The fact that Hector's epithet is “with the shining helm” and his helmet is such a huge part of his identity because he is first and foremost a warrior and then when he goes to see his wife and child, his son is so scared of the helmet that he starts crying and Hector takes off the helmet and lays it in the dirt so he can hold his kid? That’s evil. Homer was evil for that
i love translators’ notes. i love seeing a little footnote that’s like “compare my good and grass-touching translation to the STUPID translations of smith and johnson, who rendered the passage ‘xyz’ because their heads are so far up their ass they’re giving ouroboroses body dysmorphia” or “this sentence isn’t translated very well, but that’s because the author wasn’t making any FUCKING sense”
the alternative ending nolan crafted for his 2026 adaptation of "the odyssey" genuinely summarises everything wrong with this movie's characterisation of odysseus.
because no, not in a million years, would odysseus "i yell my name and home address to the beast i blinded out of pride so he knows who tf i am." of ithaca, mr. "killed 108 men cock out" and "the reason for the fall of troy" just decide that finally, after he got home to his throne 20 years later to go "you know what man i am lowkey tired as hell from this i am old and weak and fragile let my chud son be king"
he simply would not do that he is soo prideful and selfish to do that.
and that’s the problem, the movie tries its best to not show odysseus as immoral or selfish or prideful, for some reason. it’s too scared to show you the real king of ithaca, and at that point, why make an adaptation at all?
it turned one of the most interesting and complex greek heroes, who is characterised with traits usually associated with villains and cowards in ancient myths, into just some guy.
atheistic representations of the iliad/odyssey are soooo boring. show me diomedes chucking a spear at aphrodite. where is athena giving odysseus an extreme makeover. give me achilles sopping wet full armor fighting a river god
love how everything in the aeneid is the most fucked up version of itself it could possibly be. pius aeneas is devoted to the point of self-destruction. venus as genetrix loves her son so much that she's willing to send a fake version of his son to drug a woman into falling in love with him. hector in his role as protector of troy only appears in the bloody and raw state of a mutilated corpse. trees bleed and ships turn into nymphs. this poem is a nightmare
nausicaa is such an underrated character. procrastinates doing her laundry. the goddess athena appears to her to tell her to do her laundry. she plays sports. she is the only one to not be afraid of a terrifying desperate naked man approaching her and her friends. tells her friends off for being scared of him. gives him her home address and invites him to her house. thinks he’s hot. has no idea who he is. watches him destroy everyone at discus. finds out he’s a celebrity that people sing about in her court. finds out also that he’s married with a wife and son and is like ohhhh okay let’s do everything possible to help you get home! doesn’t think twice. moves on instantly. unbothered. loving life. she’s everything 2 me
and my take today is that framing misogynistic writing as an "inability to write female characters" subconsciously takes away most of the blame, implying that women are an alien creature compared to men and that it is no fault of the writer because it's out of their skill set. it's not an inability, not a lack of expertise, it's the simple refusal to consider women as individual people and give them the same depth and grace that comes easily to the writer when they write male characters. it's not that christopher nolan, stephen king, james cameron (and frankly anyone using the argument, both professional and hobbyist; yes, that includes fanfic writers) etc can't write women, it's that they just won't. at that point in time it is a conscious decision driven by the laziness to unpack their misogynistic biases, and should be addressed as such
The Catalogue of Ships in the Iliad is, to a modern audiences, what classicists have called “boring as hell,” but I can’t help but think that if you were watching Homer recite it it would have been more like when comedians go, “anybody here tonight from Chicago?” and the Chicagoans in the back start cheering
Homer’s like, “and there were forty black ships from… LOCRIS” and the Locrians in the crowd start going absolutely nuts
i know i said i did not want to talk about the nolan odyssey but i do have one more nodyssey post in me. i actually think the idea of odysseus understanding his story as existing both in and out of a historic timeframe is a fun way to handle the liminality caused by the story being part of an extensive oral tradition. however having him say "our age of bronze is collapsing" is perhaps not the way i would have done that
Just curious but where does the star on cheek motif come from in Ancient Greece? It’s beautiful but I don’t know what it’s called so I can’t google it effectively and ‘star on cheek ancient Greece’ did not net me much. If you have any resources on this I would love to read them!
I'm not sure if there's an actual term for it, but the main (and perhaps only) point of reference that everyone seems to use is this painted plaster head of a woman from Mycenae c. 12th century BCE (National Archaeological Museum Athens inv. 4575). it's a unique and pretty unusual object for the period, but apparently there are a couple of other (less well-preserved or less impressive) examples of women's faces depicted with these red suns/stars/rosettes on their cheeks and chins in Mycenaean art. there's some thought that it might be a representation of some sort of makeup worn by real women in late Bronze Age Mycenae, potentially royalty and/or priestesses in official ritual contexts. alternatively it could be an artistic marker of divinity or non-human status with absolutely no relation to women's appearances in real life, since this head may have belonged to a statue of a goddess or a sphinx. we do have a decent number of Mycenaean wall painting fragments depicting female figures, and I don't believe any of them have these markings on their faces-- the trend of depicting mythic or historical Bronze Age Greek women like this really does seem to all come back to this one object.
Hey, jumping in to add some resources - during my archaeology degree I focused specifically on Late Bronze Age (LBA) Aegean dress & adornment, so while I'm not at all an expert I've got a pretty good grasp of current research.
Answering the first question, the term you're looking for is 'rosette', or more specifically - depending on the academic - 'dot-rosette'. This was a common LBA iconographic motif in the Near East & Aegean, depicted on a variety of materials; from ceramics to textiles, architecture, metalwork, jewellery, stone carving, etc etc. These depictions could be simple & stylised, more realistic/flower-like, or even quite sophisticated and complex - the dot style seen on NAM.4575 (the plaster head that OP linked & pictured above) being on the simpler, more stylised side.
It, as OP pointed out, is a very singular object for the LBA. Not only is NAM.4575 a large scale three dimensional human figure, but it has so much surviving pigment!! As per gendered iconographic norms (e.g. skin colour) for the LBA Aegean it clearly depicts a female, however there is debate over the specifics depicted. Is she real or divine, human or mystical? It certainly comes from religious context, excavated in the Cult Centre of Mycenae, and the headdress she wears (known as a Polos) has strong links to ritual practice. Worn by (likely) goddesses, mortal figures of high religious or social significance (e.g. priestesses), as well as sphinxes (but not exclusively! older scholarship skewed towards majority sphinxes but our understanding of Poloi wearers has improved over time and tbh there are more occurrences of being worn by human/human-like divinities than by a sphinx). This led to the initial identification of NAM.4575 as a sphinx, however more recent consensus in scholarship interprets her (IMO more correctly) as a goddess or mortal woman of high ritual/social status. Either way, wherever she falls on the mortal/divine divide, it is clear NAM.4575's facial markings hold some form of ritual function for high status women.
However, as mentioned briefly by OP, she is not the sole depiction of facial rosettes from the archaeological record - similar markings *do* appear occasionally elsewhere.
Brief Overview of Rosette facial markings within the archaeological material:
Earlier examples of painted facial rosettes (as well as so many other simple designs) can be seen on some Early Cycladic Figures, such as this EC II marble female head from Keros pictured below on the left, displayed at the Karlsruhe Badisches Landesmuseum (inv.70/550). While the condition of the figure's pigment has deteriorated, traces of pigment on the cheeks and chin in a dot-rosette pattern can still be seen.
More contemporary with NAM.4575 both in time (LBA) and location (found within the Mycenae Cult Center complex) is MM.294, a LH IIIB2 ceramic female figurine. As can clearly be seen in the middle picture below (taken by me at the Archaeological Museum of Mycenae) two facial dot-rosettes are detailed, with one on each cheek. They are less sophisticated then those seen on the plaster head, unsurprising with the differences in material and quality between the two artefacts. Other body markings are also present.
Another LBA dot-rosette example can be seen on CMS II 052, a LM I hematite seal stone now located in the Archaeological Museum of Heraklion. While not depicted explicitly on a human face, the seal consists of 4 'floating' objects isolated from any background - an eye, ear, and two dot-rosettes. CMS II 052 (pictured below right) therefore provides evidence of an explicit association of dot-rosettes with other human facial features.
With the explicit proviso I have yet to find scholarly discussion regarding a link to facial markings specifically (unsurprising with how extremely niche of a subtopic this is), through my own research I've found some fragmentary examples of apparent facial dot-rosette markings on phi Φ type figurines. As currently for many phi Φ types no comprehensive pigment analysis exists, or if undertaken most technical reports are not publicly available, so my interpretation of painted facial markings cannot at this stage be definitively confirmed. This identification is instead based solely on visual surveying of available material, with some examples seemingly depicting dot-rosette facial markings that have degraded due to pigment loss over time. One such example is below, a LH III phi Φ type grave good from Tanagra, now displayed in the Archaeological Museum of Thebes (where this picture was taken, by me). On the figurine's left cheek two dots are visible, potentially once part of a larger dot-rosette motif (especially considering pigment loss is evident elsewhere on the figure).
Facial Markings more generally in the archaeological record:
Looking not *just* at dot-rosettes but more broadly at the practice of facial markings in the LBA Aegean there is a greater body of evidence. They appear within a larger variety of contexts, depicted on votive offerings, grave goods, religious objects, and as artistic imagery within high status urban complexes, domestic spaces, peak sanctuaries, and even rock shelters. Notably, while many of these depictions may hold ritual purposes they are represented not just on goddesses but also on explicitly confirmed non-divine women (in fact, I'd argue the majority are mortal rather than divine). This suggests that facial markings were practised by real LBA women in the Aegean, albeit likely not as common, everyday practice for majority of the population. At current, there is no absolute consensus on whether this was achieved by temporary cosmetics (most likely?), tattooing, scarification, or some other method with a variety of generally simple geometric designs depicted within the archaeological record.
The simplest design of facial markings - red, blush-like circular blobs on the cheeks - can be seen on multiple frescoes, see below pictured examples of women within the House of the Ladies Fresco from LBA Akrotiri, Thera; as well as another female plaster head from Mycenae, the smaller and more damaged NAM.7712 pictured below right.
Simple cheek circle markings are also represented on other figurines such as ceramic head AMH.Π1102 from Agious Antonios (pictured below left & centre), or on this stunning clay woman's head found at the Pisokephalo peak sanctuary, with a very distinct red pigmented mark on her left cheek (pictured below right, taken by me at the Archaeological Museum of Heraklion)
Diamond facial marks also occurred, evident on a few terracotta Mycenaean figures, MM.320 (left) and MM.1552 (right), both images taken at the Archaeology Museum of Mycenae by me
A favourite of mine from Agia Triada, the fragmentary AHM.Π3085 shows unique fragmentary forehead marks of concentric semi or full circles. (below left taken by me at the Archaeological Museum of Heraklion)
Appearing significantly more frequently are depictions of (painted?) red ears, for example seen in the West House Priestess Fresco from Akrotiri (below right taken by me at the Prehistoric Museum of Thira)
The above examples of facial markings designs are not exhaustive, but with many of the remaining extant designs being unique and/or in poor condition I've tried to only discuss those that are of most relevance.
Of these examples, majority come from secure religious contexts and while some could potentially depict divinity, many can also be ruled out as not depicting goddesses at all - but rather real women. While most likely these would be high ranking priestesses, worshippers, holders of some other specific ritual function, or otherwise high status individuals (rather than the average woman) it is clear that some form of cosmetic facial marks were practised by some LBA women. The rarity of depictions likely means these markings held a specific ritual or social meaning no longer evident today. Regarding rosettes specifically, it was a much more widespread motif in textiles, art, architecture, and jewellery then depicted as a facial marking, however several examples *do* exist - with NAM.4575 being the most spectacular and well known.
For more in depth discussion and research on rosettes and/or facial markings within the LBA Aegean I've listed a few articles in the readmore below. I've tried to only add ones that are freely available online, but for the ones that aren't feel free to dm for pdf copies. All imagery not taken by me are from publicly available sources (wikimedia commons, the Arachne CMS database, open access publications, and online museum digital collections)
Further reading:
Blakolmer, H. 2012 ‘Body Marks and Textile Ornaments in Aegean Iconography: Their Meaning and Symbolism’ in KOSMOS ed. Nosh and Laffineur.
Earle, J. 2012 ‘Cosmetics and Cult Practices in the Bronze Age Aegean? A Case Study of Women with Red Ears’ in KOSMOS ed. Nosh and Laffineur.
Nicolakaki-Kentrou, M. 2007 'Artists exchanging vocabularies: the dot-rosette motif on ceramics and textiles of the 2nd millennium BC in Egypt and the Aegean' in Mediterranean Crossroads. ed. Antoniaou and Pace.
Palaiologu, H. 2015 'A Female Painted Plaster Figure from Mycenae' in Mycenaean Wall Painting in Context. New Discoveries, Old Finds Reconsidered. ed. Brecoulaki, Davis, and Stoker.
Rehak, P. 2005 'The 'Sphinx' Head from the Cult Center at Mycenae'. British Archaeological Reports.
i thought the “this is the face that launched a thousand ships, although now it would maybe be five-hundred.” line was just an internet joke but apparently that's a line Menelaus actually says in Nolan's Odyssey??
Not only that the language itself sounds straight out of a marvel forcibly funny haha moment, but Menelaus? The Menelaus who all thoughout human history, from Homer, to Sappho, to Euripides, to Virgil, to Shakespeare, to Brooke, to Barth; from Classical vases to Medieval poetry to Reinessance art, has been known as the man whose sword fell from his hands at the sight of his wife after 10 years apart?
"What joy for me to hold my wife" Menelaus?
"He flung the sword away, and kissed her feet" Menelaus?
"I believe all. I understand nothing. I love you" Menelaus?
"I have no fault to find; my wife, he daughter of Zeus and Leda, is mine again, she whom her brothers on their snow-white steeds, whilst torches blazed, made my happy bride, but gods removed her from my home." Menelaus?
The Menelaus who was picked out of the suitors by Helen herself? The Menelaus who couldn't kill a begging Trojan so his brother had to do it for him? The Menelaus who rescued Odysseus and got out Patroclus' body? The Menelaus who volounteered to fight Paris one on one so everybody could go home? Who kept expressing his guilt about himself being the cause of war through every assembly he spoke at in the Iliad? Who after 10 years away at Troy, took his wife through a 7-year long journey at sea back home, where he reinstated her as the queen of Sparta? Who wept like a child in front of Telemachus recalling the war and his brother and all the friends he lost and the only consolation being his wife' gentle hand on his?
You want me to believe that man scarred Helen's face and called her only worth half the ships because of it?
I'm actually physically sick just thinking about it.
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