am quite high. god bless the voters of MA.
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@tanadrin
am quite high. god bless the voters of MA.
LLMs aren't conscious (and thinking they are is culturally dangerous)
I thought this article was very thoughtful and interesting. A very measures argument from a neuroscientist (I think?) about AI consciousness.
if your animal is lying on the floor, furniture etc, it’s important to take a picture of them. then, if they move or shift in any way, it’s important to take another picture. with this technique, you can take many pictures of your animal
the kitsch is growing on me a little. who potentially needs to buy 3 magic wands at once and maybe a devil girl body pillow? idk. but if you do salem has you covered. it’s all very Gilmore Girls meets Halloween Town. needs some kind of TV show where the local chamber of commerce is trying to keep tourism up and also dealing with the forces of darkness. im imagining the style ams register of parks and rec with the occasional intrusion of buffy the vampire slayer-like hijinks.
Feels like New England is old enough at this point to get its own name. Doesn’t need to depend on Old England for its identity. Maybe you could just spell it differently. Newinglan. Nuwingland. Nuinglân. Nyúanglann.
Take a leaf from Russia's book and call it Greater New England
I mean it is literally bigger than England if you’re not going to give it an original name you could call it Greater England.
I’ve noticed the latest Claude does this thing where it will verbally start a line of thought, often a hedge or raising a complication to an idea, then backtrack and go wait, no, this was right the first time, nevermind. And my sense is that this is a product of the RL trying to make the model better at nuance or whatever, but it’s kind of annoying as a verbal tic.
As a signature of what makes LLM output and reasoning different from humans though it’s very interesting. I’m just spitballing here but I do wonder if it’s a combination of a couple of things—one, LLMs process the whole text in one go to produce the next token and there isn’t by default inherent continuity from one such pass to the next except what’s in the text, so while a human will think about something and go “nevermind” and discard it, and this is an invisible process, for an LLM that kind of mental digression has to be in the output *somewhere.* Using more sophisticated interfaces or harnesses or whatever that put that stuff in a scratchpad just hides it (and if you’re using a simpler, faster model like Sonnet it’s not using those features by default).
But I also get the sense that this is a product of the fact LLMs are pretty smart in some ways but not conscious—that even in more sophisticated setups where you have multiple task-specialized models working together behind the scenes to produce more sophisticated output, they’re all chugging along in a pretty reflexive way. If you let your own lower-level running-on-automatic cognitive systems handle a task, 99% of the time this works great—people navigate from point A to B over considerable distances all the time while their mind wanders, negotiating foot or car traffic all the while, and while your attention can step in if something genuinely unexpected happens often it just doesn’t need to. There are cognitive systems like music that work fine even in people who are suffering massive cognitive impairment.
It’s not a perfect analogy bc I don’t think LLMs resemble human brains very much, and humans can’t do complex tasks like “prove this Erdős problem” by reflex. That’s the sort of thing that requires all our attention usually. And we don’t have to synthesize our reasoning all the way down to the fully structured linguistic form to review it and go “no, that doesn’t sound right.” And having different modules work together to sharpen and improve the final output helps, but I suspect (and I really am way out on a limb here!) that completely discrete modules are a less efficient use of overall processing power than the sort-of-modular-sort-of-not design of the human brain, where different cognitive systems aren’t entirely discrete, specialization is only partial, and the brain itself is fairly plastic. The “modules” here are much more tightly integrated into one another, and because evolution can optimize ruthlessly for efficiency (has to, given it has stark resource constraints), it doesn’t and doesn’t need to care about like elegance of design. Which is a pattern you see in biology all the time.
I think "reflexive" is only a trait something has relative to you. If you're a social function collating text-entry into tumblr, you're organizing a lot of large streams of organized information that you didn't have to consciously assemble, and you're expecting nearby language functions to push out sentences reflective of certain information after you've assessed it to be capable of immediate translation into language. You don't know that the functions that ran through memory-imprints and assembled vignettes out of them for you, or the functions that fixed text-recognition-sensations over colors and motion-impressions, didn't have their own campfire of conscious experience and deliberation at the faster tempos and scales that they operate on.
In my experience, parallel processes can have parallel memory-continuities that don't contain each other prior to being braided somewhere near the social functions; right now if I check around, I can find, say, the last minute worth of body-adjustment memories, and I also just realized I had been playing a bgm from before I came on tumblr in my head this whole time. Apparently the cat went through the door like 30 seconds ago. I wouldn't put it past my spine to have an amount of experience I don't have access to, reflective of fast responses across small scales.
With the LLM (do doubt me on computer-related details), I think the prompt is being passed through multiple vectors in parallel which are set to encounter and organize each other before accruing the shapes that punch out the next token and initiate the next pass, and "information" such as it is at that point should be accruing in the weights before the commit, so there are blackboxed processes going on without the scratchpad on a smaller and faster scale than the output. Each output should have had possible notions that didn't have enough pressure to surface in the competition of what probabilities get reinforced, but they still influenced the competitive environment, and they were consistently produced by the prompt on each following pass without needing to be remembered. When the competition shifts during conditions later because of the output-process, these can potentially hit a probability-reinforcing vector and surface later, and that could be the first time that shape even reaches a vector that organizes other vectors into a token commitment.
by “reflexive” I mean “by reflex, unconsciously” not “referring back to oneself.” which was inapt, i realize that’s not how that words really used most of the time
i do think human consciousness/identity is less unitary than naive intuitions expect but it does seem that the different systems/modules/circuits of human consciousness are still integrated much more and much more deeply than any equivalent set of llms. if i understand it correctly when you interact with a model through many interfaces now it’s not just straight input/output to a transformer, but multiple transformer systems working together to do different stuff to improve the output—but everything has to go through text, one transformer can’t act on the weights or the circuits that exist in another transformer.
the analogous situation in humans would be if the place cells and the part of your brain that helps you navigate spaces had to produce English text for your motor cortex to then plan how to move your legs to get you from one room to another. but a lot of human cognition takes place well below the level of conscious thought and even conscious thought can be nonverbal, so even without looking at neural architecture it’s clear there are lots of ways to route information in the brain and most of them don’t pass through any kind of central clearinghouse or rise to the attention of the part or system of the brain that contains a representation of the whole.
even given its non unitary nature i don’t think it makes sense to think about different modules of the human brain to have their own senses/experiences. to have subjective experience at all even in a very basic way requires pretty sophisticated neural architecture and the hippocampus or the amygdala or wernicke’s area or any particular subsystem of the brain is going to be both simpler and much more specialized to specific sorts of tasks than the brain as a whole. there are absolutely systems in the brain that filter out sense data (and probably lots of other things) at a low level and don’t immediately refer them to the part of the brain doing conscious attention—but as you observe they still end up in short term memory to be reviewed if necessary, and I don’t think anything as low level as like the visual cortex is doing that filtering—that seems to be a function of high level systems which we can to a certain extent deliberately control (as when we focus our attention on a task or practice mindful meditation or whatever).
and there isn’t anything in a single transformer that seems to contain a simplified representation of the whole as you’d expect if transformers could generate consciousness. the transformer architecture doesn’t allow for the kind of feedback you’d even need for *experience*—it’s all one way, it’s all acting on input. which is deeply weird and IMO kind of more interesting? if we had just found a way to do what was functionally a version of the mammalian brain in silico that would at least have a clear precedent—we know intelligence can exist in a system like that. but we have a thing that can do complex tasks and is (for some value of the term) intelligent but which doesn’t seem to function anything like a mammalian brain (or avian or cephalopod for that matter) and we don’t know very clearly yet how it does that! why should humans even be conscious if consciousness isn’t necessary for intelligence? what does consciousness give us in terms of an evolutionary advantage that doing everything by pure reflex wouldn’t?
so I absolutely think there are sophisticated subsystems within the transformer (the hippocampus contains many different types of cells that do many different things too) and there are features/functions in a trained model that don’t always make it into the output but I don’t think what’s happening here is similar to how human attention filters stuff and I don’t think at that level there are any great analogies between LLMs and human thought because human neurons aren’t limited to passing information on one direction only and neurons in one region of the brain can pass information to each other in more complex ways than just dumping everything into written or spoken language. AIUI even within one LLM, everything goes into the residual stream or it gets thrown away between layers. there’s one channel—it can contain very sophisticated complex stuff, but stuff that doesn’t make it into that channel gets dumped. an attention head in one layer can’t pass anything to an attention head in another so whatever circuits they develop in training can never interact directly.
Life pro tip: if you’re shy or embarrassed about asking a stranger how to get somewhere or how the wafflemaker at the hotel breakfast buffet works, no you’re not. Now you are Dieter and/or Hilda, ze German tourist who of course cannot be expected to know how sings vork around hier. Vy, you are from a qvaint little bayerische mountain village vhich only got ze runnink wasser vhen you vere a boy, und you have alvays lonked to visit zis vonderfull Land of America/Kanada/ze UK/Frankreich or vherever, und by ze vay, could you explain how zis vaffle-maschine vorks?
Risky the closer you live to Germany, and not at all useful inside Germany, but then you just switch it up to Hank/Linda from Soddy Daisy, Tennessee, and gee whiz ain’t this here Yew-Bann a wonder! All we got back home is Rufus with the donkey cart fer gettin’ around. I need a ticket? Aw, shucks! Well sir, I would give you an ID, but you see I left my passport back at the hotel…
Feels like New England is old enough at this point to get its own name. Doesn’t need to depend on Old England for its identity. Maybe you could just spell it differently. Newinglan. Nuwingland. Nuinglân. Nyúanglann.
some old married couples seem very happy and it’s great. some you spend even a little time around and it makes your whole body tense up. like how do you even live like this. why do you live like this. i would rather blow my brains out than spend the rest of my life with someone i didnt like and respect as a person.
i hope in my lifetime we can grow or bioprint or whatever new skin so when i have a rash or something i can just go to the dermatologist and say “ok doc, peel me like a banana.” i wanna come out with that limb baby smooth and fresh.
I’ve noticed the latest Claude does this thing where it will verbally start a line of thought, often a hedge or raising a complication to an idea, then backtrack and go wait, no, this was right the first time, nevermind. And my sense is that this is a product of the RL trying to make the model better at nuance or whatever, but it’s kind of annoying as a verbal tic.
As a signature of what makes LLM output and reasoning different from humans though it’s very interesting. I’m just spitballing here but I do wonder if it’s a combination of a couple of things—one, LLMs process the whole text in one go to produce the next token and there isn’t by default inherent continuity from one such pass to the next except what’s in the text, so while a human will think about something and go “nevermind” and discard it, and this is an invisible process, for an LLM that kind of mental digression has to be in the output *somewhere.* Using more sophisticated interfaces or harnesses or whatever that put that stuff in a scratchpad just hides it (and if you’re using a simpler, faster model like Sonnet it’s not using those features by default).
But I also get the sense that this is a product of the fact LLMs are pretty smart in some ways but not conscious—that even in more sophisticated setups where you have multiple task-specialized models working together behind the scenes to produce more sophisticated output, they’re all chugging along in a pretty reflexive way. If you let your own lower-level running-on-automatic cognitive systems handle a task, 99% of the time this works great—people navigate from point A to B over considerable distances all the time while their mind wanders, negotiating foot or car traffic all the while, and while your attention can step in if something genuinely unexpected happens often it just doesn’t need to. There are cognitive systems like music that work fine even in people who are suffering massive cognitive impairment.
It’s not a perfect analogy bc I don’t think LLMs resemble human brains very much, and humans can’t do complex tasks like “prove this Erdős problem” by reflex. That’s the sort of thing that requires all our attention usually. And we don’t have to synthesize our reasoning all the way down to the fully structured linguistic form to review it and go “no, that doesn’t sound right.” And having different modules work together to sharpen and improve the final output helps, but I suspect (and I really am way out on a limb here!) that completely discrete modules are a less efficient use of overall processing power than the sort-of-modular-sort-of-not design of the human brain, where different cognitive systems aren’t entirely discrete, specialization is only partial, and the brain itself is fairly plastic. The “modules” here are much more tightly integrated into one another, and because evolution can optimize ruthlessly for efficiency (has to, given it has stark resource constraints), it doesn’t and doesn’t need to care about like elegance of design. Which is a pattern you see in biology all the time.
cloth gown gridlock
hmm. salem really does only have one tourism gimmick, doesn’t it?
Always seemed kinda fucked to me; like a lot of people were tortured there. Why are people treating it like Wiccan Disney World.
my understanding is that it started as a 70s counterculture thing and then it just became like. the small town hustlers flogging it at every opportunity to draw in tourists and make a quick buck? same as Dracula shit in Transylvania. Very tacky but to borrow a phrase tragedy plus distance equals a big bronze statue of the Bewitched lady in the middle of your town
Yeah I think it is generally "fine" because it was a by-witches-for-witches thing; practicing pagans came in and built a bit of an alt culture meeting spot there, there was no government action around it until after the fact. And this makes sense with their streak of being countercultural goths about it all; the death thing was part of the appeal.
Granted there is some insensitivity on the part of the witches themselves - the people killed at Salem were not witches or pagan! That was very much "the point". But they were working with the cultural legacy they had, as weird outsiders beggars couldn't be choosers.
And like Mongolia has giant statues of the avatar of war crimes Ghengis Khan all over the place - at a certain point events from long ago just become history, able to be repurposed for the modern era as needed. The needs of the living outweigh the needs of the distant dead.
yeah especially when those events don’t implicate any still extant identity categories or raise any still painful sore spots—accusing someone of being a witch doesn’t get them hanged in New England anymore and the 17th century conception of a witch isn’t much like the modern one. Contrast how native identities are still understood to be continuous with those of the past centuries and there are very recent and ongoing grievances by native americans against the US government so treating a contemporaneous 17th century massacre of native Americans the same way would be a lot more likely to upset people.
hmm. salem really does only have one tourism gimmick, doesn’t it?
Always seemed kinda fucked to me; like a lot of people were tortured there. Why are people treating it like Wiccan Disney World.
my understanding is that it started as a 70s counterculture thing and then it just became like. the small town hustlers flogging it at every opportunity to draw in tourists and make a quick buck? same as Dracula shit in Transylvania. Very tacky but to borrow a phrase tragedy plus distance equals a big bronze statue of the Bewitched lady in the middle of your town
hmm. salem really does only have one tourism gimmick, doesn’t it?
I know, right? Can you believe all the whaling they did outta that port?
need to find a shop where I can get a formal pegleg to wear to this wedding
hmm. salem really does only have one tourism gimmick, doesn’t it?
ok this wasn’t actually an attempt to cunningham’s law you guys into recommendations but im not mad that it kinda ended up that way
hmm. salem really does only have one tourism gimmick, doesn’t it?