'AFAB Privilege'
*incorrect buzzer*
This is Feminism 101. If people deemed female at birth had privilege we wouldn't need feminism.
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@trans-stuff
'AFAB Privilege'
*incorrect buzzer*
This is Feminism 101. If people deemed female at birth had privilege we wouldn't need feminism.
thinking about how the whole "trans men literally can't experience misogyny bc men can't experience misogyny" thing has done fucking catastrophic harm to feminism as a movement in recent years
like not only does it harm trans men & a lot of other transmascs by just outright denying a major form of oppression we experience and framing us as somehow on equal footing to cis men socio-politically- silencing us on multiple levels and making it genuinely impossible to get certain issues addressed- but I quite literally mean it does a fucking wild amount of damage to feminist theory and the movement as a whole, too.
the whole idea behind it is to basically decouple oppression from lived experiences, isolate individual forms of oppression, and instead ascribe all oppression to stratified individual identities. it's like, advanced victim blaming + systemic gaslighting + systemic isolation.
I have seen self-described feminists enact the most basic, lame-ass, run-of-the-mill misogyny against trans men/transmascs and just, like, deny it could possibly be misogyny because the target isn't a woman. shit Buzzfeed was putting out milquetoast articles about in 2014.
the effect of this is that people just stop considering certain aspects of misogyny to be part of the system of misogyny. if it's not misogyny when it's not done to a woman, issues like bodyshaming and rape culture- widely understood to be society-wide cultural and systemic problems that needed to be fought in order to make progress for feminism ten years ago- are whittled down into just a couple of flavors of "being mean to women".
which means feminism ceases to be a movement about addressing society-wide cultural and systemic problems that hinge on patriarchal views of women, and impact society as a whole... and becomes instead a movement about Not Being Mean To Women.
I'm just going to grab this addition from another thread because it's also super important.
Look I'll be real as an Old Dude who is pretty repelled by the turns feminism and discussions of queerness and gender have taken over the last 20 years: a lot of this is driven by the idea that we have some immutable Gender Essence which either corresponds to our body or doesn't and may or may not be correctly guessed at birth by the people around us. Which is like... Gender essentialism, but for the soul or some weird shit, whereby I have Always Been A Man even for the more than two decades that I did not know trans men existed (don't grow up in small towns in the 1980s, y'all) and even for the couple of decades after that when I assumed that of course I hated my body, all women hate their bodies under patriarchy!
Alas, the world does not respond to some secret Gender Essence, it responds to the body it sees before it and tries to beat the occupant into compliance with Acceptable Gender Roles according to the secondary sex characteristics you get stuck with, which meant I spent 44 years trying to woman in varying ways, getting beaten down when I did it in the ways that made me most comfortable, which is to say the most butch ways, and also getting infantilized and paid less and told at any moment a desperate longing to be pregnant would overcome me.
And now I can go stealth if I need to and I finally don't loathe my body because it turns out the problem wasn't too many airbrushed magazine ads (look I told you I'm old) but goddamned dysphoria. And to add insult to the 44 years of devastating, disabling depression, people keep coming along and telling me I *never* experienced misogyny and I was *never* a woman and I need them to go tell it to their therapist if me naming my experience makes them uncomfortable but *I know who I was for all those years and I know what I experienced*.
What's also fun in that "how much more remote can I get before I totally divest from society" way is that I do not know a single cis woman, not even the ones who care about me, who will refer to me as a man unless she's either trying to invalidate my experiences or shut me up. Isn't that a mind fuck?
Shit’s really getting to the point where it’s obvious certain people don’t think of trans men as an oppressed minority.
That fucking Elvis gimmick blog? Being asked “what do you think about trans men”?
People are fucking eating up the response about how trans men should shut up.
And for the people who are eating that up, I just want to grab them by the shoulders and shake them and scream, “YOU WOULD NOT SAY THAT ABOUT OTHER OPPRESSED GROUPS FUCKING STOP DOING THIS!”
Because like. I’m not saying there’s no one out there who would say another oppressed group needs to shut up. Because of course there are people who do that to all sorts of oppressed groups.
But the thing is, the people who are eating this particular instance up are people who claim to care about minorities who face oppression. They’re not people gleefully going around saying, “oppression isn’t real you’re all snowflakes.” They’re people who exist in social justice spaces, who at least claim to care about oppressed minorities and who do actually elevate other minorities speaking on their oppression.
They’ve just decided that trans men don’t count.
went over to the blog. a whole lot of “well if a cis woman said this about a cis man, nobody would—”
here's a groundbreaking idea. what if we all pretended like trans men are a real group of people who experience disproportionatal violence and systemic oppression due to their gender, and not like an embodied hypothetical.
i don't know why "trans people are not cis people" is such a controversial statement. & frankly it's giving "harassing hetero asexuals isn't acephobic, i'm allowed to hate straight people!!!" its this coy willful ignorance, pretending like you couldn't possibly guess what's got people so upset, actively ignoring the increasingly obvious genuine bigotry that's been allowed to flourish and acting like people who use slurs for the queers you hate have nothing to do with you and/or they were just joking/venting guys ugh!!!!
saying "hey now, theyfab isn't a very nice word :(" does not negate the fact that on your popular blog you started shit talking trans men and immediately people felt safe to start using slurs in your inbox while agreeing with you. it's almost like there's a widespread community problem that you are contributing to!
Sex based oppression does exist right? It's not the only kind of oppression because gender based oppression also exists of course, but people with an F on their documents are oppressed for it, right? It's used to oppress them?
It would also make sense that trans women with an M on their documents would also be oppressed for this, because they can be refused healthcare and services because of it. I feel like I'm going crazy. Sex is an oppressive force, intersex people alone are oppressed by the concept of sex, right?
The unfortunaty reality here is radfems and TERFS have obscured the narrative so hard and in such a bigoted direction that it's difficult to talk about this, but yes, oppression and bigotry on the basis of sex (sexism) does exist. The problem is radfems don't include trans women in the category of people who are impacted by sexism and are violent, fear mongering, bioessentialist bigots about it. I think it's actually very easy to include trans women in those conversations. On account of the fact that they are women, and also struggle with oppression and discrimination on the basis of their sex (regardless of what sex they identify with).
Your example of trans women being discriminated against for having an M on their legal documentation is in fact, an example of transmisogynist sexism. People being discriminated against because they have an F on their documentation (regardless of if they are a cis woman, trans woman, trans man without a sex marker change, or are nonbinary) is sexism. A lot of intersexism and intersex targeted bigotry also intersects more broadly with sexism.
Sex is an institutional, legal category that is used to harm people. The fact that we have the categories of "assigned sex" and "legal sex" should already tell anyone as much.
I'd be more willing to hear people out regarding a denial of sex motivated oppression if we didn't have an entire governmental system of categorization that legally requires doctors to do invasive surgery on infants, legally requires trans people to go through hours of therapy, expensive surgeries, and potentially sterilization just to get a letter on a legal document changed (if at all, depending on where you live or where you were born!), and deemed anyone with a specific letter attached to their legal documentation to be a second class citizen under an oppressive hierarchy (again, very much actively including trans women).
Have a god-awful 4th of July. Each and every single one of you.
Hey now. 4th of July is an American holiday and only one day a year. Transandrophobes should have a godawful entire year no matter what country they’re in. Just saying.
It really is wild to me that there is a whole niche group of trans people who actually call themselves feminists who wholeheartedly believe that being a transgender person who was given the sex assignment of female at the time of their birth is a seriously privileged position to hold within our current society.
That being a transgender person. Of a systemically marginalized sex assignment. Is somehow systemically privileged within our current society.
It truly baffles me.
___________________________________
READING COMPREHENSION CHECK:
1. Define the terms "systemic" and "systemically".
2. What does it mean when OP says "our current society"? Draw upon your knowledge of recent global political events regarding the increased control of all bodies within the global population across multiple world governments.
3. Define the term "privilege". What does it mean when OP uses the term "systemically" to refer to being privileged in our current society?
4. Based on your definitions of "systemic", "systemically", and "privilege" in questions 1 and 3, as well as your other answers to questions 2 and 3, what does OP mean when it says that people who were assigned female at birth are systemically oppressed, and refers to the sex assignment of "female" as being a "systemically marginalized sex assignment"?
5. How is OP's post rhetorically engaging with the concept of the assignment of one's sex at birth? What does it mean when OP refers to the assigning of sex as if it were act that happened to someone in the past tense?
6. Since OP views the assignment of sex as an act that happened to someone in the past, do you think OP personally views sex as a static and immutable state of being — like how the state would define it — or as a socially constructed state of being that is impacted both by natural, human variations of the body and by medical intervention (both consensual and nonconsensual)?
7. Based on your answer to question 5, how do you think OP would realistically describe the sex of transgender people on an individual level? Would OP personally describe them with the terminology of their assigned sex or use whatever terminology an individual feels is right for them based on their personal experiences with their sex and gender?
8. Based on all previous answers, does OP referring to those who were assigned female at birth as being part of a systemically marginalized sex class at the hands of the state bar the inclusion of trans women and trans feminine people in the systemically marginalized sex class of "female"? Why does it not do so, at all?
For a bonus point: Are ALL transgender people oppressed on the basis of their gender identities? (I'll even give you this one for free, the answer is YES)
For an additional bonus point: Define both "feminism" and "transfeminism" without being a radfem about it. You have unlimited time.
Ok, so not even getting into everything insane about the whole 'forcemasc is a mockery of forcefem 'thing, I just want to address something, using this post, which i think is an interesting example.
So, clearly, this creator is speaking largely about the trans community when referring to the 'queer community', (mentioning t4t, forcemasc/forcefem, and gender affirmation).
Now, this idea that everything in the trans community came from transfems and trans women is pretty popular, and based in the fact that the majority of openly trans people, trans communities, trans people in activism, for much of recorded history were/made up of transfems.
What i struggle with, is the fact that someone can argue 'most openly trans people were transfeminine people', and also not acknowledge that this was... not transmascs choice?
I mean typically speaking, you can't argue 'majority of [community] was defined by, spearheaded by and revolved around [half of community]' and that theres a problem with the less represented, more history wiped, less common [half of the community] building stuff for themselves.
Its... not transmascs fault that they haven't been able to popularise any terms, make their own communities, be present in campaigning, explore their kinks, and set their boundaries until pretty recently*.
You do know thats not their fault right?
I mean transmascs have only recently been able to be openly out at the same 1:1 ratio as transfems*, is it really a surprise that their language developed later, and may be seen to be 'copied' off transfems?
We should be studying the reasons why transmasculine people appear to be one of the most stunted groups in the queer community at having their own spaces, terms, even medical care and representation in the public.
Not blaming them for it.
**Worth noting that this is Western focused. In the rest of the world transmascs still have not reached even close to a 1:1 ratio and still the majority of trans communities outside of the west do not include transmascs/are extremely heavily transfem
Hey so I've heard you're the one who's coined transandrophobia and I wanted to properly get it from the main source- what is an exact and specific definition of the theory and all it entails? I recently wrote a piece on it because of a specific source and the ways I feel it failed to understand the root of oppression- however it was not by you and therefore is more likely to have been a bastardization or a flawed version of it. I want to know what the original theory is so I can better understand things and know if the issue I find is more so due to things people have thrown on top of it overtime.
Feel free to ignore this if you want, absolutely no pressure.
Hello, I am writing a book on the topic, until then, This Post is a rough run down on defining transandrophobia and some examples, I suggest you start there.
Further reading would be This Post (discussing the importance of not harrasing transandrophobic people online, since it does help combat transandrophobia), This Post (Discussing one of the many ways trans men's struggles are dismissed as lesser despite the grave violence we face), This Post (Explaining why waiting for the perfect term to define transmasculine oppression is futile), and This Post (Discussing one of the ways that transandrophobia kills trans men).
I can not, in a single post, provide an "exact and specific definition of the theory and all it entails" for transandrophobia any more than I could provide the "exact and specific definition of the theory and all it entails" for idk Marxism. It is a large and complex topic and tumblr has never been the ideal space to discuss theory due to the social desire for harassment that haunts this site.
But the short of it is "Transandrophobia is a term to describe how the fear of men (androphobia) and gender essentialist politics in certain spaces, queer and non-queer, trans and cis, effects transgender men's lives." The reason this term exists, is to provide trans men with language to discuss this specific and often shared experience of violence and rejection, in the hopes that it will encourage discussion among queer and trans circles along with prompting organization and mutual aid for trans men.
transandrophobia experience + a generally interesting observation. was in a friendgroup of almost entirely cis people. there were two trans people, a transmasc (me) and a transfem. when they started parroting talking points about transmen having Male Privilege and masculinity being evil and yadda yadda you know the drill, theyd always defend it by saying "well the transfem in our friendgroup agrees with us, so its progressive and youre talking over her if you disagree." the whole experience was fascinating because these cis people already had shitty opinions about transmen. they already wanted me to shut up, so they told me i was damaging my own community. they just wanted an excuse to sound progressive while saying it. it should also be noted that the main reason we were all friends was because we were the only queer people in a ruralish community. with the worry of being outed without any support, how the hell were me or the transfem supposed to disagree? while being queer was absolutely not a positive for the cis people, they were more capable of hiding it which led to them having other friends. dropping 1 or 2 people from the group wasnt a big deal to them. me and that other transperson were visibly trans, this was the only friendgroup in that area that we were semi safe in. im not happy she said transandrophobic shit to me, but she was also a victim in having to go along with it for safety. what she said and did gave her no privilege or advantages over me, it just temporarily put her in the good graces of the cis people championing this stuff in our conversations.
writing this cause i feel its important to note that transandrophobia is a largely cis thing. its absolutely important to address intracommunity shit, but we need to be clear of where the source of a lot of this BS comes from. people might want to go along with it because it feels like itll protect them, but transphobia will not stop because youre One Of The Good Ones.
.
just need to share how much I dislike this post lol
people will fully expect trans men to put ourselves on the line for everyone else and meanwhile the only time they acknowledge our existence is to talk about how "low risk" we are (obviously untrue) or to volunteer us out as a community for potentially dangerous activist endeavors that they wouldn't risk doing themselves
"we need to get uncomfortable!" and what's actually being discussed is convincing a subset of the community to be uncomfortable on your behalf while you do nothing to show solidarity with us
#They KNOW the outcome would be those ‘burly bearded men’ being thrown out beaten or arrested right… Like just because Technically we are -#- in the right bathroom doesnt mean we dont get beaten for it anyways.#Its okay tho because it’s not dangerous just ‘uncomfortable’… eyeroll
this is what annoyed me because we know that cis women will stand aside to allow cis men to enter a supposed "female only" space if it means beating up a trans person, regardless of their gender. what do the people advocating for this think is going to happen?
Obligatory reminder:
Noah Ruiz is a Latino trans man who was beaten for using the women's bathroom. Ciel Del-Toro is a disabled trans man who was beaten for using the women's bathroom– his beating was so bad he was left with brain bleeds and chronic headaches. Both of them were attacked after a cis woman became upset with their presence and called on cis men to punish them. Noah Ruiz used the women's bathroom because it was the rule of the business he was at; Ciel Del-Toro did it because he felt safer, and had even announced that he was assigned female before the attack happened. Nex Benedict was beaten in the girls bathroom at school before his death. In a very similar incident, Australian trans boy Onyx John was bashed by cis girls in girl's bathroom before he died by suicide. In chapter 10 of the book Hung Jury, a trans man named Nickolas J. McDaniel recounted his experience being gang-raped by group of cis girls in the locker room, to "teach it [him] to like being a female." And yet, we do not discuss these events. Trans men are only relevant to the conversation when we are burly, hypermasculine, invincible caricatures that can be used as gotchas against transphobes. If A trans man feels comfortable taking on this role, that's his choice. But for the love of all that is holy, can we PLEASE stop throwing around this argument as if many trans men have not had deeply traumatic, disabling, and even fatal experiences in women's (and men's) bathrooms. Or maybe just stop talking about what things you THINK trans men don't experience, if you haven't actually researched the kinds of things that trans men in real life have ALREADY experienced. Many transphobes can actually comprehend trans men very well. They can comprehend the idea of a dyke, which we are and always have been considered. They can comprehend the idea of a tranny with a vagina. But they also don't need to. They don't need to comprehend vermin to try and squash them. Just because they may not have heard of trans men as much, doesn't mean that "dyke trying to be a man" is completely unthreatening to the patriarchy. It's absurd and frankly misogynistic to think that way.
This is yet another example of exclusionism and lateral oppression depending on oppression hierarchies. Whether it's trans women claiming that trans men don't endure anything, gay people claiming that asexuals don't endure anything, physically disabled people claiming that mentally ill people don't endure anything, or literally any other group that is forcibly marginalized within their own marginalized community, this happens not just because of bigotry. This happens because "progressive" spaces have created a system of who matters most depending on how perceivably oppressed somebody is. Until we stop making oppression into a ladder to climb to the top, exclusionism and lateral oppression will continue to happen.
Fuck exclusionists. Fuck the people who don't give a shit about their whole community. And fuck transandrophobes.
wow okay two things
1. not all trans men want to medically transition. some trans men are nonbinary/gender nonconforming/simply dont want to medically transition and just want to or have socially transitioned and they will still experience sexism because they are still perceived by society as women.
2. just because a trans man does transition, a lot of the time he will be perceived as "doing masculinity wrong" by society or he may even be outed or still live in a town where everyone knows what he used to look like before medically transitioning and will therefore still be subjected to sexism because people see him as a failed man/woman.
we do not get the full male experience as soon as we start calling ourselves men. try actually listening to trans men when we discuss our oppression instead of assuming you know our fucking life experiences.
3. some trans men transition, but are not stealth; either because they can't be, or by choice! even in trans-friendly progressive spaces, the vast majority of cis people (and plenty of trans people) still struggle to view trans people as their actual gender.
I could be stealth in a lot of situations if I wanted to be, and I generally choose to be out anyway for a number of reasons (it's safe where I am, it's a big part of my identity, it's a big conversation topic in my circles and I want to talk about it honestly, I work with kids/teens mostly and I want them to have an example of trans hope and joy, etc.)
I am very regularly degendered and treated with weird mixes of bog standard misogyny, transphobia, and unique applications of the two that single out my transmasculinity specifically.
And that's without getting into all the times trans people on tumblr have called me misogynistic gendered insults (cunt, bitch, pussy, hysterical) and used misogynistic gendered stereotypes and arguments against me (emotional, overdramatic, dumb, incapable of autonomy, undeserving of autonomy, infantilization, even just straight up misgendering me & claiming I'm a woman pretending to be a man!)
people don't just automatically see trans people as the gender they are when they come out, or even when they transition! Stealth is a pretty rare and precarious circumstance, and the entire premise is that nobody knows or finds out that you're trans. If people see and treat you like a woman when they find out you're a trans man, that means they see and treat trans men like women.
(Trans people also aren't ever seen as equivalent to the cis versions of either gender! We're forever the worst of whatever gender or non-gender is easiest to hurt us with in a given context. that's transphobia baybee)
I'm a cis passing trans man with disabling PTSD from domestic violence. The abuse was so severe and so traumatic that I'm on social security disability as a result. I've accessed thousands of hours of psychiatric care in order to get as stable as I've become. It's always bonkers to me when I realize that some people who self-identity as feminists do not give half a shit about people who've become pregnant from DV, people who needed an abortion as a teenager, people who were threatened with an x-acto knife when they tried to escape (yes, these are all things that actually happened to me).
Like do y'all care about DV and femicide because abuse, sexual assault, and violence are wholly traumatic to the victim? When I study abuse through a feminist lens I do it so I can better understand common dynamics and vulnerabilities in victims, not so I can be like *Heh. Yes. Men evil, women victim.*
My gender and sexuality were relevant factors to the DV I experienced. The man who pursued me when I was pre-transition and very young knew that I was queer and knew that my family was Catholic. It helped him identify the severe lack of protection and social support I could turn to after he persuaded me to move in with him as a high schooler.
You know, there are these homophobic and transphobic men out there who target cis lesbians and trans masculine people for "corrective rape". There's often a fixation on getting the victim pregnant in an effort to force the victim to live as a heterosexual, cis woman. To "teach them a lesson" or "show them their place". If your feminist lens can't be used to better understand and empathize with queer victims of misogyny (be they men, women, or nonbinary), then well -- gee, I don't like your feminism very much.
I mean this is a pretty hot take but I think until y'all can sit down and actually provide examples of what you mean by "privilege" instead of using the word as a means of referring to the nebulous idea that some people have it better and its Their Fault, there will continue to be absolutely braindead takes about who holds what privilege and how it conflicts with actual first-hand experience.
That's why, when I ask what male privilege I was apparently either born with or received immediately upon coming out, I get crickets.
When we talk about male privilege, we talk about getting paid more. We talk about getting hired more, and into higher-paying jobs more. We talk about being able to vote and drive and have credit cards and bank accounts. We talk about reproductive freedom and body autonomy. We talk about rape statistics, domestic violence, and other forms of violent crime. We talk about immigration and citizenship status and human trafficking. We talk about power dynamics in relationships. We talk about society's expectations for gender roles.
There's two big problems with this:
Unless a trans man is completely binary, fully stealth, and has burned every trace of his past, almost none of this is accessible to him. Trans men don't get paid more unless their gender marker is M, there's no mention of ever being anything but cisgender, and they're completely stealth. They don't get hired more, unless these things are true. Many lived lives being discouraged from chasing higher paying jobs such as STEM fields due to being seen as girls, so they're not going into these jobs more either. Similarly with voting- when I registered to vote I was non-passing, with my legal name and gender marker. To the voting office, I was a woman. To my credit card company, who has never seen my face, I'm *still* a woman, despite passing most of the time. To my bank account, which I've had since I was 8, I've never not been a woman. When I took my driver's test, I was treated as a woman.
When I asked for a hysterectomy at 20, I was told not until I was over 30, had a minimum of two children, or had a husband to sign off on it. Just like a woman. When I whacked my head as a kid and was rushed to the doctor, the doctor specifically said if I was a boy he wouldn't have bothered stitching but a girl can't have scars on her face *while he was stitching my forehead back together*. I had to fight to be allowed to cut my long hair. I had to fight to be allowed to take care of it by myself.
I have needed to leave relationships when I realized I was with a man that would hurt me for his gain. I've been assaulted by my peers for being a black woman or a black girl in a space that I was not wanted.
I was raised with the expectation that I would be a mother to a large family with a husband that kept me pregnant and likely staying at home like a typical tradwife. I was punished, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially for rejecting that life. I lost literally all my social group from before I came out. I lost a good chunk of family members too, and the ones I have left are... trying, but not perfect.
And:
Other marginalized men are also often denied access to these things either. White men might be paid more, but white women make more than men of any other race. White men might be hired more, but "Rachel" is more likely to get a call back than "Rafael". White men are more likely to be in a STEM position, but tell me when the last time you saw a Native doctor. It may have been *legal* for racially marginalized men to vote, but those who did not speak English had no ability to do so until 45 years *after* white women had the right to vote (and technically it took another 10 years for translations to actually be provided). Banks and credit companies and driver's tests and mortgage brokers and more are *known* to discriminate, between barely-legal remnants of redlining to outright illegal discrimination because they know they can get away with it.
Black and Native children are taken from their birth families and placed into foster care and adoptive homes daily due to state-sponsered genocide. It's more than just the mother that's affected by this. Black men are largely targeted by stop-and-frisk policing policies that exist to do nothing except harass and assault them for just existing in a place, and are an extreme body violation.
New studies show that men experience rape and domestic violence at roughly the equivilant rate as women, but reporting is obscenely low due to social pressures and rigid gendering of victim vs abuser policies. The demographic with the highest rate of murder victims is black men.
Single, childless adult men are not allowed to immigrate to multiple countries, including the US, on refugee status. Men of marginalized races- largely latine and asian- are trafficked by largescale construction companies and then deported or abandoned when no longer needed.
Disabled men are killed or abandoned regularly by their able-bodied partners who got tired of dealing with them.
I know more than one man who feels trapped into a place where he cannot, ever, show any emotion besides horny, hungry, or angry as a direct result of strict gender roles being pushed on him. I know more than one man who has tried to take his own life because of it.
I know more than one man who has succeeded.
And I gotta be honest the further I get in transition and the more I pass the more I think that being a man... also kinda sucks. Like it sucked when I was a woman. Doesn't really feel like it sucks less as a man. Seems to me like society treats both of these pretty poorly and I was told the grass was way greener on this side and it's, uh, not. Not really. Not when you start making cis male friends and start realizing that a lot of these guys had a lot of the same experiences you grew up being told was part of a woman's life.
And I'm not saying that these guys don't have interactions where life is better for them because they're men. Of course they do. That's patriarchy for you. But I do think it's difficult to have a "male privilege" argument when people try to argue on a 1-to-1 basis and it just straight up doesn't work like that.
And I know a lot of what I'm saying ties back to the theory of intersectionality, that this can't flatten nuance like this is directly tied to the fact that a white woman, a native woman, an asian woman, a black man, a latino man, and an arabic man, are all going to have WILDLY different experiences that you can't just "well you're [gender] so you don't experience [harm]" about because it's blatantly untrue. Especially if you continue to add marginalizations, like immigration status, religion, sexuality, transition, language, and more.
I'm getting such mixed posts about transandrophobia and transmisogyny on my dash right now, and although its obvious that people on both sides can be quite extreme about it I would still like to make a post asking all people of what you think about it.
I know there are trans women who feel targeted by trans men in often dangerous ways - I am partly in that group,
however I also know there are trans men who feel they are being attacked by trans women.
if you have any thoughts please do discuss - I'm very eager to support my sisters, but I don't want to say anything that is actually wrong or that I'm not completely informed about.
Hey, I'm a trans woman too! Most of my blog is talking about this issue from the perspective of believing transandndrophobia exists and supporting transmascs. I'll try to explain it as I see it.
The Ideological Split
A lot of trans women and trans men both are really invested in the idea that trans men have privilege over trans women because they've come up with the idea that being either a Man or Woman can be objectively proven tangibly true by looking at how society treats us.
If trans women are treated as "Women," by which they mean "bad in a way that has to do with gender," then that must mean they're ~really~ women in a way that they can point to and say "that's why we're women, because it makes the most sense to classify us that way, taxonomically."
The obvious other side of the coin is that for trans men to really be men, they must be treated like "Men." They sincerely think that anyone "moving towards masculinity" gains more social privilege than they had. They are, at worst, given respect that's "begrudging" as though all a woman has ever had to do is declare her pronouns are he/him to escape the patriarchy.
This is even ran with by a lot of transmascs who are super validated by the idea they're such manly men no one would ever reject them and violently try to push them back into the woman box through murder or sexual assault. The false idea that they're accepted by the patriarchy is just as soothing to their dysphoria as the idea that our oppression as transfeminine people makes us objectively "feminine."
This is all inherently radical feminism, like, definitionally. This is obscured by the focus of modern TERFs being increasingly centered around trans issues, but while they are bioessentialist, if you look past the explicit transphobia to examine what they believe about gender, the core of their ideology is that "man" and "woman" are okay to exist as medical terms but that if feminist liberation were fully achieved then it could could be nothing more than that, everyone would just be 'people' outside the context of biology. True "gender" as radfems define it is exactly what I explained above - a taxonomic classification within a patriarchal society, and the enforced expectations that come with it. For this reason they consider themselves gender abolitionists. Whether or not that's true or a consistent bead of logic throughout either their actions or stated beliefs is another matter - that's the belief system of radical feminism, that's the outline of how they profess to view Womanhood and it's relation to Manhood.
I've coined antigonism for transfems who reject all that nonsense, as well as associated nonsense such as intersexism, exorsexism, and the weird thing these radfem-types have with crossdressing cis men where they racistly erase queer subcultures in Japan to act like it's transmisogyny every time a boy wears a dress in anime and continues to use he/him pronouns, as though other forms of feminine expression in people AMAB is just an inferior substitute for trans womanhood. These other issues exist for basically the same reason, the centering of trans Womanhood as the single most oppressed vector of existence it's possible for there to be in all circumstances, which just ten years ago would have sounded immediately obvious to everyone I knew as being how radfems feel about being cis women.
The State of the Discoure
It's real bad.
Trans men are constantly accused of saying stuff that I've never once seen them say. There's accusations of them "degendering themselves" toe wield their AFABness against trans women when they just try and explain they have experience with misogyny. They get accused of having corrective rape kinks against lesbians because the person who coined the word "transandrophobia" was a sex worker who once indulged a transfem client with that kink. Every day popular transfem users with thousands and thousands of followers present the argument as trans men calling trans women bitchy boys pretending to be girls and I have no fucking clue where it's coming from because it isn't the version of reality I live in.
I reblogged someone one time disagreeing with them about the issue and they immediately blocked me. Later that day they started talking about something a million times more controversial and I started getting blamed for it, even though the asks they were getting were about a completely different issue than I extremely briefly engaged them on. I had like, three hundred followers at the time. Ever since then I've been accused of leading harassment campaigns against trans women I don't like and it's like living in the Twilight Zone.
Recently a transfem joked about a bomb to kill transmascs and hundreds of people who hate the idea of transandrophobia immediately began dying on the hill that that was a fine and normal joke for someone to make. Then one dumbass person made the dumbass decision to report it to the FBI, and a lot of transandrophobia people immediately decried that, no one likes the person who did it, but this was painted as the transandrobro community coming together to destroy an innocent angel's life.
Sometimes radfems will try and snake their way into transandrophobia discussion and every single time a horde of transmascs descend on them like locusts and completely pick them apart, but in spite of the fact that they stand up for their trans sisters with a flaming sword, they're victim blamed for the fact that radfems sometimes attempt to take advantage of internal disagreements within the community to present trans women as being abusive to trans men and use it to manipulate them.
Views of what transandrophobia even is are completely distorted to the extent it's really obvious people objecting to it have never read a single thing about it. Those really popular transfem bloggers have posts with thousands of notes characterizing transandrophobia as trying to replace transmisogyny, trying to blame all transphobia on "misandry," and saying that trans women are hated for being men. ALL OF THAT IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE. It is SO OBVIOUSLY untrue.
Every trans man I've ever met who rallies against the concept of transandrophobia is a raging misogynist. Several have admitted to me that they believe trans men have privilege over trans women because they personally used to hate trans women and would take any chance to abuse them. They all have these bizarre attitudes rooted in toxic masculinity that makes them come to close to looking like they downright fetishize the idea of holding power over women and being so much stronger than them. It's disgusting and creepy.
No one actually engages with anyone and it sucks.
IDC what anyone else says, becoming more of a transfeminist has only made me MORE convinced that transmasc people have it hard too. it is one of the axioms of feminism that women are allowed to aspire to the aesthetics of masculinity as long as they never actually achieve it, and for men to aspire to femininity is sacrilege. and you see that in the way media portrays transmasc and transfem characters. Transmasc characters are always trying to be masculine as a front. they talk with deep voices, hang out with "the guys". but they are never allowed to actually achieve it. they can never be muscular. they can never be assertive. they can never have facial hair. They must always be short and soft. Conversely, trans women must NEVER have any hint that they are AMAB. they also cannot have facial hair, or body hair. Their voices must always be high and lilting, but in that way that's immediately clockable so no one could mistake them for a ""real"" woman. they cannot be strong or aggressive or anything even vaguely associated with men. Or, alternatively, if they're transfem nonbinary, they're just gay men with colorful hair, since everybody knows gay men are basically just women already. And of course, masc lesbians aren't real, don't worry straight men. a butch is just what you call a conventionally attractive woman wearing a sports jersey. At the end of the day, queer people of all types are accepted only as long as we can be relegated to the category of "Feminine but weird". That way, none of us can ever be any threat to the sanctity of the Holy Masculine. None of us are men or have anything to do with men. And while we squabble over who has it the worst, the patriarchy lives on.
omfg tboys have such a victim complex. that law is after TRANS WOMEN, not YOU. no trans men are going to go to jail. in fact, trans men are probably going to use this to send trans women to jail or keep them as their rape slaves because they'll just go to the police and tell them that they were forced to have sex with a scary tranny if she doesn't give them what they want. fuck off forever
The current deception as to sex guidance is based partially on the precedent set by the R v McNally case, involving two teenagers. The teenager who had sexual assault charges brought against them was McNally, who went by "Scott" and was assigned female at birth and claimed to be a cis man. The case talks about how McNally wanted a sex change - though the judgement frames McNally as being a cis girl lying about being a cis man, it seems clear that McNally was transmasculine. McNally was found guilty and sentenced to 3 years in a young offenders' institution.
Trans women are particularly at risk from this new guidance, and when I wrote about trans and intersex sex workers being at high risk from this I highlighted ways that trans women specifically will be harmed.
It is bizarre to me that you'd say no trans men would go to prison under this guidance when one being imprisoned is precisely the reason this guidance exists. The people I am most concerned for right now are trans and intersex women who sell sex without disclosing their trans or intersex status and I make no secret of that.
I am also someone who has sold certain kinds of sex with clients believing I'm a twinky cis guy rather than a trans guy, and who has pretended to be a cis woman when I was early on T and kept my transness from clients. This guidance puts me at risk too and I'm going to continue to speak about how trans and intersex people of all genders are targeted by it, no matter how many hate anons I'm sent that call me a tboy with a victim complex.
All my love to the trans and intersex women who are at higher risk than I am, particularly those who are sex workers.
hey anon saying "my abuser was a trans man so trans men hate trans women" I just want you to know I'm a transmasc person who was literally abused horrifically on the basis of sharing a similar pronoun and gender identity to my then-girlfriend's ex. she used the abuse of an entirely unrelated person as an excuse to insinuate I never respected her and would regularly scream at me and even invalidated my trauma over a relative dying using her own trauma.
she also, unsurprisingly, was a rampant transandrophobe, calling me horrible and transmisogynistic because I challenged her as a trans woman over saying blatantly transphobic things about trans men and transmascs (myself included).
because it was never about truth, it was about being on top and being the most inconvenienced and being in control of the conversation of suffering (this went beyond us fighting over my gender).
think why you feel that way, that you need sole dictation over the conversation and can't let anyone else breathe their words about experiences that may challenge how you feel, anon
if I were to do what she did, and say I was uncomfortable with trans women because they can be abusive, I would rightfully be ripped limb from limb for the transmisogynistic notion that trans women are remotely a monolith or are abusive based solely on my experience
but I guess trans men aren't owed that same equivalence. they are forced to live a double standard there. because you don't respect us enough for it. why is that.
"because it was never about truth, it was about being on top and being the most inconvenienced and being in control of the conversation of suffering,"
"if I were to do what she did, and say I was uncomfortable with trans women because they can be abusive, I would rightfully be ripped limb from limb for the transmisogynistic notion that trans women are remotely a monolith or are abusive based solely on my experience"
i had to highlight these bits in particulare because good god you worded this so perfectly. i am so sorry you have had this experience but you knocked the ball so far out of the park that i am genuinely in awe of how well you conveyed this, and how absolutely fucked peoples' double standards are when it comes to abuse and how people think that trans men and mascs have it "so much easier in life". you're dead on the money. NONE of this has to do with talking about oppression and looking out for one another.
this behavior is about control.
it's about controlling the narrative. some people literally get so insecure when the conversation turns away from them for even a moment, they think it means that everyone is their enemy. yes, trans women have an absolutely awful time in cisheternormative society. so do trans men.
i have been emotionally and sexually abused and harassed by 3 separate trans women. one of which struck me with an object, another who stole something out of my purse while i was asleep and continuously kept trying to get in my pants after she found out i had a vagina despite me repeatedly turning her down, and another who mocked me for my psychotic episodes and repeatedly swore up and down that i didn't have DID and just in general gaslit and emotionally abused the fuck out of me. the woman who hit me also constantly kept insinuating that penises are what make a man a man, and would not stop making me feel bad for not having a biopenis.
once everyone found out i had a vag, suddenly, i was a cishet woman in their house and i was public enemy #1. i had to deal with my cis gay male roommate shrieking about how he's gay, boobs and vaginas are disgusting, he's a MAN attracted to MEN. meanwhile, my ex girlfriend (the one who hit me) made me feel like shit for being a man without a penis almost every single day. she would guilt trip me about how she missed being with partners with biopenises and would spend all day telling me that she loved me, but then would turn around and scream and yell at me and tell me that i'm an evil asshole.
the transandrophobia i have had to deal with at the hands of other trans women has been absolutely fucking staggering. we need to stop fostering a culture where this is okay because it's genuinely getting people hurt. like you said, if a transmasc were to say "i hate trans women, they're all mean and shitty and abusive," they would literally be torn limb from fucking limb. and rightfully so, because it's a dogshit thing to say. but we HAVE to start telling people who do this to trans men to fuck OFF and stop it.
i am very sorry you went through that. i hope things improve for you, and that you're able to spend time in company that treats you with respect. nobody should have to deal with literal profiling just because of their gender.
is that what we're doing now? profiling people based off of their gender? how is that progressive? how is that liberating? how is that trans rights? it ain't.
Honestly I've gotten a lot of shit in my life for being a feminine trans man, but not a single bit of it has been from other trans men. I consistently get people talking about 'ALL this toxic masculinity' in the transmasc community and i agree, but i think its greatly misunderstood.
i do not think there is a trend of trans men being misogynistic assholes to people around them (not that there aren't indivuals) but there is definitely a huge trend of trans men being MASSIVE ASSHOLES to themselves.
I've never had a trans man tell me I can't wear pink or like bows or skirts, never had an issue with them treating me as less than or degrading femininity. What I have had the experience of though, is trans men constantly being afraid of expressing any sense of emotion, or worrying about their hair being slightly below the ears, and lamenting having to give up painting their nails.
Mind you these are the same men who have whole heartedly encouraged my gender-expressions, helped me try on skirts, even painted my nails for me.
And yet they can't even fathom the concept of letting themselves do the same without thinking it makes them 'less of a man'.
I've heard a lot of claims online of trans men being spoilt/entitled/not suffering enough and gods knows what else, over the past couple of weeks. so i just wanted to say:
TRANS MEN NEED TO BE NICER TO THEMSELVES.