The internal epic battle between “I have to analyze the metaphysical mechanics of how Dark Worlds and Darkners work!!! I need to understand all the rules and what’s really going on!!” versus “the understanding of ‘what’s really going on’ is what drove Spamton into madness and Ralsei into a fatalistic lack of self-worth. It is Susie 'not really understanding' Dark Worlds and their metaphysical bullshit, and in fact, rejecting the dichotomy of illusions versus reality and taking the people she meets and the emotions she feels at face value that allows her to so rebellious and so kind. So maybe it’s actually the point to not try and understand them?”
I love all of the Dark Worlds & Darkners in Deltarune so much. I love how diverse they all are. It's encouraged me to learn so many new things
I have taken a deep dive into so many different obscure topics because of these characters. I have watched so many hours worth of CRT TV repair videos and documentaries on how they work, it's making me wish I still had my old one. I've learned so much about computers and coding and debugging that I've actually gotten my own to run much smoother. I've played solitaire again for the first time in years, started learning the rules to chess, busted out my old checkers board, and finished puzzles that have been gathering dust on my shelves for years. I've even learned how to play a few dice games. I HATED dice games. I taught myself how to play freaking Yahtzee! And I'm enjoying it!
I've gained dozens of new obsessions/special interests/hyperfixations/whatever you want to call them. This is more enrichment than my brain has had in years. I forgot how good it was to actually learn something just because I wanted to learn it. And it's all because of this silly little game with it's silly little characters that have me so emotionally invested in them that I just have to learn more
Deltarune is an amazing game and Toby and his team deserve all the love and praise in the world
Anyways, I now have hundreds of files worth of random trivia related to various Darkners saved on my computer. Everything from PDFs of various board, card, and dice game rules, to links to CRT repair videos, to diagrams of what the inside of a microphone is supposed to look like and how it works
I might take me a while to get them organized into something semi-coherent, but if I can manage to get them at least loosely grouped together, would anyone like a post of the various link collections I have put together? I can't be the only one who likes to binge read/watch these things, and I feel like they'd be wasted just sitting in folders on my computer
So. When we first enter the Second Sanctuary in Chapter 4, a few things immediately become apparent.
And that's...pretty much everything is wrong. The place is the wrong color now, mechanics don't *quite* work the same in the puzzle rooms. What were once NPCs have become statues and vice versa. Even those NPCs, the Philosophers, talk about how we now exist on The Other Side of the Mind, amongst alot of other cryptic shit. It's also the side of the mind we find the Egg Room on which is...just....so weird and confusing I don't have time I DON'T HAVE TIME!
As said, the first Philosopher you meat calls this phenomenon, "the Color of the Mind" and says it's changed. I did some deep thinking for a bit and I can only come to the conclusion that the only thing that can change this Color of the Mind is simply who made the Dark World. This Dark World, the only one we've been in where things are so radically weird, was Susie's making. When it's dispersed and we enter the Third Sanctuary by opening the door, the two previous sanctuaries merge into one another, which is a whole question on how Dark World and Time work that may tie into Always Alive theory and once again I DO NOT HAVE TIME!
Point is, when Susie makes a dark world it is a far cry different than the world that the Knight made first before we came here.
...So why is it, when we know for a functional fact that Kris made the TV World Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 2 and through Chapter 3...that it has the same color as every other Dark World before it. Every Dark World that, with the exception of whatever is going on with the Grand Fountain in the supply closet (that's its own can of worms we're not gonna touch right now), we know the Knight made.
Why do Kris and the Knight have the same Color of the Mind?
Now, we do know that there were already alot of parallels between the Knight and Kris. They have similar poses and stuff, we've discussed this stuff to death in this fandom, you know this stuff. My theory is that those minor hints of connection are further enforced by this idea of the Color of the Mind that truly unifies them.
From what I've seen there's a fairly solid theory I can't remember the name of, but it involves the Knight either having Kris' soul while being Dess' body, which isn't a bad theory. It even explains where Kris' soul is. But I have an...alternative.
And it comes from our favorite forgettable spark plug that noone will shed a tear for.
Yeah this relates back to my older theory about Kris and Dess being the ones who played pretend infront of the screen. My theory is that these two share this Color of the Mind because they created this fiction together. Kris made their OCs and so did Dess. Dess made a playing card, the jack of clubs, into a tri-headed beast with three shards of her own personality, while she also made a bossy queen robot out of a laptop, who's motherly charms were very much cobbled from both the mothers she had in her life (Carol and Toriel to be clear).
As far as we can tell, the Second Sanctuary is Susie's first ever attempt at making anything creative. It's pretty clear she's never really been able to be a kid, or even a teen, having to be this image of badass mean girl bully that she never wanted to be. So no matter how much her and Kris are matching freaks, she's just not the same as Dess. Someone who saw what happens when you lay your soul bear in the form of collaborative fiction.
But then, when the Third Sanctuary happens when the two Dark Worlds mix, suddenly they're compatible. The NPCs from both world exist now, together, much to their own confusions. Susie's color may be different, but that doesnt' mean the two can't play well together. :D
What does this all mean? Well I do think it's yet further proof, at least in my head, that Dess is the Knight, in some way or form. Remnant or dead body or fully just in it, Dess is in that armor somewhere. And Kris, dear Kris, they cared about her very deerly (:p)
Enough to form a pretty loose interest in the occult with the local occult interested goth catgirl (every town has at least one of those.)
Enough to use that relationship to summon a "demon", a red heart that they, Kris, give their own name to, instead of the vessel a different being was going to give us, though I doubt they know about that.
Enough to give that demon (most) control over their body and autonomy, to let it do what needs to be done, because they can't do it alone.
Enough to seek out these Shadow Crystals, these strange glass things that have some weird power we don't understand yet.
Is it from guilt about whatever happened at the Roots of this? Partially. But for someone who so matches your Color of the Mind, would you do any less?
Good luck Kris. I'll be right next to you the whole way. No matter how many times you hit me with a hockey puck.
Hello, I've been working a lot on my Undertale Dark Worlds AU recently so I'm going to dump a whole ton of concept art here.
(I plan on making some much nicer graphics actually explaining the details of the AU in depth later but for now I just need to dump all the doodles i've been doing here for tumblr to see)
It's been a while since my last theory, but this one has been brewing in my mind for a long time. Chapter 4 was by far my favourite chapter for many reasons, but one thing hasn't sat right with me since I finished it, and I haven't seen many people talk about it: What the hell is up with the sanctuary dark worlds? In particular, why are the first dark world and the last dark world so different if they are supposedly made by the same person? In my opinion, it's highly unlikely that they were.
This is a long read so read more below the cut.
Chapter 4's dark world starts out like any other. We have come to expect a straightforward world created from the themes of the given location and wacky characters inspired by the objects littering that location. This much is true for Chapter 4's first dark world (I'll call it Dark Sanctuary, after the BGM). We enter a dark world version of the church, and while a few things are a bit off (some darkners are turned to stone from the start, and it's VERY dark in places), nothing really sticks out. We start seeing parts of the prophecy in order, which is to be expected since this dark world is based on the church, and the prophecy seems to be as much of a thing in the light world as the dark world. We later meet Gerson, who is also in all aspects a normal "lightner".
Of course, after closing the fountain, we find out a couple things wrong with this dark world. First off, the fountain is much smaller than other fountains, and it turns out this isn't the main fountain. This explains some things - the dark world being generally darker, and darkners turning to stone due to too much darkness. However, this does not explain why certain darkners are spared while others aren't. A bigger issue also presents itself: Gerson turns out to be a darkner, made alive from his own ashes and the power of the dark world.
Seeking to resurrect her teacher, Susie then creates the Second Sanctuary dark world. Here's where things get very, very interesting. Right away, our heroes notice something is up. The Second Sanctuary is different from the first. Things are wrong. The colours are off, the puzzles are twisted, the terrain is misaligned, and even the music is completely messed up, opening with a sort of alarm or ringtone, and switching between increasingly irregular time signatures. It's not that the dark world is completely different, but it's like it's been shuffled around. The pianos are here, but they are out of tune, and the puzzles associated with them work in reverse. We then see this extends to the prophecy as well.
In the Dark Sanctuary, the prophecy has a logical flow, starting at the beginning and progressing through the entries. In the Second Sanctuary, the prophecy's order is messed up (as made clear by the list of heroes starting with the third hero, going to the first hero, to the girl and then ending at the second hero). Since the dark world is still based on the church, the presence of the prophecy is expected. But why is it jumbled? It's because Susie is an outsider. She's never been to church, and has no idea what it's supposed to be like. She doesn't know the prophecy and she has no idea what order it should be in. The content is here, but the context is missing.
There is a very straightforward explanation to this: Every dark world is different, and dark worlds reflect their creator. Susie's dark world being "off" fits in with her being an outsider. Her dark world being so "off" tells us a lot about how dark worlds work, but I haven't seen many people apply these lessons to other dark worlds. In particular, I think that if Susie's church dark world is strange because she is an outsider to it, it follows that whoever made the Dark Sanctuary has to be much more familiar with the church. This point is further driven home by the darkners found in each dark world.
In the Dark Sanctuary, we come across darkners that have been turned to stone from the start. Why this happens is never really explained, but from what we learned in previous chapters we know that darkners that have no ties to the location turn to stone. This is peculiar, because all the darkners fit within this dark world thematically and seem like they belong here. There is actually only one darkner that appears in both dark worlds: the fire extinguisher, which explains why it calls itself the most important darkner. The rest can however be divided into two distinct themes when we look at them separately.
Dark Sanctuary includes the following darkners: Guei (prayer candles), Wafer (communion wafers), Bibliox (books, but religious ones specifically as implied by the single bibliox in TV world owned by Toriel), Mizzle and Miss Mizzle (water, Mizzle being regular water from the water coolers, and Miss Mizzle possibly being holy water from the font), Balthizard (incense holder), Cuptains (obviously the cups used for punch), Jackenstein (a halloween costume - I think the most peculiar darkner on this list…) and lastly the hidden Tao NPC (a metronome).
Second Sanctuary includes Organikk (church organs), Wicabel (church bells), and Winglade (quill pens). The darkners found in one dark world are excluded from the other, mirroring each other perfectly. The divide between these darkners may seem random at first, but looking at it more closely, there is a pattern. All the items found in Dark Sanctuary are general functional items used in church sermons. Strikingly, they exclude all the creative objects found in the church (the organikk and wicabel being musical instruments, and winglade being a pen - we can argue that Tao being a metronome is also musical, but it's not an instrument and serves a functional rather than creative role). This divide in darkners is interesting, and definitely intentional.
Since we've established Susie doesn't know much about church and this colours her dark world version of it, these specific darkners must have a more special meaning to her. The musical instruments are easily guessed. Just before opening this fountain Susie recounts an experience expressing interest in playing the piano, a dream that was crushed by her peers. She clearly has an interest in music, and so the musical part of the church is what stuck with her most. The pen is curious, but given the events in the Dark Sanctuary, it's easy to see why the pen is important to her. It represents Gerson's lesson to her. Beyond this, the darkners themselves are also themed after things that oppose religion. The wicabels are referred to as witches, the winglades speak about revolution, and the organikks call themselves philosophers. All three of these represent threats to the church's influence and status quo, being archetypes that forge their own paths.
With this in mind, the darkners in the Dark Sanctuary must have a special meaning to their creator as well. If we look at them together, they follow a single theme, similar to Susie’s darkners. All the Dark Sanctuary darkners are things needed to run the church service. It’s peculiar however, that this dark world excludes all the musical instruments and creative tools. Whoever made this world has less of a connection to them, and probably sees them as less valuable. The other differences also allude to the creator’s identity. The Dark Sanctuary is logical and ordered, while the Second Sanctuary is chaotic and creative. But most importantly, the resurrection of Gerson in the Dark Sanctuary is a hugely important clue to the identity of its creator.
When Susie tries to resurrect Gerson in her own dark world, it backfires. Ralsei explains, saying "Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one only tend to appear in very specific darknesses.". This paints a picture, but isn't actually very clear. What is clear is that while Susie couldn't revive Gerson, someone else could. To me, the most obvious difference would be that Susie is new to Hometown, and has never met Gerson in the light world. Because of this, she could not revive him in her dark world. However, someone who did know him might be able to.
I know what you're thinking. "That's all well and good, but this doesn't explain why the Knight couldn't have made both the first and last dark worlds..." . Since we don't know the identity of the Knight, their connections to the church are also ambiguous. I don't really want to go into the popular knight candidates here, but I may have to. What stands out to me though, is that none of them seem particularly connected to the church to explain the differences between the first and second dark worlds. Moreover, to explore why I think the first and third dark worlds were made by different people we first have to explore the Third Sanctuary.
As the heroes enter the main dark world in the church, things seem normal again. Ralsei says "I suppose the original dark world was formed partially of the fountain inside there, too.", which implies that the first and third sanctuaries are similar. This makes sense for the entrance and when you backtrack, (although there are subtle differences even here) but this falls apart when you actually set foot in the new area of the Third Sanctuary and see that this dark world is nothing like the first. If anything it's a lot more like Susie's!
This dark world is very short, and most of the information is overshadowed by the appearance of the Titan at the end, but we can still learn some things about the creator. For this one, I do think it was created by the knight. The connection to the church is all but gone, just as we saw with Susie's dark world. The terrain is just as twisted, the prophecy is jumbled, and the puzzles are inverted again. What's notable is that all the darkners are present in this world.
The discrepancy between the first and third sanctuaries is so glaring it's hard to ignore. The Third Sanctuary opens with a remix of the Second Sanctuary BGM, but somehow this version seems more complete. The prophecy panels are back, but now it's just the pictures, and a whole bunch of them. It's also not all of them but only a specific subset: Delta Rune/Angel, Titan, Knight, Three Heroes (together and separate), Hammer, Tail of hell, Ring of Heaven. They feature only the most impactful figures in the prophecy as is to be expected with the creator being the Knight.
Whether Ralsei is speaking the truth or not (and we established he is unreliable just moments before entering the Third Sanctuary), it's weird that the Dark Sanctuary and Third Sanctuary are so different. Ralsei's comment could be partially true, but I would rather say the Third Sanctuary (namely the part we've already seen in the Dark Sanctuary) is partially formed of the Dark Sanctuary, not the other way around.
I know I said I wouldn't get too much into the Knight's identity in this theory, but I guess I have no way around it now. To preface this next part, I'm a DessKnight believer (sorry Rory and Papyrus truthers...) and will try to explain how DessKnight ties this whole theory together. It's no coincidence the Knight's and Susie's dark worlds are so similar. From the little information we have about Dess, it seems she was about as much of a rebel as Susie is. It's also implied she was a bit of a loner or outsider, as nobody in hometown even mentions her, not even her previous classmates. It explains why the more rebellious darkners are present in her dark world, and why the dark world itself such a diversion from the standard template.
The fact that the more traditional darkners are also present also makes sense. Dess, unlike Susie, has probably been to church many times with her family. She is familiar with the prophecy and church service, and this makes her less of an outsider than Susie, who has no idea of how it should be. Part of the dark world is normal, and this could largely be due to her connection to the church. As stated before, Gerson is able to resurrect in the Third Sanctuary. Because we don't know the Knight's identity, it makes it hard to speculate why, but if we assume the Knight is Dess, it begins making sense. The old classroom, which houses the Card Kingdom dark world, used to be Gerson's classroom. Gerson didn't teach Kris and Noelle because of his age, but it's heavily implied that Gerson taught Dess and Asriel when they were young. Gerson also hints to this and the connection between Susie and Dess, stating Susie reminds him of someone he once knew (particularly the "Dragon" in his story, who may or may not be based on Dess). If Dess had a similar relationship to Gerson as Susie builds, it stands to reason that she could resurrect him in the dark world.
Who is the creator of the Dark Sanctuary?
Let’s look over the clues we have gathered:
The Dark Sanctuary fountain is notably very small. In chapter 2, it was revealed fountains are made by thrusting one’s determination into the earth. It stands to reason that whoever created this world does not have as much determination as the Knight and Susie. Either this person is not determined in general, or the creation of the fountain was just a practical means to an end and this is reflected in the fountain.
The layout of the Dark Sanctuary lines up with someone familiar with the church.
The order of the prophecy panels implies this person is familiar with the prophecy.
The darkners present are only practical objects used in church services, and exclude those that are more creative. The darkners themselves are also more concerned with tradition and the status quo than those found in the Second Sanctuary. The creator is a more practical person who is less concerned with being creative.
The creator was able to resurrect Gerson, hinting that they had a personal relationship with him unlike Susie, who was not able to resurrect him.
The only thing we don’t have a clear answer for is the motive. Why would someone other than the Knight open dark fountains? We’ve seen Kris do this, and we also know Kris is involved with Carol’s plot. So, the creator of this Dark World must also be involved in Carol’s plot. After talking to some people, I have two candidates: Alvin Boom and Carol Holiday herself.
Alvin Boom would be my first guess. The fountain is smaller because Gerson is not a particularly determined person. Dark Sanctuary has a logical ordered layout because Alvin is familiar with the church. The prophecy is in the expected order because Alvin knows it by heart. This world has both the content and the context and so it has a logical structure. The objects that turn into darkners are also familiar to Alvin, who uses them on a daily basis. Why then, does his dark world exclude the musical instruments and the pen? Alvin has lived in the shadow of his father's legacy all his life. There is a notable divide between father and son, evidenced by Gerson's letter to Alvin and Alvin asking Gerson if he was proud of him at his grave. Alvin was never able to achieve Gerson's level of creativity, and this is reflected in his dark world, where he has excluded any creative objects, favouring only the practical ones. This also reflects back on his lack of Determination. Even the presence of Gerson makes sense. It is implied that Alvin is the one who dug up Gerson's grave and put his hammer in his office, but it's not super clear why.
Come to think of it, the main reason this theory is lacking is because of the lack of motive. Maybe Alvin only dug up Gerson’s remains because of his obsession of wanting to be more like his father and it has nothing to do with the dark world. But if only people who are deeply familiar with a lightner can resurrect them as a darkner, it becomes more plausible Gerson being in this Dark World is more intentional. It’s already plausible he's involved with Carol's plans because he tells Kris not to go near the bunker, the church having a code on the bunker, and the convenient placement of Gerson's remains in the dark world fits into this as well. Interestingly, Gerson’s possession of a shadow crystal also points to him being there for a reason and not just coincidentally. Gerson was supposed to become Freedom-obsessed due to the shadow crystal, but this plan did not work out in the end.
Carol Holiday. Not my first guess, but after discussing my theory many others also point to her as creating the fountain. This one hinges mostly on her central involvement in the creation of other fountains, and her stating on the phone that the Church will have a fountain tonight. She is clearly involved, and could definitely be the one to create it. She has the motive, but with our clues there’s a bit more uncertainty to me. The fountain being smaller strikes me as odd, since Carol is very determined. Ice cold and practical in her means to achieve her goals, having a small fountain seems off. However, it’s pointed out to me that the fountain could be small due to her having less of a connection to the church, since she does not attend service (any more?). The next parts are logical enough. Carol has probably been to church, as her whole family goes, and while we haven’t seen her there, she probably knows the layout and is familiar with church in general. She also very probably has an idea about the prophecy seeing as she’s actively working with the Knight in creating dark fountains. The darkners also work, since she is a practical person, cares about rules and order, and does not seem to be a very artistic or creative person. The only really glaring part is Gerson’s resurrection. Nowhere in the game up to now have we gotten any indication of a connection between Gerson and Carol. She probably knew him, since he taught her daughter in school and she’s the mayor, but that’s the only connection we have.
Alvin obviously has the most easy access to the church, and could have made the fountain anytime. Carol also could have made the fountain on her way to the Holiday home. The last thing that strikes me as odd, is that Alvin is nowhere to be found. As the priest of the church, he probably lives in or near the church itself, and I think he would have noticed the dark world in the church if he was not aware of it. To me, his absence also points to his involvement with the Carol plot.
My personal belief is that Alvin is working with Carol for some reason, and he was instructed to create a dark fountain in the church by her. To slow down the Heroes, to resurrect Gerson, or for another reason altogether is not really clear, but to me this theory points in this direction. I’m not sure if we will ever get a definitive answer, but I hope the next chapter gives us at least some more clues as to who is involved with Carol.
All of this makes me think of the broader implications. The whole three part structure of chapter 4 and its dark worlds reminds me of a sort of Dialectic exercise. The Dark Sanctuary represents the Thesis, the original idea of the prophecy being unchanging. The Second Sanctuary then logically is the Antithesis, fuelled by rebellion and revolutionary struggle against the prophecy. This makes the Third Sanctuary the Synthesis, a sort of middle point where both sides come together. Toby Fox famously has said that the ending of the game will be the same regardless of what the player does. This has fuelled theories about the prophecy being immutable, but I think it doesn't have to be that way at all. The only thing immutable is our impact on the narrative. I think in the end, we will reach a sort of Synthesis where yes, parts of the prophecy do come true, but the characters in the story also can enact significant change on the outcome.
If the dark worlds are so easily influenced by their creator, this has a lot of implications on the creators of other dark worlds. This post is already long enough, but I want to end on this note: the only confirmed dark fountain creators (as in, ones we have seen being made) are Kris and Susie, with TV world and Second Sanctuary being made by them respectively. This means any other dark world could be made by anyone. King has never even met the Knight, and Queen similarly had no idea of the Knight's plans or the consequences of making too many fountains. I'm not saying I don't think the Knight made Card Kingdom and Cyber World, but it's fun to think about character connections and why dark worlds look the way they do.
i love susies treatment towards the darkners, shes so sweet with them and it makes me happy. however i do think her thinking of the dark worlds as the "better" worlds is an extremely concerning and dangerous mindset. she hasnt healthily grown out of that more than shes had it beat out of her, with the dark worlds being such a terrifying, life threatening world threatening thing now. she hasnt learnt to love her life and the "real world" as much as she should, shes just had her comfort zone ruined for her.
the progression of susies DW thoughts are something like this: “i mean obviously its not real. me? some kind of hero? no way. its not real so i can do what i want and thrash who i want!” she viewed it as like her own playpen to get out all her pent up anger without feeling any regret at all. because its not real. right? making friends, being a hero, it already seems fake
"woah, not only is this place completely real (half denial) its so much better. where i can eat whatever i want to and go on crazy adventures when i want. its a shame i have to go back home when it ends. whoevers making all these dark worlds, they cant be that bad."
Interesting detail about Chapter 1 and 2's secret bosses; to challenge them, you have to travel downwards. That is to say, deeper into the darkness, and closer to the fabled Dark Sea from which the dark fountains are theorised to originate from.
And isn't it interesting how, when fighting against both Jevil and Spamton NEO, the backgrounds become surreal thematic extensions of their respective characters? The nightmarish pseudo-3D carousel of Jevil's cell, and the equally-nightmarish cityscape infested with Spamton's likeness? Isn't it interesting that any sense of cohesive reality starts to break down during these encounters, as if you're on the cusp between dreaming and waking?
And isn't it interesting that the recurring theme of these nightmarish experiences is the desire for freedom above all else - as if we are seeing Kris's deepest, darkest fears made manifest and reflected back at them, at what might be considered to be the closest point between the edge of reality and a realm of pure dreams?
