Thanks for the response, sorry in the delay answering back your questions!
I also wanted to ask you something if thatâs okay. You said questioning is really central to Judaism. Do you ever feel like thereâs a limit? Like is there a point where asking too many questions feels disrespectful? Also, what happens if you start doubting everything? In Islam, weâre allowed to doubt and question, but if we stop believing completely, thatâs a bigger thing. We can come back of course, but itâs serious.
I don't really see that there is a limit, no. Not to the extent of the questions asked, but there is respect or disrespect depending on your intention behind the questions. Are you asking questions to learn? Or are you trying to tear down Judaism?
During Passover dinner, the Seder (which means "order", as in doing things in an order), we read a special book called a Haggada that includes all the things we do and the order, the "seder" that we do these things before and after the main dinner course, along with blessings, songs, and stories we tell including the Passover story of the Exodus from Egypt. Included in this is even a section called the Four Questions (which is actually either 5 questions or 1 question, "Why is tonight different from all other nights?", followed by four answers in the form of questions, depending on how you look at it), which is supposed to be sung by the youngest child, with the table joining in at parts. Also included in the Haggadah is a story, not about the Exodus from Egypt, but about a Passover Seder held by a family with four sons. Not any family in particular, and it's written in such a way that the reader is the father of these children, and we are being told what to do if you have these four children at your table.
It is not long, so I will just put an English translation of a Haggadah for this section, in italics.
Blessed is the Omnipresent One, blessed be He! Blessed is He who gave the Torah to His people Israel, blessed be He! The Torah speaks of four types of children: one is wise, one is wicked, one is simple, and one does not know how to ask.
The Wise One asks: "What is the meaning of the laws and traditions G-d has commanded?" (Deuteronomy 6:20) You should teach him all the traditions of Passover, even to the last detail.
The Wicked One asks: "What does this ritual mean to you?" (Exodus 12:26) By using the expression "to you" he excludes himself from his people and denies G-d. Shake his arrogance and say to him: "It is because of what the L-rd did for me when I came out of Egypt..." (Exodus 13:8) "For me" and not for him -- for had he been in Egypt, he would not have been freed.
The Simple One asks: "What is all this?" You should tell him: "It was with a mighty hand that the L-rd took us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
As for the One Who Does Not Know How To Ask, you should open the discussion for him, as it is written: "And you shall explain to your child on that day, 'It is because of what the L-rd did for me when I came out of Egypt." (Exodus 13:8)
This is a great story because there is a lot to discuss about it and a lot of layers of symbolism here (one of the more hidden ones that you would only see by looking at the Hebrew I will reveal shortly). But I want to focus in on the difference between the Wise Child and the Wicked Child. All the three children who know how to ask are essentially asking the same question, "what is all this Seder stuff and what is the meaning of it?". The youngest who cannot yet ask is presumed to be wondering the same. But the intentions and tone are different between the three. The wisest wants to learn everything. He wants to know the fine details, and he will be provided with those details.
The simple Child isn't one the wavelength of the Wise child, he is curious but more generally so, and would not appreciate the details. You are instructed to tells him the broad meaning of what is going on and what it is we are celebrating, which is God taking US out of Egypt and liberating US from bondage.
The Wicked child is using a tone and language that sets him apart from the rest of the table, and the broader Jewish people. He is asking the meaning of what is going on, but not what might be the meaning for himself. He wants to know why his parents give a shit, "what is this to YOU?". He's not interested in being included in that meaning, and the question is a challenge to the legitimacy of the Passover ritual. He is being a bit of a troll, for lack of a better word. And so the reader, the parent, is instructed to exclude him for the answer. This is about what God did for the Israelite people, of which the Wicked Son does not seem interested in being a part of. He gets a Torah quote about what God did for "Me". Interestingly, the child too young to ask gets the same quote as an answer to his nonexistent question, and it's not really explained why that is, although the tone of the answer is certainly different...that it is talking about "Me" and not "Us" is not emphasized like it is for the Wicked child, and it is not explained, but we are not shaking the arrogance of the child who does not yet know how to ask here. Perhaps what really makes the child part of the Jewish people is the ability to ask questions, for now he is an observer soaking everything in, brand new. The Seder is foreign to this child as it is for the Wicked child, but for very different reasons. The Wicked child makes the Passover story foreign to him by choice. The one too who does not know how to ask also doesn't know his family are liberated slaves. The Wicked child excludes himself from the liberation by choice.
But between the Wise and Wicked child we see the widest difference in intention. The Wise Child wishes to learn every detail because he loves what is going on, he loves his Judaism, and he wants to expand his knowledge. The Wicked child is trying to troll his parents, he doesn't even see himself in what is going on or his Judaism. So he gets the same energy back as an answer.
That is, perhaps, where the line is of "respect". The intention behind the question. Why you are asking.
Interestingly, I told you there was a layer of symbolism only found in the Hebrew of this section of the Haggadah. It is in the word used for "Wicked" - "Rasha" - ŚšÖžŚ©ÖžŚŚą
This is from the root "Ra" - ŚšÖ·Śą - which by itself means "Bad". But there is an extra letter in the middle, the "Shin" "Ś©" that gives the "sh" sound. This letter is sometimes used as an abbreviation for one of the more mystical names for God which is "Shaddai" (I will not recreate it in Hebrew here).
In fact this letter including what loosely resembles the rest of the name is "written" on the left hand with leather straps of the "Tefillin", which are ritual items worn during morning weekday prayer. The Shin is also seen on one of the two black boxes present on the Tefilin, which each contain a parchment with the Torah section which includes the Shemah, which is the most important prayer in Judaism and said when you rise and when you go to bed, it is also said on the deathbed. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One..." followed by a passage stating to teach this message to our children, to say it when we get up and when we lie down, to bind it on our arms and let it serve as a symbol on our foreheads. And so we do just that with Tefillin.
And so, pardon my going off topic here, but back to the point, the Shin is symbolic for God and here it appears in the middle of the word used for "Wicked". What does this mean?
God is in the Wicked Child, as well. Even though he asks his question in a way that excludes himself from his people and their liberation from slavery, even though he asks it in a trolling and disrespectful manner, God is still part of him.
So even if you go over the line into what might be disrespect, God will not leave you.
Questions that may be seen as straight-up heretical in other religions are allowed in Judaism. "Does God Exist?" "Did God dictate the Torah to Moses on Sinai or is this a book written by men who transcribed orally-passed-down traditions and stories?"
You will probably not find many atheist or agnostic Orthodox Jews, at least not that will openly admit to it, but this is not uncommon to see in Conservative and Reform Judaism. Judaism is an ethnoreligion that is mainly about what you do and how you live, more than it is about holding any particular dogmatic beliefs. Belief in God is therefore not a requirement to be Jewish. If your mother was Jewish when you were born or if you ever converted, you too are considered Jewish, always. Even if you are atheist. Even if you are the Wicked Child. Even if you convert or are forced to convert to another religion. Judaism will always consider you to be Jewish.
Belief in God is not a prerequisite to living Jewishly, either. Because Judaism is about what you do, not about what you think.
Nontraditional ideas about God's nature are likewise compatible, and this is where I fall, largely agreeing with the Jewish philosopher Baruch Spinoza who lived in the Netherlands in the 1600's. Well, he was something of a Wicked Child who renounced his Judaism and felt all organized religion was obsolete, and was likewise excommunicated from his Jewish community (unclear if over ideology or tax issues) and I disagree with Spinoza here. But he was also known as the "God-drunk man", and had this wild idea that God and the material universe are not separate entities at all, rather the material Universe is simply God manifesting into physical reality, and God is All, and God is not supernatural, rather the opposite, God is Nature Itself. This is called "panenetheism", with the closely related "pantheism" being the idea that God and the material Universe are exactly the same thing (and unlike panENtheism, God has no nature outside the physical universe...panENtheism is more like the Universe is the physical part of God).
Today, Spinoza has been reclaimed by the many Jews who agree with his idea of God, but we apply it to Judaism instead of separating from Judaism. A small American sect of Judaism called Reconstructionist Judaism was founded by Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan (1881-1983) who also largely agreed with Spinoza's panentheism and viewed God as a "process". If I had Reconstructionist synagogues in my area I would probably gravitate there. But nonetheless I have learned about Spinoza both from Conservative Rabbis in Jewish high school as well as an ultraorthodox Chabad Rabbi in a college class on Jewish Theology.
And one more question. In Islam, we have the idea that the Quran is the perfect word of God. Like not just inspired but exact. Do you believe the Torah is like that too? Or is it more like guidance that you work with?
I will give two answers here, the traditional Jewish answer, and my answer (which is held by many liberal Jews).
The traditional Jewish answer is the Torah (the first 5 books of our Bible which encompass the stories of Creation, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac/Ishmael, Jacob (who was renamed "Yisrael" - Israel, after he wrestles with God's angel in a dream), Joseph and how the children of Israel end up migrating to Egypt, the enslavement, the Exodus and the 40 years of wandering in the desert until the Israelites re-enter the Land of Israel as Moses watches and dies from the top of a mountain) was dictated by God to Moses on Mt Sinai letter by letter exactly - including events which happen after the Israelites leave Mt. Sinai - including Moses's own death scene...which is a little silly and a major plot hole as it were. Ancient Rabbis attempt to fill the plot hole in various ways. Some play it straight and say Moses cried while writing his death scene as dictated by God. Other, more fantastical interpretations involve all the future events being transcribed without the spaces between words and thus were illegible until those events happened and the spaces between words appeared. Some say yes future events were transcribed but that Moses's death scene was written by Joshua, who took charge of the Israelites after Moses.
The rest of our Bible (The Tanakh is split into 3 sections, the Torah, the Prophets/Nevi'im, and Writings/Ketuvim) are considered written by men but divinely inspired, with Prophets being considered more directly divinely inspired than Ketuvim (with much of Prophets being supposedly written by the Prophets in question), with some of Ketuvim considered purely allegorical by some ancient Rabbis.
Many particularly more liberally-minded Jewish scholars of today consider the truth of the Torah to be the result roughly of what is termed "Source theory" or "Documentary hypothesis", and this is what I believe.
Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia
As alluded to earlier, Source Theory posits that 4 distinct sources of orally-passed-down traditions were compiled and edited down into one book in ancient Israel several hundred years before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth (much later than the events of the Torah would have taken place). This can explain differing linguistic styles and names for God used, certain sons of Jacob being cast in better light depending on if the source came from the tribe of Judah in southern Israel or from the rest of Israel in the north descended from Jacob's other sons. This idea has been more recently re-evaluated and found to not line up so cleanly with what the theory initially thought, there may have been editing periods later on, etc etc, but that the general idea of the Torah being a compilation record of oral traditions passed down over time still holds.
Events of the Torah including Jews leaving Israel and being slaves in Egypt, the exile, the supposed wars of conquest of Cannanites on the return to Israel...there isn't archeological evidence for any of this. As @homochadensistm might attest to, the Hebrew people that would become the Jewish people were always in the Levant and split off from Cannanites and their polytheistic religion at some point to become a monotheistic animal sacrifice cult centered around the Temple of Jerusalem.
And if so, is Torah meaningless? Written by men and not even historically accurate?
Of course not. We have made it Sacred. We tell its story over and over and over in yearly cycles. We live by its laws (or rather, our best interpretation of those laws according to questions we ask). It is the story of our people. If the Passover Exodus from slavery did not happen in Egypt, we know liberation from oppressors is something that has happened over and over and over in our history. It remains the story of our people. As written in the Haggadah:
...as it is said: "And He said to Abraham, `You shall know that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will enslave them and make them suffer, for four hundred years. But I shall also judge the nation whom they shall serve, and after that they will come out with great wealth.'"
This is what has stood by our fathers and us! For not just one alone has risen against us to destroy us, but in every generation they rise against us to destroy us; and the Holy One, blessed be He, saves us from their hand!
If nothing in the Torah is historically true, this passage in the roughly 1200-1500 year old Haggada is true. In every generation, somebody comes along to destroy the Jewish people and every time this happens, God liberates us. That is the story of the Jewish people. Whether or not it happened in Egypt is irrelevant. My grandparents survived the actual Holocaust, they were slaves, and they were liberated, to the British Mandate of Palestine which became Israel. Later on they immigrated to the US where I live. The Haggadah tells us to tell the Passover story as if we ourselves were liberated from slavery in Egypt...well, my grandparents told the story having literally been liberated from slavery camps in a foreign land and having returned to Israel.
So. Long story short, my relationship to the Torah is a complex one but ultimately this text is as sacred to us as it is because we have made it so. And if it didn't tell our past liberation as written, it told the future cycles of oppression and liberation after it was written. And in all of those senses, it is God's word. Who are we to say if God wanted to hand His Word to the Jewish people that he would do it all at once to Moses on Sinai including events that hadn't yet transpired? Maybe God's Word comes about from the orally-passed down traditions that get compiled into one book. Maybe that's exactly how God does it?
I refer you to my last reblog in this thread, and the Deuteronomy verse about God's word not being in Heaven, nor across the sea, but in our hearts and on our lips. It's unimportant if our modern-day Torah is the same document as the first time it was ever written down. And it probably wasn't. And the first time was probably different than the first time all of those orally passed down stories and traditions were told. But that's ok. At some point it was a work in progress. And after it was finalized, its interpretations continue to be a work in progress. Judaism is an evolving religion and at some point in our history, our sacred texts evolved with us.
This is different than Islam which, as you said, believes itself to hold a true, unaltered and uncorrupted version of the Word of God and really prides itself on that.
I hope this answers your questions. Got a lot longer than I thought it would be lol.