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KRIS AND CARD KINGDOM

Gonna be a hopefully more succinct post from me than usual, detailing some evidence for a theory that came to me a while ago.

(Don't click off the post yet.)

To cut to the chase, I think Kris may have created Card Kingdom's Dark Fountain, and possibly Castle Town's Grand Fountain too. Below I'll discuss the evidence for why I believe this is possible and maybe even probable.

If this theory ends up not being true, I still think this post will have some value as a work of analysis, since Kris's connections to Card Kingdom have been fairly underdiscussed in the community, and I think they go well beyond mere coincidence.

"King on your side"

The foundational piece of evidence comes in Chapter 3, when Ramb says:

* Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and that girl had everyone here lined up. * Queen on her side, King on your side, Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS! * Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home just to play make believe. * ... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright. Everyone changes. 'cept us.

This is obviously an incredibly important piece of dialogue, because it contextualizes the previous Dark Worlds (and this one) as a heightened, supernatural continuation of a game of make-believe which the Dreemurrs and Holidays used to play together as children.

Taking into account the deliberately ambiguous identity of the girl, the fact that Kris and Dess (the Knight) are working together to create Dark Worlds, and the way Dess's shadow looms over this chapter in general, I personally think it's pretty clear that Ramb is referring to Dess here.

Now, a lot of people disagree with that and think the girl is supposed to be Noelle, and I think that's clearly the impression you're initially meant to have. But the way I see it, it's setting up a future recontextualization of this line, where you come back to it later with a better understanding of the nature of Kris and Dess's relationship.

There are some reasonable arguments you could make for it being Noelle - chiefly people tend to say that it's implausible Kris would be playing with an older kid like Dess. In response I'd point to the fact that Dess is shown to have a interest in make-believe, imagination and play - as demonstrated by her interest in ICE-E cryptid hunting - to a perhaps unusual degree for her age.

Also, the age gap between Kris/Noelle and their older siblings is likely not that big in the first place - certainly it was not big enough to stop them all from hanging out together, which we know happened frequently. In fact, it's repeatedly implied that Asriel and Noelle were also involved in this game, so it's less that Kris and Dess had some sort of secret game together and more that the Dreemurr and Holiday kids were involved with a shared fictional setting they liked to play in.

* HAHAHA!!! WHAT IS THIS COMPUTER WALLPAPER??? * What AGE did you and your brother draw this at!? * Glad we didn't go to THIS Cyber World! Haha, what the hell? * Hey, and in the corner, that's that cat thing from Castle Town! * You know, the shop thing! The... cat... the stitch thing! Whatever.

This interaction in Chapter 4 reveals that Asriel's computer wallpaper is apparently a drawing him and Kris made together depicting the fictional setting of the make-believe game, with Seam in the corner. Seam, who's a Card Kingdom character, being singled out in this interaction may be further emphasizing the idea that Kris and Azzy were in charge of the "Card Kingdom part" of the setting.

* Dude, what's your favorite horror movie? * Bet you like the one with the creepy doll… * HUH? Your brother never wanted to watch them? * What, was he like, oooo, I'll make the popcorn! * Then just never came back? * HAHAHAHA? What, was I right???

However, this Chapter 5 interaction hints at something important: whereas Kris and Dess were into dark and creepy stuff, Azzy was decidedly not, and Noelle could only enjoy it under Dess's supervision. And judging by the wiffle bat anecdotes, Dess sought to keep Noelle from the dark, to protect her from it.

* Wait! You're teasing me, aren't you, Kris? * L-like when you told me ICE-E was real and eats kids... * So Dess smacked you with a wiffle bat 'til you stopped lying.

Even though Dess seemingly earnestly believed that ICE-E was a real cryptid, she still smacks and scolds Kris for "lying" and involving Noelle by telling her that. With increased anecdotes of Kris and Dess in the past, along with their current day Knight-alliance, and moments like the 1225 maze in Kris's TV World and the hands which press against Kris's to push them back in the Final Prophecy room, Kris and Dess are increasingly being set up as having had a special relationship; though all four Dreemurr and Holiday kids played together and were good friends, it seems that Dess and Kris specifically were the most actively imaginative, rascally and interested in the dark, whereas Azzy and Noelle were more timid, obedient, and associated with light.

For this reason, my thinking is that Azzy and Noelle were in secondary roles with Kris and Dess (primarily Dess, I'm guessing) leading the narrative.

Even if you don't believe the girl is Dess, and even if you don't think Dess is the Knight, that's fine for the time being - regardless, Ramb's dialogue is clearly supposed to make you reconsider the nature of the first three Dark Worlds, and set up a duality between Kris leading King and the Card Kingdom forces, and a Holiday girl leading Queen and the Cyber City forces. This imaginary war between the two is likely the origin story of King and Queen's epic divorce, and the "chaos" that Card Kingdom once saw which Seam alludes to in Chapter 1.

So in the past, the Dreemurrs and Holidays used to have a shared make-believe world they used to play in. Kris was in charge of controlling King and the cards and toys - they were on "Kris's side" - whereas a Holiday girl was in charge of the the laptop and computer accessories. And now, in the present, Kris and a Holiday girl are again teaming up, literally bringing this make-believe game to life with the power of the Dark Worlds.

Isn't that a little conspicuous?

This present situation is clearly mirroring the past one, so what are the implications of Kris having been in charge of Card Kingdom? Is this just a meaningless detail? I don't think so. We know Kris's participation in the conspiracy runs deep enough to have them creating Dark Worlds. I think the implication is pretty obvious.

This actually makes sense of some pretty odd details, like: why did Toby write King to not have interacted with the Knight at all? People have been calling this a retcon left and right but Kris Knighters have, since Chapter 2, been calling attention to the fact that all mentions of the Knight in Chapter 1 are deliberately ambiguous and misleading.

* Historically, this land was ruled by the Four Kings, from CARD CASTLE to the East. * But, recently, a strange knight appeared... * And three of the kings were locked away. * Once, all four of us ruled together, but when the Knight arrived, everything changed... * By the Knight's will, I shall shatter your heart to pieces!

(Notice how it's never actually stated that the Knight directly carried out the events which occurred after the Knight "appeared"!)

Toby actually repeats this trick of misleading, ambiguous wording in Chapter 3:

I've been all alone... Until now. When the KNIGHT appeared... The ROARING KNIGHT. And I was told that if I keep you three busy, I can have ALL the people watch me that I want.

(Exact same trick! "The Knight appeared, and then X happened.")

I still see people interpreting this as the Knight having talked to Tenna, but we know this didn't happen - we know that this was Kris. And if we pay attention to what Tenna is actually saying, we'll see that he never explicitly states that he met the Knight - only that he was "told" certain things on their behalf.

Furthermore, with Ramb's revelation, Chapter 1 actually gets recontextualized quite a bit, revealing a more personal conflict between Kris and King than was previously apparent. We know now that the Lightners which the toys of Card Kingdom worshipped weren't just random anonymous schoolchildren, but that the Dreemurrs and Holidays were especially important - even moreso now since it's their will bringing them to life as Darkners. King only manifests as King due to how Kris specifically conceived of and played with the spade king card in the make believe game. King's furious accusations of cruelty, his questioning whether Kris's intent is to laugh as they cast him back into obscurity - these interactions gain a whole other dimension with the context of King having a personal history with Kris.

And yet another dimension is added, one of intense dramatic irony, if it were to be revealed King is actually unknowingly talking to the very person who brought Card Kingdom back to life once more - the person he mistakes for the Knight.

Furthermore, King is like Kris in a number of ways. King likes to posture as a badass, with pointed displays of apathy which he uses to conceal his sillier, softer side. King is a parallel to Asgore, Kris's father, in much the same way that Queen is a parallel to Carol, mother to the Holiday sisters. And King is a massive Roaring Knight fanboy - not unlike the way in which Kris seems to have looked up to Dess, imitates certain behaviors of the Knight, and seems to be playing a subordinate role in a conspiracy headed by them.

Despite King's fanboyisms, however, Chapter 4 reveals that he doesn't actually know much of anything about the Knight.

* WHAT!? YOU met THE KNIGHT!? * ... Aheh. A rare show of mercy, I suppose. * With their full strength, you'd be SPLATTERED!! Hahaha!! * ... * ... What... were they like? * Umm, they seemed a little... * A little? A little what? * You know. A little... y'know? * A little WHAT!? DRAW A PICTURE, WENCH!!!

All he seems to know is what Jevil told him, which is that the Knight would eventually bring him great power via the glory of the Dark Fountains - a claim which is true regardless of whether Kris or the Knight created that Fountain (that pesky ambiguous language again!)

The matter of Castle Town

The Supply Closet Dark World is rather mysterious. Before Chapter 3, most people would have scoffed at you if you believed the Knight made the Grand Fountain, since Castle Town serves as a hub for the heroes, who are trying to stop the Knight. Generally speaking, the only group of people who tended to propose this were Kris Knighters.

Post-3/4, we are in a weird sort of halfway limbo, as is the case with many theories from the Chapter 2 era. We now know that Kris Knighters were right about the fact that the Dark Worlds were being made with the explicit goal of eventually sealing them, and that Kris is a double agent on the hero team. This, in combination with the fact that Card Kingdom is right next door to Castle Town would seem to make it plausible, if not likely, that the Knight just created both Dark Worlds, since the Knight is clearly not fundamentally opposed to the heroes' mission to seal the Fountains, as can be inferred from the fact that Kris is informed ahead of time where the Dark Worlds will be and instructed not to enter them without the SOUL (which is necessary for sealing them).

However, under the assumption that the Knight created the Dark Sanctuaries - as Ralsei pretty much says they did - they can't have created the Grand Fountain too, because Ralsei says that Gerson could not be brought back to Castle Town (implication being that the Grand Fountain is deficient for that purpose in the same way that Susie's Second Sanctuary is: the creator of the Dark World lacks a sentimental connection to Gerson while he was still alive). With this in mind, it seems unlikely the Knight created the Grand Fountain.

There is another candidate, however - the other Fountain creator in the conspiracy, Kris.

This makes a degree of intuitive sense, since Castle Town largely revolves around Kris and - more specifically - their SOUL. It's the base of operations for the heroes, who Kris is the leader of. And Ralsei, the only initial inhabitant of the Dark World, seems much more tied to Kris and the Dreemurrs than he is to any Holiday.

Narratively, this could also make sense of the fact that Castle Town and TV World are paralleled. Notably, the empty Cliffs area on the outskirts of the supply closet Dark World gets recreated in TV World; it seems likely that this feature of those Dark Worlds is relatively independent of creator influence, but one has to wonder why Toby wrote the two Dark Worlds to be tied in this manner.

Moreover, the Dreemurr living room which TV World is based on once functioned quite similarly to how the school's supply closet does now: back in the original make-believe game, the Dreemurr living room was a shared hub for objects from various locations, a kind of grand unified Dark World in a metaphorical sense. It is, again, interesting that the location of this hub world was chosen to be Kris's house, where they led the Card Kingdom objects, and now in the present, the new hub world is adjacent/connected to Card Kingdom.

I know a lot of people will resist this notion, though. Most people think Gaster created the Dark Fountain, and that anyone else doing so is implausible because of the fact that the Grand Fountain has special properties, and because of the existence of Ralsei, who said he had not met any of the heroes prior to the events of the game.

I don't think it's impossible Gaster created the Dark World, but I do think it's a little implausible given that it seems Gaster near exclusively interacts with the world (at least the "surface world") through proxies and indirect manipulation of agents. Kris is harboring the SOUL which Gaster summoned into the world, and Kris seems to have a uniquely important relationship to Gaster. Most people who accept that Gaster created the prophecy also accept that the Knight is a kind of proxy for him, the main agent for carrying out the prophecy, the literal generator of conflict; this also makes sense of the Knight's visual connections to the mysteryman sprite, like their stigmata hands and bitonal palette. But again - Kris is also central to the Knightspiracy, seems completely aligned with the Knight, also creates Dark Worlds, and also has special connections to Gaster. Who's to say that Kris is not a proxy in this way too?

In terms of explaining the special properties of the Grand Fountain, YouTuber Black Chestnut once proposed that the Grand Fountain is "pure" because it's in a barren room devoid of any theming or purpose besides storing other objects - which translates to a Dark World that is impartial and capable of housing any Darkner. I still think this explanation really checks out thematically and makes a lot of intuitive sense.

As for Ralsei, he is still deceptive about at least some things pertaining to Kris and his relationship with them to Susie and the Player - so at the very least I don't think his existence completely wipes out the idea that Kris could have created the Dark World.

If you're still skeptical, that's fine. Ultimately, the main point here, which I think is undeniable, is that TV World has ties to Castle Town, which establish significant parallels between Chapter 1 and 3. And trust me when I say that those parallels do not end there.

Piles of Chapter 1 parallels

Simply put, Chapter 1 and 3 are intensely linked. Let's illustrate the point by going over the many, many connections TV World has to the Dark Worlds of Chapter 1.

Symbolic callbacks

Chapter 3 frequently calls back to specific moments or events from Chapter 1.

At the start of the Chapter, in the couch cliffs area, both the "eyes blinded by darkness" puzzle and Card Kingdom's clock puzzle where the three heroes must step on switches reappear.

In the Boards, the appearance of HERO_SCARF is modelled after Ralsei's appearance in the first Chapter specifically.

In one of Tenna's quizzes, the Thrash Machine as it appeared in Chapter 1 is shown.

In the cut Board 3, the elevator ride to the top of TV Tower deliberately calls back to the elevator ride in Card Castle.

The Darkner roster

Chapter 3's Darkner cast overlaps with Chapter 1's to a notable extent.

Most obviously there are the Pippins, one of the main Darkners of this world, who originally come from Card Kingdom and were first introduced in Chapter 1.

The dust piles and wobblies of the Grand Fountain's cliffs area make a return in TV World's couch cliffs.

The Ribbick Darkners parallel the Rabbicks of Card Kingdom, and there's even a lone Rabbick in the Dark World hiding among them.

The Goulden Sams return from Card Kingdom with a pretty significantly expanded role. Along with the Goulden Sams there are also the Suilver Sams and the Goulden Sons.

C. Round was originally supposed to be included as a spinning wheel in the Boards before getting cut.

The Rudinns are also present in TV World in the form of the Flying Aces, though they've been consigned to Nowhere. They will be discussed later.

Overall, a little over 40% of the native Darkner cast in Chapter 3 originate in or have unmissably apparent ties to Chapter 1's Dark Worlds - a number that obviously increases if you count the cut C. Round, or Lancer and Rouxls. To be clear, I don't mean to imply that the only function of these ties to Chapter 1 is to hint at Kris having made Card Kingdom. Chapter 3 is centrally concerned with the theme of memory and nostalgia, and calling back to the very first Chapter of the game is an effective way to communicate that idea for the players that have been following Deltarune for multiple years.

Chapter 3 is also serving as a conclusion to the "first act" of Deltarune's story, so to speak. The first three Chapters are united in being about Dark Worlds based on objects which were involved in the make-believe games of the Dreemurr and Holiday kids, with a more upbeat tone than the rest of the story that would follow. To this end Chapter 1 and 3 are bookends of this "act" and calling back the former makes sense; Chapter 3 also has ties to Chapter 2, as is apparent in Spamton's influence all over the world, and with Ramb, the second most important Darkner in the Chapter, being a plugboy from Cyber World (who also has a Maus in his shop) - even if a large theme of Ramb's story is that he was unable to integrate in the same way that other objects could. Chapter 3 even has some Darkners from Chapter 4, in the Mizzles (encased in watercoolers per Tenna's contract) and the Bibliox who guards the ticket to Nowhere.

But ultimately, I feel inclined to say that the Chapter 1 connections stand out as being more than just callbacks. It's not just that they're prominent - they feel distinctly meaningful. The Goulden Sams are allegories for Kris themself, who is also a "cage" that feels like an outsider. The Suilver Sams seem to pointedly imply a connection between Kris and the Vessel. The Pippins reflect Kris's nature as a cheater and gamist. And, of course, we need to talk about...

The aces and the tree

We need to talk about the Egg Rooms. Apparently no one except me finds it incredibly suspect that Kris's Trauma Tree - the tree we know they drew in therapy - just happens to be a Card Kingdom tree.

Why. Why the hell would the Evil Ass Trauma Tree be a basic block tree from Card Kingdom. Or maybe we have this reversed? Maybe we should be asking why the basic Card Kingdom block trees are Evil Ass Trauma Trees?

Either way the question remains of what narrative purpose this connection is serving. Because I have to assume that Toby didn't just make it this way for no reason. There's isn't any obvious reason why the tree Kris drew in therapy, apparently related to some repressed or erased memory, would be that block tree from Card Kingdom. Unless...

This is a trite observation at this point, but creating a Dark World is a little bit like creating art. You stab the ground in not too dissimilar a way to putting the tip of a pen down on a piece of paper. In Chapter 4, bladed weapons are even compared to pens, making this connection explicit. The Tree is tied to artistic creation; Kris draws it in therapy. After the process, they wash their hands - which ties back to them washing their hands before the creation of TV World. Could it not be that the nature of the Tree as an artistic creation, something which was drawn on paper, conveys something about the world in which this tree appears as a basic feature?

To put it a different way: Kris is positioned as the artist behind the Tree. The drawer. The creator. Are they not being positioned, then, by proxy, as Card Kingdom's creator too?

Look, I'm not saying this isn't weird. If you're asking yourself "aren't the trees just supposed to be the red blocks in the classroom??"... like, yes. That's certain. That's totally what the trees are. It's not clear why this tree Kris ostensibly drew in therapy sometime in the past is manifesting as like, a tree representing a red toy block.

Nonetheless the symbolism is relatively simple here: Kris's artistic creation (the Tree) is manifesting as a different, metaphorical artistic creation (the Dark World-ified red block). To me, this seems to be suggesting some sort of shared nature, and to me that shared nature seems to be Kris's creative capacity, literal or metaphorical. We should also discuss the Flying Aces. Starting in Chapter 3, these get introduced as NPCs inhabiting the Egg Rooms, which had up to that point only been inhabited by Kris and the Man. As we learn, these are seven photocopied ace cards which Kris had individually colored in to try to use to cheat at cards with. This plan apparently didn't go well, and the cards were lost and forgotten about. As I've discussed elsewhere, this is an allegory for goners and is not only very important lore but specifically meaningful to Kris's character.

In particular, the Seventh Ace, almost certainly the same character as the blue Rudinn in Castle Town, feels particularly like a Kris allegory. When we were first introduced to them, they were green - Kris's signature Light World color, from the Dreemurr clothes they wear. The Rudinn's color "fades" into blue - the color that the Ace was painted in after being photocopied (the Secretary Ace in the Therapy Egg Room is always blue) - as well as Kris's signature Dark World color. And beneath all that, they are grey, monochrome, like the goner vessel created at the start of the game.

So here we again have again these narrative devices that are incredibly important to Kris's character and, as we've gotten well accustomed to now, these also oh so conspicuously happen to be Card Kingdom characters. Over and over and over again, Kris is tied to Card Kingdom, both in simple and superficial ways, and in deep, significant, often inscrutible ways! Could it really be that this is just coincidence? I'm really reluctant to believe that. I think Toby has to be trying to convey something here.

The piano

Okay, so I've saved the most tinfoil, conspiracy-brained piece of "evidence" I have for the last.

So in Chapter 4, if you get captured by Kris once in Holiday Manor and return to the kitchen to watch them from the vents, Kris will wander off-screen to play the piano for ca. 8 minutes. Below are the different sections Kris plays listed by the internal names used and the musical references they contain:

sevenfour (unknown)

quiz (Query?, Tenna leitmotif)

lancer_waltz (Thrash Machine, Acid Tunnel of Love, Lancer leitmotif)

rouxls (It's Pronounced "Rules", Rouxls Kaard leitmotif)

waitingroom (TV WORLD, Hip Shop leitmotif)

shop (Shop 3, revealed in the Winter 2025 Newsletter as a track from Chapter 5)

last_prophecy (The Legend leitmotif)

prophecy (Hymn, Don't Forget)

Okay, so like, I'm not crazy, right? Kris plays:

Card Kingdom leitmotifs. (Chapter 1)

TV World leitmotifs. (Chapter 3)

Flower King leitmotifs. (Chapter 5)

General prophecy-associated leitmotifs like The Legend and Don't Forget.

You know what Kris doesn't play? Cyber World leitmotifs. Dark Sanctuary leitmotifs. No Queen, no Spamton, no SCC, no Gerson, no Jackenstein, no NOTHIN'. Just Lancer, Rouxls, Tenna, maybe Ramb.

Is this just a coincidence? Honestly, I don't think it is. I think this is just further reinforcement of Kris's special connection to Card Kingdom. The interesting thing is that there's also a Flower King track here. You could probably conjure some huge crack theory that Kris will make Chapter 5's Fountain based on that if you wanted... but you don't have to take it that far either. Flower King has an obvious personal connection to Kris in being their dad's shop.

In any case, I don't think this piano tidbit is the most important evidence presented in this post at all, but it's just one of those little things that make you think "man, a lot of the little details line up".

WHAT NOW??

So after everything we've discussed, do we have incontrovertible proof that Kris created Card Kingdom? No, of course not. In fact, I think there are very compelling arguments you could make for Dess having created it.

Take for example the fact that Card Kingdom is located in the unused classroom. That classroom (it is implied and emphasized by the game, via Alvin's drawing) was Gerson's old classroom.

And if we assume, as I think is reasonable, that the Knight created the Dark Sanctuaries, it means that Dess probably needs to have had a rather close relationship with Gerson, enough to have considered him a "loved one". Alvin's drawing is already conspicuous - it seems that it may well be setting up Card Kingdom and the unused classroom as a way to establish the relationship Dess and Gerson had, which would probably preclude Kris from having created that Dark World.

Many people have also noted Clover's similarities to Dess, tied King's grievance over being "left in the dark" to Dess's disappearance, connected the forest maze section to the 1225 maze, and so on. I personally don't find these points enormously convincing by themselves, but they're certainly worth mentioning and considering.

I'm sure you could make a fairly convincing post, structured like this one, detailing the evidence, thematic and literal, for Dess having created Card Kingdom's Dark World. But that would also be the default assumption. It's not really something most people need to be convinced of. The Knight creating the Dark World is the obvious surface level conclusion, that's what the game already implied. But I think the fact that you can make essentially as good a case for Kris having created this Dark World is interesting and telling.

I anticipate that some people are going to ask "what would be the point of this revelation, narratively speaking?" and I want to quickly defend the theory against the accusation that this would be a cheap or useless twist. Personally, there are two core reasons why I find this theory narratively appealing.

The first is that it would mean that Kris is more of an active participant in the conspiracy than many people seem to think. There's so much discussion of Kris's character that focuses on them as a pawn under the control of others, even a lot of speculation that they're even being blackmailed and guilt-tripped, that they're actually terrified and resentful of Carol and/or the Knight but unable to break free from their influence. But I think Kris is at their most interesting when they have some kind of personal stake in their actions. I think Kris is most complex when their actions are a result of their own will, even if they're done in collaboration with others. And really, think about it - what's more dramatically compelling: that Kris is this hapless pawn being moved around by the game's antagonists, or that Kris is suffering from internal strife, torn between two desires - to be honest and faithful to Susie on one hand, and, on the other, to carry out a plan they're personally invested in bringing about, out of loyalty and allegience to someone they've known for much longer, but may have a troubled relationship with?

(Gif by LinoOikl45887) That's the second reason. I think it does wonders for the clearly narratively central relationship between Kris and the Knight (which is to say, Kris and Dess) to tie the current Dark World conspiracy to the old make-believe game they used to lead as children. It positions these two characters as having a special, complicated, personal relationship - less like a puppet and its master, and more like two autonomous agents that are responsible for their respective actions, even if there is coercion involved, and even if the power is slanted more towards one side. Messy, complicated people acting out of loyalty to each other, and from shared affinities and desires, instead of just brute force and compulsion.

Regardless of who created the Dark World, I hope to have demonstrated in this post that Card Kingdom and its Darkners are very strongly tied to Kris, in ways that are worthy of close analysis. I hope to have brought further attention to the old make-believe game the Dreemurr and Holiday kids used to play together. And I hope to have demonstrated the value of emphasizing Kris and Dess's relationship in analysis and speculation about the game.

Toodle-oo!

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