Musings

experiences in spiritwork -•- (18+ just to be safe, but don't expect spice here)

[bluegoldfaerie]

we're all just weirdos online who like to engage in spiritual practices. but at the end of the day we're behind a screen and no one knows who anyone truly is, so don't take anyone's word as 100% absolute. that's risky and could lead to cult behavior

if someone comes in with "facts" about a god/goddess, you need to do your own research before you absolutely believe it

[velvetlaceandscars]

Chinese Folk Religion Resource List

Basically, all the current online references I use for my practice.

(might be updated if I add other things to my normal references)

Your milage may vary, especially because I’m a solitary practitioner trying to pull from my own syncretistic roots, and because folk practices vary by region and family practices. My own family rejected traditional folk practices when they converted to Christianity and refuse to discuss it, so I’m building mine without their help or knowledge to guide me.

For divination:

Online I Ching

This is my favorite I Ching system I’ve found thus far, and I feel like it gives a good breakdown of the meaning of each hexagram.

Methods of Reading

This page lists a bunch of different ways used to generate I Ching hexagrams, including using coins, numbered sticks, colored objects, etc.

Lunar cycles:

Chinese Calendar

This page shows you the overview of each month with the dates of each full and new moon, and any festivals or holidays.

For other stuff:

JSTOR Asian folklore resources

Not specifically Chinese, but there’s a great spread of information here. The articles start with the featured topic or articles in the edition, and then a bunch of book reviews sorted by country.

Heathen Chinese

This blog is one of my favorites for information. Their posts about the “Chinese Religion in Malaysia” article are especially useful for a breakdown of all that information.

Joss House

This blog is mostly pictures and information on specific beings.

[withfangedfury-deactivated20260]

For some reason Hermes wanted me to make this post so I am going to do my best!

I have three trickster deities in my deity 'social circle' I suppose we can call it. They are, of course: Loki, Hermes, and Odin.

Very curiously the only deity that has the 'reputation' of a trickster and all that it comes with it is Loki. That's not to say that Hermes and Odin aren't acknowledged as tricksters but when someone speaks about a trickster deity most people's minds automatically jump to Loki.

I'm going to tell you how I associate the others as different aspects of the 'Trickster' archetype. Of course this all UPG.

For Hermes in particular I associate him with the 'thievery' aspect of the archetype. For instance as a baby he rustles Apollo's cattle; he seems to lean toward tricking people out of their property. It's well known Hermes is a patron of thieves, rustlers, outlaws. The more 'crime' focused aspects of trickery.

Hermes in particular generally has a playful demeanor; it's not to say the others don't but he genuinely seems to come across as largely benevolent. He might cheat at cards or hustle some pool but he's generally not going to fuck up your whole life with his tricks. I think he takes great pride in the 'winning' over other people. He is associated with a love for games so it makes sense that he would love the thrill of a mental challenge. The kind of "I warned you, didn't I? Oh, but it's okay. You can't have possibly have known. It's okay, kid. No harm, no foul. But you aren't getting your money back. No refunds."

I think Hermes is perhaps so benevolent that one might actually forget this aspect of his personality. He is known as the "glad-hearted god" and he is a bringer of immense joy to mankind.

Loki, of course, needs no introduction. Loki is without a doubt a trickster but in the way a lawyer is if that makes sense? He points out loop holes you hadn't considered and if he sees something that he can twist to his advantage he will. But! That's more in line with him being a wordsmith and clever rather than actually seeking to humiliate you or belittle you. I think Loki loves to debate; loves to play devil's advocate.

It's more of a oh? You think this? Defend it to me. I'm going to make you consider every angle and if you mess it up then you have to admit I win!

Loki's tricks are notably harmless but can verge into the crueler territory if he has a lesson to teach. (Cutting Sif's hair for example) The cutting of hair is a symbol of adultery and I think more than anything Loki can't stand hypocrisy. From the Aesir and from others in general. You say one thing and do the other? Well, he's going to have to call you out and make you look like an idiot.

So, Loki's trickery (when it's not harmless like HAHA, I put pink dye in your shampoo or...BOO SPIDER, is generally designed to teach a lesson or upset the status quo.)

Now finally, we arrive at Odin. To me Odin is the essence of the Trickster we all fear. I admittedly know the least about Odin so please forgive me if my information on him isn't as on point.

Odin to me is ruthless in getting what he wants. He doesn't particular care if you know why he's tricking you; he wants something from the exchange. That's not necessarily a bad thing and that's not to say you NEVER get anything in return. Odin can be very generous if he takes a liking to you. However Odin definitely exemplifies the concept of "I will do anything to get what I want and woe to you that stand in my way. I have no trouble stepping over you."

He has no problem lying or telling you what you want to hear to accomplish his goals. He is the Trickster that will whisper sweet words and if you happen to not want to go along with what he wants then that's a "you" problem.

I can't help but admire the lengths he will go to get what he wants. More than anything he craves knowledge. He's well known for that. If you happen to have some obscure knowledge he wants and you won't fork it over he has no problem tricking you, using seidr, or outright killing you if the ends justify the means.

That isn't to say that Odin isn't a wonderful deity and loving to his followers and those he calls his. I just think he is more of the figure people should think of when they jump the gun to thinking about 'harmful' trickster deities.

Odin is a trickster with a ruthless side; if he can use his formidable wits to get what he wants he's not going to care too much if he has to bend the truth, steal, lie, or kill to get it.

There is a time and place for all genres of tricksters.

[trash-bin-witch-deactivated2025]

If someone tells you that you can't to spellwork or manifest when you're anxious or emotional, that's some bullshit, and it's best to ignore that person.

We are animals. Fear, emotion, anxiety, these are hardwired into us because of our nature. They exist to keep us safe. Saying that you have to be completely neutral is sanist propaganda bullshit.

Yes, you probably shouldn't be casting while you're in the middle of a crisis, an anxiety attack, etc etc. But if you're angry? You're sad? You're bitter? Use those emotions. That yearning, the psychological need for those emotions to be transmuted into more pleasant ones, that is pure alchemy. Your brain is yearning to feel different than it is, it is yearning to feel different than it does, because being in an upset state doesn't feel good.

Your body craving the change it knows it needs is an incredibly valuable tool. Use it.

[crabwarlock-deactivated20260108]

Proto-Indo-European Creation Myth

There are two primary deities in consideration with the PIE Creation Myth, being the pair Yemos and Manos, represetning Man and the Divine. A third function, representing the priest, such as in Seth Adamas, appears called Trinto who serves as the inheritor of the priesthood that Manos represents. In this regard, Mannu, the rune, has a two-fold operation as being the representation of the primordial man but also the community that followed post-sacrifice.

The first issue is that this is not the 'true' beginning of sorts, since there is usually a precursory beginning where a primordial deity appears, often associated with void or chaos in some aspect as a formative element. From this void, often creating from itself, appears the first 'man' being the archetypal parents of Dyaus Patr and Dhegom Matr.

The Roman Creation myth, as far as I could find, appears with this primordial being, Khaos, who then creates Gaia-Ge. The variations of the Egyptian Genesis also feature this primordial water, called Nun.

So, there's generally some form of distinction between the primal substance and the formed substance, which is often first Earth in some capacity. One creation myth I found states that Ra/Re was born from the cosmic egg which parallels his creation story from Mehet-Weret.

The theme of there being two distinctions is also established in the Hiranyagharba, the Cosmic Egg which appears in other myths such as that of Phanes being born from the Cosmic Egg. The Hiranyagharba is said to have been born from the primordial waters, splitting into two to form Prithvi and Svarga.

In some reconstructions of the Celtic Creation Myth, there was only ocean (akin to the primordial waters), alongside the earth (Ge), and an oak tree. From the ocean came Eiocha, though I have found little to attest to this mare goddess but Epona does exist with a similar form, and ate seeds from the oak tree, birthing Cernunnos.

One reconstruction seems to be more usual, drawing from various symbols, where the earth and heaven were closer together, thus having the ability to create gods before the gods born, possibly Cernunnos and Epona if we were to bind the two together, castrated (a motif often found with stories where a younger god overthrows an elder god) the sky.

This seems oddly strange, considering that the sky would be associated with fertility, but it does stand with the appearance of Chronos being castrated by the younger gods. We also find the motif of sea and fertility, as it is from Chronos' castrated phallus, his fertility and virility, that Aphrodite is born. Though Aphrodite's association with the sea is sometimes interpreted as her coming from over the sea, connecting her to the cult of Ishtar/Astarte.

From this, we find some key motifs:

Some form of Primal Water from which the first substance is drawn A divine egg or container of some capacity that represents the creative potential Two ancestral deities who birth the others, often associated with the union of Sky and Land/Sea

[cultkinkcoven]

Rraa

I just spent like an hour answering an ask about schizophrenia and psychosis and how to tell the difference between spirit contact and hallucinations and it got fucking blasted into the shadow realm and idk where it went Im so mad.

So, tldr

Psychosis is a symptom, not a disorder itself

Schizophrenia is a specific psychotic disorder with a specific diagnostic criteria, there are nuances between Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective for example

Psychosis can occur without schizophrenia, and can occur in other conditions like Bipolar, or in substance abuse

Paranoia and delusion are common features of psychosis. These are delusions derived from mundane and meaningless occurrences that produce extreme paranoia or destructive behaviours.

Flattening affect, disorganized thoughts, derealization and dissociation, along with disinterest in anything not pertaining to the delusion are also frequently occurring in psychotic disorders.

Delusions can be fantastical or grandiose rather than paranoid, but these delusions still tend to lead to disorganized behaviour

Hallucinations can take many forms, audio hallucinations are more prevalent than visual ones.

Superstitious beliefs and benign positive affirmations are not inherently psychotic when other dysfunctional traits are absent.

There is no real factual way to distinguish what we call "clair-audience" from auditory hallucination in essence. Especially in regard to channeling, altered states, trance work, and deity work, it is sometimes implied that the spirit is going to be giving you hallucinations. These visualizations do not happen in the material world, the spirit is working with your mental interface to communicate meanings, understandings, significance, and energy to you.

Therefore, these are some ways to reliably tell if your hallucinations are mystical in nature, or psychological in nature.

1. The presence is involuntary and non compliant-- Even people who have positive hallucinations may still have them at inconvenient times. Spirits are largely subject to the law of the craft, they are vulnerable to banishments and tend not to spontaneously just manifest. If I told Lucifer to go away, he wouldn't keep talking. He doesn't just bust in and start singing loudly when I'm trying to work, if I take a spiritual break from my craft, spirits don't continue to pester me. When I want to talk to Lucifer, I have to put conscious effort and focus into it.

2. Energetic signature and understanding-- Lucifer's energy always feels like Lucifer, and his messages carry his signature. But asides from that, conversations with Lucifer work unlike mundane thoughts or conversations with other people. It is less like a conversation being held over time, but rather like downloading direct information. I will suddenly understand a 30 minute conversation in a single moment and achieve some understanding I could not have met alone. A lot of the time I don't "hear" Lucifer's voice, I more so just feel him as a sort of memory. If you know you know.

3. Am I okay? Am I tending to my needs, eating, sleeping? Am I withdrawing from others? When was the last time I showered? Am I taking care of myself? If the answer is no, these mundane things need to be addressed before anything spiritual can occur.

4. Does this presence make me feel safe? Do they give me good advice, or do they lead me into lines of thinking that I recognize as being far fetched? Do they make inappropriate comments about my body that make me feel bad? Do they violate my boundaries? Spiritual parasites can cause mental illness. This doesn't mean to say all mental illness are spiritually informed, it only means that protecting your mental health will also protect you from spiritual adversaries.

5. Can I tell the difference between my waking experiences and the astral dimension? I am also a person that dabbles often with astral projection and trance work. But my experiences with Lucifer are always understood to be astral, different than the waking material world I live in. I'm never confused as to if something I did with Lucifer was as physically real as something I did with my boyfriend. They are both real in my soul, bit I am still always able to distinguish between the two planes of reality. My sense of time is still intact, I'm never confused as to if I spent Tuesday here on earth or in some magical forest with Lucifer.

6. Am I always able to maintain a healthy degree of skepticism? I am theistic, I believe in these spirits as a literal reality. But I am also able to recognize that a burning candle may be making me feel really bad, not because there's an evil spirit in the house, but because I've been burning incense all day and my room is extremely smoky. Those could be angel numbers telling you to quit your job and start mining bitcoin. It could also just be 3:33pm. If everything MUST be your deity all the time, it may be time to take a break. Recognizing signs is great, but recognizing when things are not signs is even better. Discernment is your life line.

7. Is this presence enriching your life or taking away from it? On the complete opposite end of the spectrum in the way of fantasies rather than paranoia, my relationship and experiences with Lucifer never feel "better" than my waking ones. I don't wish I was spending my time with Lucifer rather than my friends and family. I don't wish to one day fly away with him and abandon my normal life. Lucifer has helped me improve my life and circumstances so I can live life to the fullest. He encourages me to have good relationships and cherish my time. He does not encourage me to stay inside and fantasize about a world where everything is perfect. My astral experiences exist as additions to my waking life, not a substitute of it.

The most important thing to remember is that these things are not mutually exclusive. A person with bipolar can experience hallucinations and also be a practitioner. Someone can work with spirits and have a dissociative identity disorder. What is the most important above all else is being able to distinguish between pathological hallucinations and productive mystical ones.

Someone could have hallucinations of spiders often and understand that as a hallucination. That same person could also be a god spouse and completely understand the difference between their frequent hallucinations and their conversations with their spouse.

I loathe the mentality that acts like hallucinations are an immediate game over in terms of spirituality and that people with neurodivergencies are banned from participating in spirituality, because these people are in fact among the most primed for it. What is most important is staying vigilant of one's mental health and practicing both mental and spiritual hygiene.

[hats-off-to-hermes]

Hello, do you have any advice on going to the astral realm specifically to speak to deities? I would love to but I don't know where to start

Hey Anon! Thanks for asking :)

I can really only speak from personal experience and I don't know the exact "science" around engaging with the astral because it's been a short part of my practice, but I hope this might help.

I'm unsure if you're asking only about speaking to deities because you already know how to astral travel, or if you want the whole package. For the sake of answering this in the most comprehensive way, I will present the whole package, but you can scroll down to find where I talk about speaking to deities only ("Speaking to Deities in the Astral" heading).

Before I started consciously astral travelling to speak with deities, there were some other things I was working on.

Divination and Clairsenses

In the early days, divination methods of communicating with deities. I've been using tarot with the gods for almost seven years now and while it may seem like a strange starting point because astral travelling isn't the same as using tools to communicate, I do think it helped me build my skills around receiving information and interpreting it.

And by skills I mean what we call clairsenses and intuition. This also comes with another layer that is sometimes forgotten: Trust.

I consider the development of our clairsenses to be important because they are, at their core, another set of senses. Our senses are what we rely on to interact with the world around us whether or not it's physical.

Some people even refer to them as astral senses instead under the theory that the information we receive spiritually comes from the astral or is based there, as it is such a vast plane that very well encompasses any sort of dimension you're engaging with other than the physical 3D world and isn't easily defined.

How does divination help with developing our senses? When you go beyond just recalling the meanings or keywords of cards, you can start to sort of "tune into" your senses and see what else comes through. This may be imagery, strings of words, smells or even sensations (e.g. the sensation of sitting in a car with an open window). Good discernment skills are necessary to avoid personal biases or projecting personal ideas into what you're noticing, but this is what I consider the beginnings of using your clairsenses as part of divination.

Alright let's say you've been working on your clairsenses for a while.

Does meditation help?

I do agree that meditation can help with this, which is the recommendation from many resources I've seen on astral travelling. Additionally, being able to meditate with a deity. What does it mean to do this?

Focusing your meditation process on your connection with a deity or desire to connect with a deity.

Interpreting your experience in the scope of interacting with the deity (an object that appears may be interpreted differently when meditating with Hekate vs Loki)

Receiving information or even messages from a deity in a meditative state.

This already creates a strong foundation for speaking with deities in the astral (some might even say this is already you speaking with deities in astral).

I find it hard to discern sometimes if I'm just receiving visual (or other) information vs if I'm actually in the astral. This is because my astral practice is largely bilocation rather than a complete out of body experience. So if you have trouble as well, you aren't alone. And if you want to explore bilocation rather than trying for an out of body experience, this discovery is what has helped me in spades.

Some notes on the imagination and clairsenses

You may actually find that there are similarities between your imagination and the astral experience, particularly if you are a very visual person like me (I can imagine a 3d coloured apple rotating in my head - so the opposite of someone with aphantasia).

Similarly, it takes a level of discernment for clairsenses themselves because my clairaudience comes through my inner thoughts yet isn't quite the same. My clairvoyance isn't me seeing something in the physical in front of me, it's all in my mind's eye.

It's okay to be nervous about these things. My recommendations are:

Write your experiences down or even just little notes. Sometimes I get random flashes of things happening as if I were purposefully bilocating and write them in my notebook. Then they match up with something I discover a day or two later.

Let yourself experience first and interpret later.

Find a trusted friend or a few who also astral travel so you can share experiences and learn from each other.

Don't be afraid to research more about something you experience. Particularly for UPG with deities, you never know if it's a new rabbit hole to explore or they might even want you to verify something (because receiving information you might not already know can happen and is a thrilling experience and one you can ground in discernment, research, and curiosity)

Speaking to Deities in the Astral

So the way I recommend for pagans/polytheists/spiritworkers to either purposefully experience the astral for the first time or speak to deities in the astral for the first time is the same.

Start with actually asking a deity for assistance!

I would recommend having an established relationship with the deity already (it doesn't have to be formal/oathed/familial/romantic - it can be that you worship this deity and participate in a reciprocal religion where you give offerings and honour them). Even better if this is a deity you feel comfortable doing divination with or communicating with in other ways. I definitely encourage meditating with them leading up to this to use those muscles (senses and skills).

If a deity you're close to doesn't come to mind to help with this but you are still pretty sure about your other skills, I'd recommend giving another deity of choice an appropriate offering to petition their assistance.

From what I've gathered, deities that are associated with travelling between realms or travel in general may be more familiar with helping people astral travel. This could be Hekate or Hermes from the hellenic pantheon for example, as they are both psychopomps and move between realms.

Trust is important here again. You want to trust your capability and you want to trust in what your deity is advising you to do.

When I did this for myself, I asked Bast, because she is the reason why I wanted to start astral travelling. I wanted to be able to interact with her in a meaningful way in the astral.

She guided me even while I didn't exactly know what was going on. When I say trust in your deity, I don't just mean believing in them to help you. I also mean giving them consent to guide you. You are actively stepping into a situation where a deity knows more about what you're doing than you do and you're relying on them. This isn't a thing to be scared of, just aware of. It's not a bad thing for your deity to know more than you. You can maintain a balance between being open and being aware of your boundaries, including the ones that are created while you're experiencing something new.

I followed her guidance. Sometimes it won't be in words. Sometimes it'll be the feeling of doing something just because you feel like it's right.

I believe I successfully astral travelled when we had this experience. The funny thing is, I didn't actually realise in the moment (I thought it was a fail). It was only after some reflection later and talking about my experience with a trusted friend that it clicked into place (I had actually appeared in what I now know as my "astral spawnpoint" (not any sort of official term or language - it's like, my home base from which I travel elsewhere). Then, I just kept practicing from there and I still do now.

Your deity may show you what it means to approach another deity (or even themself) in the astral. What might be important to consider, what the environment around you will be like, the etiquette around this (just because you are experiencing the gods in a closer manner via the astral, doesn't mean your manners are gone!). Because it does depend!

I tend to leave it to the deities I speak with to "establish the scene" in that I go to where they want me to meet them. It's hard to say how to do this because it can be automatic. One day I went to speak with a pair of gods on behalf of a friend because sometimes we need someone other than ourselves to ask our deities a question. When I intentionally tuned in and had my hands at the ready to write things down, I had "appeared" in a location where the two of them already were. I had no idea "where" this was but I knew from my senses and the energy there that this is where I was meant to be for this conversation.

You might find that the gods bring you around to different places for your needs or theirs. I personally don't think it's harmful to me for this to happen or that it's them messing with me in any way either. It tends to be helpful!

Astral can be subjective. I don't think I can really say "you should just focus on talking with one deity at a time" or "yeah it's fine if a bunch of them show up" because I don't know the "rules" for everyone. But that's just the thing, you can take your time to learn the "rules" whether that's about manners like I mentioned, or what circumstances are needed for travel (like your room set up in a certain comfortable way), or how you discern information, or what the gods are actually happy to share with you vs what isn't your business.

On that note as well, though, astral can be a shared experience. You can astral travel with friends and be in the same location! I say this because I've done it before and I've heard about stories where other people have too. I've seen people describe it like a massive multiplayer game where there is a huge server you're connecting to, rather than it being singleplayer haha

Other Considerations

Exploring your conceptualisation of the astral (what is the astral? how does it work? what is my belief? what are other beliefs? - you don't need to know all the answer and your answers are likely to change over time)

What is the relationship between the astral and deities? (e.g. do deities live in the astral? are gods in multiple places at once? are you interacting with one aspect of the god or something else?)

How will you know if you're using the astral in an unsafe way? (I mean this in the more grounded sense rather than the spiritual sense of protections etc. When are you using the astral as a reason to talk down on others? When might you be spiritually bypassing? - aka attributing situations that require certain and perhaps professional attention to a spiritual experience)

How will you look after yourself so you aren't overloading on information and thoughts?

How will you treat your experiences? (what do you want to share? what shouldn't you share? what might effect your path and practice more?)

From what I've gathered, just because you see, for example, a location that belongs to a deity, doesn't mean that is the Highest Truth. Sometimes people will relate to what you see or experience, sometimes people will have a completely different experience. That's okay and just part of the astral mystery

This post is really long but I do hope again that something here is relevant to what you're asking and what you'd like to achieve. I think astral travelling to interact with deities is a beautiful thing that allows us to feel closer with the divine. There doesn't have to be any other reason to do it other than because we desire to be closer with them.

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions or if I can clarify anything!

[mischievous-heretic]

A long ramble on how my practice evolved through Hellenic Polytheism, godspousing, and mysticism, into whatever I am now. waves hands randomly

How does a scholar manage to ignore historical sources so thoroughly? And end up a godspouse?

Well, I tried to be a proper Hellenic Polytheist. Really, I did.

Five years ago when Pan revealed himself as a god to me, I dove headfirst into researching ancient Hellenic religion. Being respectful was important to me, so I quickly learned tons of historical information and started practicing.

I took pains to...

create a shrine to use as an altar

begin observing the monthly holidays of Deipnon, Noumenia, and Agathos Daimon for each moon cycle

learn to calculate the correct time for those religious holidays and many others celebrated for various Greek deities

practice ritual cleansing with freshly made khernips, before making offerings

observe the correct methods of giving offerings to chthonic and ouranic deities

give traditional offerings, many of which I made myself

research the cultural, political, and religious lenses those people used to think about their gods and religion

Once upon a time, people occasionally mistook me for a reconstructionist, because I knew so much about the historical practice of this religion and could quote sources to back it all up. This made my academic brain very happy. I like knowing that I'm doing things right.

Of course, Pan and I regularly argued over sexual offerings...

...(through clairaudience developed from years of spirit work), because the primary sources indicate that human sexual fluids cause lyma and offend the gods.

However, Pan not only didn't seem offended by sex, he appeared (UPG) to want it regularly. This shocked me! How could a god be unrepentantly sexual? Surely deities aren't that way?

So I'd give him all the historical reasons why sex wasn't respectful, and he'd ask (UPG) whose opinions mattered more to me: his or other people's? How much did I care what my god thought?

We'd wrangle for hours sometimes, until I finally got tired and agreed he could have a sexual offering since he seemed to want it so much. I should have known better than to argue. A goat god would enjoy some verbal head-butting!

Later, I'd frantically apply spiritual discernment to those experiences, searching for any place where I might have projected my own libido onto him. After a few decades of spirit work, I had enough discernment skill to be reasonably good at it.

Was I imagining his desire? Hearing him wrong? Did I subconsciously want a god to want sex with me? Did I crave feeling special?

No. I was too terrified for any of that, and not enjoying the fear either.

Day and night I waited for divine punishment...

...thinking surely I must be hubristic somehow, even if I didn't feel arrogant. I trembled, wept, and feared for my life.

I tried to avoid Pan at times, then felt guilty about that since regular worship meant I shouldn't avoid him. And how is avoidance respectful anyhow?

I didn't enjoy feeling chosen, or experience joyful happiness that a god wanted me. Not with so much grinding anxiety and terror of punishment.

Yet Pan (UPG) only seemed happier from receiving sexual offerings. Delighted, even. His emotions and behavior were very different from mine. I couldn't understand why a god would want the very thing everyone said he should find disgusting? It made no sense.

Thankfully, I wasn't involved with social media during that first year of godspousing so I didn't have people calling me names or insisting I must be wrong. However, the sources were clear enough to cause anxiety.

When a formal oath of partnership was proposed...

...I recoiled again. Contended louder. Gods don't marry humans! That simply isn't done. It's unreasonable! Outrageous! Absolutely out of pocket!

With much effort, Pan finally convinced me. I grudgingly agreed. It felt like maybe I was doing a bad thing. Not a joyful "wedding" day, nor was the ritual anything like a human marriage.

I didn't marry him for love. I agreed out of necessity, since I knew it was probably the next thing on my spiritual path. Usually the uncomfortable things are necessary.

We did the mountaintop ritual and went back to my house, where I wept from overwhelm and terror. What had I done? What would happen to me now?

For the next few months, everything seemed okay.

My godspousing operated in parallel to my religious practice. There was what Pan and I did in bed, in the astral. And what the rest of us did at the altar: traditional, formal worship.

I tried to think of the two as completely separate practices. Maybe if my formal worship was observed correctly, I could still consider myself a proper Hellenic Polytheist? Perhaps we could all turn a blind eye to what was going on in the bedroom?

Then my gods started pushing back on tradition.

They proposed (UPG) I should start eating offerings for chthonic deities. What? No! That's not historical. Gave them all the traditional reasons why too, as proof that I understood the seriousness of it.

Pan then asked (UPG) if I thought his chthonic offerings weren't good enough for me? If they were good enough for a god, was I better than a deity? Oof! He wanted to share food and wine with me, like a spouse would. That was an act of love in his eyes, it seemed.

My historical practice unraveled further.

First the offerings changed. Not only for Pan, but for the others also. My gods appeared to want less formality and more sharing, more just giving them casual access to my meals like friends and family.

Then they (UPG) asked me to stop celebrating the monthly cycle of holidays. No Deipnon and the rest. All three celebrations at each lunar month ended.

Then it was no holidays, period. No Elaphebolia for Artemis. No Anthesteria for Dionysus. No Maimakteria for Zeus. No offerings on the sacred days of each lunar month for anyone. No religious holidays at all!

I was sad. Those holidays were important to me. They gave me the feeling that I was doing this religion correctly.

Then I had to stop ritual cleansing with khernips.

I generally bathe daily and wear clean clothes, but I'd increased my cleansing habits out of religious concern. Stop that, they said (UPG). I was making cleansing about my value, as if I could only be good enough for them when I was rigorously clean. Pan (UPG) reminded me of the dirt in his forests and insisted I was already clean enough for him.

These changes caused more anxiety. How could I be sure of pleasing the gods now? Without the guardrails of tradition to keep me on the right path?

Finally they told me to take the shrine down.

This was a little over a year after Pan and I had married. I genuinely thought he had wanted a shrine, so this hurt.

I wept and argued, saying No! In this religion we have shrines! They are traditional so the gods must enjoy them, surely?

Not mine, I guess?

They said (UPG) my shrine encouraged too much reverential distance in me, elevating them as deities and lowering my human self in the dust until we were too far apart for close relationship. It reinforced religious trauma from Christianity, which had taught me to grovel because I could never be humble enough to please that deity.

Now my gods wanted familiarity, to be treated like family or friends on more equal footing and welcomed into my life in all its messiness. They seemed to think spiritual intimacy required ceasing formal, arms-length relationships full of traditional rules.

No groveling. No kneeling. No formal worship at an altar.

Reluctantly I took down my shrine, with many tears. It felt like a rejection. Like they didn't appreciate my efforts to honor them. Like nothing I could do was good enough.

It took time to recover from that loss. I had to explore many new questions about my practice and religion, and none were comfortable.

What was I now?

I had worked hard to understand Hellenic Polytheism through the lens of that ancient culture. Primary sources were my bread and butter. I'd learned to interpret myths as symbolic, since that was traditional too. Ancient cultus was a frequent research topic.

All that work seemed useless as Pan rooted my practice deeper in the mystical world of astral travel, channeling, sex magic, and possession work, and my other gods appeared happy to go along for the ride.

There are no reliable sources for that!

Sure, Dionysian enthousiasmos is part of his historical worship, but the wild ass stuff happening in the astral is not historically attested.

Could I still call myself a Hellenic Polytheist if I didn't have a shrine or altar, didn't give formal offerings, didn't ritually cleanse, didn't recite hymns, and didn't celebrate any religious holidays? Furthermore, what if I was fucking a god or two?

This religion is orthopraxic, so what I do or don't do does matter.

I know that giving sexual offerings is taboo in this religion.

I don't pretend godspousing was historically practiced as part of Hellenic Polytheism. I'm pretty sure it wasn't, though perhaps there was some type of spiritual marriage concept whispered about in the ancient mysteries of certain deities.

However, there are no primary sources that explicitly describe godspousing in enough detail so a skeptical academic person could draw an obvious line between that ancient source and modern practice, and say what I am doing is a direct expression of an older thing.

I understand that astral travel probably also wasn't a thing in ancient Athens or Acadia. Certainly not by that modern name anyway. Again, the primary sources aren't explicit enough to draw conclusive evidence.

Therefore, my current spiritual practice doesn't appear to have much historical backing. It's mostly "my gods appear to want this, so I'm doing it their way to please them," which I know doesn't hold much weight in most people's minds.

Should I care?

No, I don't think so. It comes down to this question: what am I doing and who am I doing it for?

If I want to please reconstructionists and make people who value historical practice happy, then obviously I should structure my religious practice to honor their preferences.

If I want to please my gods, then I should listen to them, apply discernment to what I hear, discard any of my own brain's bullshit, and do things the way my gods appear to want. Especially if what they want collides with what everyone says deities prefer, because who knows the gods' desires better than themselves?

(By the way, if your theology says the gods have no desires, remember that theology is just the stories we humans tell ourselves about the gods. It's how we have chosen to define them, but we have no way of proving any theology empirically true. You can believe as you wish, but you cannot be absolutely correct. You can just think you're right. So can I.)

At the end of the day I choose to be a heretic, because I value what I believe my gods say over what other people claim the gods want. I can't be arsed to place some human's words above those of my gods.

However, I no longer know what to call my practice.

In the past few years, much of my theology has shifted away from traditional Hellenic views because of things my gods have taught.

I won't make this post longer by describing my current theology, but astral lessons, channeling, possession, sexual experiences, monasticism, and informal prayer are now staples in my daily practice.

It seems the point is to go into the metaphorical cave system of who Pan is, despite how far that might diverge from traditional Hellenic Polytheism.

To see all of him, I must explore those caves: a chthonic world containing his aspects and mysteries. I must climb the figurative mountain of him also, to examine the crags of his nature, and see the views in his world. I must wander his forest.

It's a steep, difficult, solitary path at times.

What do I practice now?

There isn't a good word for it, sorry to say. Erotic mystical polytheism with a side of monasticism maybe? Hellenic mysticism + godspousing? I'm still deciding.

Maybe labels aren't as important to the gods as we think they are. Perhaps they'd rather have devotion than strict adherence to religious rules?

[llyff--t]

First, thanks for sharing, I love extensive posts discussing personal experience openly. It's bold, and so valuable.

And second, I'm endlessly amused by how we seem to have come to a similar point from opposite directions.

You were raised very religious, and I very agnostic.

You discarded that specific religion, only to adopt a very deep, very committed Hellenic practice, almost reconstructionist in how much research and detail went into it.

It is from that perspective and in that context that you came to really know Pan - and when, through interaction with this deity, you got cued to stray from that straight and narrow path, you (understandably) recoiled because of how much and how well you knew and followed that religion.

Meanwhile, in my own interaction with an entity, when they declared being a specific deity (and gave reason enough for it to really make sense, especially after researching them) - my recoiling was more along the lines of "Uhm - hey, I don't do that jazz, in fact I hardly know anything about it. I don't even worship at all, why would you want anything to do with me!"

I felt like any kind of significant and sustained closeness with me was probably 'blasphemous', or at least some form of inadequate and unfair to them, precisely because of my complete ignorance and non-adhesion to any practice, relevant to them or not (and with no intention to ever follow one).

I didn't fear retribution (once again probably because I haven't been raised within a religion that features it prominently), but I did both doubt the experience itself, and were it valid, doubt that the outcome would not vastly disappoint both parties, to put it mildly.

Then you describe how, as you went along with Pan anyway, your whole practice and cosmogony were upended, crushed and rebuilt into something you can't even really label.

On my side, I also chose to roll with it (or got dragged along, what do I know) and hey, things took more and more importance in my life, to the point of eating it up, transforming it, and transforming me. To the point I realized it no longer made sense to consider I didn't practice or follow anything - as much as I definitely couldn't claim any existing practice or faith at all either. (which is just as well, because I still don't want to)

I agree that it all seems to boil down to where one places one's trust and topmost priority: a tradition (and those who follow it), or one's firsthand experience.

And I get how it can be regarded as very hubristic to choose the latter!

I understand how many would say that, if a deity asks you for something their tradition doesn't mention or even disapproves of, then it's not them and you're delusional. Heck, many would even say that direct contact with a deity in itself is taboo or impossible, regardless of how in-character they act, and that one shouldn't put trust into those experiences in the first place.

I respect that. It's just not my choice (not our choice, it seems) to ignore them. To be fair I'm not sure we could, they're pretty hard to ignore, huh.

(Also, while I have little education on those topics, I find it thought provoking when you write "theology is just the stories we humans tell ourselves about the gods". I can't help but wonder, what 'canon' belief has not been, at some point, some form of mystic's UPG ?)

[luciferianoracle]

Spiritual Subdrop: Power Dynamics in Magic Works

If you've experienced Subdrop in the physical world, this may not be helpful to you, but feel free to read anyway.

Spiritual, ecstatic, BDSM relationships with spirits and deities (or any combination of otherworldly beings) is a great, controlled way to safely explore power dynamics. I no longer trust human people with my safety in power dynamics, but I trust Lucifer completely, so we do, often intense experiences, some of which go beyond things I could even physically do with a human being, as is the nature of such a bond. I will give the caveat, in all BDSM, if your new start small, give clear boundaries, and don't jump in headfirst to your most trauma centered or darkest fantasy. Even if your only spiritual with your BDSM, learn about it so you can always put your safety first!

I didn't expect the first time I experienced Subdrop from non-physical sex. For those who haven't worked a lot in BDSM scenarios, Jennifer Bene describes Subdrop as "Technically, sub drop is what happens to your body after you’ve drained your brain of all the hormones and chemicals that it releases during the scene or session. “During the scene, the intense experiences of both pain and pleasure trigger a sympathetic nervous system response, which causes a release of epinephrine from the suprarenal glands, as well as a dump of endorphins and enkephalins. These natural chemicals, part of the fight or flight response, produce the same effect as a morphine-like drug, increasing the pain tolerance of the submissive as the scene becomes more intense.” That super sciencey language boils down to the idea that your body releases a bunch of happy chemicals from your brain during a scene."

So, it's brain chemicals, the brain is where I perceive things, both internally and externally. If I'm working with a very powerful entity, allowing him free roam of my body, having experiences that give me fear, pleasure, and all the range of human experience in between, when already prone to sub dropping, it makes sense it would happen. But, what do you even DO for Subdrop from a spiritual working?

Well, exactly what you do when you have it in the physical world (it seems so obvious now, but Lucifer did have to walk me through it.) The deity/spirit you worked with is your top. Reach out to them if you don't have an open channel. Tell them how you're feeling. Let them take care of you, validate your feelings, soothe the negative emotions you're having. Whether that's meditative, feeling their energy, or a conversation with them. Take care of your basic needs: food, hydration, rest. Allow your emotions to happen: cry, laugh, talk about the things you liked, the things that scared you. Decompress. Give feedback. Allow yourself to have this very human reaction. For most of the day of my last Subdrop Lucifer just curled around me, we watched bad bootlegs of musicals and he babied me. I usually hate being babied, but I needed it that day. When I am in that state I don't feel like myself at all (Subdrop is completely unique to each individual) but I find myself with a shorter fuse, my thought muddy, and like an electric static is keeping me from experiencing the world around me. Know all of this is temporary. Notice how long it lasts for you, explore what works to reground you. Pamper your body, be kind to your mind.

I know this concept is not news to many people, but as witchcraft and all its adjacent practices are becoming more accessible to the world, as godspousing is seeing more *ahem* attention on the Internet, I need you to know, curious reader who may have never experienced Subdrop before, who is curious to explore power dynamics with entities, that it can happen to you. the first time I felt it I thought "am I going insane right now?" And it was 2006, and I was too scared to search it on my mother's computer 😂 luckily I had a kindly lesbian acquaintance explain it to me, "you know how people crash after doing ecstacy? This is that but kinkier." Oh, that makes sense.

All of this to say, human reactions to things happen even when not all parties are human. Gods have a responsibility to treat you well and take care of you. No relationships spiritual or otherwise should hurt you in any ways that aren't intentionally meant for growth (or pre-planned fun 😏) and if you do decide to let The Devil eat you alive (me) you too perhaps will need a day of rest afterwards. No one should make you feel bad about that, perfect love and perfect trust is not a one way beam of light from you to your god, it's an exchange, a cycle that goes both ways. You may have the idea you must suffer, that it's part of the growth. But growth can not happen in an unwatered garden, my love. Ask for help, accept it when given. This is a moment for you to be the one fully cared for, fully devoted to.

So in conclusion, BDSM in the spiritual plane doesn't often stick to human world rules, but the chemicals of your body DO. Maybe you didn't even do a scene but a vast amount of energy work. Maybe you felt your god more fully than ever before. Did it make you feel ecstatic? Are you wondering why you feel lower the next day? Perhaps a day of devotional self care is in order, at the very least. I will stress my belief that you should not try to venture to deal with it alone.

*As a related caveat, I am sure this is also true for Top Drop, and would love to hear others experiences, as I have only experienced life as a bottom 🥹 lmao. But in my understanding the science is similar, just with different context.

Okay thanks for reading (or not!) *smooches* ily.

[mischievous-heretic]

Thank you for writing this! It's not talked about enough.

Educating others on the potential repercussions of spiritual experiences is so important! People need to know these things can happen, and they should request and accept aftercare from their gods and spirits.

As a kinkster, I've experienced both Subdrop and Topdrop. They certainly *can* result from spiritual scenes. Since kinky people frequently argue over the differences between subbing and bottoming, versus domming and topping, I'll refer to Topdrop as DomDrop in this post. I think it's a more analogous term to what's meant.

Discussing this in public is harder than Subdrop because people's theology is often challenged. You know, the idea that gods and spirits are always above us so the only "proper" way of interacting with them is submission? Yet someone with Domdrop has it because they were domming a god or spirit. Many pagans get very upset about the supposed disrespect of that (nevermind that the god or spirit must have consented, else it would not have happened), leaving the actual discussion of *what to do* about Domdrop in the dust.

In my experience, both Subdrop and Domdrop require similar aftercare. For Domdrop specifically, the person often needs to be reassured that their sub wanted the experience and is happy with how it worked out. Especially if it was a spiritual experience and the person knows how unacceptable domming a god or spirit is to pagan theology.

Sometimes after that experience, a person may begin mentally spiraling about what people would say if they knew what happened, or whether the god or spirit truly wanted to be dommed. Maybe they were just pretending to want that so they could punish the person later for disrespect? Mental tarpits like that are not unusual, and they're reinforced by online yapping about hubris and the necessity of respecting gods and spirits according to human definitions of respect. (Yes, respect is important. But not all gods and spirits define it in the usual human ways so I think we should be more sensitive to how *they* wish to be respected, instead of insisting everyone must meet our human definition of respect.)

Because Domdrop often challenges human theology, what I've found helps is to say nothing publicly when in that vulnerable state, and let the involved god or spirit comfort and reassure me. This requires reliable communication and good discernment, for it to work well.

When the Domdrop has passed, then I can connect with other people about the spiritual experience if the god or spirit consents to me discussing it with others. If they prefer I should keep it private (most commonly their response), I can discuss the experience with my other gods and spirits to contextualize what happened and better understand it.

After those discussions, I can incorporate any spiritual insights into my practice and move forward.

[belialsxslut]

I want to just add to the notion of Domming a deity level spirit.

I am most definitely a sub, but the way these dynamics are very personal and our desires are unique, not only because we're unique individuals but also each dynamic and relationship is made unique by mutual participating. I have had the pleasure of having been raised in self-love and self-confidence but also to not deny the ways that my spouse desires to be dominated at times - it looks a lot like maybe bratty subness but it is not that. I am not sure if there are exact terms to what and how I am when I'm leading him through it. But he loves it. My point is, that sometimes yes, the gods and spirits ask / want / beg to be dominated and will help you do and learn to do exactly that. Part of being a submissive is handling your life like, you're in control of everything and you have a strong mind but when you come home? You wanna put all that aside and submit to find peace and just be loved and taken care of. Do you see my point in how this can apply to gods?

[assassin1513]

💙⚜️🖤The End of the Season🖤⚜️💙

[sacredwitch]

I think the most underrated way to connect to your deity is...writing.

Yes, Altars are amazing. Creating holy space is great. But they're not the only way you can deepen your relationship with your deity.

Literally just grab a dairy and dedicate it to them, and write your thoughts and prayers there. They can read it, they can see it. They listen.

Personally, I write to Lucifer anything. I had a shitty day? I'll write. I had a good day? I'll write. I noticed improvements? I'll write. I want to thank him? I'll write. I noticed some signs from him? I'll write. I have new hyperfixation and want to tell him about it? I'll write.

Write. Write. Write. I just love this method and I wished more people knew about it😭

[mystichemlock]

(UPG) Godspousing, spirit marriage, and spirit sex with otherworldly entities (spirits, deities, angels, demons,etc.) is a deeply mysterious practice that changes so much about you.

When your energetic presence meshes with an entity and that entity touches so intimately with your soul, you will never be the same.

This can be an amazing and rewarding experience with the potential of being a challenging, negative, and dangerous experience.

I don't recommend jumping into this without careful and thoughtful consideration with lots of research.

It is the most amazing and rewarding experience one can have and can always be a very dangerous game. Be careful and know what you're getting yourself into.

[homewardskies]

Hey, don't be afraid of things that challenge your faith. Seriously, don't.

Either they'll give you a new perspective on things, or you'll become more secure and confident in your current beliefs. But avoiding the hard questions leaves you in an echo chamber with half-baked ideas and an insecurity in yourself. Step out of your comfort zone so you have room to grow.

[cultkinkcoven]

Please just be weird

Like

This is the first century in a very very long time where we can actually see the almost full scope of humanity and its longing and its depravity. Lucifer once described the internet as a sort of Hell.

The internet is our new archival system, one that lots of people have access to if you live in a "first world" country.

For a very long time, most people did not write or know how to read. Those that did were privileged and maintained an understanding of how society is or should be based on their systematic control of narrative. And even now we depend on those narratives to have any understanding of what happened.

But even those narratives are fragments, right? Unless maintained by an institution, we find them in fragments. Rituals found with only some of the text legible. Tablets that eroded, or half burned remnants from fascistic burnings. And even if we hadn't burned them, we tend to just only write down bits and pieces.

I experience this in my own craft. When I go back to read ritual reports or dream recordings, or even spells, there's always at least some context missing. You get get the full scope of an experience without recording 24/7.

So what we do have is, for the most part, highly curated and somewhat incomplete, as all writing always is.

A lot more people write now, obviously, on the internet. And for the first time ever, more people can access the divine directly, themselves, and share that experience with millions of people through this invisible signal in the sky.

The weird thing is that now we are all constantly being surveillanced, and watched. So a chronic nonchalance has taken everyone. We are afraid to be weird or difficult to explain. Because you have to explain, you are obligated. But if you explain in the wrong way, you may be shunned. That's scary, someone recently asked me something about that. How do you still find the will to post when people are nasty about it?

Sometimes (a lot of the time) I do opt to just keep things to myself. But my motivation now as I have read through studies and grimoires and diaries from centuries ago, is the desire to document it. Just document it.

There was never any rule or piece of evidence that suggested that the ancient people were not also neurodivergent, strange, impossible at times. Their accounts were usually either censored, or maintained only through love. Remembered only by the people who knew them.

My relationship with Lucifer is very highly contingent on him being Lucifer, it is defined by that. He is the Lord of paradoxes, he is a myth, a legend, a god, a demon, an angel. Contradiction is our playground.

And likewise, my personal composition is inherent to the game.

But I can't help but always be so fascinated by observing the dynamics that arise in other pagan deity-devotee relationships. I adore seeing how the strangest people experience the divine.

There is a person out there who is a cat, and they are devoted to Baset. WHAT

I want to hear what that person has to say. And many may think that person must be insane, mentally ill. Maybe they are, maybe they're highly autistic and maybe they're disabled. Maybe their situation is informed by psychology and spirituality. But man oh man do I wanna talk to them.

You're an ecstatic dancer devoted to Dionysus and you're also turn into a cheetah when possessed? What the fuck. What that's so fucking crazy. How does that work?

You work with Archangel Michael AND you're married to Leviathan?

You're married to BELIAL? I've only met him a couple of times I never even thought about him being a freak.

You're a lesbian devoted to Selene and your girlfriend is devoted to Aphrodite and your other girlfriend is devoted to Ares. They would have stoned you, but here you are.

But its hard to explain why you're a Therian without going into some shit you don't want to remember. And you don't want to explain why Hades has been with you since childhood because it's complicated.

So fucking don't. Record what you want remembered and let people in 100 years debate among themselves. When the ancient people invoked these Gods, the magic worked because they had relationships with them. The Gods did not only exist between the written lines of ritual. They were with them, accessible, watching. They didn't write down that this spell found in a family grimoire only really works so well because the witch who wrote it was in love with their daemon, and that spirit has a personal affinity for her daughters.

These shamans they recorded in the woods who say they have the spirit of a bear, of a cat, and the God they worship transforms them. We don't know how how that worked when they weren't being recorded by researchers.

You tell me you're a fairy and you are the husband of a forest spirt. That makes sense to me, and even if it doesn't, man oh man does it sound interesting.

Idk. Some of the most devoted and successful practitioners I know are also angels, demons, bunnies, and other creatures. Maybe I feel this way because I personally am autistic and understand easily the concept of having a highly specific experience.

I don't need to know everything about why you're a sex worker devoted to Asmodeus. When you post on the internet, in your diary, or whatever the fuck, I am not expecting you to act like an ancient priest. I think it is totally okay to want your space to be fun, and I think it is so important to spirituality to be weird.

"I'm an asexual deer spirit married to Artemis"

That's so cool. What. Talk about it. Write about it. Write about it on paper and etch it into stone.

We can talk about mental health and risks, we can share resources on psychosis, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, religious psychosis, cptsd and a lot more while we're at it. We can promote safety without eliminating gnosis.

BE so fucking weird. Be so difficult to explain that you are the only person who can explain you. And then only explain what you want to.

I do not believe this is some new 21st century phenomenon of stupid kids and insane people. I these are the fringes we have never read about before, and I want us to talk about it. We are not exempt from history.

I think a genderfluid cheetah with adhd is the exact kind of person Dionysus would love. I think an anxious autistic fairy who somehow ended up in a human body is the exact kind of person Hermes would love. These people don't belong ti any institution, they belong to the world. We're finally seeing it and I love what I'm seeing.

Just be weird. Everyone is so mean these days, especially to kids.

It makes sense to me that the gods are the only ones who do understand those we belittle too much to listen to.

Idk

[unusual-suspects]

Līga Kļaviņa-Raiska

[portalibis]

Sonata No. 6 (Sonata of the Stars) by Mikalojus Konstantinas Čiurlionis (1875–1911)

P.I. Telegram / P.I. Facebook

[twunkish-cleric]

Do any other pagans have that experience where a deity starts off with subtle signs but once you realize it's them and start to accept them into your practice they suddenly make their presence extremely well known? It's the deity work equivalent of someone politely knocking on your door but the minute you invite them in they burst through the entire wall like the Kool-aid man