DAENERYS WANTS EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE
On the cover of ADWD for Brazil, I placed Daenerys at the top of the Meyering Pyramid ladder. Undoubtedly, I was unconsciously influenced by the series. And George told me that DAENERYS WANTS EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE, SHE WANTS TO BE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS HER PEOPLE, so I made her come down to maintain consistency" — Mark Simonetti
https://www.lagardedenuit.com/interview-de-marc-simonetti-2018/
And there's a reason this is important, because thrones and what they symbolize are a cross—cutting theme in the Daenerys books. Even when it's "unbecoming of a queen," Daenerys prefers a simple bench to a fantasy throne. She does not act in accordance with what is accepted and what is not accepted in society, but strives for equality and simplicity. She sincerely wants equality for everyone, even if it diminishes her own greatness. Even when others believe that a queen should put herself above her subjects, she doesn't.
There's a reason the books keep mentioning her thrones.:
Her waiting room was on the lower level, an echoing room with high ceilings and walls of purple marble. For all its splendor, it was a cool place. There once stood a throne, a fantastic thing made of carved and gilded wood in the shape of a ferocious harpy. She looked at it for a long time and ordered it to be broken into firewood. “I'm not going to sit on a harpy's lap,” she told them. Instead, she sat down on a simple ebony bench. It was convenient, though she could hear the maesters whispering that it was unbecoming of a queen. ― ASOS
Daenerys Targaryen preferred to conduct court sitting on a bench of polished ebony, smooth and simple, covered with cushions that Ser Barristan had found to make her more comfortable. King Hizdahr replaced the bench with two imposing thrones made of gilded wood, the high backs of which were carved in the shape of dragons. The king sat on the right throne with a golden crown on his head and a jeweled scepter in his pale hand. The second throne remained vacant. ― ADWD
Hizdahr's grotesque dragon thrones were removed on Ser Barristan's orders, but he did not return the simple bench with cushions that the queen preferred. Instead, a large round table with high chairs around it was set up in the center of the hall, where men could sit and talk as equals.
“She had loved the scent of winter roses.” — “never a breath stirring the still blue air... The whispers became a swirling song...” — “Promise me, Ned”
"Not everything is a clue. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But sometimes it's not." -(Live Journal,2013)
"The timeline of the Tower of Joy events is tricky. I might have gotten some details wrong." -(Entertainment Weekly it, 2015)
"Keep reading" and added that the red door is not just a memory of Daenerys' happy childhood. There will be a lot more about these doors in TWOW."
I've been complaining about this overall "anti Targaryen", "anti dragon" campaing that hbo shows are pushing (ive seen it a bit in AKOTSK and more and more in season 3 of HOTD) and is not a theme that ive seen portrayed in the books (in the sense that in the books the Targaryens are not seen as an overall "evil" family by the people of westeros nor by the maesters)
and it just struck me that they have to keep pushing this narrative to justify Daenerys awful ending in GOT
because no matter how hard they hammer Aegon's prophecy, they fucked up aegon's prophecy in the main show, so now they have to make it look like the prophecy is another sign of "targaryen madness", and the seven kingdoms were seven peaceful realms before the evil dragon lords came to take it
what i find puzzling is why they keep making shows about characters they so clearly hate and see not as fucked up and complex individuals but as evil incarnate
I just know they're gonna fuck up Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys so much, my heart cant take it
i rarely see dany stans wish the worst on sansa, but in comparison i see tons of stansas wishing the worst on dany
Because the reality is that Sansa will have very little, if any, impact on Dany's arc. There's literally no reason for Dany fans to feel threatened by her, which is why Stansas hate Dany so much. Dany is the Queen of the series and the single most powerful character in the books. And she gained that power through her own strength, intelligence, and magic. That's something that's never going to happen for Sansa and her fans can't handle it. They basically spend all of their time circle-jerking over how amazing Sansa is and pretending her ordering servants around is the most politically charged maneuver in the series. You compare that to Dany actually being a leader and holding court and there's no contest. That's why stansas need her to be the Mad Queen. Because Sansa being handed a crown because she's a Stark isn't satisfying to them, they want her to be Queen as proof that she's superior to other characters. Dany existing within her own self-made kingdom ruins that for them. That's also why they come up with theories of Dany being jealous of how beautiful and loved Sansa is 🙄. It's just them playing out their own self-insert fantasies. If anything Sansa will be the one awed by Dany lol. Most Dany fans want Sansa to have a happy ending because they don't dislike her, just their fans. They even talk about their parallels and theorize about them being friends. They just don't treat Dany like she's a prop for Sansa and her fans are too insecure to handle that.
I am a bit concern how much the fandom seems — I don’t want to use this term “eager” — very accepting to the idea that the orphan, penniless child is destined to murder innocent people, despite the compassion and kindness that is the established focal point of her character. Feminists in the 1970’s were denouncing the madwoman in the attic trope in Victorian liteature but feminists in 2025 desire a revival of it. I also tend to find that people often ignore the clear 90s-inheirtance in which ASOIAF is based on, where the norm for the savior was a male character, often unaware of their great lineage and power, which Jon clearly fits the bill (and which Martin has used the term “classical hero” before.) No one then or in world would have give Daenerys any inclination that she could be TPTWP or powerful in her own right. Indeed, whenever discussions around her is brought up, it is often the idea of what she could provide for others without full consideration of her own autonomy and personality.
For Robert, it was the fact she could birth more “dragonspawn”, for Viserys, it is an army in which to conquer his father’s throne, for Drogo, it is the ability for her to give him children and serve as his sex slave whenever he desires; for Euron and Young Griff, it is her dragons. This same train of thought tends to be exuberated by the fandom at large with ideas that Jon and potentially Tyrion would claim Daenerys’ dragons. Daenerys is often regulated as the same “gift-tool” often presented in literature where female characters exist to be gifts or tools for the male hero to use to win against the great evil (displayed in story with Nissa Nissa’s sacrifice). There is no real attempt to met out Daenerys’ character at her own, instead the dangers or uses she can provide for other, mostly male characters, with often ideas that she will be put down like a rabid dog because of some “female hysteria” that does not exist and her corpse to be the stepping stone upon which a man can fulfill his destiny.
We are now going back in terms of feminism and equality for all. Humans are becoming more racist, more homophobic, more misogynistic and more idiotic as a whole.
But the ASoIaF fandom for what I have heard (or read) has always been very misogynistic, but it got way worse after GoT. The treatment and understanding of Dany has only been muddied by the idiots who made GoT and people's own brain-rotting misogyny.
This is a rant from a Daenerys stan who has criticised GRRM before and who, unfortunately, has suspected for years that this was where the story was going.
This is the spoiler regarding Dany and Jon from Reddit:
"The play cross-cuts the conceptions of Jon and Daenerys under the same red comet. Rhaegar is with Lyanna while Aerys is with Rhaella, implying that either—or both—could represent the promised saviour.
This cannot fit the published chronology literally. Jon is substantially older than Daenerys in the novels. It is probably theatrical compression or play-specific symbolism, not a usable book timeline revelation.
Rhaella curses the gods to give her a vengeful daughter. Rather than another noble prince, she invokes a daughter who will wake/restore dragons and bring fire, ruin and vengeance upon kingdoms.
The scene strongly foreshadows a destructive Daenerys. It appears intended to support Daenerys eventually burning kingdoms—possibly King’s Landing—but it does not explicitly reveal her precise book ending."
So... Rhaegar and Lyanna conceive Jon in a scene framed through love, choice, prophecy, and the attempt to determine their own fate. At the same time, Aerys and Rhaella conceive Daenerys within madness, abuse, hatred, and vengeance. Rhaella curses the gods and asks not for another prince, but for a daughter who will restore the dragons and bring fire and ruin upon the kingdoms that destroyed her family.
WTF is that symbolism.
So Jon is conceived from love and therefore becomes the hidden saviour, while Daenerys is conceived through violence and vengeance and therefore carries destruction inside her from the beginning.
Jon is the child of two lovers wanting to do good. Daenerys is the child summoned as a weapon of destruction, for their evil desires. Before either child has taken a breath, the story has apparently assigned them opposing moral destinies.
So basically Dany is born wrong.
As though the circumstances of a child’s conception actually determine the moral nature of the adult. In 2026.
As though Jon inherits love, while Daenerys inherits madness. Her freaking destiny is to be the villain.
That is essentially a bad seed narrative, and it is a terrible framework for her character. It turns the violence committed against Rhaella into an omen of her daughter’s future evil. It plainly suggest that a woman conceived through abuse cannot escape the purpose for which others imagined her. The victimisation of one woman becomes evidence for the future corruption of another.
Daenerys is therefore not allowed to escape the role imagined for her before birth. She may resist it for years. She may free slaves, protect the powerless, chain her dragons, refuse easy massacres and struggle against ruling with violence.
But none of that ultimately matters, because the prophecy has already defined what she is. And that is a fucking curse.
And GRRM praised the play. He essentially subscribes to this. That does not mean every element of the play will occur literally in the novels. It does not prove the exact circumstances of Daenerys’s ending. But it strongly suggests that he approves of this symbolic opposition between Jon and Daenerys. The fucking story is really is “the male was conceived with love, the girl was conceived in madness, therefore Jon saves and Daenerys destroys”. Women are inherently evil in 2026 folks. That's the point of it all. In the end it was indeed always about cocks, and females be damned (and mad).
So yes, I don't have any hope left for a good ending for Dany. She will burn Kings landing and probably more and she will be killed by her just lover. It's not D&D fault in the end, surprise surpise. And maybe that's why the books are so late. GRRM saw people hating the true ending and he is afraid of the global reaction. So that's why all these stories are soft launching Dany inevitable demise: they need to justify it.
It was always going to be hard to adapt a story that ends with the gendered killing of a woman by her relative, a rival male claimant, after the end of GOT—notably Jon stabbing Dany before the Iron Throne because she “went mad”—was so poorly received. But it seems that the way out of this HOTD is trying to use is, “showing us that Rhaenyra being killed is justified”. The lesson they took was that Dany’s madness and cruelty weren’t believable, and so her stabbing was not seen as deserved, so people didn’t like it; in response they have written, or tried to write, Rhaenyra descending into a more believable cruelty and darkness. They have followed the “if they’d foreshadowed mad!Dany properly it would have worked!” criticisms*
You can think what you like but I don’t think it works. Where this falls apart is that what happened to Rhaenyra—beginning with being targeted in her own home by Alicent, and being usurped, which leads to the war and her death—was unjustified and driven by misogyny. I’m not interested in a story about how THIS woman, this time, DID deserve her fate, and we did legwork to show you why so you’ll agree. I would find it far more progressive (and more satisfying) to see a story about a woman being mistreated and then killed and the narrative framing it as horrifying, and gendered, rather than her being put down like a bad dog by someone who—in Ryan Condal’s own words!—is now “more suited to the throne”, since Rhaenyra has been “contorted” by power
*I don’t really think they even managed to do this properly. The characterisation this season has been terrible
Let’s take it as given that he wanted to honor Lyanna Stark for her deeds as the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Tourney at Harrenhal. And also given that he felt he needed a third head of the dragon for the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised (the Song of Ice and Fire), and that he really wanted Lyanna in particular to be the mother of his third child. He still went about it in a remarkably stupid fashion.
When he named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty instead of his wife Elia Martell, he:
publicly shamed his wife, leading to tension in the Targaryen-Martell alliance
angered Lyanna’s betrothed, the lord of the Stormlands
angered Lyanna’s family, the lords of the North
caused all the watching lords of Westeros to wonder if he was heading for the “madness” side of the Targaryen coin, and not any more suitable to rule than his mad father was
He could have done many other things to honor her (or declare his love, if you wish). But he did that, which was incredibly politically stupid. Romantic as hell. And goddamn stupid.
Now, Lyanna’s “kidnapping” was several months later. (Not immediately after the Tourney – Rhaegar’s son Aegon was born, the Starks returned home to Winterfell, Robert and Ned went back to the Eyrie, etc.) In that time, there was probably some effort by the Targaryens and their advisers to unruffle the feathers of the various lords. (Probably. God knows, with Aerys.) In that time, Rhaegar decided Elia could not bear a third child and chose Lyanna instead, and perhaps made efforts to court her in secret.
In that time, Rhaegar could have contacted Rickard Stark and asked for Lyanna to be his wife. He could have done something to deal with how his cousin Robert would handle this. (Paid him off somehow, offered some other pretty highborn maiden, who knows.) He could have made the concept of a Stark becoming a Targaryen princess a great honor. He could have made sure Elia would not be further shamed by this and that Dorne would not be angered. (A divorce or annulment might not be necessary, as Targaryens had had multiple wives before, even if it was rare.) And he could have waited to do this all after he called a Great Council to remove his mad father from the throne.
But instead, Lyanna disappeared, and somehow everyone knew Rhaegar was behind it. The assumption by her brother and her betrothed was that she had been kidnapped to be raped by a mad prince. And then after this, Rhaegar was out of touch and could not be found (not by his enemies, by his father and closest friend!) for months, while political chaos ensued and a war began. This was beyond stupid. There aren’t words for how politically dumb this was.
Rhaegar wanted to save the world. All he did was to prevent destruction, to create the savior he couldn’t be himself. But instead he caused a civil war, and destroyed his family, Westeros, and himself. He didn’t need to move so quickly, without thinking – even if the prophecy was true and necessary, there was no need for the third head of the dragon to be born right away. (If there was like 3 years between Rhaenys and Aegon, then surely the same amount of time would be no problem between Aegon and Rhaegar’s third child. And if he thought his infant son was the PTWP, then whatever great calamity Rhaegar thought he was preventing must have been decades away, when the boy would be an adult.)
But he thought prophecy was more important than politics. He held songs higher than diplomacy. And he died for it, as did his son, his daughter, his wife, his father, and his lover. And Lyanna… even if she was in heedless love herself… she knew her father and brother died because of what she did and how she did it. A tragedy beyond measure.
And that’s the problem with Rhaegar. This is not “character hate”. This is his character.
(And I’m actually being kind to him in assuming he did it all for the benefit of the world and not the benefit of his dick for “love”.)
I started reading Game of Thrones to cope with the long wait before the next season. Not only are some characters pretty different from the show, there are some minor things that bother me much more than it should, such as Daenerys’ dark eyebrows and eye color.
Even though I wouldn’t want to see a thirteen year old Dany on the show, I decided to draw her more accurate to the book. I’ve also been trying to draw Rhaegar but he never comes out gorgeous enough *sigh*
Her dress is based on this img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-stat…
I've been complaining about this overall "anti Targaryen", "anti dragon" campaing that hbo shows are pushing (ive seen it a bit in AKOTSK and more and more in season 3 of HOTD) and is not a theme that ive seen portrayed in the books (in the sense that in the books the Targaryens are not seen as an overall "evil" family by the people of westeros nor by the maesters)
and it just struck me that they have to keep pushing this narrative to justify Daenerys awful ending in GOT
because no matter how hard they hammer Aegon's prophecy, they fucked up aegon's prophecy in the main show, so now they have to make it look like the prophecy is another sign of "targaryen madness", and the seven kingdoms were seven peaceful realms before the evil dragon lords came to take it
what i find puzzling is why they keep making shows about characters they so clearly hate and see not as fucked up and complex individuals but as evil incarnate
I just know they're gonna fuck up Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys so much, my heart cant take it
Disclaimer: This is by no means an attack on Daenerys; she’s one of my favorite characters, and I totally understand why her fans want to protect her from the misogynistic attacks she faces.
With that out of the way…
I see that many fans have taken it for granted that Daenerys is Azor Ahai because she fulfills several requirements of the prophecy, such as being reborn, belonging to the right bloodline, awakening stone dragons, and the comet. Even some characters in the books think she is Azor Ahai. Everything fits perfectly, but that’s my problem—it’s all a little too neat.
I’ll never try to claim that I know how the books will end—that’s for Martin alone to decide—but it seems way too obvious to me. That’s not how he likes to write prophecies. He himself says in interviews how much fun prophecies are when they aren’t what they seem, when they trick us.
So when I see a lot of fans saying that Martin explicitly states in the text that she is Azor Ahai, and that anyone who disagrees is either someone who wants Jon Snow to be the savior or a sexist who won’t accept what’s in the text—I think that’s the wrong conclusion to draw from this discussion. The books aren’t finished yet; the only certainties we have are the ones Martin has already confirmed (aka Bran as King).
I can’t think of any prophecy Martin has given us that’s so important it would have such a direct answer.
So, since you asked, I just want to offer you some perspective as to why so many of us think Dany is Azor Ahai, even though many people think it's "too obvious". I disagree with you for a few reasons:
1) It's not true that GRRM doesn't write straightforward prophecies. In ACOK, the Undying give Dany a prophetic vision of a feast of corpses with a man on a throne with the head of a wolf. Then the Red Wedding happens almost exactly like that. Sure, Robb is not a dead man sitting on a throne, but the core of the vision happens in a quite straightforward way, even the part about sewing Grey Wind's head on Robb's body.
2) Dany being Azor Ahai is unexpected and subversive, just not in the way you're thinking. For a prophecy to be unexpected and subversive, it doesn't always have to be fulfilled in some really crazy or metaphorical way. It can be unexpected in other ways, like the fact that Dany is a girl, and no one expected a girl, both in ASOIAF's patriarchal universe and in the audience (maybe nowadays this is something the audience expects more, but back in the 90s, when ASOIAF was first written, it was not). There's also the fact that Dany fulfilling the prophecy in the first book, before the prophecy is even discussed, is something I'd argue most readers don't expect. And there are also some metaphorical parts of Dany fulfilling the prophecy: the bleeding star is not actually a star that bleeds, it's a comet.
3) The third reason is that Dany already fulfilled everything in the prophecy. Every requirement was already fulfilled. There's nothing more to fulfill, other than maybe Dany helping to bring back the dawn***, and I'm pretty sure she will do that, because there's just no way for Dany to not play a major role in the war for the dawn. She literally has the most powerful weapons against the Others (the dragons) and the first book even begins with the Others and ends with the dragons. There's no way for her to not play a major role. So she already fullfils everything in the prophecy, and the only thing that's left is being a major player in the war for the dawn, which is also almost certain that she will be. So in my opinion, it makes no sense to say that a character that fulfills every part of the Azor Ahai prophecy is not Azor Ahai. Like, really, I can't understand this line of reasoning that says Dany isn't Azor Ahai. The criteria for finding out who is the fulfillment of any fictional prophecy is precisely fulfilling the prophecy, be the fulfillment literal or metaphorical. If you have a prophecy that says that hero X will do Y and Z, and character A does Y and Z, then you can't just deny that A is X, because they fulfilled the prophecy. So yeah, I don't think it's possible to deny that Dany is Azor Ahai. Saying that "Dany fulfills everything in the prophecy, but she's not the fulfillment of the prophecy" is a completely contradictory statement, in my opinion. You can argue that other people might also fulfill the prophecy and Azor Ahai is more than one person, but there's no way to deny that Dany is Azor Ahai because she does fulfill the prophecy.
*** Actually, bringing back the dawn and defeating the Others is just what fans assume to be a requirement of the prophecy (and I do too), but the actual prophecy doesn't even say that. What the prophecy says is this: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." So Dany did fulfill every part of the prophecy. When we say Dany is Azor Ahai, we're not assuming that Dany will be Azor Ahai in the future, we're not saying that we know what will happen in future books, we're saying that the prophecy ALREADY HAPPENED. Dany already fulfilled it, therefore, she already is Azor Ahai.
(PS: The whole Nissa Nissa story is part of the story of Azor Ahai in the past, not the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn. But even if it was, Dany did fulfill this as well with Drogo)
Thanks for replying. I hadn’t seen anyone discussing these points
1. Yes, whilst writing the original post, I actually did remember that prophecy about the Red Wedding. But I don’t think it undermines my point. The prophecies about the Red Wedding appear in the second book, spoken by Pach Face, but they’re much more indirect – it’s not something that’s obvious. It’s in book three that we have the prophecy of the House of the Undying, which is the most direct prophecy. It occurs towards the end of the book, whilst the Red Wedding takes place halfway through the following book. It’s effective because it doesn’t take long to come true; it doesn’t lose its impact. And this prophecy is very much the exception rather than the rule. We have Bran’s prophecies in the dream where he’s falling with the Three-Eyed Raven, and he has several visions, many of which are still debated today. In the House of the Undying itself, there is the prophecy of the three, including the three heads of the Dragon. None of them are direct, leaving the fandom debating to this day whether some have already come true (such as those concerning the three fires and mounts) or not. So why would the most important one, which he’s been building up over four books, be the exception to what he actively enjoys doing? Because he’s already said that’s how he likes to craft prophecies – he likes the ambiguity; some are more direct, but would he make the biggest prophecy the most straightforward one, which goes against his style?
2. I agree that it’s quite subversive for the audience he was writing for. And there are various ways of writing a prophecy in a way that subverts the reader’s expectations. But that’s not how Martin said he likes it. To quote him: "Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle andhe was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never cameanyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true inunexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."
3. She doesn’t need to be part of the prophecy to fight against the others. She may take part in the war not because she is destined to do so, but because she is someone who fights for life, as we saw with her in the Slaver’s Bay.
To say that, because she meets the requirements, she is be Azor Ahai ignores the fact that we do not know what those requirements are. She will be reborn amidst salt and smoke, when the star bleeds. Your interpretation is that Daenerys was "reborn" by emerging from a pyre and hatching stone eggs into dragons. But at the end of the day, without confirmation from the source material, it is merely an interpretation. If the prophecy is metaphorical, then she may not have fulfilled it at all; it may merely appear that way.
Bonus: In my theory Azor Ahai is a group of people, and that Dany would be part of it. But don’t hold me to that theory, it’s just something I’ve come up with in my head.
Wrote that in the middle of the night so it's not perfect and my text is already way too long
Hi, thanks for the nice response. So, to address your new points:
1) I will agree to disagree on this one. I could point out other literal prophecies, like the destruction of Valyria in Daenys's dream, or the literal pale mare that comes to Dany, but I don't think that will change how you think of how impactful or how minor or major these prophecies are.
2) I already knew this quote from him, and it doesn't really change my mind on it being Dany, because Dany's fulfillment of the prophecy is not that literal. The only literal thing about it is the waking dragons part. Everything else is metaphorical: a) the bleeding star is actually a comet; b) Dany doesn't wake dragons from literal stone, but from petrified eggs (and the books make a point of calling attention to this: Melisandre thinks Stannis will wake the literal stone dragons from Dragonstone, and she's wrong to take that literal interpretation); c) the prophecy says "In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword", but Dany is not a traditional warrior and she doesn't draw a literal burning sword from the fire, but dragons (Melisandre also tries to make Stannis do this literally by having him draw a burning sword from the fire, and she's wrong again); d) this is not part of the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn exactly, it's part of the ancient legend of the past, but it says that Azor Ahai got his flaming sword by driving it into Nissa Nissa's heart, and Dany doesn't do that literally either, she sacrifices her husband, her son and Mirri but they're already dead before she goes into the fire, and the dragons don't come out of Drogo's heart literally, so all of this is metaphorical as well.
Another reason why I don't think this quote means it's not Dany is that GRRM has also said other things, like this one:
“I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that” (source)
If the only clues about Dany being Azor Ahai were the bleeding star and Dany waking dragons out of stone, then maybe I'd agree that this could be there to mislead us, but it's not just that. The amount of clues pointing to Dany as Azor Ahai is enormous. My reply doesn't even scratch the surface of just how many clues there are. I'm not even going to try to list them here because it's too many, if you're interested, I have a compilation of metas about magic and prophecies in these links (X, X, X). I don't think it makes sense for GRRM to plant this many clues pointing to Dany, only to say that it's not her, and he himself says he doesn't like this kind of writing (this quote about the butler is something he repeats in several interviews, not just this one).
3) a) Yes, she doesn't need to be part of the prophecy to fight against the others, that was never my argument, my argument was that she's the fulfillment of the prophecy because she fulfills the requirements.
b) We do know what the requirements are. By definition, something can only be called a prophecy if you know what's going to happen beforehand. The Azor Ahai prophecy (that is also used interchangeably in the books with the Prince that was promised prophecy by several characters) is a known and documented prophecy in the world of ASOIAF, and we learn about the requirements throughout the books:
Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." - Davos I ACOK
"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. [...] It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. - Davos III ASOS
So we do know the requirements. Dany fulfills everything, many of them metaphorically.
c) "But at the end of the day, without confirmation from the source material, it is merely an interpretation." -> I think we fundamentally disagree here. I don't think there will ever be "confirmation from the source material". GRRM is not going to write a character breaking the fourth wall to say "I confirm X is Azor Ahai". I don't think he will give us an authority figure in this story that is completely unbiased and is able with certainty to confirm who Azor Ahai is. It's always going to be an interpretation. We will only ever know who Azor Ahai is by looking at the actions of the characters in the story, which is why I and many others think Dany is Azor Ahai, because of her actions fitting the prophecy.
d) "If the prophecy is metaphorical, then she may not have fulfilled it at all; it may merely appear that way." -> I think that's another fundamental disagreement that we have. If the thing the prophecy says will happen happens, I don't think it makes any sense to say it doesn't count because it has to be metaphorical or because it has to be literal. The prophecy doesn't specify that. The prophecy doesn't say "Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake metaphorical dragons out of metaphorical stone", it just says Azor Ahai will wake dragons out of stone. Anyone that fulfills all the requirements of the prophecy can be considered Azor Ahai (which is why I think it's fair to argue that it might be more than one person fulfilling the prophecy in the end), whether they fulfill it in a literal way or metaphorical way.
Motherhood, rebirth, and the rule of three: the theme of self-sacrifice in Daenerys’s story
Self-sacrifice is a reoccurring and fundamental theme in Daenerys’s story, and it is undeniably one of the most essential aspects of her character. Like many themes and motifs regarding Dany, I believe the one of self-sacrifice also follows the rule of three.
While Dany always puts the good of her people above her own, there are three instances specifically in which this theme reaches the pinnacle of its narrative importance; two have already happened, one is foreshadowed to happen later in her story. The three sacrifices I am referring to are: the sacrifice for her dragons’ birth in AGoT, the sacrifice of her nature, morality and freedom to make “peace” with the slavers in ADwD, and the unknown sacrifice she will make prior to, or during the battle against the Others.
A Mother’s love
There are a few aspects of these sacrifices that are particularly noteworthy. The first one is the reason that pushes Dany to make all three of the self-sacrifices: her children.
In all cases, Dany willingly gives up a fundamental part of herself, even her own soul (albeit in different ways) to create or protect the lives of her children. She sacrifices herself to the flames of Drogo’s funeral pyre in order to birth the dragons; she gives up her desires, her bodily autonomy, her principles and her freedom in the desperate attempt to protect her freedmen; while we do not know what her third sacrifice will be, we can safely assume it will be to save the people of the world from the Long Night. Each sacrifice is, or will be, made out of love for her children: the dragons, the freedmen, the people of the world. For Daenerys’s character, it is natural, yet no less symbolical, that each sacrifice is connected to the three different facets of her motherhood: her identity as the Mother of Dragons, as Mhysa, and as the Stallion Who Mounts the World (prophetical role she will fulfill by being a mother to the people of the world, the shepherd that unites them, the beacon of hope and light that leads them through and out of the darkness). This connection becomes even more significant when we remember that Dany’s three motherhoods, in addition to being linked to her self-sacrifices, are also strictly intertwined with each other: it is her identity as the Mother of Dragons that allows her to become Mhysa and, later, the Stallion Who Mounts the World, and, as I will expand on later, it is, again, her identity as Mother of Dragons that allows her to make her sacrifices in the first place, and to find a path forward after.
Rebirth through self-acceptance
The other, perhaps underrated aspect of this theme, is the rebirth that follows each of the self-sacrifices. For most people, sacrifice constitutes the end of their life and journey. But not for the daughter of death. Each time, no matter the severity and nature of the sacrifice, she manages to not only move on from it and continue her path forward, but to be reborn from it and evolve in a stronger, truest version of herself.
The sacrifice in the pyre is meant, and is expected by other characters, to be the end for Dany. But instead of burning with Drogo’s corpse and Mirri, she is reborn with her dragons, and evolves into the higher version of herself she was always destined to become: the Unburnt, the Mother of Dragons.
The sacrifice she makes in Meereen should also be the end for her, on a moral and personal level even more so than on a physical one. It’s supposed to be the death of her role and journey as Mhysa, as an autonomous and free woman, and as a queen in her own right. It doesn’t just cost Dany her happiness and desires, it costs her her bodily autonomy, her freedom and independence as a human being, and it was going to cost her her life too. But in the Dothraki sea, she manages to confront the truth and refuses to reject her nature any longer, breaking the shackles she had put on herself, reclaiming the identity she had forsaken and being reborn as the dragon she is, as the fierce mythical mother ready to protect her children with fire and blood.
Following the rule of three, I am of the belief that there will be a third and final sacrifice during the long night. We obviously cannot know what this sacrifice will look like; it could be her “simply” giving up the Iron Throne, forsaking her family’s legacy and her dream of home (even more so than she’s already done) in order to embrace her role as Azor Ahai and turn north to lead the battle for the dawn, or it could be something else that will happen during the battle itself, but whatever it will be—even if it’s something akin to a physical death—Dany has already been heavily foreshadowed to overcome this self-sacrifice like she’s done with the two preceding it.
In all three cases, what her children need is the same: her fire, her life. But even if she gives it to them, that fire could never be extinguished, because Dany IS the fire. This relates to another crucial aspect of this theme: its connection to her dragons.
While all of her children represent a fundamental part of her identity and play an essential role in her journey, it is no coincidence that Drogon specifically, who is the truest manifestation of her soul, is the one who always reaches her, saves her life and, in one way or another, makes the rebirth after her self-sacrifice possible: in AGoT, he communicates with Dany through dragon dreams and not only saves her life, but also puts her onto the path that will lead her to the ritual in which she will sacrifice herself and be reborn; in ADwD, Dany imprisons herself (Viserion and Rhaegal), but the fiercest, truest part of her, Drogon, refuses to subject himself (and therefore, Dany) to the same fate, comes back to rescue her in the fighting pit and takes her to the Dothraki sea, thus forcing her to accept who she is and be reborn once again; as we saw in the House of the Undying, Drogon has been foreshadowed to save Dany from the Others as well, by rescuing her from them and devouring the heart of winter.
Each time, he saves her and triggers her rebirth after the sacrifice, which is especially powerful since, as I already said, Drogon is the truest embodiment of Dany’s soul. She can give up her fire and her essence for the good of her children as many times as it is necessary; as long as the source of her own fire, the dragons (and therefore, herself: they come from her, they are one and the same) are by her side, there will be no sacrifice big enough to stop her from being reborn.
Dany’s rebirths from self-sacrifice are also accompanied by another fundamental theme, that highlights even more the importance of her connection to the dragons and her identity as one: self-acceptance.
When Dany moves on from the sacrifices she makes, she is also forced to face her truest self and embrace her true identity. After she sacrifices herself in the pyre and becomes the Mother of Dragons, she finally embraces her identity as the last dragon and a ruling queen and khaleesi in her own right, without attributing those roles and rights to the men in her life first. In the Dothraki sea, after compromising with slavers and forsaking and betraying her own identity, principles and freedom, she finally accepts her nature as a dragon, realizing what she must do in order to fully be the liberator and mother her children need her to be. One can argue it is exactly this self-acceptance that allows her to move forward from the sacrifices she makes and regenarate herself. Is is when Dany finally stops denying who she is that she can continue her path forward as her higher self.
I believe that, in the future, once she learns of the Long Night and the prophecies she’s the center of, she will decide to embrace her role as Azor Ahai, and will therefore be able to reach the fullest and most complete version of herself, the mythical hero and mother she was born to be, role that encompasses all of her other identities. It will be not only her self-sacrifice, but also the full, unconditional acceptance and embrace of her role and destiny that will allow her to find a path forward through the darkness, and lead her children into the dawn.
Have you checked out those recent Mad King play leaks? The ones GRRM has apparently been into too. The playwrights said some parts are canon and some aren't, and I've seen a lot of people take some of those details as proof that Dany is definitely meant to become the Mad Queen in fandom
I'm curious what you think if you've looked into them. Tbh my thoughts are kind of all over the place right now
I don't think they indicate mad queen in any way, honestly, or at least not beyond what I've already theorized and do think will happen: Dany will be responsible for a large amount of burning deaths in Kings Landing even if her intention was never to blow up the city, but will also save the world. A girl is the world's savior. A girl also hurt a lot of people. She will only be remembered for the pain, but the true story is what makes her a hero. That's the paradox at the heart of ASOIAF.
I'm honestly more intrigued that Ashara's baby is Brandon's and not Ned's! Curious if that is canon or not.
And also: I told you so to everyone who doubted Lyanna and Rhaegar really loved each other and it was just prophecy obsession and sad manipulation. It was both. It will always be both with George RR Martin.
