially since they're both so young - while 23 isn't that young, they're both pretty new in the industry, and that just seems like a vulnerable position for them to be in. I'm not an actor myself, but it seems like actors have generally considered the introduction of intimacy coordinators, and of carefully planning out what the actors are and aren't going to do ahead of time, an improvement, something that protects them.

I obviously don't know what this was like for Noeul and Boss. Perhaps controlling the scene themselves made them feel safer than being directed through it would have. Perhaps they did get all that support and just aren't talking about it (or it's not making it to places where I'm reading about it). Hopefully they felt safe the whole time and will never look back and feel they were made too vulnerable. I am very grateful for their bravery and the work they put into creating such beautiful scenes.

(I also don't know how NC scenes are typically done in the Thai film/drama industry, in general, or for BL specifically. Is some degree of improv typical? I haven't watched that much behind the scenes stuff, but I also highly doubt any actors would be honest about any discomfort in promotional materials. And no offense Cheewin, but I'm not going to treat War of Y as a documentary on the subject, for either the good or the bad.)

[heretherebedork]

Being completely oblivious to actor chemistry is a fascinating experience in BL fandom.

I don't notice when they kiss badly, I don't see the reluctance very often... and if I do, I see it entirely in character.

This is things like... Talay being reluctant and hesitant because he doesn't even know Puen's real name and they're in this alternate universe and he's single because he thinks it's for the best so he doesn't want this love.

This is also... Duen Yi flinching away in his own dream because as much as he thinks he wants Plengruk to kiss him he's not at all ready for all of what that actually entails and really just wants the love connection to try to write songs again.

This is... Kim and Chay's awkward softness because their age difference, status difference and knowledge difference means that Kim can't relax and Chay sees him not relaxed but doesn't understand why and it just works.

But this is also means that no matter how high heat, no matter how good their actor chemistry is, I will never care if the characters don't work for me.

I will not be providing examples for this because I don't feel like being attacked again.

But yeah, it's fascinating to me because I know a lot of people can enjoy couples on their actor-chemistry alone and I know a lot of couples that I'm sure get most of their popularity because the actors have good chemistry because, for me, the characters sure don't (again, no examples, thanks I like my head) in the show.

[hologramcowboy]

Seeing your Walker and Micki reblog reminded me of how much I miss her on the show. Cassie is adorable but she’ll never beat Micki for me. Jared and Lindsey’s chemistry was so good. 😔

Fully agree. ❤️ Lindsey had something soulful about her that made her vulnerability so powerful on screen. Cassie is adorable but I loved Micki with Walker much more.

[lonewanderingwolf]

I think it’s very fascinating how we all view chemistry on screen as well as the relationship the actors, writers, et al. are attempting to portray. I think a lot of it comes from our own experiences. What comes off as a healthy, good relationship to some equates to boring for others. What others see as toxic, others see as passionate.

It definitely makes for interesting discourse. 

I’ll use Gilmore Girls as an example.

Obviously, I’m biased because I knew from the pilot I was going to want Luke and Lorelai together. I thought Lauren Graham and Scott Patterson had really good chemistry and I still think they do (or did in the revival). And yet, it’s inevitable that if I’m on a message board where GG is being discussed, there will be those who think the chemistry wasn’t there, or it was there in the earlier seasons when LL were doing their constant dance around each other and that it dissipated once they were written as a couple.

A little warning, I really loathe Christopher with every fiber of my being so if you like him, you might not want to read on.

I can admit that yes, David Sutcliffe and Lauren Graham had more of a playful chemistry, but to me, that didn’t mean Lorelai and Chris worked as a couple. Quite the opposite. I know Lorelai bugs a lot of people. I can’t help but love her, but even for me, she’s 12,000 times more obnoxious when she’s around Chris. I happened to turn on the TV the other day and season seven was on (I usually avoid this season and pretend it never happened) and goodness, how the hell I got through that season is beyond me. 

Lorelai reverts back into being a teenager around Chris and it’s so off-putting. 

Now around Luke, Lorelai is her best self. Or I suppose the best self that she can possibly be since, yes, Lorelai can be awfully selfish and self-centered, but I think Luke grounds her and she loosens him up. 

I always see the comments that Lorelai looks miserable around Luke and never seems happy. Meanwhile, with Chris, she’s flirty, etc. That for me is a two-fold response. One, I don’t think she’s unhappy. I just think she’s more grounded. Two, there’s a long history there with Chris and again, the fact that both of them still act like fucking seventeen year olds around each other so naturally, they come off as more playful.

However, I think Lorelai is also very playful and jokey around Luke. There’s that one scene in 3x04 “One’s Got Class and the Other One Dyes” when she finds Luke’s picture in the school hallway and she mocks him about being Butch Danes. You can see Luke smiling. He enjoys the banter. 

But....yeah. I seem to have lost the point of this post. LOL. I guess it was that chemistry + relationships are just inevitably going to differ to all of us. 

[gillianthecat]

Our Dating Sim was one of the most purely cute things I've seen, yet it also felt like there was more to it than just fluff. Good show.

The two leads had such a wonderfuly comfortable chemistry with each other. It really made the whole thing work.

[gillianthecat]

yeah ppl tend to forget how we don't really now these actors irl, they are always acting to some degree when we see them ESPECIALLY when they are around eo and i feel like if you're a good actor you can fake chemistry, and also two people can be best friends and not really good actors so that doesn't reach the screen, it's all so subjective tbh but i believe chemistry is totally connected to the acting skills, even if you have flawless natural connection with someone you have to learn how to show that in front of the camera, how to be kinda vulnerable with the audience and your partner. but also i fully believe there's an unexplainable thing that happens when two people meet and start a "relationship", a work related one in this case, that can make them click or not click and that you can't really choose, you choose how you work on it or how you present it to the world

that said i feel like some of these actors are genuine friends but like i could count them on the fingers of one hand, and even though i think that helps with the on screen chemistry idt it's a given

thanks, anon! really good points all.

I read recently (and don't quote me on this, it's just from memory) that Idris Elba's real life daughter auditioned to play his daughter in a movie and wasn't cast because she wasn't the right fit. Obviously that could have been for many reasons, but it also goes to show that real life relationships don't necessarily translate to onscreen ones.

Yeah, and there really is a level of subjectivity to it. Some audience members may think a pair has great chemistry while others just don't see it.

[gillianthecat]

why do you think there are cp with chemistry while acting but almost none of it irl (i think this is the most common option) but also pairs with really good chemistry irl that absolutely vanishes when they start filming (re: bounprem imo) like how does one explain that? maybe the direction? i wanted to know your take on this

Thanks for this question, anon!  I love having conversations about BL. (this is in reference to this post on "chemistry")

This isn’t in response to your ask, but I want to say that now that I’m writing more about BL I understand better why people are using the term “chemistry” so much.  It’s a very convenient shorthand for describing the connection between two characters/actors, wherever it comes from.  And less embarrassing/revealing than saying, "wow that was really hot and sexy and I'm kinda turned on right now." I don’t know if my original post came across as an attack, but I apologize if it was offensive to anyone.  The idea that I mostly wanted to wrestle with is what people were attributing that chemistry to, and how that could play into shipping culture.  But “chemistry” is a very useful word! I keep using it myself.

On to your ask, anon.  I don’t watch that many interviews or promotional tours, so I don’t have any specific examples in mind.  And I’m not an actor myself, nor do I have any inside knowledge on the industry. But I can give you my theories on why this could be the case.

I'm including this stock photo again because I love it so

I think it’s important to remember, as @heretherebedork, @absolutebl and others often say, that whenever these actors are in front of the camera they’re performing to at least some degree.  How much is a performance of self and how much is an invented persona probably depends on the actor, but all of these interviews etc are parts of their jobs, so they’re paying attention to how their interactions look to outsiders. So we can’t know (without creepy invasive paparazzi footage) how actors behave with each other in their actual real lives.

As for why they might have chemistry in interviews but not while filming, or vice versa?  I think it could be any number of reasons.  Like you said, it could be the directing.  And I think there are many things outside the actors' performances that create the feeling of chemistry, especially the cinematography, music and editing, so it could be that.  

It could also be the actors are more comfortable with each other in one setting over the other. Perhaps they’re great actors at playing a character, but don’t want to put that much work in creating a public persona.  Perhaps they don’t actually like each other that much, not necessarily hate each other, but just aren’t that close.  I imagine the better they get along, the easier it is to create an image of "chemistry."

The environment and framework of filming is much different than for interviews and other promotional stuff - those are essentially long takes where the actors have to be “on” the whole time, and improvising rather than following a script.  I suspect those two things are actually pretty different skill sets.

Or for the opposite, perhaps they’re more relaxed playing “themself” and not actually that good at acting as a character (again, I’m not thinking of any specific actors here, just theorizing). Or their acting style doesn't mesh well with their screen partner's. Or maybe the script/directing/cinematography/editing/sound design did them dirty.

Anon, do you have any theories? Thanks for asking!