I already blew off steam and ranted plenty after watching it, and to summarise..
This is Derision levels of hypocrisy - being an abuse victim is no excuse for bullying, but stalking and obsessiveness are excused by trauma; refusing to let go and move one from your old enemies is petty and a sign of a weak, angry person, but the shows creator can dedicate at least one episode per shows season, to shit on his least favourite character and target a fanbase surrounding her FOR YEARS after her character assassination in canon
I liked Sabrina confronting her abuser and moving on, but it had to be ruined by Marinettes edgy aah laughter and corny zingers in response - you’re NOT taugh, lil bro😭✌️
You could physically see the writing quality taking a deep for this particular episode, which happens every time Thomas pushes his own agenda no matter what
This is JUST a season 5 Chloe ark rehash - this episode serves NO PURPOSE outside those few Lila and Noe involving scenes
Im not even that huge of a fan of Chloe, but this pettiness makes me want to be one with intensity out of pure spite. You’ll never make me hate her, Astruc - how about you touch some grass instead of arguing with your fanbase on Twitter 24/7
"The series were never created to talk about concept of Yin-Yang" Darn it! Then what is this show about?!!
He replied to me and called me stupid when I took that screenshot and said that him saying "the 'reveal' is self-convinced" means the reveal isn't happening. Is that not what you're saying? Is it not at least worrying that you're implying you consider that plot point to be equivalent, in some sense, to Chloe getting redeemed?
I'm quite surprised that his autoblock hasn't caught me yet, actually.
Apparently, the show can't have any meaningful representation beyond Kungfu Pixies from a Magical Exotic Land (speaking of- why is it that we have so many surface level references to fake kungfu offshoots but not an episode about martial arts??? that's so gross to me) because... they put it all in the other show that you can't see, oops! 💔 Oh no!
In a vacuum I could maybe, almost accept them just using Yin-Yang as a visual shorthand that means nothing beyond demonstrating Ladynoir's existence as a pair of compliments. But their partnership isn't equal by any means, especially not now, and then the show can't pretend to be deep and meaningful or even worthwhile representation if it rips off Taoist* elements for little more than as a "graphic tool".
*Taoism in itself encompasses a wide range of beliefs and practices, mostly because it exists as a category to separate those beliefs from Confucianism, Buddhism, etc. If Thomas was smart (not benevolent, mind you, but smart), he could have warped its loose definition to use as an excuse and shut down a lot of people with even the notion that he knows more about Chinese religion practices than the average mltwt member, even if he didn't. It would have excused nothing and the show would still be orientalist, but he would have given his defenders another thought-terminating cliché for their toolbelts. All this to say–This proves to me that he's not that informed on any of the cultures he wants to represent, and also that he's just horribly unsavvy when it comes to Twitter shitstorms.
...Hey, wait, if one initial post was all it took for him to chime in the other day, how come he was radio silent after Grendiaper? Hmm...
"You know Amy, anytime someone says people "can't handle" a complex female character in a franchise that has multiple female characters who are far more neglected by the narrative in comparison, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that only certain women matter and not the female population as a whole."
I saw people called Lila being more evil than Gabe bcs she akumatize Gina while she grieves for Roland's impending death, as if Gabe wouldn't have done the exact same thing. The same guy who instantly physically assaulted his own son when he learned he's Chat Noir, no guilt.
Gabe would do that 100% any time of the week, while sipping champagne from a bowl. He would make an even worse pun out of it and post it on his side blog. The writers just don't find anyone worth that kind of evil other than Marinette.
Whenever anyone tries to defend Chloe's botched redemption arc by saying "you thought she was ml's Zuko, but she's actually Azula," I just know for a fact that they have the shallowest understanding of Zuko and Azula as characters.
The difference between whether a character flaw or plot point should be turned into an arc vs. just cut entirely lies in how that meshes with the rest of the character it relates to, as well as the story it's in as a whole.
For example, Adrien continuing to chase Ladybug despite being rejected over and over is something that definitely should be an arc. His core character flaw is his excessive optimism. He keeps hoping that things will change, and that results in not knowing how to let a relationship end, or when to stop pursuing a goal. This, combined with his power of destruction, lends itself perfectly well to an arc about how sometimes it's healthy to let things die, despite the pain it causes in the moment. It's for the same reason that I roll my eyes whenever people say Adrien facing Gabriel would've been too painful for him. The fact that it's painful and bittersweet is the whole point.
On the flipside, the sentinonsense and the Big Lie are two things that should just be cut. Between Adrien being restricted by his father and his power of destruction, the set-up is about Adrien escaping from the restrictions in his life. Being a sentimonster takes those restrictions and makes them inescapable. Adrien will forever be vulnerable to having his free will hijacked, and that just doesn't jive, narratively. Sure, you could have a moment where Adrien severs the bond between himself and his amok, but at that point it's like he was never a sentimonster to begin with, so why bother? It doesn't add anything to Adrien's character; it's a shocking twist for the sake of having a shocking twist.
Same with the Big Lie. For Adrien, the most narratively coherent moment to confront everything his father has done to him would have been the S5 finale. Moments like him destroying Gabriel's statue or yelling at an akuma with his father's face ring hollow, because, like. Gabriel's dead. There are no stakes anymore. Adrien doesn't risk anything and doesn't have anything to lose. Learning that sometimes it's healthy to let something end doesn't work if that something already ended. It's the storytelling equivalent of "You can't fire me, I quit!"
As for Marinette, remember how I said that the set-up for Adrien's story is about destroying the restrictions in his life a couple of paragraphs ago? Well, now Marinette is the one restricting Adrien by lying to him and telling him what he's supposed to think. Symbolically, Marinette's role in Adrien's story is about creating (natch) a new, healthier future after the old, unhealthy status quo has been destroyed. This puts her fundamentally at odds with Gabriel. They pretty much have to be polar opposites for this to work. Instead, nor only are they very similar, but Marinette has now taken over Gabriel's old role as Adrien's villain. Why the fuck would you do that to your main character and romantic lead?!
So I just watched a video analysis about how to write a lovable jerk, y’know, as you do, and as the person broke down the different components of how this archetype is created, it grew more apparent to me how Astruc accidentally created this type of character in Chloe, and how the story decisions with her in seasons four and five actually only exacerbated this unintentional portrayal of her character (and maybe even potentially why many people find Marinette so difficult to like or even tolerate). Let me explain through the criteria given in this video!
credit to squampopulous for the analysis video
Step 1: Distance
The first step listed is the idea of creating distance between the character and the audience, pretty much the opposite of what you would do with an empathetic or relatable character. This often means the character moves so far from what the audience would expect from the real world, whether it be logic or morality, to make the jerkiness as absurd and over-the-top as possible that the audience ends up amused rather than disgusted. This is a large part how villains like Disney’s Hades or Dreamworks’ Big Jack Horner become so entertaining, or why audiences become so enthralled by Kuzco. This is something Chloe has done since her very first episode! The ways she bullies and hurts the characters in the show are so far removed from how actual bullies and privileged rich kids work that no one can (or at least, no one should) take her seriously!
In fact, on a side note, I can see this is how Marinette has become so unlikable for many people! Aside from the fact that she is intended to be a protagonist, which inherently closes at least some distance, she is also meant to be empathized with, which puts the audience in close proximity to her as a character! If you’re the type of person to relate to her struggles and insecurities, then this close proximity works perfectly, but if an audience member doesn’t have such a quality, it all falls apart! This is a major factor in why viewers might be harsher with her actions than characters like Chloe or Lila: because we have closer distance, we grow higher standards for her!
Another disadvantage Marinette has to Chloe in this category is when her actions reach familiarity. While most of Chloe’s actions feel far too absurd to ever occur in any real scenario, such as becoming a dictator mayor as a teenager, many of the actions of Marinette’s get uncomfortably close to immoralities we see in life, such as sabotaging your crush’s other love interests for the sole purpose of becoming that person’s only option. And to make matters worse, the recent seasons have continued to draw more attention to these actions rather than exaggerating them, as seen in episodes like Derision or Sublimation! By narrowing the distance between us and our protagonist’s actions in how familiar we are with such immoralities in the real world, it gives significantly less leeway for suspension of disbelief! So it’s not hypocrisy that leads to more permissible parameters for Chloe than Marinette, it’s just the basic rules of storytelling.
Step 2: Authenticity
The second step mentioned is this idea of the lovable jerk shamelessly owning up to their jerk actions and in fact pushing forward on their behaviors and actions! This was demonstrated in the video by comparing the storyboard version of Woody throwing Buzz out the window versus how Kuzco got the old man thrown out his window. While storyboard!Woody tried to deny his actions which in turn horrified the executives the scene was pitched to, Kuzco’s refusal to back down or deny his actions made his scene much more comedic to watch! This is yet another aspect Chloe nails perfectly! Even when she tries to pretend she already got Adrien a birthday present in the Bubbler, the fact that she used an annoyance for workers struggling to carry it adds a level of shameless jerkiness that turns into amusement rather than appall for the audience, not all that different from how the video described Kuzco’s sincerity about his insincerity when he lied to Pacha.
This is also another aspect that demonstrates how Marinette fails as a dubious protagonist! Because the characters and herself are so in denial of her having any potential to be a bad person, this makes any and every bad action she performs stick out like a sore thumb! So every time Astruc or a Maripologist spews another excuse or justification for this character, it only makes those who notice the corruptness of her actions more bitter and horrified!
Step 3: Time Limit
Technically, this step doesn’t really apply for Miraculous Ladybug, or at least it shouldn’t. The fact that this show is written to be pretty much never ending means that we shouldn’t really have expectations for any limited time with this show. Furthermore, considering how the first season or so of this show was written to be comedic and episodic, no time limit should be established. Take Candace from Phineas and Ferb as an example. Although she does get small moments of development throughout the show, and she does acknowledge the passage of time and repetition in the episodic formula, she never really moves beyond her role as the control freak sister who wants to bust her brothers, and the audience loves her for it!
So, if this show was indeed written to be an episodic cartoon with wacky hijinxes and silly kids lessons, then characters like Chloe or Marinette would not be characters we expect to develop beyond the roles they were placed in from the very first episode! Marinette would be the insecure yet well meaning protagonist who learns a life lesson each episode, and Chloe would be the jerk bully/rival who exists for the sole purpose of antagonizing our protagonist and getting in the way of her goals!
Unfortunately, this is not what the show decided to do! Because they made the mistake of having Chloe want to be a superhero and even idolize Ladybug. This was the aspect that ultimately determined whether she was perceived as a Jack Horner or a Kuzco. Let me explain. If they truly wanted us to believe Chloe was a villainous character with no capacity for good or heroism, the writers could have portrayed her as skewing her perception of Ladybug to align more with her predeterminate selfish and bratty ideals, or have her be motivated to be a hero for the sole purpose of fame or attention!
Instead, from the moment they introduce her being a fan of Ladybug, they make it clear that she admires Ladybug’s heroism! And because she is established as a sincere and shameless character, with the plot never giving sufficient evidence to the contrary, this intrigues the audience into believing there is more to her! Not to mention, in the two-parter of Queen’s Battle, instead of going the Jack Horner route of leaning further into Chloe’s jerkiness and literally any selfish motives she might have, the story instead portrayed Chloe’s primary motivation and driving force behind her actions as approval, whether it be from her mother or Ladybug! This was only made worse in Maledictator by conveying her genuine insecurity of being useless. And these qualities continued to persist throughout the rest of Season 2 and the entirety of Season 3 every time she brought Queen Bee up. By giving her a deeper and less jerk-like motivation, coupled by moments of sincere selflessness, this gave the audience the impression that she had a genuine capacity for change. So when the Miracle Queen finale and seasons after tried to back out and insist she is just evil, it’s far too late. The audience already saw her vulnerability and sincerity, and the writers didn’t take the proper steps to portray or reveal her as insincere for these moments!
Now let’s look at Marinette. Instead of preserving her initial role as the flawed yet well meaning protagonist, or portraying any growth into a righteous and upstanding hero, the episodes and plot progression shows her choosing her own self interests over others time and time again! How are we supposed to see Miracle Queen as a testament to Chloe’s irredeemability when the very thing that catalyzed this event was Marinette’s desire to get in between Adrien and Kagami’s romance, while Chloe was motivated by saving her parents? By repeatedly portraying Marinette in self serving ways that get rewarded, this leads to her jerkiness outweighing any likability she might have had in her first episode!
And that’s it for this analysis! I dunno if this is actually any good, and if you disagree with anything I said, that’s perfectly valid! You are not a terrible person if you do relate to Marinette, or you genuinely despise Chloe with every fiber of your being! This analysis was made with the sole purpose of examining fiction through the general parameters of storytelling that are used to influence the audience’s perception of said characters. But hey, if anything I referenced or talked about does interest you, you can watch the original video below! It most certainly explains these elements of a lovable jerk far better than I could ever attempt to! If you did in fact read through this longass post word for word, thank you so much for sparing me so much of your time in your average scrolling and skimming of posts, I appreciate it! Have a fantastic day!
..the audacity for Marinette to give Adrien this look.
When all three of them refuse to tell him just how important the rings are..despite it being relevant to him too..
Also Felixs done the same damn thing..which is why Adrien did it..cuz he thought he was bonding with his cousin.
But. No. We dont wanna tell Adrien anything cuz its better to coddle him than treat him normally..even though he has the same issues as Kagami and Felix..OKAY!
