#dagorlad

[ranger616]

I don’t think it can possibly be overestimated how fucking important Celeborn would have been in second age politics, specifically to Gil-galad. I don’t think I see this pointed out enough, and I don’t think it’s possible for it to be pointed out enough.

The fall of Doriath left three (or two, depending on how old you think Thranduil is, either way he was probably a small child if he had been born yet) Sindarin princes alive. Assuming Elmo, Galadhon, and Galathil died in the dwarven invasion or second kinslaying (which they probably did, we never hear anything about them afterward), that takes total princes of the Sindar from nine (or eight) to three (or two).

During the second age, Oropher and Thranduil bugger off and live in their little isolationist forest kingdom. That leaves Celeborn.

See, Celeborn married Galadriel, a lady of the Noldor (despite being only a quarter Noldor but I digress). Galadriel is one of the few remaining Noldor royals in the east (the rest are Elrond and Gil-galad). So, Celeborn, our final free agent prince of the Sindar, is kind of entangled with the Noldor. And over time, I think it becomes obvious that Celeborn is far more involved with Noldorin politics than anything else.

He’s present for the fall of Eregion (most troops in this conflict were either from Eregion or sent by Gil-galad under Elrond’s command), then the founding and first siege of Rivendell. He lives in areas controlled by the Noldor (Eregion/Rivendell specifically), and theoretically is kind of played about with by Gil-galad, who one hundred percent sees the advantage in what he brings to the table.

And nowhere, I think, is Celeborn’s ancestry more important than during the siege of Barad-dûr. Make up your own mind about whether or not Celeborn was there, but Gil-galad would have been a fucking idiot not to bring him.

Let’s get into it. There are three elven kings commanding troops in the Last Alliance- Oropher, Amdír, Gil-galad. Oropher is characteristically ornery and gets himself and a fuck-ton of other people killed at the Battle of Dagorlad (this is the origin of the Dead Marshes) because he doesn’t listen to Gil-galad (for anti-Noldor reasons). Amdír dies during the siege, theoretically pretty early on.

This leaves Gil-galad with a fuck ton of Sindar and Sylvan soldiers who I cannot see being particularly inclined to listen to him. So what’s the best move? Thranduil and Amroth (who are both stupid AF, ngl- Thranduil is hot-headed and loyal to Oropher and one hundred percent not listening to Gil-galad, and everything to do with Amroth’s life and times is just stupid, I’m sorry, I just can’t get over how dumb it is), are now in charge of their peoples, but how effective are they going to be? Neither of them are super loyal to Gil-galad, and both are grief stricken and likely rather volatile for that reason.

What’s the move? Celeborn. Celeborn is the ace up Gil-galad’s sleeve here. He puts Celeborn in charge of liaisoning with Thranduil and Amroth’s armies. Because they will listen to Celeborn, the last prince of the Sindar. And Celeborn is loyal to Gil-galad as much as he’s loyal to either of them. Because of Eregion, because of Rivendell, because of Elrond and Galadriel.

Gil-galad never has a problem like Oropher going off mavericking in the Dagorlad again. Because Celeborn has his back. Just more reasons why Celeborn is the bestest most underrated character in the legendarium.

[cycas]

My apologies for the random question, but I loved your in-depth analysis about Galadriel I just read. Blame it on how my brain works, but I was curious if you have any theory about Oropher's fatal military decision that sealed his fate? Tolkien's description paints him in an unfavourable light, leaving the impression he acted on some petty impulses rather than making a strategic decision that made sense to him.

"...Oropher had the wisdom to foresee that peace would not return unless Sauron was overcome. He therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lórien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle. The Silvan Elves were hardy and valiant, but ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. Their losses were thus more grievous than they need have been, even in that terrible war.

Malgalad and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead Marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance. Thranduil his son survived, but when the war ended and Sauron was slain (as it seemed) he led back home barely a third of the army that had marched to war. ... 1. Malgalad is another name for Amdír; this passage contains its only use." -- Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

I think this is the bit anon means.

Oropher in this account mirrors Gwindor at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; rushing forward before the command is given, but while Gwindor is deliberately driven to break the line by watching his captured brother tortured to death in front of him, there's no reason given for Oropher's early rush into battle.

I think it also mirrors at least one historical battle: the battle of Hastings in 1066. The historians are still arguing about exactly why Harold's men broke the line there, and what effect that had.

That might be a good place to start for sources justifying and explaining Oropher's decision to start the battle.

It could be that Oropher, like Gwindor, saw a beloved captive dismembered. It could be that Oropher was tricked, in the way that, possibly, Harold's army was, by a false retreat - or even saw a real opportunity that genuinely made a difference to the war, but paid a heavy penalty for it.

Wood-elves seem to use bows a lot: maybe they were firing on the army in front of them when it began to retreat, like the Norman cavalry at Hastings who retreated (maybe) from the arrows of the Saxon archers holding the high ground, and the Saxons followed them.

Maybe Oropher knew about Gwindor's great charge at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, how he made it all the way and beat upon the doors of Angband, but could not break in. Perhaps Oropher thought that if he was fast enough, he could follow Mordor's armies right into Mordor, and break the siege that way.

That might fit with a lightly-armoured, fast-moving way of operating, and you can also imagine that heavily-armoured Noldor and Numenoreans used to a different style of fighting did not understand what Oropher tried to do. Or maybe he genuinely didn't have much experience with pitched battle, and made a terrible mistake. Maybe he DID have lots of experience with pitched battles, and still made a mistake.

I might write about this one day, from Amdir Malgalad's point of view, since Amdir is one of my lesser known favorites.

Not sure if Anon will still spot this, but I only just got time to reply.

[velvet4510]

When and where did Thranduil first meet his wife?

In his youth in Doriath

In Sirion after escaping the Doriath kinslaying

On the Isle of Balar after escaping the Sirion kinslaying

In Lindon at the dawn of the Second Age

When he moved to Greenwood (she was a Silvan Elf already living there)

On the frontlines of the Battle of Dagorlad in the east

When she was his healer in the aftermath of the Battle of Dagorlad in the east

Another time, somewhere else

Voting ended onJun 18, 2024

Please share your headcanon of how they met. :)

[laigaming]

Well you didn't leave me unmolested.

What's the safe word again???

[hallothere]

well ow

[savage-kult-of-gorthaur]

"THE MIGHT OF THE ELVES WAS STILL GREAT IN THOSE DAYS, AND THE NÚMENÓREANS... TERRIBLE IN THEIR WRATH."

PIC(S) INFO: Spotlight on the War of the Last Alliance, or more specifically, the Battle of Dagorlad, as depicted in the killer (yet still heavily abridged) prologue to "The Lord of the Rings" (2001), directed by Peter Jackson. New Line Cinema.

"Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the East and the South; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor.... But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor..."

-- "The Silmarillion," "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," by J.R.R. Tolkien

Learn more about the Battle of Dagorlad here: http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=12.

[nova-ardamire-laiqualasse]

Le guerrier victorieux remporte la bataille, puis part en guerre. Le guerrier vaincu part en guerre, puis cherche à remporter la bataille.

The victorious warrior win first the battle, then go to war. The defeated warrior go to war first, then seek to win the battle.

#frenchtolkienfandom

[drogonthered]