i really dont like cream because i think it literally messes up cross’ entire development as a character and would not be healthy for him. i am so sorry cream loving mutuals but this is on the MIND. a lot of cream neg ranting below cut
i just. primarily don’t like cream because cross always falls under power imbalances. he needs an equal in his life rather than someone he will deem as above him, someone whose aura canonically directly affects him and influences how he feels about dream. he would canonically struggle to dislike dream despite how he wants to because dream’s aura literally shoves comfort down his throat, even if dream doesn’t intend that. there is an old comic about exactly that. dream’s aura is not what ‘made’ cross love him, but it would influence how cross feels about him and would urge him to stay if he ever wanted to leave.
but honestly the thing that drives me crazy the most is how in SO MANY (as in, like, most nowadays) interpretations dream is shown as cross’ knight in shining armor, his angel, his savior. someone cross reveres. dream is his ethereal lover and cross is someone who cannot compare, in his mind.
but what cross needs is an equal, and characters like dream (or nightmare) have such a big power imbalance between them and him. dream is the guardian of positivity, he will outlive cross for likely hundreds of years and cross is aware of this, and the mindset that he’s only a temporary lover would mess him up a bit too. and again i really really hate seeing cross reduced to dream’s anything. dream’s soldier, especially dream’s dog (note that i love dogboy cross but combined with the power imbalance and how cross often is shown to view dream as someone above him it feels yucky to have cross be dream’s dog)
cross’ entire story is about him becoming his own separate person! being with equals and not surrendering to those with more power over him and instead fighting back!! this is also why i like ships like crepic and kross and recently whatever color x cross is called a lot better. because they’re equals to him. and he sees them as equals, too.
cream is. fine to ship. its just not my thing. crossmare also isnt because of the same reason. in a bad sanses setting he would view nightmare as his superior, hell, he even calls nightmare ‘boss’ in these kinds of settings a lot of the time when with a romantic relationship established between them. nightmare owns him. even in a fanon setting where nightmare doesn’t beat the shit out of everyone, nightmare still holds cross’ life in his hands. cross has nothing in return.
in aus where nightmare and dream are made to be equals (such as modern aus) i can see ships with them! the pet peeve isn’t as present. still don’t like cream thoguh im sorry as a cross obsessor it’s just not something i think he would be healthy in,, he’s gotta have an equal not someone he views as above him which he always will because that’s how he was raised and trained to be his whole life.
him fighting to be free from that cycle only to just fall back in the position of being under someone again, REGARDLESS of how comforting or good they make him feel while he is, isn’t healthy for him. they can be excused as fine because dream is loving and kind to him and cross is very receptive to it, and it does help him with some things, but cross can’t handle constantly being around that. i hate that this is always ignored. i hate that cross being reduced to something someone owns, dream’s dog, Dream’s soldier, Dream’s, is just constantly a thing that people are totally chill with. no matter how much Dream could insist they’re equal, Dream isn’t, case closed. he is immortal and cross isn’t. if Dream lives for thousands of years there’s a likely chance he’ll enter another relationship a while after cross dies. cross would be aware of this. cross would be aware that the multiverse reveres dream and would feel a duty to feel the same. dream is a guardian, and cross can’t even fully free himself from his father’s control.
idk i just think cross should not be in relationships with people who have power over him, at least not as much as dream/nm do. it makes me sad because i like cross a lot and him being in relationships with people above him, no matter how nice they are or how reassuring they are, is not something he would ever be able to healthily handle or accept. he was raised to have an inferiority complex about himself and he will continue to have that unless he is surrounded by equals who support him in fixing that and don’t fuel it, even without wanting to.
but honestly tho overall ship what u like. hell if i care these guys ain’t real. u do u man. plus a lot of cream art is cute. it’s just a pet peeve of mine :’)
I understand the importance of diversity. However, I only support it if it's good diversity. I for the life of me cannot understand why Chaggie fans like that ship outside of it being Sapphic. They have no chemistry and the writers and Viv, the damn creator don't give a damn about their relationship. They get no romantic moments together, they're unhealthily co dependent on each other. Vaggie, a bit more than Charlie and they're the most forced canon ship I've seen aside from the canon Harry Potter ships. I don't ship them at all but it's very disappointing seeing how their relationship has been written. The biggest issue to me is that it's obvious Viv doesn't care about lesbian relationships. She's too busy fetizishing MM ones. How else do you explain all the attention and writing going to the guys interacting and not the canon wlw ship? Why have we seen several explicit gay sex scenes but Chaggie got an implied fade to black one. Viv has some kinda hangups about lesbian ships, which is weird because according to her, she's bisexual, so this shouldn't be a problem. Not enough Chaggie fans are calling her out for her obvious bias for yaoi ships and terrible job of portraying a lesbian romance. Nobody told Viv to make them canon, she made that decision and for 2 seasons now have given them nothing. I'm honestly surprised they're the #1 couple for HH fanfiction. Firstly, because I was shocked radioapple wasn't #1(they're #2) and secondly because they give nothing. Chaggie is the definition of bland wonder bread. Again, diversity is very important and needed but only if it's done right. Shipping Chaggie just because it's queer and canon is not a good enough reason to support it. Especially when it's so badly written and once again lacking chemistry. I refuse to believe the fans are actually happy with the miniscule crumbs they've been given. Especially for a canon ship!
I really do feel like I need to be as delicate as possible in answering this even though I'm probably going to be crucified anyways. However, I can understand the underlying appeal of chaggie if it was given to me as a sales pitch. But also, I understand the appeal of it because Cassunzel did it first and did it better and it didn't even end up being canon. And I think I am going to use them as a point of comparison here so spoiler warning I guess for Tangled the Series/Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure. Strap in, this is gonna be a long one.
Tangled the series takes place within the... I wanna say 3ish year time skip between Tangled and Tangled every after. It follows Rapunzel, Flynn, and a small cast of new characters taking on a new magical threat and having misadventures along the way.
The first time we meet Cassandra, or Cass, is as Rapunzel's Lady-In-Waiting. More accurately though, she's kind of like Rapunzel's nanny/best friend combo. She looks after Rapunzel, gives her advice about how to act within a royal court situation, and tries her best to help keep the princess in check. This is at slightly hilarious odds with her upbringing, she's the adoptive daughter of the Captain of the Guard. So naturally she hates Flynn.
Anyways, the point of the movie pilot is to set up the overarching plot, which has to do with these black rocks that started sprouting at the spot where the Sundrop flower had grown. Upon interacting with them Rapunzel's hair grows back instantly. Except, it's not entirely the same (I really recommend watching/reading the wiki for this series as it's one of Disney's better ones). Anyways, the plot is about dealing with these black rocks, and eventually following them where they lead. Along the way they make many friends and allies, but the core traveling party is Rapunzel, Flynn, Cassandra, and Lance Strongbow (ironically voiced by James Monroe Ingleheart aka Ozzie/Zestial).
Over the course of this journey they learn that the connection between Rapunzel and the black rocks is that the rocks are the manifestation of the Moonstone Opal, another item of great power that descended from the heavens at the same time as the sundrop, though quite a distance away. The rocks are the Moonstone's attempt at reconnecting with the Sundrop as they are meant to be one total entity. As they travel though, there are several instances where the dynamic between Rapunzel (or Raps, as Cass calls her) and Cassandra feels... deep, meaningful. Coded, even.
For comparison, here's how she's animated interacting with her canon/endgame love interest Flynn/Eugene:
Notice any similarities?
Well, anyways; after a long, winding journey the traveling party finally makes it to the Dark Kingdom (Spoiler, Eugene's home kingdom. That's right, he's actually a prince and his father is still alive) where the Moonstone resides. In the meantime, Eugene has received a prophecy: one of the major figures associated with this entire conflict has been a demon known as Zhan Tiri, one of the only people ever known to have defeated this demon was an inventor and engineer known as Lord Demanitus who was also the founding architect of the Kingdom of Corona thousands of years prior. While in the body of a monkey (it makes sense in context) he gives Eugene a slip of paper with this prediction: that one of Rapunzel's closest people will betray her.
This is honestly a very clever bit of writing as Cass has been shown to have some dissatisfaction with how Rapunzel doesn't listen to her at times, and how it feels like despite all her hopes and dreams she is continually playing second fiddle to Rapunzel. So we end that episode assuming it will be Cass. And then Eugene begins barring Rapunzel from the castle because he is trying to protect her from the same fate he learns his mother endured. Thereby, betraying her. When he realizes this, he stops fighting, he goes with her. And then? This happens:
Yep, Cassandra betrays Rapunzel. But why? Well we don't have to wait too long to find out. Cassandra is gothel's daughter, like her actual bio daughter. And Gothel abandoned her to keep Rapunzel, which is when the captain of the guard takes her in and raises her as his own. So yes, Cassandra blames Rapunzel for it, it's not logical but it's an emotional thing wrapped in the trauma from being abandoned coupled with the feelings of resentment Cass starts harboring over Rapunzel constantly not listening to her and her being passed over for things. They have a whole breakup song about it, ending with "And for us, if we're over that's fine"
Subtlety, thy name is not a single one of the writers for this show. The rest of the final season deals with this continuing clash between Rapunzel and Cassandra. Working in the shadows is Zhan Tiri manipulating Cassandra, but merely galvanizing those feelings of resentment Cass already has. Zhan Tiri is clever, and never actually outright lies to Cass. Overarching big bad aside, Cassandra seeks to gain control over the moonstone she's fused to her body, and seeks out Varian; an alchemist and engineer and former antagonist in his own right as he's been studying the works of Demanitus to try and decipher the incantations. She kidnaps him and they have this beautiful duet
(Yes that's Jeremy Jordan, and yes this duet right here is the reason a ton of Hazbin fans want Eden Espinoza to voice Lilith the chemistry is too good)
Part of what makes Cassandra an effective antagonist is that she genuinely doesn't believe she's a villain. All she believes she's doing is taking back what was stolen from her. And if she can't take back her mother? She'll take Rapunzel's destiny instead. Except she doesn't, because she's already lost. Zhan Tiri has been pulling the strings this whole time. Cassandra and Rapunzel make up to take down Zhan Tiri and save Corona, but it comes at a cost. Cassandra is... hurt. That is naturally an understatement.
Now tell me if the following scenes look familiar:
If you guessed that it almost perfectly mirrored the same sequence from the original Tangled film where Rapunzel is crying over Eugene. But they're just besties right? Gal pals even?
Obviously I'm skipping over A LOT of little details here, ostensibly for the sake of brevity but let's be real, this post is a beast as it is and I've barely touched the chaggie aspect of it. But I'll end the Cassunzel thing with one final gif:
As a reminder: this is a Pre-Owl House era Disney show. They aren't even canon, they do not end up romantically together (though Cass, Raps, and Eugene all give major bi4bi4bi energy and polyamory would have been the correct answer). But you know something? I did not need to hear Cassandra OR Rapunzel say they loved each other to believe their relationship was deep and meaningful and I find it very telling the writers saved this "I love you" scene for the very end of the series finale. All it's meant to do is give voice to what the audience already knows.
This is what we mean by show, don't tell. This is what it means to see a sapphic bi4bi or even bi4les (Cassandra could be either but we do see her romantically interested in at least one male in a way that to me doesn't read as comphet so idk). I didn't need a song about Cassandra and Rapunzel having sex to believe it was possible that was a thing they did.
To get to the other part of your ask Nonny, even by the numbers chaggie is not the most popular ship on Hazbin AO3. You cannot simply look at the total number of fics that relationship is tagged in because the data is heavily skewed. I ran the numbers sometime last year; they weren't great and I doubt they improved much since but let's have some fun with numbers.
Allegedly, on AO3 there are 8.3k fics tagged with chaggie as a relationship right? Okay, now let's filter out all fics with the other popular ships in them that Taking out Huskerdust, Radiodust, RA, Lucilith, and even Charlastor we more than halve that number down to approximately 3.7k. Let's also filter out the crossover element from the hellaverse, so no Helluva Boss fics are in the mix. 2.8k fics now. And just to be safe, I doubt there's much gender bending chaggie in fics so let's filter for specifically the F/F category. Now down to a little over 2k fics. And for even further security, because AO3 is an archive and there's been a lot of social media upheaval where people are using it to store commissioned artworks that are nsfw, we should require... let's be generous and say at least 500 words so that context about art pieces doesn't total up and skew the results too much. About 1.7k. Now I'm realizing multi categories fics are still included even when you search specifically for F/F fics, so let's exclude all other fic types except for it. And so, even with a margin for error for some ships that are not chaggie and the main pairing we come to a grand total of... drumroll please:
1,125 fics.
Just over a thousand fics or so that are focused on the canon pairing of one of the main characters of the series. For the sake of fairness I also ran the numbers for charlastor. As a disclaimer, to get anywhere near close to accurate numbers for Charlastor on AO3 had to log in because most of the Charlastor creators I know ended up locking their fics after finding out AO3 had been scraped for AI. With all the same types of filters applied we got to 1,025 total fics. Which, honestly I expect it. It's a straight passing, non-canon ship in one of the gayest shows currently airing. But for chaggie? The canon wlw ship? In a category with over 42 THOUSAND fics (still excluding crossovers here) I think the writers tag them out of duty rather than out of genuine interest.
But Charlastors? Almost all of their stories have them as the central relationship (admittedly, I have one that's a vaggie/emily ship with charlastor tagged but them being a couple is important to the story so I count it) and most of them are long form fics, and remember, there are some that have been deleted that were from the pilot era. Charlastor fics date as far back as 2019. Huskerdust fics date back as far as 2019. I don't think even in the pilot era there were as many chaggie fics as those pairs either. And while I don't think Viv necessarily adds couples for diversity reasons she does by her own admission add things just because she finds them funny. Exhibit A: Blitz's obsession with horses is specifically because Brandon Rogers hates horses. I remember watching those Ashley Nichols streams and hearing Viv admit live that she made chaggie canon because one of the pilot artists showed her ship art they drew of it and she liked it, not -as she now likes to claim- because the chemistry between them was so obvious the storyboarders were animating vaggie into the spot where the Charlie's girlfriend character was supposed to be. And it shows, because you're right. She doesn't care, because aside from doomed yaoi all her best ideas are for the world development.
Huskerdust being a ship that's happening? Pilot era Huskerdust fans. Cherrisnake? Pilot era fans. Vaggie being a fucking former exorcist? I saw that theory floating around long before the show was even picked up and tbh? Makes sense. Original vaggie was a sinner from the 80s and Angel's love interest. Even when her design was changed to be pilot era Vaggie she was still very much a sinner by all accounts and her being an Angel now really feels like a thing they did so that people who were saying that Vaggie would leave her if redemption could be achieved and the only one who would stay is Alastor because he patently doesn't want to change could be proven wrong. And before someone brings up the fact that she wields a spear; the exorcists are shown to leave those things lying around after every extermination they're not exactly difficult to come by.
The "sexy" song? Meant solely to throw a bone to viewers because even the chaggie shippers were upset about how little canon interaction they got in season 1. You know how I know they also don't care about chaggie as a relationship between two equally matched characters and only because it's sapphic? There was infighting between them about who was the worse partner to the other. As in, they know the ship is toxic but because they can't figure out nuance in the slightest it's all one side's fault or the other, never a combination of both.
Hope this long response satisfies your question Nonny!
Small rant about Chaggi, Easy, and it's meta. Part one: the whole "coercion" thing
[Small rant about Chaggi, Easy and it's meta. Part one: the whole "coercion" thing ]
[Photo ID: Screenshot of a bluesky post from user Danidraws, that says: "No way ppl are saying Vaggie coerced Charlie into sex", alongside several crying and skull emojis]
Alright, let's start off taking out main points off the back:.
- Was it intentional? Absolutely not.
- Did Vaggi actually coerce Charlie into having sex (in canon)? No.
- Was it a fumble and massive mistake when it comes to the reading of the scene and the whole context and message that it conveys? Yes, completely. It conveys a flawed message that ends up in the romatization and normalization of emotional neglect, coercion, and toxic positivity in relationships, that the writers refuse to ever take accountability for.
Ok. Fine. At its best, it was really shitty behavior to portray in what's supposed to be a "wholesome" couple.
In my humble opinion, they messed up with how they actually came off in "Easy", and obviously won't admit it. They thought it would be a "tender, nice message" but they didn't have in mind how in their lesbian sex song they literally wrote how one partner is on the edge of a breakdown, trying to express herself, only to get told to shut up several times by her gf, telling her to not spiral and just convinced her to have sex instead because everything would be fine, as if that'd fix anything at all.
Now, Vaggi obviously doesn't tell Charlie to have sex with her in the literal lyrics of Easy. But it doesn't really help their case when she's told her to shut up about two or three times in the song and not let her vent. It's mostly the direction's fault for wanting to make an implied sex scene, whilst not double checking how the lyrics will actually make things seem in the final product or whole context of the song.
Also, the "everything will be ok!" excuse doesn't work, she's still written as if denying Charlie the chance to actually talk about what troubled her in good depth just so it can be ignored again thanks to the optimism. It may not seem all that bad for some, but have in mind that the optimism, paired with the lack of acknowledgement for Charlie's feelings, just does absolutely nothing to help nor address the issue. Optimism and support without actually listening to a partner is pure ignorance that may lead to an issue not getting addressed, the partner not confiding in one another, and just making everything worse. It'd be a type of toxic positivity.
So paired up, it makes it seem as if Vaggi not only refused to let Charlie express her bottled up feelings and stress because it's a "bad thing to spiral", but also did what she believed would be "good for her", (sex and reassurances to "calm down" for some reason?) rather than what was actually good for Charlie. (Emotional closure and a safe space to express her feelings fully) This is a clear flaw on Vaggi's side, and I don't mean to imply that she did out of ego or for her self benefit, because that's not how her character is at all. Still, it doesn't excuse the way the scene came off, it doesn't excuse Vaggi for ignoring her partner's feelings.
One argument that could somewhat "debunk" this whole thing is that, "well, Charlie seemed willing and happy to have sex with Vaggi at that moment!"
Well yes. Vaggi didn't actually coerce Charlie in canon. Ever. It's a big part of what I wanted to explain here, that she canonically doesn't do that. It's just the misconception that a ton of folk have about "messaging and intent of a scene = canonical character intent". Vaggi does not do that ever, it's only that the show itself messed up with the surrounding context that gives off the vibe and whole fandom critique regarding coercion.
But please do have in mind that SH [spindlehorse] wanted to do a sex scene from the very first moment, so they weren't going to paint one of the partners as of realistically reluctant to have sex. Looking at it from a meta way, there's no way they wouldn't have done the scene without having both of them idealistically happy.
What's wrong about "Easy", is the message it conveys. The typical "sex will fix everything so there's no need to be emotionally vulnerable with your partner, just ignore it". It doesn't matter if the characters are happy in the sequence, the intent and flaws of the song and context are what ruins the whole thing. It doesn't matter if the characters were canonically happy and consented, the way it's conveyed is flimsy.
In hindsight, it's a major fumble that should've been fixed. Both in writing and artistic execution, as they could've also not had sex in that specific song but idk, it's their thing that it was also a sexy lesbian song that talked about telling one partner to shut up several times.
But for the same reason as always, they refuse use the characters flaws for actual development in the future, and yes, this includes a slight fumble like this one, it can be messy but it could've been addressed in the future as an actual flaw of Chaggi. (And also to add actual depth to the pond level ass ship)
But no, for who knows why, they're always hell-bent on insisting that their toxic ass relationships and how since they intended to write them as healthy, then they MUST [must] be in reality too, whilst ignoring the obvious flaws of their ships. (Cough, cough, Stolitz, cough..)
I've said it before in a comment once, but Easy could've absolutely been an amazing song to portray how seemingly "healthy" or "wholesome" relationships can have their dark side and/or toxic traits as well. (Which is something everyone here seems to be oblivious of?)
Nonetheless, they're incredibly hell-bent on insisting how coercion isn't a thing or how they "good ships" can do absolutely no wrong, and that they weren't ignorant writers on how some things will come off, but that people are making shit up just to hate. As always. They never check what they actually implement onto a ship, just the "cool things" they wish to portray, but ultimately fail at the execution of it.
This whole debacle ends up in constant defenses and refusal to acknowledge these not-thought-over flaws and toxic traits, which ultimately ends up in the justification and romatization of these things. This has been their whole strategy whenever it comes to problematic things in ships they wished to favor.
Look I genuinely can't fathom a reason to do this if they're not implying that Will is a bad potential partner. It's doubly crazy because El is in the upside-down looking for Holly and Will is in the hospital...where Mike's parents are and asking for dating advice. Idk man. Vol 1 is also giving me anti-romance vibes so.
I think I have said this before, but I’m not a huge fan of Superbat.
BEFORE YOU BRING OUT THE PITCHFORKS, LET ME EXPLAIN!!!!!!
I am not saying that I all out hate the ship, I find it endearing at times. This is my opinion and I am not trying to attack those of you who like Superbat.
But I find it weird to ship superbat while also shipping any of the super kids with members of the batfam. I feel like it gets too close to being related for me to feel comfortable. I would rather have three (3) ships while keeping the parents as close buddies rather than having one (1) ship and creating a situation that can be off-putting.
Another thing that is seen far too often is that when two male characters are shipped, their canon female love interests are demonized or otherwise ignored. I think that Lois along with all of Batman’s relationships are interesting characters with fun stories to explore. You are also taking away a large part of Clark and Bruce’s stories by erasing those experiences. I also really like Lois and Clark, and I think they are very cute together.
Finally, I believe that the dc fandom focuses on these characters too much, not allowing others to shine. There are so many incredibly written stories within DC comics, but if you only ever focus on Batman and Superman, you never see them. Hell, people will say that Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman are the Big Three, but many fans will either alienate Wonder Woman or have her be a background character. Her story is one of my favorites. She is an incredible character, but people always look to her male counterparts.
So I ask that the next time you go to read SuperBat, please consider looking into another character. I’d even go as far as to say, find a something about a character you dislike, written by someone who obviously has a different view on the character. Find a new perspective.
EDIT:
I think my point may have gotten muddled. I am not saying that SuperBat is problematic. I am not saying that people should not enjoy the ship. I was simply pointing out that there are certain people out there who don’t give enough of a chance to other characters.
The main reason I feel this way is that I love looking at content of other, less talked about characters. But people often tie in Batman and, this is specifically about the people who believe Batman can do no wrong, they often make it so that everyone else act like idiots. I love Batman. He is a great character. But we need to stop putting other characters down just to make him seem better. This applies to all characters in all media. I’m not saying you cant simplify the character, but we need to make sure that people know that there is more to these characters.
Again, you can disagree with me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just wanted to share mine.
Also, my first point is totally my feelings. I’m not saying that the bat kids and super kids cant be platonic, but, for me, once I think of characters as romantic, its kinda hard to think of them as siblings and vice versa. Again, you can think what you want! Thats just my opinion.
Why are the “minors dni with my mediocre abuse fantasies” crowd the biggest wimps? I’m not physically stopping you from doing anything, I’m not teleporting into your house and ripping the pencil out of your hand, I’m just sharing my opinion as another artist who’s interested in dark subject matter. You can write the most gentle, good faith criticism one can ever write and they’ll still be so quick to act like you’re a 2000s christian who thinks playing too much GTA will cause kids to become violent. No dude, I’m someone who thought making tons of things centered around what I went through was healing me when in actuality it was just making me dwell on it. (Y’know how listening to sad music only makes you more sad? Something like that.) Also, I know a lot traumatized creatives might not want to hear this; but you have to understand your fellow survivors who don’t “cope” that way don’t want to and shouldn’t have to see That Shit. Just because YOU “cope” that way doesn’t mean everyone else does and that they should blindly support you at their own expense. Your “coping mechanism” is maladaptive, keep the self harm to yourself.
“you just wanna cancel an artist for no reason!” No dude, I’m trying to be gentle bc I know other people won’t be as gentle when sharing their own opinions. Almost every art movement in recorded history has had some sort of push back in some way shape or form. Do you really think we were gonna be exempt from that just because we’re living in the modern day? If a teenager calling you a gooner is enough for you to never want to pick up a pencil again I’m honestly surprised you made it this far as an artist.
“but it’s just fiction!” As if fiction can’t illicit emotions in people? How are you gonna try to defend us by saying our work is something that shouldn’t even be taken seriously?
Imagine having the arrogance of talking like this. And this is a thirty something year old TEACHER acting like this. This will be the last time I ever do a post like this but, honestly, I am so sick of her negativity. And the fact people LIKE her talking like this…they should be ashamed of themselves. They are only going to encourage people to cause to be ugly to each other for ships. People like her are going to help cause MHA to be remembered as a joke for how crazy people get over imagining doodles falling in love.
