Celeria's Realm of Theory and Debate

A Homestuck Theory nexus, to allow as much activity as possible to be viewed in one place, promoting the mass discussion, visibility, and interchange of ideas throughout the community.

[autumnblogs]

Day 1: A Young Man Stands In His Bedroom

I don’t expect Day 1 to be too eventful, but I’m also pretty wordy.

https://homestuck.com/story/3

Homestuck has this sort of weird relationship with the idea of “Started just now, but always was that way” that I think probably is pretty important to the way it tackles cultural narratives overall. Growing up, cultural narratives have a huge effect on our day to day lives, but we’re not really cognizant of them until they are right up in our faces. That’s my thesis, by the way, or at least one of them. Homestuck is a story about stories. That’s not the only thing that Homestuck is about, and it might not even be the most important thing it’s about, but that is one of the things that it’s about.

Or maybe I’m full of horseshit. Wouldn’t be the first time. More after the break.

Keep reading

[theorynexus]

Indeed, given the incredibly common references to other works (lampooned in the beginning with the false attributions, made more subtle [such as the many connections with Wizard of Oz that are made, including Jade being crushed under a heavy building or following a yellow path that might have been mistaken for a spiral of bricks if one looked at it just right] or on the nose [Hussie riding a certain Falcor in reference to a scene I’ll post a picture from below] as the story goes on), it quite makes sense to say that there is a great deal of commentary going on about the nature of storytelling, and the interactions between the readers and the writers.      This also meshes extremely well with the nature of Calliope, Caliborn, and AH (avatar)’s respective parts in the plot of the story~

“ they have a pretty strong tendency to sort of create the background radiation of the comic. Like, I don’t think that John and Karkat ever bully each other about the fact that they’re mutually bad at coding, which would be hilarious,” Yes, yes it would be.  I would argue that the character introductions *do* actually have quite a bit to do with the nature of the characters as a whole, though. In particular, while the gags to do with John’s slow development toward competence in sylladex usage (which mirrors his growth toward maturity and adulthood, made explicit by the fact that Wallet is his final modus), the commentary on him being an amateur magician and being interested in paranormal lore most certainly points toward his Classpect as an Heir of Breath (being a magician class, and a spiritually-aligned aspect).      More obviously, this along with his ghostyTrickster chat handle point toward his eventual role in the story as the retcanon machine that we know him quite well as by this point, in much the same way that his interest in the particular movies he is interest in very clearly points toward various story beats in the comic’s future: crashing meteors, dead parents and ghosts, Put the Bunny Back in the Box.  And c. ....................... “The first of our funky gaming abstractions. Homestuck is a story about stories, and the kind of story that it’s often about (when it’s not about highly abstract cultural narratives) is the video game. Especially the point and click adventure game.” Very true; however, note the obfuscation involved:  this very first story beat takes the opportunity to point the reader toward the idea that all is not as it might first appear to be, and that there are deeper themes and ideas going into play with the setting and narrative than appear to be present on their face.  Out of sympathy for his /perceived/ lack of arms, the reader supposedly acts.    This is *also* an example of John being a magician--- he is metaphorically manipulating the perceptions of the reader by hiding his non-lack with the nature of his image on screen. This is further emphasized by his eventual retrieval of his /fake/ arms from the chest, which underscores at the same time his love for comedy.   Extremely tight writing, right here. Your vocalization regarding the initial annoyance and/or turn-off to Homestuck speaks quite clearly regarding the consensus that has emerged in most people’s minds, as far as I understand things, when it comes to the first few bits of the story. ................................... “I’ll never get tired of Dad Egbert. Is he the Platonic Ideal of Dadliness? Maybe. Dadliness, and more generally, Manliness, is a lens we can look at a lot of John’s character arc through.”  This is absolutely the case.  This is an archetypal requirement that is imposed by the fact that John’s arc acts as a sort of *base* growing up story that some of the other arcs play off and relate to in very interesting ways.   Dave’s own situation comes to mind quite immediately, with the coexistence of the two young men’s stories allowing for a very careful and intriguing analysis of exactly what it means to be a proper man, especially considering the fact that John (as a comedian and a magician) does not aspire to be/have interests in traditionally “manly” roles.  The fact that he represents a child pursuing a dream that falls outside of this normal range may very well play a key role in Dave’s eventual willingness to pry himself away from his brother’s shadow, and to decide that he in fact doesn’t *want* to be that same sort of archetypal warrior, rather than being stuck in an infinite malaise where all he can do is deny that he is capable of living up to the standards his brother set.    Certainly, John seems to have been very influential in Dave’s development and emergence as an individual, to the point that his effect on him echoed across instances of the universe (into the Alpha Kids’ world), and this would definitely constitute a proper reflection of John’s role as Heir of Breath (conduit for/vortex of change and direction). ......................................................................... To my followers who are staying with me specifically for Homestuck Epilogue liveblogging:   I am very sorry that I’ve had such large gaps between posts. I will attempt to get back into a regular posting habit soon if I can manage it.   >.<

[theorynexus]

116:  Jane Seems Very Stressed

This is a question we should all probably be asking. Specifically of Jane, not ourselves, mind.   She simply seems very, very sensitive and prone to negative emotions, right now.

Ah. Yes, well, that’ll do it to you.  She’s pushing herself beyond the limits of what a single person reasonably can do; whereas she should be relieving pressure from herself by allowing at least one of these to drop to a level of lesser interest for a while.   Not that such a situation cannot be properly managed, mind you. It is certainly possible to juggle all of the aforementioned responsibilities at once: just not good for one’s health (mental or physical). 

A difficult time, but not an impossible time of it, eh?    Also:   Ears are indeed quite important, though humans can also bite them off.  Not quite so young, though; certainly, the excessive physicality of trolls does indeed give non-Player versions of them a significant advantage.   I do wonder why humans have not inherited player-like excesses in capabilities in this world, though~   Shouldn’t all the available gene samples have been from Players and their direct relatives (with little dilution possibly coming from Dad Crocker)?   Strength, at the very least, should be something that even babies are more capable of expressing in this world (making me think of Bam Bam from The Flintstones). 

Has the light of faded Relevance a blinding effect on the Seer?   Or is it simply that the two stories have diverged too much for a version of Rose whose expression of her Ultimate Self has been halted (and thus, whose individuality is more intact, but whose powers are presumably less--- if we buy into Dirk’s description of such matters in the first place)?

Oh, hey, looks like it’s a combination of the intense Void of the battleground where the fight with Lord English was fought at and the intensity of his Master of Time powers (which, honestly speaking, work quite well together to amplify the Death aspect [pun intended; connection made; no reference to “sub-aspects” or anything of the sort intended] of both).

I am indeed quite sure that the extra-canon nature of Jade’s present life does indeed act as a source of mitigating potential for this Jade’s life expression, but it is not quite strong enough to represent a well of erasure on its own:   as shown by Alt!Calliope’s coexistence with Our!Calliope in the Meat side of the coin, while there may be some sort of metaphysical oomph forcing one version to take the back seat to the other while two are present (in a way very similar to the DOOMed Self mechanic which was partially emergent from Lord English’s Will), it is entirely possible for two individuals of the same greater Self to live out lives in the same timeline (and given Calliope’s art, likely for both to have a great importance to the propagation of the story/reality, as well).    Mind you, Alt!Calliope sortof cheated in a similar way to Lord English’s cheat using Jack Noir to put a version of himself in the 8-Ball Session (Jack English), but I think that the matter/example still “counts,” regardless. Also, I’d just like to say that both of these are very intense examples of the two halves of the Cal/Call coin being very Cherub-like, as far as Homestuck-style Cherubs are concerned.

Partly true and partly false in her statement, obfuscating the nature of the situation, but attempting to help by doing so. Very Rogue of Void-y.

Life’s too short, so let’s have a Corpse Party! (Man, not entirely dead, but still going to be buried. What an interesting-awkward-sad fate.   On a related note:  This Jade is in a very similar situation to Meat!John.   I wonder if she’ll end up [probably] being revived somehow too.) Aaaaannnnd that’s all the time we have for this program, folks. Tune in next time to see how things might go then!   (And perhaps you’ll be just as entertained [or not] as you were this time!)

[theorynexus]

115:  Mystery Fireball Dame?

I am yet again reminded of the fact that Jade always seems to be more effected by other versions of herself than other characters.  Is this a Space thing?  I don’t remember this happening with Kanaya, so it would seem not to be certain that that is the case (though Calliope and Alt!Calliope do have profound impacts on one another).  Very curious, indeed, regardless.

Oh no!  Getting nasty bits of glass sharp stuff on your hands is never a good thing. At least she didn’t rub her eye, though~

Hmm. Is reviving this dead Jade really a good idea?   It never seems to be really workable to have two living copies of the same character around at the same time.  Even the shards of Dirk seem to experience calamity after some degree of delay, due to the DOOMiness of double existence.    Regardless, we press on:

Interesting distinction.  Obviously, this seems to be a result of Jade interfering with the way their situation would have developed over time, otherwise; however, I do wonder if this is a destructive/bad thing, insofar as they might ease into being together more naturally with less pressure on one another than Dirk was putting on them.  (Yeah, it probably is anyway. Jade seems like a romantic bad luck charm, at this point; or rather, her pushiness seems like it’s going to naturally lead to some sort of falling out that will hurt the relationships between all three of them.  Maybe I’m just being overly pessimistic, though.)

Paranoia about being thought of as being a necrophiliac, huh?    Curious.    (Also:   Heh. “Gossip sins.”)   Wonder what Jake’s smiling about. Is it just a facade, or is he sincerely glad to see them and have their visit break up awkwardness that was happening over there?

I really appreciate this excellent description of the wealth, here. It makes for an interesting contrast to the less elegant one given to Jake’s mansion~ 

This is so very beautiful.  I wonder why everyone else is gathered here.  Were they already intending on heading over, or were they just close enough to arrive easily [and/or together], perhaps via one of the windows Roxy seems to love, and happened to be told about the corpse as Jade+Dave+Karkat were on the way?  (Awww. Little Vriska is coming along splendidly, by the way. <3)

Weird hors d'oeuvres for a picnic.   Does “the girls” include Jake, by the way? (  ***resists the urge to make some speciesist joke about blood not ruining the Pizza for Karkat, anyway***  [Which wouldn’t be true, if the reaction he seems to be having otherwise is indicative of anything~] )

I mean, is small talk really all that bad when the alternative is talking about an awkward-random dead girl they have no clue about?  Yes, it probably is.  It’s just a really, really awkward situation in general.

Space tier, huh?  Also:  Haaah.   Truly, that timing-related optimism is just crystalized Dave.

+ “irritated.” Why were they remaining downstairs in the first place?     Hah.  True to form for any Vriska, apparently. ...   Oh gosh, I have the sudden premonition that Jane’s going to be like another Vriska in Tavros’s life, being overbearing and always trying to push him to excellence, despite him probably ending up having a similar mentality to the original Tavros and just wanting to relax/take things at his own pace, for ironic reasons.    Ahhh, that is not a good thought.

***shrieks***    WHAT?!  Is--  Is Gamzee actually married to her?! (To be fair, vacillation is a thing.  If this relationship is working out anywhere near how a traditional troll romance ought, then Jake should potentially fill that roll at least some of the time.  Not that it’s likely to be good for his mental health.   Troll-human romances sure are complicated, right?   [Man, this doesn’t paint a promising picture for any potential OC shippers out there. Makes it seem like interspecies romance is sortof DOOMed to fail--- or at least to be very awkward~])

Wow, I can’t believe Gamzee is saying something as sensible as this.  Anyway, have to go.  Sadly, can’t analyze that right now.

[theorynexus]

114:  Beyond Adoption

That last line is very interesting, in particular. It paints Karkat as alllmost a little speciesist, himself, though I am not sure it quite qualifies, since the assumption that a troll child would be treated differently (likely poorly) is indeed a legitimate concern, and could certainly change the parental calculus of a completely objective individual, I should think.

This is most humorous. X3

Aww. This is surprisingly cute, and does show that the three of them do have some degree of romantic chemistry together, rather than just as individual pairs. While it still doesn’t prove things might work out well (especially in the light of the conversations between Dave+Terezi/Karkat+Terezi that the Teal Troll told John about), it does at least give one a glimmer of hope for them.    Of course, there is a good chance that this hope is intended specifically to lighten the spirits of the audience before Hussie yanks the rug out from under them (as is often his stylistic tendency), but it certainly is good to know a bit more of the conditions of their romantic potential regardless.

Tut tut tut. Explaining the joke takes away from the magnitude and potential of its humor, Dave. I know you know better than that.

***snerk***   (Obliviously plowing forward does add a bit back in, though.)

Oh geeze. That wasn’t entirely a joke. That was also self-doubt driven by depressing comparison between himself and his Bro.   >:

Ahhhhh!!!   And he’s comparing himself to Jake in the Jane/Jake/Gamzee situation!  (Or really, more Gamzee, probably, but it depends on how one constructs/destructs the metaphor.)    D: (The empirical evidence line is interesting, by the way. They clearly haven’t had enough cases to draw proper conclusions, yet, which he should know, considering Jade’s expertise in science and his own at least passing interest in its various fields, long before starting the romance with her~)

Sadly, I am not well-versed enough to make actual claims about the developmental consequences of such a life on the kid.   I am not sure there are enough studies on the effects of children being raised in households with additional parents to actually create a well-founded hypothesis, though.   (Also, one should, if one is being serious, also include some measure of the fact that there will likely be a significant religious disagreement between parents as the child is growing up, which may effect their development, as well.)

***struggling not to laugh***    Why is schadenfreude so fricking powerful?! XD

***shudders***     Not only does it feel disturbingly possible that Jane has done that (and YES, it is both possible for a woman to rape a man, and for rape to happen in marriage--- don’t even get me started), this is horrible foreshadowing. Not... the rape part I’d think, mind you, though that is also conceivable, considering how much Dave and Karkat were resisting things in the Meat side of the coin, but the leaving a bad relationship part.   These are not a pleasant prospect to have brought up, now.

Ahhhgh, frack, he’s starting it up already.   It almost sucks worse, because I’m sure their look is not just filled with selfish desperation, but a genuine concern for Jade and a desire for her to be happy, which can be hallmarks of bad relationships, too.     >~~~<

THE HECK?!?!?!!!

This is very interesting, though, seeing their limited but still potent ability to react to things, here. It certainly seems better than what happened in the other version of things, with the very awkward Dave/Jake situation at the trailing end of the campaign.

My first reaction was to wonder if this would be a Terminator reference. My second is to remember the hyper-epilogue segment at the end of the Meat Epilogue.   This shouldn’t be the version of her from the fight with Lord English... right?

Huh. Yeah, it seems like that could actually be the case?!   Darn, I don’t---   didn’t... that version of her definitely went through the black hole, meaning that, considering she IS the version that appeared in the Meat Epilogue epilogue, a whole lot should have happened beyond the point where Davebot appeared in order for this to actually be logically her?     Man, that does indeed make it feel more like a Terminator reference, somehow. Aaaannnd I have to stop right when the action begins to shift from internal and social struggles to actual existential/mortal threats.   It figures.

[theorynexus]

113:  In Which Our Perspective Logically Shifts Across Phone Lines.

So. We are now seeing what’s going on on Jade’s side of the call, I think.

That is an incredibly beautiful description.   We also mayyy not quite be in the same time frame.

5.5/10.   Maturity is not necessarily the most important factor in parenthood, though, and it can certainly come with the experience of actually beginning to raise a child, as well.

Dave would be more of a 3, but Karkat would be a 7, so this thinking does pan out.   (Very interesting, the fact that Jade and Karkat seem to be getting along a little bit better, here.)

!!!    Mustache! 

How is this possible?!?!?! Also, referring to John as being pregnant and having a mustache makes for a very silly image of him with a baby bump, made funnier by the fact that Dave says he looks good.

Yes. This is the definition of screwed the heck up.   Just think of how much of a child John was at the beginning of Homestuck and compare it to this new archetype of Manliness! ...   Man, being able to see actual art of him like this and him acting as silly and immature as ever would be so great.

I agree. That is indeed very cute, seeing her do that to him, rather than herself. I choose to willfully ignore this subtext as well, in favor of getting back to the origin story of the previous conversation, in which Jade, Dave, and Karkat discuss having a baby for the first time.

...  Yes, attempting to get genetic material from all three individuals and make a single viable offspring would have numerous “issues,” indeed.   Or is she referring to all three of them raising the child, rather than definitively being the biological parents of it?

Wait, WHAT?!     That is absolutely ridiculous, and highly dangerous to the interspecies peace and stability of their world!   Having the potential of any of the races raising any of the others via adoption would be a really, really good way to ensure that you’d have less likelihood of hatred and violence breaking out in the future, and there’s really no reason to make such laws! I just don’t understand why anyone would think this is reasonable.   @w@ ... Anyway, though, I will have to be going, now.  Again, an awkward point to break things off, but it cannot be helped. Sorry!

[theorynexus]

112: In Which Options Are Discussed, and Anguish is Seen.

Yes, that would be quite the tricky subject, indeed. I would think the only option there would be for Dave to be the biological father, in which case there would be the incest taboo to consider.  There could be science fictitious mechanisms which might make the above assumption incorrect, but I do not know... .    Rose is very kind, regardless, not rejecting this outright. 

Ah. Hmm.   Well, that’s good, I suppose.  Interesting that “lol” was the response Jade had to this thought.

Well, indeed, it would seem that Karkat has decided to go with the option of Jade having masculine sex organs and likely no (or no functional) female ones.   An interesting choice, to be sure.   Again, considering the complexity of intersex fertility potential and the fact that her male gonads would presumably be at least partially canine in form, I am surprised that this would be a more viable alternative (genetically, biologically speaking) than the incestuous or interspecies (alien) options.    Maybe it isn’t, necessarily, but Jade believes that with the combination of her scientific knowledge and Rose’s Seer of Light powers, they’d be able to alter the genetic material (and/or possibly the spermatozoa itself/themselves) in such a way that it would work. Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with the works of genetic hybridization--  such as, for example, the goat able to produce spider silk  --to be able to properly comment on the degree to which reproductive viability might actually be present in her case, under more optimal conditions (which I am sure to some extent is something geneticists attempt to encourage, in such experiments).   Even so, I am not sure there have in fact been cases in which the actual reproductive system has been altered in such individuals, so I am not sure there would be proper examples to compare this situation to, regardless. Oh!    I should hasten to add that there could be the possibility of a viable offspring if some means of inducing parthenogenesis were to be used, but this would likely depend on whether or not Jade has viable ovaries/ovarian cells, which is possible but has been made to seem somewhat less likely via the passages implying her male organs, above.        (I also don’t think there is the possibility of inducing transformation from sperm to egg; whereas I think the opposite has been shown to actually be theoretically feasible, but I could not be certain if I said anything with authority on such matters.)

This is all really, terribly sad.   Even if what he says is true, technically, trying to hide his anguish from her like that is not good.   Having at least one person that you can honestly confide in can be incredibly helpful in dark times, and holding back because he doesn’t want to bother her with his problems is just going to make them worse, and cause him to feel even further down. >:

[theorynexus]

111

This is a good sign. Maternal instincts, and whatnot.    (It’s also vaguely interesting that Jake is transfixed by Gamzee’s rear in the same way that others are transfixed by his, but I do not really know what implications to take from it.  Feels like it’s just an artifact of Rage, intended to vex and distract the reader,  and probably nothing much more---   though I could perhaps be wrong, and it could be something like a symbol of the clown taking over the role Jake expected for himself in the relationship and making him uncomfortable, or something.   Perhaps there’ll be more clues to interpret it with later.)

Indeed: Jake’s discomfort (and the awkward clash of lifestyles Gamzee brings into the house, as symbolized by the old bottle being placed in his codpiece) is made much clearer, here.     Though the baby is a simpler soul, and is capable of shrugging things off once its needs are met, it is not so for the man who would seem to be his father. Even considering the fact he knew that a relationship with Jane might not be ideal for him, I’m sure Jake never could have imagined the scenario that’s currently playing out.   It’s probably quite rough on his sense of masculine pride. Of course, we’ll have to read on to see:   I am, to some extent just speculating, using what we can see to project forward.

Aaaahhh, Gamzee is invading the narration!!!    D: (Really, it’s probably moreso that he’s just flooding Jake’s mind and making it difficult to focus with his Rage induction, but even so~) I do hope that Jane can hear the frustration in his voice, and Gamzee doesn’t just project obliviousness to her like he did with Terezi in Murderstuck.    >.< Honestly, I’m quite surprised that Jake was willing to take a call, considering the present circumstances, though.

...   Has he already died once?  “killing him forever” is quite suspicious, given the context of Jane being his mother and being able to raise the dead. (It’s good that Jake knows his limits and finds somewhere that might be a bit safer, though.)

That ellipsis after “all of us together” is somewhat suspicious, but I’ll mostly leave that alone.   It’s very interesting that Jake chooses to ask about her own relationship, here. I guess he probably specifically wants to know how she can function in a three person relationship, and how he might be a little more okay with it, if that is possible?   As such, that idea of love not ever running out might at least help him to see what’s going on with Jane a little bit more clearly, and possibly to accept it, if he can wrap his head around it? Then again, I’m not sure Jane’s the best one to be getting romantic advice from, in general,, and I am personally finding her “all of my love” line a little suspicious, given she’s ostensibly supposed to be feeling something different for Karkat, if in fact her idea for making their relationship work with quadrants has any legitimacy at all, and she is thus not just faking it to try and force it to work out.

I mean, to be fair, Jane did invite you to join in, good sir.  The fact that you are not actually emotionally involved in (meaning specifically: are not a part of) their relationship is well taken, though.    This is likely at least partly responsible for your mental anguish, I should imagine: rather than being in a single relationship, all together, it is as if she is in two competing relationships, and not affording what feels like enough attention to the one you are involved in--- the one from which sprung forth your child together.

Oh? Is that so...?    Does... does her doghood mean she’s infertile with humans?  >: (Also, yes, I can imagine Jade being very happy+eager at the prospect of having children~)

Oh, umm... hmm. The way she says that, I imagine it has to do with her reproductive organs in some way.   There are multiple options that could potentially be the cause, here (particularly since Bec was a male, and if her own gonads were combined with male [or, I should say, teste] cells in any way, this tends toward causing infertility, as far as I understand the mechanics of such intersex biology).   I am not entirely sure if I should spend much time speculating on the specifics of what she’s getting at, since she’s being vague, though. It is sortof sad that none of them would feel comfortable having a kid together artificially, though. v.v

Ah, the irony: that being a frog breeder naturally disinclines them toward being personal breeders together by that means. Anyway, though, I’ve ran out of time.  Enjoy!   (Or not, if that’s the case.)

[theorynexus]

110:  Why Can Tragedy Be So Funny?

***laughs hysterically, and is highly tempted to slap a .gif in here for good measure, because this is so very horribly ironic***      My goodness, though. I can almost see where she’s coming from, and how she can convince herself of that, but the “cultural stereotypes, junk science, and knee-jerk bigotry” line is so painfully on the nose after all that I analyzed in my last two posts that it’s almost enough to make my cry of laughter.

Aahhh, gosh, I hate Cancel Culture.  (Not that I don’t want people to pay when they have actually done wrong, and I recognize that the justice system is not always capable of properly addressing these issues; however, the knee-jerk reaction of people held under the sway of said cultural phenomenon are essentially engaging in the social equivalent of vigilantism, and just like said highly criminal behavior [taking the law into one’s own hands, despite legal authorities often not even being given a chance to properly investigate a crime, let alone see any potential punishment meted out], Cancel Culture behavior can easily lead to punishment of individuals who are innocent, *not* just those who are actually deserving of the backlash they receive.   It reflects a sickness in our globally linked society, not a virtue, despite it being drawn from reasonable and well-founded rage against injustice.)     It is honestly somewhat disturbing to see it come up in here.   On the other hand, though, Homestuck has always been keen on making social commentary, blatant or otherwise, and I don’t truly begrudge Hussie for putting this in.   It’s just... weird and irksome.

Literal? ... Is “insect” a racial slur against trolls?    I mean... it might not be intended that way.  She may just be using literal incorrectly as is often the case when said word is used, nowadays, as well. It just... seems weird? But wow, the narrator is really pushing that caliginous angle, here. Not sure how I feel about that, in the context of a sci-fi racism equivalent’s discussion, here.  I mean, Gamzee is a piece of garbage, and I don’t see him as being avoid exploiting and reveling in such things, but still... ick.

I’d say it is highly rude to bring up his past drug problems like this (and it probably still actually is), but I am not actually sure about the etiquette on this particular issue, since people in recovery call themselves addicts at NA/AA meetings.

...   ***is left dwelling for an uncomfortably long period of time on whether or not Gamzee is being literal and she is in fact lactating there, or not***      (Curse my affinity for analyzing/overanalyzing literature, and things in general...!)

***gags, especially with him bringing up double-speak, which almost makes him seem sophisticated, in a horribly twisted way***

...   I would just like to say, for the record, that unless you explicitly are engaging in BDSM activities, and have had a conversation expressing that it’s okay to continue in the case of such protests, ignoring a person saying no (male or female, though if you are physically stronger [and Gamzee is] this is even more important) is absolutely not right. On a related note, uuugggh, this makes me feel even more queasy.  Not only is it way TMI, but the idea of having sex with a baby in the room is just...  not right, in my opinion.   ***shakes my head*** (The matter of Jake being there is something I am more ambivalent about. The three of them can indulge in whatever kinks they want, and if these happen to involve getting off on watching, being watched, or being cuckolded, that is their business, and I pose no objections to this.)

Well, it’s certainly polite of her to invite him to join.  A little bit awkward, considering his expressed concern for the baby, but realistically I can’t hold someone who has just broken away from coitus to the most sensible/optimal reactions. So does this mean that Jane is in fact not/no longer lactating, or is it more that she prefers not to breast feed?  Alternatively, I suppose it could be weird if, say, there happens to be clown slobber right where the little guy would be feeding, or even if she’s just overly tender there from being forcefully manipulated (in the original sense of touching something with the hand) there.    She may also be wanting to avoid associating pleasurable touch in such regions with feeding the baby. Regardless, I do wonder if this is actually a human/troll hybrid, or if it’s Jake/Jane’s biological child, and Gamzee simply influenced her/them into naming him as such.  There are many questions which arise form this situation~ ... Aaaand sadly I must break things off right there.  Sorry.

[theorynexus]

109: How Do You Expect to Get Back to the Story When It’s Already Here?

I would say that that would almost be a valid argument, if not for these facts: there are immortal gods that could potentially intervene in such affairs in order to prevent that, the existence of the Beforan Trolls gives evidence to Alternian society not being a natural state of affairs, and, as I believe Gamzee is about to point out, the presence of additional (rival, sapient) species in the new trolls’ historical existence will have already exerted significant sociological pressures to shift the nature of troll culture, making the idea of a sort of “regression” to Alternian social states something that does not entirely make sense--- for there was no point in the new trolls’ history for in which they were truly like Alternian Trolls to begin with (and one cannot regress to a state which has not existed before, from their perspective). It would seem that Jane is looking at things in a sort of “vacuum”---   that is to say, she is expressing concerns which do not relate themselves to actual history or tangible evidence. She looks at things with an eye to what “could” happen with little and flimsy evidence to back up the possibility of such things actually occurring.   Certain factors in her consideration are valid, when taken alone--- as was noted regarding the issues of population growth and lifespan which I pointed out before reaching the point where she does ---but when taken together, and considered as the package of argument which she is presenting, well, I can certainly see why Gamzee is thinking she’s sounding a little Xenophobic:   it all does indeed seem a little emotion driven, rather than entirely rational.

From the perspective of someone who has an eternal life, and thus the capacity to be eternally patient in making such judgments, I can almost see the logic, here, but at the same time, I believe that Gamzee’s argument has more teeth than her own:   artificially controlled vs. natural breeding does not seem like a strong enough sociological factor to drive heightened levels of violent and/or domineering behavior in a population, in the face of millennia of pacific behavior.   On the other hand, ingrained societal prejudice toward one caste of individuals, expressed on the level of world-wide governmental action, does seem like it could potentially catalyze rebellious, countercultural behavior, if not inter-specific/racial violence.

I mean... honestly, I wouldn’t doubt it. I am not entirely sure how truthfully devoted to troll rights and politics Gamzee actually is; whereas I have every reason to believe based on previous evidence that he would be very, very willing to act as if he were in order to drive call caliginous romantic behavior and/or sexual urges associated therewith. Sadly, I don’t think I have the time time read further than this and make any level of proper commentary. I *do* loath the fact that I have 10 minutes less to read and prepare in the morning on this job than I had with the previous one. Regardless, thank you for reading. I appreciate your patronage~

[theorynexus]

108:  Attempting to Get Back to the Story

While political theory is awesome, and some of what I said last time was a bit rushed (and the last bits were intended more to suggest that there were ways to get around the current political situation, rather than to give definitive answers), I will try to get a little bit further in the actual text, today.

Ha. Ha. Clown shoos. Hoo hoo. Unfortunately, metaphors do not always actually work to convey reality. Even if they did, suggesting people need shoes equal to their feet does not take away the fact that people can actually wear a wide range of shoes within those 2 or 3 sizes that actually _will_ work. Things can stretch. Some shoes are more comfortable than others.  Having a shopkeeper have all the choice instead of yourself would suck a great deal.

Without actually tackling this issue at all, one can very easily point out the fact that it does not logically follow that the government in turn has the right and duty to restrict and drag down those who were born into what are considered “better positions” in order to raise the relative position of others compared to them--- that is to say:   in this case, it would seem that all governmental action is focused on restricting troll autonomy and liberty, rather than using some sort of social program to improve the status of humans.   It’s also worth noting that she’s using an economic argument to attempt to speak to matters of political rights, privileges, et cetera, which is somewhat absurd.

I’m not 100% sure that is true. Humans can reproduce at an absolutely incredible rate, and while this is variable, much of troll reproductive speed likely emerged based on the fact that breeding was forced on penalty of death in their previous society. No scientific study has actually been conducted to obtain any sort of actual baseline for troll reproduction; moreover, while there is a single mother grub, I am absolutely certain that troll population expansion is constrained within a certain absolute maximum; whereas human growth rates are in fact potentially exponential, given the fact that more individuals capable of bearing children are born with slightly more than 50% of all childbirths (and both races seem to reach sexual maturity at around the same time, so this is not an issue that needs to be accounted for). Also, it should be said that in an ideal democracy there is no need to actually attempt to balance any sort of expansion from one ethnicity.  There is absolutely no reason for a certain group being favored over others without considerations of political bases and the changing tides of support for any given party.   While things are admittedly a little bit different insofar as there are different literal races (species) at stake here, I can still not entirely say that Jane’s perspective is justified for the above reason of faulty math, but also for reasons of a lack of certainty that troll majority would actually cause any negative shift in the quality or peace of life in their false paradise planet. I must actually praise Hussie for making her case vaguely plausible to those who are knowledgeable enough about how ethnography works, the political concerns embedded in it, and the potential destruction of a species if certain criteria are met, though (see Neanderthal vs. Homo sapiens sapiens [as mentioned last post], wherein the poor birth rate of the former was one of the causes that resulted resulted in their extinction outside of the latter’s hybridization-altered genome). This content is very deep and multi-layered, which I love.

I am tempted to make a joke about humans culling trolls to make up for the differences she speculates could occur, but for one that’s effectively what’s happening, and secondly, genocide is not actually funny. Again, people are not limited to a single planet’s occupation, and she is being far too narrow and unimaginative in her point of view.  And we know that there is a very viable space program already underway, so there is absolutely no excuse for a burgeoning politician to not take this into account (particularly since their gods and alchemy could probably together massively increase terraforming rates, even if they don’t find planets that are already inhabitable).

Sounds like a problem of not being imaginative enough with government solutions to me. :Y (Also, those numbers are ridiculous, and even if there were proper pieces of data to back them up, I’m sure they would be hyperbolic.)

[theorynexus]

107:  Fairness and Clownish Consideration

My apologies for my lack of posts over the course of the last week or so. I have been somewhat distracted and afflicted with a lack of sleep.

Jane is making a reasonable point, here. Unfortunately, however, while it is somewhat well-reasoned in general, this does not mean that it is in fact correct to say that her political goals would in fact have led to equity between species. The simple problem is that when dealing with numerous races with a variety of sapient races, each with different natural averages and tendencies in their levels of endowment, attempting to create any level of equity by legally gauging and reflecting these races’ present capabilities and potential in one’s political system is something at the very least nearing impossibility: it is a fool’s errand. This is particularly the case when dealing with political actors who have a sense of chauvinism toward their own species (even if this is subconscious), but even moreso when one considers the fact that most such judgments will occur with what is perhaps a nearly inevitable static world view--- which is to say: given that it is impossible to perfectly gauge the realities of the future in each given population, unfortunate assumptions will often be made that the reality at present for each group will remain the case into the future, as if one population or another is naturally less intelligent where they might simply be lacking in education, or naturally more violent/criminal where they might for example simply be more desperate on average due to systemic poverty. The situation between humans, trolls, consorts, and carapacians is made worse by the fact that they each (at present) have different birth rates and lifespans. If we are being realistic/historical, it must be emphasized that some level of concern over the incredible generational turnover in the consorts’ population would be a natural instinct in any politicians that presided over a world government--- after all, a group of dramatically short lived people whose population numbers might naturally be expected to balloon to unsustainable levels might be expected to have a very short-sighted political behavior. Some might even say this has been demonstrated over the course of the plot.  Personally, given the reality of this, I might be willing to understand some sort of short-term political restriction and population control over this group, given the fact that it might otherwise cause a great deal of damage to the planet which even alchemically crafted wonder machines might struggle to resolve; however, I must emphasize the absolute necessity of this being a temporary measure. Every effort of the world government (or the gods responsible for their transplantation on the new planet, if we are being imminently fair, given they should have a much greater sense of responsibility over their world than they actually show) should be directed to attempting to improve the conditions of this species and bringing about greater stability in them--- particularly perhaps through the same sort of genetic engineering that the carapacians’ population was modified with for the sake of the war effort during the Session.  If some sort of longer life span for these individuals might be achieved, it would likely be better for all people involved. On the other side of the incredibly difficult political situation, we face the trolls, which have longer lifespan, greater physical characteristics than humans, a history of being genetically and culturally manipulated already, and at present a very restricted level of reproductive autonomy due to historically understandable factors: namely the incapacity of their race to naturally reproduce in concert with the natural tendency of governments with any degree of modern standards of power and development to regulate any major social force to some extent or another.  Now, the Homo sapiens sapiens population may have some degree of personal bias toward self-preservation in light of short-term historical memory--- which is to say, they may unreasonably source some level of fear and desire to control the trolls based on their knowledge of them as a conquering race that proliferated over a very wide span of stars ---however, basing political action on this memory is rather foolish.  If we are, again, being realistic, the only real fear that should be had on the part of the humans should be taken into account on the basis of the history of the Homo s. s. population’s domination and subsuming of the genetic population of Homo neanderthalensis. This was likely a direct result of different rates of population growth and genetic diversity.  Any political action justifying restriction of trolls ought to be considered on those grounds.   However, the solution seems to me not to be to restrict the natural processes of the trolls’ reproduction. If anything, humans should simply genetically engineer longer lives in their own population and use alchemy to overcome any shortcomings in physical capabilties. The whole issue becomes even more farcical when one considers the fact that alchemy and space travel together prevent any sort of resource or population divergence from being anything but a short term issue.  I could talk about M. Grub vs. pair reproduction causing different ways of human beings vs. troll populations being apt to take to the stars in the distant future, but this is not something I have time for right now. All I’m saying is that humans and trolls at least should be given a completely even hand in politics.   Others they share the planet with at least ought to be built up toward that point.   Maybe equal representation for each species might help things, rather than trying to model things based on population?   Hard to say.  Argh... have to go.

[theorynexus]

106:   Further Clarification on World Building

Intriguing. I do believe there was some implication that such measures were indeed already in place (presumably as a matter of practicality relating to ectobiology and the fact that it was the only means of troll reproduction before this point), and Jane was “merely” intending to push them to greater extremes than had ever been present before as a means of ensuring control over the population; whereby she might ensure she would be able to stymy any opposition to her future election and shore up her base (because demographics are highly important to a modern electoral system).   It is nice to be reminded of this fact, however, and to receive further clarification about the poliical state of affairs in the Candy version of the world, given politics was such an important topic in the Meat side of things. (Mind you, by the way, I do believe that being inflexible with regard to changing policy when such a sea change in the physical reality of how population propagation might occur goes into play is rather foolish, and likely will generate a major shift in administrations in the future as troll enmity toward the current regime builds up, but that is a matter of speculation, rather than hard fact.) I do wonder what such population control measures mean in practice, now that the Mother Grub is up and running.  Are troll parents no longer able to obtain pseudo-designer children (meaning: they were able to ensure that they got their own offspring for the first time via ectobiology; not to mention trolls didn’t, themselves, actually have parenting behavior before this world, at least commonly), instead being restricted to only getting children via limited mother grub mixing, now?  Are babies (grubs) being culled if too many are born?  These things matter quite a bit in determining how bad the “crimes against humanity” aspect of things is, here.

Is that some sort of weird sex joke? Moreover:  I wonder if Jane knows Gamzee is okay with these sorts of discussions, or if she’s just being culturally insensitive.  Hard to tell, given how much of a weird bit of shenanigans went on with the time skip and Gamzee even insinuating himself into her life in the first place.     (Is this just for a reference to him being her guide in the Game Over timeline?  Man, Jake must have been super upset about all of this, at least at first.)

To be fair, I would just like to point out the irony of him being accusatory toward her while utilizing that very word: subjugglating.  It points out that troll history (honestly true to some extent on Beforus as well, but much moreso on Alternia) is absolutely rife with exactly this type of political subjugation, and far worse. This, I would like to emphasize, does not at all make it okay.  Just a little bit ironic, and awkwardly almost funny as a result.   Despite the fact that the words come from a hate clown, however, the subject is not funny at all. “The Human Man” makes for a very interesting additional comedic undertone, though: it makes Gamzee seem like he is a hippie.

Certainly an interesting and realistic line for a pragmatist to take.  I should also admit that a situation wherein multiple species of humanoid persist on a singular planet creates political considerations which are, puns aside, alien to human political culture on our modern Earth.      I do not believe that such pragmatic issues are in fact a justification for political controls which institute unnatural imbalances in political rights and liberties, however.  This will simply create a deeply ingrained caste system over time, wherein certain types of citizen are considered second [or third] class. Not only will they have less in the way of power to effect political change and properly participate in a democratically-oriented system of government in any non-farcical level, but these lower tiers of citizen will likely be forced into dealing with systemic social and economic oppression, even if there is no initial will to promote such a status quo, simply as a result of the manner in which they are treated on a national/international scale.    In fact, one can already see this sort of unfair treatment’s propagation via the Consort Kingdom’s level of power and the social stereotyping that members thereof face.    Trolls are already at the border of being treated in a similar manner, and while it is good that Crocker was not elected, a status quo result is almost as bad, it would seem.  Status quo means political norms are ingrained, and become difficult ot budge, later on. Sadly, though, I have to go, now.

[theorynexus]

105:  Can a Troubled god Be Soothed?

Yay, Therapy from the Seer who doesn’t have the word in her chum handle! ...

Bloody heckler, despite the title of this post, we’re moving away from that scene!   Very, very true, though.   Businesses (and the heads thereof) definitely do very much need to stay abreast of politics, these days. 

***snickers at the particular phrasing of this, which suggests she’s still coming to terms with being an adult, even though that really shouldn’t be funny***          It just strikes me as hilarious, considering her political and business careers and the sexual relationship/s that she’s presently in, that her mindset is still such that she emphasizes that particular adjective’s importance in her life on a conscious level.  Ahhh, what wonderfully silly things must be explored later on this page~ Sadly, though, I must end things here.  Work beckons, unfortunately.

[theorynexus]

104:   Breath, Family, and Personal Struggles

A very reasonable impulse to follow, even if he doesn’t know consciously the reasons why seeking the advice of someone outside the universe he’s presently inhabiting (and probably his associated metaphysical frame of reference, as far as Relevance goes, consequentially).  Sometimes, one just senses that a certain thing is the right thing to do, without being able to put a finger or a name on the reason why.  Even if he were doing this for the wrong reasons, it is essentially him stumbling on the right thing to do, as such.

It is very interesting to see how pent up and restless he is. Honestly, I wonder exactly how much he can settle down to enjoy a life where order and limitations are being imposed upon him, even by consent, given his Heir of Breath classpect.    To some extent, I suppose embracing a “Married, with Children” lifestyle must to him be like jumping willingly on a golden ship all over again, with immortality and a lack of end goal preventing him from having any foreseeable “out” to release the pressure from being locked into such a status, long-term.   This is not, however, necessarily just to do with any sort of incapacity to settle in a romantic sense, for him.          In a similar way to how Terezi was unable-- certainly according to Dirk, at least --in the Meat timeline to see herself just settling down and living out the rest of her days in Universe C, I believe that John is having a hard time facing a singular, stable lifestyle in the long term.  In fact, I think that her relationship with John (and his Heir Class in particular causing her to be imparted with his Aspect in great amounts via their interaction) is the main reason that Terezi was feeling that way:     after all, this has been one of John’s main struggles as a character from the very beginning.     It’s the main bloody conflict of (especially early) Act 1:   John wants to be able to break away from the stifling experience of being stuck in his house and coddled by an overly-supportive and misunderstood parent.   He’s then, in Acts 2-5, confronted by the happiness and pure freedom that comes from a life of adventure, paired with the loneliness of his missing father.   John goes on to make it essentially his main quest to find and recover his father, above even meeting up with his friends and helping them all survive. This is all to say:   John struggling to come to terms with his joy and appreciation of what it is to have a stable family life is nothing new--- and this is what makes the choice to make this the main conflict of a truly adult John’s story an excellent choice.    Bravo, Andrew Hussie.

[theorynexus]

103:  The Consequences of Choice

Unintentional accusation is unfortunate. One should not raise one’s voice like this if one is not truly angry at the person.   I suppose this is just indicative of how very emotional John is at them moment, though--- and I certainly understand. There’s quite a bit of confusion and uncertainty to be found, here. And the consequences of this matter were quite grave, after all.  Literally life changing, one might say.

I am very glad to see this matter finally discussed!   Come, Roxy!: tell the class about your conversations with Calliope!   Rose, engage your intense calculative and prognosticative prowess to unravel the threads which lay betwixt possibility and results! If only Terezi were here to help~     Heck, I’m surprised John hasn’t talked to her about this already.  May it’s just that he was not emotionally prepared to confront this choice, yet.

It is incredibly interesting how this cosmic paradigm shift psychologically affected the occupants of Earth C.   I do find it somewhat unfortunate that this gives semi-validity to Dirk’s belief that this existence’s very continuity dampens the capacity of individuals within it for true freedom, expression, and [therefore] Relevance, because this makes the split between Meat and Candy less clear cut: in both worlds, free will is sapped by forces not entirely within the control of the world’s population. It’s merely that on the Candy side of the coin, this is a much more subtle force, as of now. That said:  with his clash against the grain of the idyllic shackles of Mind and Void which are swirling about them, perhaps John might aid the group’s actual capacity to fight against these forces, and thus make their world line more important?  It seems to cut against the despair-ridden thematic tones of “Too Much Candy Makes You Sick,” to some extent, but if there is going to be some sort of intermixing between the two sides eventually, as I’m suspecting, some sort of dynamic break will eventually be needed.

As heartwarming as it is to see Roxy telling him to take care of himself, seeing even him dismissing it as “new dad jitters,” very much makes it seem like he’s straining against rubber walls-- making an impression from the inside, deforming the prison, struggling visibly and showing his rebellion, but being pulled back in by the world itself.   It is... honestly very disturbing to see no one engaging with him in this discussion.

Yay, capacity to sense saccharine oversaturation!    More importantly: his checking with Terezi, while some people might believe it to be emotionally unsound (despite the fact that one should be emotionally leaning on one’s friends for support when one is in crisis; albeit I do get the concern that it will cause the development of romantic feelings that John struggles to properly control, especially considering his obliviousness and what happened in the Meat Timeline--- I really do), is at the very least tactically logical: this allows him to get an outside voice’s perspective on things, and more importantly to gather information on what actually happened with Lord English.   If he gets an answer, there, he might be able to properly express his ennui to the others, and to legitimize his position viz a viz Vriska’s indirect role in Lord English’s defeat.

Here’s the emotional/spiritual manifestation of Utopia = Dystopia, again.   At least it is not accompanied by an oppressive regime, as of yet~

Communication in a relationship can be hard.  Her obliviousness, despite her lack of alcohol, continues to be interesting.   I wonder if, beyond the Void seeping in to this world, this has to do with the idea that people and nations can sink into a complacent, almost surreally unaware/complacent state, should the threat of war no longer be present after a long period of struggle.

This is very amusing, playing with different word meanings like this.

No one should feel ashamed for feeling dissatisfied with what others might view as perfection.  This is how ingenuity and technological development comes about, and how humanity’s natural mechanisms ensure that societies do not (optimally) become stagnant and vulnerable to sudden shifts in conditions.  Constant motion and liveliness are needed to keep people sharp, and as a Breath player, he is naturally in tune with this concept.  A lack of responsiveness also naturally goes against the normal effects he has on people as an Air Heir of Breath, as well, so I can understand his frustration at his incapacity to get people to react, here. It goes against his nature, to some extent.

[theorynexus]

102:  Slightly Further Along

Intriguing how long this soundless phase lasts!   But yes, it is indeed mildly weird.  I am surprised that more people haven’t asked.

Honestly, I’d be one to think that this clone-like existence would be all the more reason to not name her the same thing, so that she doesn’t have the pressure of trying to mold her life after that of the original, or live up to her legacy, or whathaveyou.     In human natural life cycles wherein the parent may name the child after themselves, this is slightly more understandable, given the child will likely (though obviously not always) have the parent or grandparent actually in their life, and there will be factors such as the Junior/Senior/Greater/Lesser distinctions to emphasize the differences between each of the parties involved; however, with a clone that does not have the actual memories of the original, this is a bit more difficult to justify. It is also worth noting that not everyone actually finds the “Name your child after yourself or your father/mother” tradition to be a good/acceptable one, even as is.   Regardless, there’s not much more point discussing this, honestly. It is what it is.

Hooray, we have reached the point where my accidental spoilering of myself is no longer an issue!~     That is to say, when I actually read it being confirmed in the story!    More pertinently, it is a shame that the child’s name being said here suggests that John and Roxy are having a bit in the way of communication issues. I suppose it also points to John’s immaturity: as is the case with many new parents, he is nervous about whether he’s doing things right and is actually ready for the prospect of being a parent, I think--- and especially the fact that this sort of ties him into his place as an adult, in John’s case, though it would seem that he’s become more in-tune with adulthood recently than he was at the start of the epilogues.

Awww.  This friendly psychoanalytic behavior is so nostalgic. <3 I do wonder whether Roxy initially wondered why John was interested in some crazy Private Investigator that Jane had fancied some sort of role model in her youth, before John explained the differences in the Alpha/Beta versions of the person.   It would have been so very interesting to read John reacting to his other self’s place on Night Court in the Alpha Timeline, too. What a waste~ That said: I very much do agree with Rose. That torch-bearing is good.

Oh ho ho!  How very intriguing. Clearly, John is somewhat in-tune with his Ultimate Self (or rather, the collective actions of all his other versions, specifically), if he’s making this statement.    Additionally: what an interesting reflection of Void that Rose is making this statement, herself---   though to be fair, she could mean that Vriska was instrumental in the defeat of said villain. The “No One Says Anything” line is quite striking, here. (I do think that it is honestly both admirable and proper, in general, to honor Vriska for her heroics, all things considered, even if it is somewhat iffy to name this particular child after her, by the way.)

The, “Why else would we be here?” line is particularly weird. Rose should know that the consequences of actions detached from the same temporal points of reference take a long time to play out, sometimes, and should not be saying that, as such.

I am not certain if I read him as being entirely upset, so much as passionate, but at the same time, I can see why he would be, all things considered. It’s something very, very important to his wider self, and the sacrifice that he made likely echoes through his entire being. Rose’s sickness at the time and her seemingly miraculous recovery on this side of the split certainly do realistically make for a good set of circumstances to see her discount her past feelings of the importance of said events and/or choice, though, if I am being honest.  I don’t entirely blame this Rose for discounting things in this way.  It’s just weird for her to just assume that Vriska must have beaten LE, regardless.

[theorynexus]

I believe the reason John feels guilty is because he is having an emotional affair with Terezi. If you don’t know what it is look it up. It’s textbook situation

I recognize what you are saying, but consider this:  One cannot actually control one’s feelings, and John has not actually taken any sort of romantic action toward her.  I am not the sort to suggest someone is doing anything wrong without any active deviance on their part, and as such, while I suspected that this was what was intended with the writing, it would have felt as if I were accusing Egbert to have framed the discussion of his feelings in that light. While he is certainly getting close to a point of betrayal, and feels a sense of guilt for the protective/secretive behavior, there is, as of yet, not necessarily anything *wrong* with John’s behavior--- more stupid, because it hasn’t crossed the line into actual romantic behavior, on his part (though Terezi may have flirted with him a little bit, with her comment about what sort of partner she was looking for, whether intentionally or unintentionally).  He should certainly talk to Roxy about it, and the weird feelings that he’s having.  I’m sure she’d be able to help. Regardless, I do very much appreciate the message, Anon.  Thank you for the attempt to help, and the opportunity that this gives me to clarify my understanding and stance on the matter. (Also:  Aaarrrgh, this is going to be so painful, once we reach the point that Terezi was at, just before she met Meat!John at the edge of the Green Sun Black Hole’s influence.  She was clearly feeling attraction for him for a long time, after the presumably hundreds of years that she will have been corresponding with him, by that point.   [She expected him to be significantly older-looking, and whatnot, and said she’d wasted most of her life on the search for Vriska, if I remember the wording correctly, which necessitates that sort of length.])