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@zisas
If it quacks like an anti, if it looks like an anti, it's an anti.
The minute a rider of a dragon dies the dragon is free to claim a dragon isn't a car house or object to be owned guess who owned vhagar before laena ??? Aemond grandmother so cry me a river
And aemond had zero bond with laena and he was a child oooh my bad a child exuse only apply to your own faves
If you think it's okay to make a child lose an eye over anything you need help and let alone be beaten down
Them white kids are inheriting Driftmark over Black kids and they don't think that's theft lol ok.
Driftmark is property. A dragon isn't. Idc about the marriage. Rhaena should be the heir, not married to the heir.
Why is Rhaenyra not fighting for Rhaena's rights as a woman? Oh yeah because she needs the marriage to make her white son look less invalid as heir to a Black man's property. Rhaenyra inheriting the throne doesn't improve women's rights for women everywhere. Just her. Too bad her opponent is Aegon. It just makes me root for neither for the throne.
so on the topic of Max’s journey this season I want to get this one out really fast. THE LETTERS! Look I get it, they wanted him to move on and show him going forward, however they have to pick one way to do so and stay consistent throughout the show. For example, Liz had to come to peace with her past this season in order to move forward and save Max. She had to look her ugly past and strive for perfection in the face and swallow that nasty pill.
While Max’s character for the sake of moving on burns the very thing that would help him to do so. Creating another barrier in his mental health. But this could just be me upset, cause I wanted a cute pod squad moment where he gave them the letters.
His character focus seemed to be on his phobia of science as well as his expression of longing to be just a regular guy from Roswell. Another journey straight from season one, as he told Liz he was just a guy from Roswell in the pilot. This journey for him felt more stilted then Liz’s, as they tried to bandaid his fear of science at the end.
His character felt sidelined this season, even with the idea that labor issues were involved as well as all the editing for have him and Jones to share scenes. But, he felt less prevalent than Elena in TVD. Which could be just due to the 13 vs 23 episode seasons.
My personal issues with his character this season was the fact he was sidelined inside his own family. Michael’s line to Alex in the couch ‘you helped me find my real family’ made my blood actually boil. Because Alex might have helped them find Dallas but Michael’s real family will always be Max, Isobel, and Sanders. Dallas might grow into being part of his family eventually, but he in no way replaces Max or should boot Max out.
Max was completely excluded by the writers from the entire alien family. Which was speaking directly to his worst fears, and they barely even used it as a plot device. He had one throw away line to Alex about them building a new family without him. One in which he was immediately guilt tripped into feeling bad for thinking that way. When the appropriate response would be acknowledging how he felt and then presenting how that was just his fear.
So the writers screwed him over in the family department which was totally unfair, as Max’s defining traits are that he is in love with Liz and that his family matters the most. Like he told Liz back in season one, his family trumps everything else even her. So this season was brutal for his character, even baring the entire trauma induced by his body being stolen and facing the fact he isn’t an original person.
Furthermore, the show attempted at least once to unwrite the traumas dealt to him as a child. As if they could forgive the people who traumatized him easily. Trying to justify their actions and claim any distrust or hate he felt towards them would be unjustified.
The best focus they writer’s gave his character this season was his single mindedness on getting Liz back. His only faltering step being when he wrote his second letter to her between 3x02 and 3x03.
His fear of science seems to be the other focus they took this season, which I also enjoyed. They used it at first as another hindrance to Echo, before presenting his love for Liz to actually being the solution to his fear. In 3x13 they showed how focusing on her let the science melt into the background. Which was beautiful symbolism and a great start for their journey as a couple next season.
Lastly, I am very certain that Jones hitched a ride in his body at the end. His hands were all over him as he ‘died’. Which will continue to build on Max’s unfocused trauma, pushing him further and further towards the breaking point. Which could be the emphasis on him burning his letters instead of addressing them. It could be symbolism on how he keeps trying to push forward, instead of looking his trauma in the face. Which he mentioned he was going to try and stop doing to Michael at the diner? and it never came back up after he confronted Jones?
So I’m hoping he gets better treatment next season, and that his twin can remind him he is part of their family triad or no (because it’s like the show forgot Isobel and him are twins whether or not by DNA)
I'm an adoptee and the phrase "real family" is triggering. The family I grew up with is just as much my real family as my biological one. I was very very annoyed with the show's handling of Max with regards to Max, Michael and Isobel. But, Jones did have a line in 3x12 to Michael that made me think the show is mostly unintentional in their sidelining of Max but that is what happens when plot takes precedence over character like in RNM. In 3x12, when Michael said that Jones killed his family (Jones' triad) for power, Jones replied that they (his triad/family) held Jones back like Max and Isobel do to Michael. It's not much but the show sees Max, Michael and Isobel as a triad and a family. They're just iffy with it depending on which writer is handling the episode after the intro of triads and Dallas. Much like instant biology didn't make a difference when it came to Jones and Michael's relationship or even Max and Jones relationship, it shouldn't make a difference to the history and the found family between the pod squad. Even if Jones was the nicest man in the universe, there is no such thing as instant family especially for grown adults. It's not realistic.
I just think the writer of that episode messed up with the real family line because that's not how I saw the remaining episodes play out. On a practical note, Dallas is a recurring character. He's never going to take Max's place in the pod squad. It's practically not possible. Case in point, he was injured and he wasn't present during the final fight with Jones. Jones died because of 4 people. Jones was shot by Liz. Isobel warned Michael. Michael used his TK and put a shard in Max's hands. Max stabbed Jones. Isobel, Michael, and Max worked in conjunction with each other to kill Jones after Liz's initial gunshot. That's a triad working together. Their parents being a triad and pre-ordaining for their kids is the opposite of being a chosen family.
At the end, they had Max be the one to officially invite and include Dallas in their family though and this works for the found family theme because nothing Max does or is has been pre-ordained by Jones, Nora, Louise, or Theo. He's a wildcard to anything they expected.
After 3 seasons, it's kind of easy to see how RNM works. It's been 3 seasons and Alex only just had a scene with one of Michael's siblings. Now, they have tons of new characters introduced while supporting characters like Kyle, Rosa, and Maria are still waiting for more development. To say nothing of Max who was sidelined this season.
I just want to highlight what you said about triads being chosen family (RNM 3X13). Like you said, it's not the ones your parents have chosen for you. It's very true. Jones called Max, Iz, and Michael a triad for what it's worth.
On the topic of this I don’t think the idea was to have Dallas replace Max, it was more of a dissatisfaction in the accidentally removing him further from his family. Since it would be very damaging to his mental health and positive views of himself. They made him express dissatisfaction with not being part of the triad only to sip it all away because Jones was defeated.
Obviously the show won’t be removing Max he is the second main, but his story was butchered no matter how accidentally. They of course did a very similar thing with a lot of other characters (Kyle, Maria, and at times Liz).
On a side note, it will be very interesting to see how they handle the triad situation. After this and an anon pointed out that Jones kind of referenced Max being the third in the triad I started wondering if it’s all a mix up. Like if Isobel and Michael assumed Dallas was part of their triad, because Theo said ‘I hope’ that you can form one. Because they already unconsciously made one with Max. Which would make the careless writing surrounding this entire thing look more like leaving information out for dramatic effect (not that they did much with Max and it this season). But season four could be all set up for Max to learn he is part of their triad, and for Dallas’ connection with Rosa to come back into play.
Don't worry. I didn't think you were negative towards Dallas at all. I just mentioned the practicality of the cast billing because that's the reality that influences what's onscreen. I'm neutral on Dallas and Heath. They're there. But I'm interested in them to see how their inclusion affects the characters we've seen for three seasons. To a certain degree, I view all the characters as functions of what the writers are doing and their status as lead, supporting, or recurring tbh. Max's story was butchered but from my vantage point of how I mentioned I view the characters, I still thought it was funny that they treated him as the second lead by having his conversations with Alex and Dallas be about him and they let him stab Jones as the final word on Jones. He also got to be one to officially include Dallas. The finale felt more tight in the family regard so kudos to that writer. The RNM script coordinator is the one who needs to make sure the scripts are cohesive despite having different writers for each episode and this isn't the only time they've failed in doing that. *cough cough* Alex's inclusion.
so on the topic of Max’s journey this season I want to get this one out really fast. THE LETTERS! Look I get it, they wanted him to move on and show him going forward, however they have to pick one way to do so and stay consistent throughout the show. For example, Liz had to come to peace with her past this season in order to move forward and save Max. She had to look her ugly past and strive for perfection in the face and swallow that nasty pill.
While Max’s character for the sake of moving on burns the very thing that would help him to do so. Creating another barrier in his mental health. But this could just be me upset, cause I wanted a cute pod squad moment where he gave them the letters.
His character focus seemed to be on his phobia of science as well as his expression of longing to be just a regular guy from Roswell. Another journey straight from season one, as he told Liz he was just a guy from Roswell in the pilot. This journey for him felt more stilted then Liz’s, as they tried to bandaid his fear of science at the end.
His character felt sidelined this season, even with the idea that labor issues were involved as well as all the editing for have him and Jones to share scenes. But, he felt less prevalent than Elena in TVD. Which could be just due to the 13 vs 23 episode seasons.
My personal issues with his character this season was the fact he was sidelined inside his own family. Michael’s line to Alex in the couch ‘you helped me find my real family’ made my blood actually boil. Because Alex might have helped them find Dallas but Michael’s real family will always be Max, Isobel, and Sanders. Dallas might grow into being part of his family eventually, but he in no way replaces Max or should boot Max out.
Max was completely excluded by the writers from the entire alien family. Which was speaking directly to his worst fears, and they barely even used it as a plot device. He had one throw away line to Alex about them building a new family without him. One in which he was immediately guilt tripped into feeling bad for thinking that way. When the appropriate response would be acknowledging how he felt and then presenting how that was just his fear.
So the writers screwed him over in the family department which was totally unfair, as Max’s defining traits are that he is in love with Liz and that his family matters the most. Like he told Liz back in season one, his family trumps everything else even her. So this season was brutal for his character, even baring the entire trauma induced by his body being stolen and facing the fact he isn’t an original person.
Furthermore, the show attempted at least once to unwrite the traumas dealt to him as a child. As if they could forgive the people who traumatized him easily. Trying to justify their actions and claim any distrust or hate he felt towards them would be unjustified.
The best focus they writer’s gave his character this season was his single mindedness on getting Liz back. His only faltering step being when he wrote his second letter to her between 3x02 and 3x03.
His fear of science seems to be the other focus they took this season, which I also enjoyed. They used it at first as another hindrance to Echo, before presenting his love for Liz to actually being the solution to his fear. In 3x13 they showed how focusing on her let the science melt into the background. Which was beautiful symbolism and a great start for their journey as a couple next season.
Lastly, I am very certain that Jones hitched a ride in his body at the end. His hands were all over him as he ‘died’. Which will continue to build on Max’s unfocused trauma, pushing him further and further towards the breaking point. Which could be the emphasis on him burning his letters instead of addressing them. It could be symbolism on how he keeps trying to push forward, instead of looking his trauma in the face. Which he mentioned he was going to try and stop doing to Michael at the diner? and it never came back up after he confronted Jones?
So I’m hoping he gets better treatment next season, and that his twin can remind him he is part of their family triad or no (because it’s like the show forgot Isobel and him are twins whether or not by DNA)
I'm an adoptee and the phrase "real family" is triggering. The family I grew up with is just as much my real family as my biological one. I was very very annoyed with the show's handling of Max with regards to Max, Michael and Isobel. But, Jones did have a line in 3x12 to Michael that made me think the show is mostly unintentional in their sidelining of Max but that is what happens when plot takes precedence over character like in RNM. In 3x12, when Michael said that Jones killed his family (Jones' triad) for power, Jones replied that they (his triad/family) held Jones back like Max and Isobel do to Michael. It's not much but the show sees Max, Michael and Isobel as a triad and a family. They're just iffy with it depending on which writer is handling the episode after the intro of triads and Dallas. Much like instant biology didn't make a difference when it came to Jones and Michael's relationship or even Max and Jones relationship, it shouldn't make a difference to the history and the found family between the pod squad. Even if Jones was the nicest man in the universe, there is no such thing as instant family especially for grown adults. It's not realistic.
I just think the writer of that episode messed up with the real family line because that's not how I saw the remaining episodes play out. On a practical note, Dallas is a recurring character. He's never going to take Max's place in the pod squad. It's practically not possible. Case in point, he was injured and he wasn't present during the final fight with Jones. Jones died because of 4 people. Jones was shot by Liz. Isobel warned Michael. Michael used his TK and put a shard in Max's hands. Max stabbed Jones. Isobel, Michael, and Max worked in conjunction with each other to kill Jones after Liz's initial gunshot. That's a triad working together. Their parents being a triad and pre-ordaining for their kids is the opposite of being a chosen family.
At the end, they had Max be the one to officially invite and include Dallas in their family though and this works for the found family theme because nothing Max does or is has been pre-ordained by Jones, Nora, Louise, or Theo. He's a wildcard to anything they expected.
After 3 seasons, it's kind of easy to see how RNM works. It's been 3 seasons and Alex only just had a scene with one of Michael's siblings. Now, they have tons of new characters introduced while supporting characters like Kyle, Rosa, and Maria are still waiting for more development. To say nothing of Max who was sidelined this season.
When y'all understood how stories work, we'll all be better off.
look, im just gonna say it
kyle should be the leading man of roswell new mexico, not max
If Kyle was the leading man on RNM, he would be written to be Max. He wouldn't BE Kyle because Kyle's character function is so much about shouldering everyone's burdens. If he was the lead, other people would be revolving around him while he makes choices that drive the plot. That's what it means to be a leading man.
Kyle is also the audience surrogate. It's very strong this season because he's calling everyone out when they're driving their own stories and making bad choices. Tonight, he called out Liz on her lack of ethics using everything fans said.
Yeah but everyone else thought it, because I was in the driver’s seat. Because Max put you there, yes.
YES! But also, white ass Michael and Isobel are just as culpable and it’s not cute how the fandom ignores that. The only authority Max had over Michael and Isobel was the authority they gave him. Neither had any problem sending Liz out of town when Max went to tell Liz the truth. They participated in cementing the coverup. Then, they got pissed at him 10 years later for saving Liz’s life and went to terrorize her, knowing the coverup! Like I said, the entire pod squad is culpable but to listen to Michael and Iz stans, it’s only Max’s fault and nah your mayo faves are to blame too. The show is partly to blame because it lets Michael and Isobel off the hook for this as much as it can. Not me.
This was such a good call out by the way. Rosa should never be wholly comfy with Max. Or Michael or Isobel, even the ship has sailed on the latter sigh. In fact, I want Arturo to find out, desperately. And, I want him to reassess Max. Unfortunately, Maria or Alex finding out meant shit in terms of them getting to be angry for the coverup. Maria should’ve gotten the chance to be angry on Rosa’s behalf. She loved Rosa.
Since the show made the iffy choice to have the pod squad to be at fault for the coverup, the cathartic thing to do would’ve been to have the characters who should react to that, get to react to that. That would’ve been good storytelling. Rosa’s reaction to Max should’ve just been the first step. Michael and Isobel should’ve gotten their share of anger from Rosa or Maria. Hell, Alex, Kyle, too. Rope the cast in here where it’s not peachy and keen and the humans have real trust issues with how far the aliens are willing to go. But that would require a complexity of storytelling beyond what Carina could’ve offered.
Your implicit racism is racism. The things you imply and things you accept as implicit are still racism, without you ever saying a word about race.
So here’s the thing… relationships (and ‘shipping) are not a zero-sum game.
You can recognise how important Elektra is to Matt Murdock without denying the sweetness of Matt and Karen’s friendship turned romance. You can be wistful about Claire moving on from Matt with Luke, while still loving Claire and Luke’s dynamic. You can still ‘ship Luke and Jessica like FedEx, without feeling left behind because Luke moved on with Claire. You can still love Matt and Elektra while acknowledging that it is a toxic relationship with no future for either of them. And you can revel in Karen and Frank’s friendship that may be more, without pretending how her time with Matt wasn’t real and important to them both.
Because all of these stories inform the characters, facilitate growth, play with contradictions and morality, sex for its own sake, love being both selfish and selfless.
Relationships do not need to be happy (or healthy), to be enjoyed. They do not need to be ‘built to last’, to be worth your time. It’s not about who ‘wins’, is ‘endgame’, or whatever. Not to the characters, and not to the story.
Just maybe try and remember that.
Because sometimes tunnel vision hurts you more than you realise, and you miss all the things that make the story worth telling, if you’re only interested in who makes it to the ‘happily ever after’.
Ok, but Matt and Elektra’s relationship isn’t toxic.
Um… I’m sorry, but I really have to disagree. I’m not saying it’s not complex, compelling, addictive, and tragic. It’s all of those things. But the one thing it sure as hell isn’t is healthy or beneficial for either of them. They literally destroy each other. Twice.
What’s interesting to me, regularly, is two-part: First, fandom refuses to acknowledge how there’s racial bias in how stories are written - aka comics Elektra is white and MCU Elektra is not - and WOC Elektra is literally written with ugly racial tropes about dragging a good white boy down. White comics Elektra and comics Matt/Elektra doesn’t have this happen. Her origins are story are completely rewritten when she’s a WOC. Funny, that! Second, all of Matt’s relationships are toxic. He’s toxic for Foggy and Karen. But there’s always hope that that can change or fandom just ignores that fact all together. Elektra, and Elektra/Matt however, is just hopeless. Again, funny that.
The only relationship this white centric fandom will consistently come for however is the one where Matt prioritizes a woc. This isn’t even the first time. Every time there’s a WOC that the white protagonist heavily prioritizes, this occurs.
It’s easy with Claire because the protagonist and the show literally ignored her romantically after S1. She was no threat. The issues with her relationship with Matt is how the show framed her as being emotional support and emotional labor working for Matt. And nothing else that would benefit Claire herself. That itself plays into racialized tropes for Afro-Latinx women.
Is Matt/Elektra healthy? No. Absolutely not. But idc. White ships thrive despite that. And yet, this is the time we’re going to play performative concern? Are WOC not allowed to be in ships that aren’t coffee shop AUs? Are WOC not allowed to be in ships where they are the first priority? I mean, that’s the basis for so many popular white ships after all. Do we always have do emotional labor for a white man for it to be a healthy ship?
https://mattelektras.tumblr.com/post/164419248397/people-are-so-threatened-by-how-elektra-a-woc-is
https://zisas.tumblr.com/post/183350421186/i-love-how-matt-has-tons-of-chemistry-with-two
http://candyumbrella.tumblr.com/post/143236443166/some-thoughts-on-mattelektra-and-mattkaren
“Like it’s not even IMO it’s based on the entirety of shipping history for all fandoms ever I know for a fact that fandom preference would be for Matt->Elektra in a landslide. It’s a separate question entirely from whether the ship dynamic is “healthy” or whether it’s actually something aspirational for women–regardless of whether or not it’s something actually desirable, it’s naive to ignore the fact that it’s generally what the vast majority of fandom WANTS, and that this want is telling us something important. The trope of a ship that borders on “unhealthy” because the man is ostensibly “helpless” in the face of his compulsive pull towards the woman is the basis for many of the most iconic and sought-after white woman/white man ships of all time.
Like, Matt/Elektra is the kind of ship that fandom would eat up with a spoon if Elektra were white. Of course, there are some character archetypes that are damaging when applied to Asian women in particular. But Elektra isn’t a stereotype? She’s not a typical Dragon Lady at all, IMO–she’s given depth and emotional POV and backstory, both with and outside of Matt.
And like I said above, one of the most crucial points is that her hold over Matt isn’t supernatural or artificial, it’s emotional–and that’s one of the most universally popular shipping tropes there is. In fact, Elektra’s a character type from which WoC have been excluded until now, a type that has been reserved almost entirely for white women, by virtue of their PRIVILEGE OVER US–the humanized femme fatale with a soft spot for the lead guy who in turn has a soft spot for her, like Selina Kyle in the Batman franchise. She falls into an archetype that is widely considered to be desirable for women, one in which WoC have largely been barred from enjoying and seeing themselves represented in previous years on TV, the way white women have been able to do”
https://candyumbrella.tumblr.com/post/157862946356/ive-been-trying-to-figure-out-how-to-broach-this
“…for me the same argument applies–these ships are also the kinds of ships that, until very recently, almost exclusively featured white women. Matt/Elektra is a classic setup with the femme fatale being an Achilles Heel for the male lead–not only that, she’s his First Love, his Forever Love, his “I can’t shake you” love, his “I will run away with you” love, and so obviously his clear #1 romantic choice. Bamon is a White Bad Boy ship that combines many of fandom’s favorite shippy tropes. And they’re both argued against on the basis of the ships being “unhealthy” or “bad for” the WoC in the ship (either bad for her within the story itself or bad representation.) And whether or not there’s a case to be made there (I’d argue that the issue is more complicated than it’s often made out to be in fandom conversations–still, putting that aside for now), my point is that WoC are only rarely in such ships for a reason, and that reason isn’t because we have it so much better than white women. So it’s one thing for WoC to choose to embrace or reject these ships on their own initiative, but it’s quite another for white women in the audience to dictate on moral grounds that we SHOULD all collectively reject them, when they’re speaking from a place of having had that CHOICE, and being able to make it based on a lifetime of experience being represented in such ships, which has thus far been denied to us.”
I’m only reblogging for @zisas commentary. I’m glad this show is cancelled because I am tired of people ignoring the racism in the show and ignoring Elektra’s racist tropes, which was ofc in contrast to Karen’s superior white womanhood. White womanhood, and its inherent goodness that nothing can erase - I’m definitely over it in real life with that white female cop who got coddled by law enforcement and her victim’s family and I’m over seeing it in fandom.
Please don’t put other fans’ opinions of Elektra on me. And I never sainted Karen and vilified Elektra. or in any way implied the toxicity in Matt and Elektra’s relationship wasn’t as much if not more due to Matt, than Elektra, and how the the series revamped her backstory with Stick and the Hand.
I know that there’s a lot of racist trope bullshit going on with both Daredevil s2 and Defenders. But I am in no way defending it, or refusing to challenge it. What I have always objected to was people pitting parts of fandom against one another over ‘ships instead of recognising that nobody ‘wins’ that game. Not the characters; not the fans. All it does is further divide the community, and in unhealthy ways.
Also, Karen and Matt’s relationship is just as fucked because they’re in love with the idea of one another and who they could be–not who the other person actually is. Which Matt and Elektra suffer from as well. Those relationships are doomed unless they grow and change. Doesn’t mean I support Matt/Karen over Matt/Elektra. Matt’s a human disaster who was on the road to self-immolation from the end of s2 onward, and I wouldn’t do that to any female lead I love, or even the ones I only like.
Racebending Elektra demanded viewing the character through the lens of a French-Vietnamese actor and being conscious of the dangerous and ugly tropes to avoid, and tbh they failed a whole lot in that regard. Revamping her origin to remove her agency and have her life controlled by first Stick and then Sigourney Weaver, two white characters with so much orientalism going on I don’t know wtf anybody was thinking and choose to believe they weren’t. Making an Asian girl a tool of both the Chaste and the Hand was fucked up in ways that they just didn’t think through, particularly the sex trade parallels, and I don’t forgive the writers for that massive lapse in judgement.
So yeah, you can tell a white woman wrote those two posts, and this one too. And yeah, I’m just as guilty of not unpacking how systemic racism programmed me to view woc like Claire and Madani, and racebent characters like Elektra and Colleen differently. But I am not interested in fanning the flames between fans of Karen versus fans of Elektra, or handwaving Matt’s own bullshit because he’s a pretty white boy. If that’s genuinely your read on my posts, then I clearly fucked up.
How about I try to be better and accept I need to be better, and you not quote a bunch of people who aren’t me in a direct reply to me from a 3 year old reaction post that popped up in tracked tags with no context due to being isolated from the specific events within the community that were taking place at the time?
I’ve no problem being called out on my bullshit, when my head is clearly up my ass and should fucking well know better.
But I do have a problem being held responsible for/my views being equated with other people’s bullshit.
I’ll call out implied racism anytime I feel like it. Two WOC read your post and saw it because of the double standards this fandom consistently has with Elektra and her relationship with a white man, over said white man’s relationships with virtually every other person. You only felt the need to police how fans react to Matt/Elektra’s relationship though so what’s that about?
Fandom is still for white people because y’all apparently “get” it according to this post but you still validate white supremacist stories. I don’t care if you suddenly get it when you’re called out on it. I don’t care. If you got it, you wouldn’t have dallied in racist talking points in the first place.
@taraljc I don’t know whom you’re exactly replying to, but if it’s me, I never said you sainted Karen nor did I discuss Karen v Elektra. My post was about Matt’s relationships and I don’t think I singled out Karen other than one mention of her amongst others. My post was about fandom’s double standards. My post was about fandom ignoring the racist context Elektra worked in. And I suppose you never showed this insight about racist double standards when you were doing it so, forgive me for taking your original post and its implications at face value.
And, if you’re talking to me, I addressed the implications in your post. You literally only attached negative aspersions to one ship, the interracial one with the most valued* white male protagonist who prioritizes a woc, and I addressed that. I’m not brand new - I’ve seen this reaction to nearly every interracial ship with a woc who is prioritized and it never ever matters if they’re the purest ship in the universe or not. It still happens.
Matt’s other ships don’t get policed in the way that the ONLY DD ship where a white male protagonist is focusing on and performing emotional labor on a woman, a woc, does. Ships where white men, unhealthily even, focus on white women are incredibly popular. And yet, this is the time , we’re going to play performative concern about how people can ship it? A white woman who gets to see themselves loved and the focus of desire in literally every piece of media is going to tell me that? I’m sorry but no. And as a WOC, I’ve had more than enough of white women telling us shit like that. It’s literally not your place.
*We won’t be sitting here pretending like white male characters aren’t more valuable and more prioritized in fandom
If you parrot the talking points of a racist story, does that make you a racist?
If you parrot the talking points of a racist story after poc tell you why it’s racist, does that make you a racist?
IMO, yes to both. People think racism begins and ends at an active action harming a poc or at a racial slur. But that’s not all racism is. Complicity, microaggressions, normalization are all rungs in the racism ladder.
And the truth is, if you enjoy the privileges brought about by white supremacy, you have learned things that need to be actively unlearned. You are racist from the start and that has to be actively torn down by you. This also goes for nbpoc who’ve learned anti-blackness. This tenet applies to other vectors of oppression such as class, gender, and heteronormativity as well. The things we learn have to be actively unlearned, especially when we enjoy the fruits of what area we have privilege in.
I know this is little late but I was going through the Defenders tag on your blog and I want to clear up misconceptions on the problems the Daredevil fandom had with Matt and Elektra. Elektra encouraged violent and ugly sides in Matt that he was fighting to suppress. As a result, he wrecked his relationships with Foggy and Karen, and basically ruined his life just to be with her. Their relationship was mutually destructive and ended with them kissing under a soon-to-be-exploding building.
I mean it’s always something I guess? When a ship involving a character of color is healthy, fandom considers them boring and the destructive white ships to be hotter. When the canon ship is destructive, they’re unpopular because they’re destructive and the healthy white ship is so much better. (Is Matt/Frank really healthier than Matt/Elektra though?) I haven’t seen Daredevil or the Defenders and can’t speak to the specifics, I just find it interesting that there’s always a reason for fandom to dislike interracial ships.
It was a case of a white comics character (Elektra) racebent to be Asian and then getting her backstory and her relationship with a white boy (Matt) changed from its comics canon. The changes were 100% racialized. Then, Elektra was contrasted against Karen’s white womanhood. You can imagine how that went. It’s a white supremacist narrative the show sold and the white-centered fandom ate it up hook line and sinker.
So here’s the thing… relationships (and ‘shipping) are not a zero-sum game.
You can recognise how important Elektra is to Matt Murdock without denying the sweetness of Matt and Karen’s friendship turned romance. You can be wistful about Claire moving on from Matt with Luke, while still loving Claire and Luke’s dynamic. You can still ‘ship Luke and Jessica like FedEx, without feeling left behind because Luke moved on with Claire. You can still love Matt and Elektra while acknowledging that it is a toxic relationship with no future for either of them. And you can revel in Karen and Frank’s friendship that may be more, without pretending how her time with Matt wasn’t real and important to them both.
Because all of these stories inform the characters, facilitate growth, play with contradictions and morality, sex for its own sake, love being both selfish and selfless.
Relationships do not need to be happy (or healthy), to be enjoyed. They do not need to be ‘built to last’, to be worth your time. It’s not about who ‘wins’, is ‘endgame’, or whatever. Not to the characters, and not to the story.
Just maybe try and remember that.
Because sometimes tunnel vision hurts you more than you realise, and you miss all the things that make the story worth telling, if you’re only interested in who makes it to the 'happily ever after’.
Ok, but Matt and Elektra’s relationship isn’t toxic.
Um… I’m sorry, but I really have to disagree. I’m not saying it’s not complex, compelling, addictive, and tragic. It’s all of those things. But the one thing it sure as hell isn’t is healthy or beneficial for either of them. They literally destroy each other. Twice.
What’s interesting to me, regularly, is two-part: First, fandom refuses to acknowledge how there’s racial bias in how stories are written - aka comics Elektra is white and MCU Elektra is not - and WOC Elektra is literally written with ugly racial tropes about dragging a good white boy down. White comics Elektra and comics Matt/Elektra doesn’t have this happen. Her origins and story are completely rewritten when she’s a WOC. Comics Matt/Elektra never ever have themes of destroying each other or even being bad for each other. Funny how that changed when Elektra wasn't white anymore. Second, all of Matt’s relationships are toxic. He’s toxic for Foggy and Karen. But there’s always hope that that can change or fandom just ignores that fact all together. Elektra, and Elektra/Matt however, is just hopeless. Again, funny that.
The only relationship this white centric fandom will consistently come for however is the one where Matt prioritizes a woc. This isn’t even the first time. Every time there’s a WOC that the white protagonist heavily prioritizes, this occurs.
It’s easy with Claire because the protagonist and the show literally ignored her romantically after S1. She was no threat. The issues with her relationship with Matt is how the show framed her as being emotional support and emotional labor working for Matt. And nothing else that would benefit Claire herself. That itself plays into racialized tropes for Afro-Latinx women.
Is Matt/Elektra healthy? Absolutely not. But idc. White ships thrive despite that. Matt's other ships certainly don't get policed in the way that the ONLY DD ship where a white male protagonist is focusing on and performing emotional labor on a woman, a woc, does. Ships where white men, unhealthily even, focus on white women are incredibly popular. And yet, this is the time , we’re going to play performative concern about how people can ship it? A white woman is going to tell me how I can love a ship that's built to be contrasted with the elevation of white womanhood that is Matt/Karen? I don't think so. If WOC swallowed whole what racist narratives were trying to insinuate, we would be left with barely anything. Are WOC not allowed to be in ships that aren’t coffee shop AUs? Are WOC not allowed to be in ships where they are the first priority? I mean, that’s the basis for so many popular white ships after all. Do woc always have do emotional labor for a white man for it to be a healthy ship?
https://mattelektras.tumblr.com/post/164419248397/people-are-so-threatened-by-how-elektra-a-woc-is
https://zisas.tumblr.com/post/183350421186/i-love-how-matt-has-tons-of-chemistry-with-two
http://candyumbrella.tumblr.com/post/143236443166/some-thoughts-on-mattelektra-and-mattkaren
“Like it’s not even IMO it’s based on the entirety of shipping history for all fandoms ever I know for a fact that fandom preference would be for Matt->Elektra in a landslide. It’s a separate question entirely from whether the ship dynamic is “healthy” or whether it’s actually something aspirational for women–regardless of whether or not it’s something actually desirable, it’s naive to ignore the fact that it’s generally what the vast majority of fandom WANTS, and that this want is telling us something important. The trope of a ship that borders on “unhealthy” because the man is ostensibly “helpless” in the face of his compulsive pull towards the woman is the basis for many of the most iconic and sought-after white woman/white man ships of all time.
Like, Matt/Elektra is the kind of ship that fandom would eat up with a spoon if Elektra were white[...]
And like I said above, one of the most crucial points is that her hold over Matt isn’t supernatural or artificial, it’s emotional–and that’s one of the most universally popular shipping tropes there is. In fact, Elektra’s a character type from which WoC have been excluded until now, a type that has been reserved almost entirely for white women, by virtue of their PRIVILEGE OVER US–the humanized femme fatale with a soft spot for the lead guy who in turn has a soft spot for her, like Selina Kyle in the Batman franchise. She falls into an archetype that is widely considered to be desirable for women, one in which WoC have largely been barred from enjoying and seeing themselves represented in previous years on TV, the way white women have been able to do”
https://candyumbrella.tumblr.com/post/157862946356/ive-been-trying-to-figure-out-how-to-broach-this
“...for me the same argument applies–these ships are also the kinds of ships that, until very recently, almost exclusively featured white women[...]My point is that WoC are only rarely in such ships for a reason, and that reason isn’t because we have it so much better than white women. So it’s one thing for WoC to choose to embrace or reject these ships on their own initiative, but it’s quite another for white women in the audience to dictate on moral grounds that we SHOULD all collectively reject them, when they’re speaking from a place of having had that CHOICE, and being able to make it based on a lifetime of experience being represented in such ships, which has thus far been denied to us.”
The thing that gets me the most is that marvel spent the whole first two seasons of Daredevil explaining how both parts of Matt’s life were important to him in different ways and then as soon as Elektra was brought in had him throw away everything that was ever important to him, everything he ever worked for, including his role as Daredevil just to die in some pit for a psychopath who wanted to destroy his city for her own gain.
Fan of white war criminal and serial killer Frank Castle says what? And she didn’t want to destroy his city for her own gain; she was barely herself in that pit. But go and keep on with the MCU klandom and continue to woobify your white serial killers and don’t spare a moment for WOC who’re barely themselves after a damn resurrection.
i did the kent test on TITANS and uh it scores as a four which is middle to fair rep for women of color (particularly black women since anna is the central rep of the series). lemme tell you what titans failed at:
D. Must not solely be included in the narrative to prop up a White female character. – kory certainly sacrificed a lot of herself for rachel. kory gave up knowing who she is for rachel’s safety, and this summarization is going to sound strange, but her losing her memories was a direct result of physical trauma from being weakened via lack of solar energy. the fact that after rachel “healed” her (physical trauma/concussion), and donna hurt her again (remember, she was still in a weakened state). she had a pretty decent idea of who she was, and the reason she was on earth, but the full gist of it meant gaining her emotions and those emotions meant she didnt have the connection she had with rachel. she knew that. she chose to give that up (which meant give up the reason she came to earth) for rachel. that’s a pretty big sacrifice.
G. Must not be the go-to character “sacrifice” in a film/piece of media – she died in the finale (yes, it was a dream, no im not forgiving Hatem for making that decision in his writing. he could have found another way for dick to give into his darkness without making kory a matyr)
somewhat F. Must have at least one interaction with another woman/femme of color. – because while there were no central women of color who kory interacted with there were background women of color who she interacted with.
i cant do doom patrol cause only 4/15 episodes have been aired but hopefully jane interacts with more women of color.
Well, maybe once I remember who I am and you figure out who you’re going to be maybe we try it again sometime.
Matt Murdock ever wanting to kill Elektra Natchios regardless of anything she’s done is unrealistic. Some of y’all really need to look at how you talk and write about WOC who don’t fit into the safe acceptable boxes for what WOC are allowed to be and who the white boy favorite loves. If the only way you can get Matt to move on fully is by killing her or by bringing her back as a “villain” in order for him to reject her, issa a fail.
Elektra deserves better than this trash white centric fandom that can empathize with people far worse than her (cough Frank) but can’t extend her that level of consideration. SHE’S insane and can’t change ofc.
i love how matt has tons of chemistry with two white guys and tons of chemistry with two women of color but they still tried to push the “white heteronormativity” thing down our throats.
it didn’t work out — both karen and matt had more chemistry with a spotlight than with each other — and i do hope they won’t try to force the romance between karen & matt in dds3 when what they need to do is fixed their already strained friendship.
i mean, come one, we all need foggy/matt/karen dynamics back! the golden trio needs to be back!
concerning iron fist, i don’t ship danny/colleen (i mean, claire/colleen was just so beautiful, i was too focused on them to see the chemistry between colleen and danny) but i do support the biracial danny/colleen relationship.
(as long as they don’t try to put 616!dannymisty on screen, i’m good. dannymisty wouldn’t do on the screen, trust me. let this ship for the comics.)
(i was even rooting for jess/luke but that one was doomed from the start on the show. at least, this shit isn’t dead in the comics and dani-future-captain-america-jones/cage exists.)
and while claire/matt would have been great (???), claire made some smart choice…. she ain’t dealing with this DD crap on a daily basis (but poor girl, she’s dealing with super powered people all the time now, but at least, she made peace with it).
so back on my biracial stuff, yeah, matt is totally into elektra who is not white (and god bless élodie for being so perfect and so woke and so good at portraying the complexity of elektra’s character) and they do make a super badass and biracial power couple and they have tons of chemistry and i just want it.
call it crazy or toxic or whatever but it’s more diverse than what we have in the mcu and that’s what i deserve. i want my diversity.
and a girl can help herself but wonder if people would have been more into mattelektra if elektra was white… hmmm.
I think the lack of Matt/Elektra is more how unhealthy the relationship can be for Matt, i mean the love is there and strong, everything is there but….but…but….its not a healthy relationship and i totes agree with you on Matt/Karen blegh lol I like Karen/Frank Castle tho, even if its just platonic :) I remeber when they tried Karen/Foggy too and the chemistry just…not there guys
I don’t like the “how unhealthy the relationship can be for Matt” (even if I see where you’re coming from with this)— as if Elektra was the sole problem in his life.
Matt already has issues.
Matt himself is unhealthy. Background check; he puts on the suit, goes out in the dead night, and walks around NY to find some bad guys to beat up. He lies about everything, all the time, he pushes people away because he wants to protect them and/or because they can’t really accept him for what/who is which is their choice. That’s his doing, not Elektra’s.
Elektra is very manipulative. I can’t disagree. I mean, she is that good. She learnt well.
But apart from being what she was taught to be, Elektra is also a person and this is how Matt ultimately sees her. Matt sees her as a person and not as an object unlike Stick(—it may be endearing when he calls Elektra “Ellie” but at the end of day, he was so manipulative and abusive towards her, I want to scream).
Matt tries so hard for Elektra. He wants her to embrace the goodness in her. Matt wants her to see the light inside her; as tiny as the light can be, he wants her to see it. He truly believes in her, and he ultimately believes she is more than she was taught. Matt wants her to embrace her humanity.
In parallel, Elektra wants Matt to embrace his darkness. She is the only one who accepts Matthew as both Matt and Daredevil. Matt has never been good at acknowledging and accepting both parts of his life. He saw how Foggy reacted when he found out about Matt being DD, so Matt chose the easy way out and just lied, and lied and kept lying. Elektra didn’t make him do that. As a grown ass man, he decided that on his own, and he ruined all his relationships with the people he cares about.
However, the only time he felt accepted for who he truly was was when Elektra was around, so him feeling free and alive around Elektra ultimately caused some of his darkness to come out, but this darkness was already there. (I told you, that boy has issues).
Then Elektra died and Matt kept lying. He legit lied to Karen (tbh, he wasn’t even honest with her when Elektra was still alive—that apartment scene—Karen deserved so much better) when she asked him about DD, about if he missed being DD, he said no, when he truly felt like yeah, I missed being DD, but s’cool, no worries.
When he said “Elektra. Yeah, I do miss her”, what he meant was he misses her, he misses who he was when he was around her, he misses the feelings of freedom and happiness that she brought out of him.
Damn, all I can say is they’re good for each other because they just want the other to embrace themselves, no matter how dark or bright that self can be. But I can’t say they’re healthy because nothing about what they do is healthy!(Like chill a bit, stop going out to beat people up or stop stabbing people, ffs).
Honestly, Matt needs therapy and so does Elektra.
As for, Frank and Karen, they have mad chemistry and I want more. The whites™️ are it again giving me unwanted feels and emotions.
You really deconstructed the in story argument about “it’s not healthy for Matt” but I want to mention an out of story fact: do you know how many unhealthy white ships are insanely popular? Do not tell me that the reason people don’t ship Matt/Elektra as much as they should is because it’s unhealthy. I’ve been in many fandoms for 20 years and that’s not it. The most widely popular relationship in Smallville for example was Clark/Lex. The most popular relationship on TVD was Delena, Klaroline, etc. I can go on. And I see a lot of BIPOC ship Matt/Elektra. That shouldn’t mean anything but it does because BIPOC are going to have less internalized biases than white people about POC.
And frankly all of Matt’ relationships are unhealthy because Matt is unhealthy. I guarantee Matt’s behavior has not been healthy for Foggy or Karen, especially Foggy. When you shift the view point to someone other than Matt, you see that, in many ways, Matt is Foggy’s Elektra. Matt isn’t healthy for Foggy but no one says it because people center Matt’s feelings.
An excerpt from an amazing blog that deconstructs fandoms. I’d recommend their Tobin analysis - it’s pretty amazing. This time, they took on Matt/Elektra. The whole post is good and interesting but this is the part I wanted to highlight because they argue about how fandoms normally react:
http://candyumbrella.tumblr.com/post/143236443166/some-thoughts-on-mattelektra-and-mattkaren
...What makes Daredevil unusual is that it gives the most desired position in the show’s shipping setup (as defined by fandom’s usual preferences) to a woman who isn’t white. This stands in stark contrast to the many examples of WhiteMan-WhiteWoman-WomanOfColor triangles or pseudo-triangles on television where it’s built into the structure of the triangle that the white man, through his actions and choices and preferences, explicitly romantically validates and elevates the white woman above the WoC, in a way that outright hurts the WoC either emotionally or physically or both. Examples include Finn/Clarke/Raven on The 100 or The Salvatores/Elena/Bonnie in the early seasons of The Vampire Diaries. Moreover, white fandom generally enjoys such ship dynamics for this very reason, and actively uses them to prop their white faves at the expense of the WoC in the triangle, whilst ostensibly “shipping” the two women together and talking about how much the women “love” each other and are “sisters.” It says a lot about the state of Matt/Elektra/Karen in canon that AFAICT, white feminists in Daredevil fandom have not been able to take this barely-disguised, smugly condescending and patronizing route with Karen and Elektra. Instead, their dislike of Elektra is far more obviously apparent from the get-go: they mostly concentrate on “how bad Elektra is for Matt,” and they’re certainly not interested in “loving” Elektra, they see her as a threat and react to her with hostility. And IMO there is no greater evidence of the show itself treating Elektra more seriously and genuinely as a contender for Matt’s affections, than this lack of enthusiasm or “love” for Elektra from many parts of white fandom.
...From where I’m standing, Elektra embodies what fandom WANTS MOST for its female faves when it comes to shipping, i.e. the woman who can fuck up a guy’s life because he’s so deeply in love with her, whereas Karen was relegated far more to the Relationship-Of-Convenience role? To put it bluntly, in this case the WoC “won” over the White Girl in the shipping stakes because the guy was more into her. Um. You know? What I’m saying is that I don’t necessarily agree with this definition of “winning,” but even if we take this as a measuring stick (and it can’t be denied that almost the entirety of fandom does), I don’t think Daredevil shafted Elektra for Karen, if anything it was the opposite.
What I’m trying to say is that if someone had a female fave, a GENUINE female fave and not a proppy second-best “fave,” and you asked them what they wanted more for that fave shipping-wise, Matt->Elektra or Matt->Karen, then Matt->Elektra would win in a landslide. Like it’s not even IMO it’s based on the entirety of shipping history for all fandoms ever I know for a fact that fandom preference would be for Matt->Elektra in a landslide. It’s a separate question entirely from whether the ship dynamic is “healthy” or whether it’s actually something aspirational for women–regardless of whether or not it’s something actually desirable, it’s naive to ignore the fact that it’s generally what the vast majority of fandom WANTS, and that this want is telling us something important. The trope of a ship that borders on “unhealthy” because the man is ostensibly “helpless” in the face of his compulsive pull towards the woman is the basis for many of the most iconic and sought-after white woman/white man ships of all time.
Like, Matt/Elektra is the kind of ship that fandom would eat up with a spoon if Elektra were white. Of course, there are some character archetypes that are damaging when applied to Asian women in particular. But Elektra isn’t a stereotype? She’s not a typical Dragon Lady at all, IMO–she’s given depth and emotional POV and backstory, both with and outside of Matt. And like I said above, one of the most crucial points is that her hold over Matt isn’t supernatural or artificial, it’s emotional–and that’s one of the most universally popular shipping tropes there is. In fact, Elektra’s a character type from which WoC have been excluded until now, a type that has been reserved almost entirely for white women, by virtue of their PRIVILEGE OVER US–the humanized femme fatale with a soft spot for the lead guy who in turn has a soft spot for her, like Selina Kyle in the Batman franchise. She falls into an archetype that is widely considered to be desirable for women, one in which WoC have largely been barred from enjoying and seeing themselves represented in previous years on TV, the way white women have been able to do. So I wanted to put this out there as a somewhat different take on Matt/Elektra from what I’ve seen so far in fandom.