Tired

[b-side-takes]

i feel the need to reiterate this

the study that concluded trans women on average make less than trans men only took into account full-time jobs, meaning it ignored data from trans people in part time jobs. trans men are more than *twice* as likely as trans women to have part-time jobs, which basically by definition pay less than full-time jobs. from this study (sample size 27,000+ usamerican transgender people) which does include part-time jobs, trans men [in the united states on average] make about 30% less than trans women, which is a PRETTY BIG NUMBER to fuck up on a reporting decision don'tcha think

[cheerfulomelette]

Peer reviewed tags:

data from larger studies consistently show trans women make more than trans men on average which doesn't have to mean anything no one has to have male privilege that's just being so locked in cisnormative thinking you can't imagine anything else “which one has male privilege?” it's like asking a lesbian couple which one is the man

[b-side-takes]

you (and prev) are both entirely correct, the main point of this post is to debunk those fuckass posts about how trans men "Aren't seen as faggots in the eyes of the state" because one study with whack data collection says we make 10 cents more, not to say that transfems have secret evil male privilege (because they don't)

[secondlina]

No transphobes allowed, only transborbs.

Check out my stuff!

✧Read Namesake✧ ✧Read Crow Time✧ ✧Store✧ ✧Patreon✧

[vampirebeverage]

I am fucking BEGGING transmascs (and everyone else) to not let the animosity of a VERY SMALL GROUP of very online transfems impact how you interact with transfems or think about transfems.

please, please, please remember that this "hating transmascs" and "kill all TMEs" bullshit is just a few edgy weirdos on the internet who enjoy saying inflammatory things for shock value.

transfems are not your enemy, and YES, you do actually need to unlearn transmisogyny. Not because you're transmasc, but because we live in a transmisogynistic society.

transfems are not a hivemind, there's no broader transfem consensus that transmascs are Evil Privileged Abusers, but the small group of people who think that way WANT you to believe that they are representative of trans women everywhere. they're super not. they really are just a handful of angsty people online looking for someone to pick on.

all trans people have more commonalities than differences. there aren't two distinct species of trans people from two different planets, there are just trans people with a wide diversity of experiences and walks of life. we are all affected by the same systems of oppression.

find community and mutual support with transfems. build solidarity and have conversations about how we can help each other. the only way we all get through this shit is together.

[seranine]

“scratch a transphobe and a misogynist bleeds”

siobhan o'leary gives us a brilliant deconstruction of transphobia, and transmisogyny specifically

Source: https://twitter.com/siobhanftb/status/1020309083423821825?s=21

[transgirlpinup]

This is some scalding hot fucking tea and I’m here for it.

[this-is-trans-joy]

everyone loves to hate terfs until they realise that it actually entails rejecting bioessentialism entirely and then suddenly you’re “taking things too seriously” and you “don’t have a sense of humour” like i’m sorry but saying protect the dolls doesn’t make you immune to terfism it has seeped into every corner of mainstream feminism and unless you’re actively searching it out and checking your own biases you will always be at risk of sharing a space with terfs

[this-is-trans-joy]

“Only women can—” nope. “But all men—” nah. “The divine femininity of—” gonna stop you right there. “Everyone born ama—” if you finish that sentence I’ll kill you. “Men don’t experience—” you’re wrong. “Gender isn’t real but sex is imm—” *loud incorrect buzzer*

It also goes without saying that bioessentialism inherently can’t be trans inclusive no matter how hard you try. “All men including trans men—” probably not. “This is only a woman’s issue—” is it really? “Afabs only—” why? “All trans men are like—” what? what are they like? finish the sentence i dare you.

[doubleca5t]

Listen, fellow trans women, I love you all, but if you think that trans men or transmascs are an oppressor class you need to log the fuck off because you are being brainpoisoned by discourse-mongers. That is a legitimately rocks for brains take

[doubleca5t]

There is a HUUUUUGE gap between "transfems experience a unique intersection of oppressions which are not experienced by transmascs", which is true, "some passing trans men benefit from male privilege", which is true, "trans people are not immune to transphobic rhetoric and this can sometimes take the form of transmascs engaging in transmisogyny", which is true, and "transmascs should be treated as equivalent to cis men because trans men are men and therefore as men they are a danger to trans women" like do you see where the gigantic leap of logic comes in here?

[doubleca5t]

There is something personally offensive to me about accounts that go out of their way to post about transmascs being dangerous or untrustworthy or transmisogynistic when the primary danger to trans women right now is the goddamn United States government. Like we've got people in the white house who would outlaw all HRT if given the opportunity and you're gonna post about trans men?? I don't even mean this in a "we have bigger fish to fry" sort of way I mean this is the sense that building solidarity is one of the most important things you can do when faced with a hostile government and society. It's not just that the claims being made are bullshit and transphobic it's that the whole thing feels actively self-destructive toward creating any kind of community that's of any use to anyone

[juliangeneral]

Beats you to death with hammers

[keenkryptonut]

[flowery-kisser]

If you are a trans woman who hates trans men, get out.

If you are a trans man who hates trans women, get out.

I won't tolerate any hatred towards any trans people here.

[thehollowmite]

If you a trans man and hate nonbinary people, get out.

If you are a trans woman and hate nonbinary people, get out.

If you are nonbinary and you hate binary trans people, get out.

If you hate trans people, get out.

[this-is-trans-joy]

I think the best part of this blog is the fact that online spaces have been trying to act like the trans community is divided and that transmascs and transfems are inherently opposed to each other, meanwhile every other ask in my inbox or addition on my posts completely debunks this.

Transmascs are loving and supporting their transfem partners or friends or family and vice versa, they’re swapping clothes with each other or helping each other with their HRT injections or buying each other plushies and cute little trinkets, they’re playing video games with each other, asking each other out, dating and marrying each other, they’re saying such beautiful words about each other hoping that the other will read them and smile, they’re protecting each other from transphobes or helping them to escape their families or offering them a place to stay and a couch to crash on, they’re sharing music recs and teaching each other new skills and creating new things together. They’re meeting and talking and laughing and sharing and building new lives together.

Never let anyone tell you that the community is divided. There is so much solidarity out there, happening every second, and it will continue happening until the end of time.

Transmascs and transfems loving each other forever and always, okay?

[tboyoceanus]

I love trans men and the world is better every single day for having trans men in it

[intersexelphie]

I want to boost everything this person has said and add on.

The reason I call myself a tomboy now, despite it being seen as a childish word and having had someone swear at me over it because ‘tHeRe’S nO suCh thInG as BoY thInGs anD giRL thIngS sHut uP’ is because I couldn’t call myself that or be like that when I was a kid. It was seen as a negative thing and I was already bullied enough. “Looking like a boy” was the worst thing that could happen to a girl.

And I’m not even 26 yet. We aren’t talking 30+ years ago, we are talking 2000s and even 2010s. It’s only since trans people have become more accepted in the past few years that gender nonconformity has too.

And the people who helped me accept my gender nonconformity more than anyone else? Were trans people. They taught me, “there’s nothing wrong with how you feel. You’re still a valid woman no matter what you wear, how you have your hair or what you’re into ❤️”

And don’t even get me started on how people treat gender nonconforming men. JK Rowling has a lot of nerve to be like “uwu boys can wear dresses and only us gendercrits accept that!” when she has, even in recent works, made femininity in men a negative trait, as well as making masculinity in women a negative trait also.

A lot of people still don’t accept gnc people even now. Just last year I had someone tell me they’d never let their daughter “dress like a boy”, and I’m always terrified to walk into a bathroom in case the next JK Rowling is in there, sees my gender expression and pepper sprays me or worse.

“There’s no such thing as boy things and girl things.” I don’t need to be told that and I’m sure 99% of trans people also don’t need to be told that. Tell that to the society that hates us both instead of actively encouraging that hate.

[androgynealienfemme]

Gonna point out the og tweet thread is now full of terfs saying that life was better for gay people in the fucking 80s, that it was super easy for them to be a tomboy in the 70s and 80s and therefore it must have been that way for everyone, and that it was totally acceptable to be a gnc gay person in the 80s! 🤪

They’re rewriting history as we speak to try to argue trans acceptance is making it harder to be gay and gnc for youth than it was to be gay in the 80s. This is a blatant lie.

[trans-mask-left]

The fucking 80s??? As in, “aids crisis” 80s?? As in, “the government actively avoided funding research to help gay people” 80s????

Man I knew terfism was brain rot but I didn’t think it was this bad.

[socialistexan]

Actually I'm not going to just keep this in the tags

[what-even-is-thiss]

Seeing people say that trans men don’t experience specific oppression because “women don’t have power over men” wow boy do I have a long list of things you could be made aware of my friend

[what-even-is-thiss]

A blanket statement that “women don’t have power over men” is crazy like have you been taught in school about white women owning slaves? Straight women going on massive campaigns against gay men? Are you aware of how cis women treat trans men? Have you been taught nothing in school or your personal life of how white women use their perceived fragility to harm black men even today? Have you noticed how differently people tend to view women teachers who sleep with their students as opposed to men?

Intersectional feminism can and should look at the ways that privileged women use their positions to harm people around them, including underprivileged men. If you make that kind of blanket statement, like where have you been for the past five hundred years?

[what-even-is-thiss]

Like especially if you’re an American saying that. That gets me so pissed off. White women regularly got black men lynched on purpose using their position as white women to do it. There is a long, long history of white cis women in the United States using their position in society to hurt people. Learn your own damn history.

[what-even-is-thiss]

I’m just so pissed off after seeing that, dude. Just because you experience oppression doesn’t mean that you can’t also be an oppressor because of your position. Learn some self awareness. You’re an adult. Come to terms with your capacity for harm. Learn some fucking nuance.

[st-dionysus]

Every day people find new and woke ways to tell us to man up and bury our feelings. New and woke ways to call us bitchy, whiny, and bossy. New and woke ways to say we're hysterical. New and woke ways to define us by their assumptions of our genitals. New and woke ways to victim blame us for the abuse we face. Isn't it fun? Are you having fun? Aren't we all having so much fun?

[mecha-girlie]

we need to start understanding TERFs as the serial sexual harrassers that they all are. obsessing over our genitals and private sex lives completely fucking unprompted. terminal inability to mind their own business when it comes to a stranger’s body. functionally identical to catcallers and gross men that harass women on the street. that shit is creepy and rapey, and we should call it like it is.

[youpeoplepissmeoff]

terfs aren't the ones writing their explicit rape fantasies and sending them to women, that's you guys actually!

[mecha-girlie]

i have no idea what the fuck you’re referring to, but you people are the ones constantly fantasizing about violating us in bathrooms and changing rooms by drawing attention to our bodies when we’re minding our own business. you people are the ones who can’t go five seconds without calling us “porn addicts” because you fundamentally cannot conceive of us in a nonsexual context. you people are the ones who show up in OUR fucking spaces to loudly talk about our sexual lives completely unprompted. every single interaction i’ve had with one of you creeps has always been you assholes finding and harassing me. i have never willingly been anywhere near you people because i find you all repulsive and horrible, but you seek us out, for the express purpose of harassing us. creep.

[fantastigasmical]

Love the TERF showing up to sexually harass trans people and accuse us of bullshit she made up out of nowhere just to prove this post right. They're essentially a sex cult.

[fantastigasmical]

Aaaaaannnnnd she's a racist weirdo who thinks vaccines for allergies are a plan to commit genocide against anyone with asthma.

Remember, TERFs are pretty much a fucking cult.

[nekuro9]

"terfs aren't the ones writing their explicit rape fantasies and sending them to women, that's you guys actually!"

HAH. I'm a straight up cis woman and even then terfs gleefully write their explicit fantasies of how I'm gonna be sexually assaulted and murdered by my closest friends, as some sorta punishment for not agreeing with them. If you argue with one of em it's GUARANTEED they'll randomly bring up your genitals in gross, violent and or explicit ways.

They'll fantasize about me having a penis and how everything i say and do is secretly fuelled by my "male sexual aggression" or whatever and then proceed to make fun of the genitals and body they imagine i have.

They'll assume I'm a trans man and then move on to say the most misogynistic shit you've ever heard about my body and my assumed ability to give birth or my supposed sexual subordination to "males", in graphic detail.

What a laugh.

[your-fave-hates-ai]

YOU

YOU HATE AI !!

[very-gay-alkyrion]

[dragon-in-a-fez]

thinking about the time some terf dipshit on twitter said "you weirdos will be saying TREES are a social construct next" and I got nerdsniped and waded in like "trees ARE a social construct. there is no fundamental binary characteristic that separates trees from other plants" and well, I'll spare you the details but the conversation ended with the dipshit yelling "PALM TREES HAVE WOOD" which is hilarious because "wood" actually does have a pretty unambiguous, binary definition and palms in fact do not qualify

[genderkoolaid]

Transgender men faced the greatest risk of IPV in the past year. This study expands upon existing research documenting the elevated prevalence of experiencing violence within TGD communities to look at a broad range of violence experiences and documenting differences within TGD subgroups. Our work shows that the association between gender identity and violence was in many instances greatest among transgender men, a demographic group that has often been excluded from GBV research. Nearly half (47%) of transgender men in our study reported experiencing at least 1 form of IPV in the past year. This was over 40% higher than cisgender women and nearly 30% higher than transgender women. These results are in line with previous research that has documented the critically high levels of IPV facing transgender communities. Much of the literature on IPV among transgender communities has centered on transgender women. This is likely because much of the transgender and violence research has come from HIV funding, studying populations at disproportionately high risk of acquiring HIV through penile-anal sexual intercourse. While important, given that transgender men were much more likely to experience IPV in our study, more attention to transgender men and their risk for violence is needed. As such, our results add to the limited body of literature exploring differences in experiences of violence within the transgender community. When we explored these experiences by the type of IPV experienced, transgender men were more likely to report both emotional, controlling, or threatening IPV as well as physical or sexual IPV, with 31% of transgender men reporting experiencing physical or sexual IPV in the past year, compared with only 3% of the total sample. Given these stark numbers, it is essential that IPV screening and services are expanded to ensure they are accessible and safe for transgender men. Current IPV services are often framed as violence against women services and thus may not feel welcoming or accessible for transgender men.

— Physical, Sexual, and Intimate Partner Violence Among Transgender and Gender-Diverse Individuals

now think about every ""joke"" post about trans men being kept in the closet or detransitioned by their abusive cis boyfriend. that blames the trans man and makes it seem like an embarrassment on his part. this is why the trans community needs the word transandrophobia because we have so much shit we need to discuss and unwork

[twoblondesmaybemore]

Trans men are affected by transphobia and misogyny, and if you fucking kids could talk about it without inventing a word that implies we’re oppressed for being men that would be great. Thanks.

[genderkoolaid]

Other words do exist. Many people, including myself, use anti-transmasculinity (ATM) to discuss the overarching issue of violence and discrimination against transmasculinized people. Regardless of which term is used, people broadly agree that this is an intersectional form of discrimination, in which misogyny plays a major role. But the misogyny we experience is undeniably shaped in many ways by patriarchal notions of masculinity & deviant masculinity, which is what "androphobia" is really meant to signify.

I would highly recommend you read the writing of the man who coined the term, if you haven't. This post provides a lot of crucial context. He is also a grown man, as are many people who use and discuss ATM using this term, and being condescendingly ageist helps no one.

Ultimately, the conversation has gone best when we focus less on which word is best, and more on the actual oppression being faced and what can be done about it. After nearly five years of being involved in the transandrophobia discussion, it has only made more committed to feminism and being anti-misogynistic, and overall there has been a lot of good, nuanced, intersectional discussion of how masculinity and manhood play a complex role in oppression. There are a lot of people who did not have the language to describe the interpersonal and systemic abuse and trauma they'd experienced before reading people talking about transandrophobia. Policing the use of this word only serves to shut down already vulnerable and silenced people.

[twoblondesmaybemore]

And using it paints the violence that trans men face for deviating from their assigned gender as something predicated on our masculinity or transmasculinity, rather than our deviation from our assigned gender. They don’t hate us for being men in the wrong way, they don’t hate us for being masculine, they hate us for being transgender and they’ll do the exact same to trans women given half the chance. You’re hammering a “no girls allowed” sign into your discussion of transphobia. You think trans women are protected from domestic violence in a way that we’re not? You think they’re considered a less acceptable target for abuse? Like? What are you trying to say by implying the struggles we face are unique to trans men? That’s my problem with the label- it implies that other trans people don’t have these experiences. You’re not losing anything by talking about transphobia and oppositional sexism using those terms, except solidarity with women.

But hey, when they polled about 50 trans men and 30 trans women, they found trans men were more likely to have experienced intimate partner violence recently, so clearly this is incontrovertible evidence that we’re targeted for being men as well as being trans! This is surely generalisable to the entirety of gender politics.

[genderkoolaid]

If you read the first link, it is a Human Rights Watch report on violence against queer people assigned female, with a section going into violence against masculine-presenting people in particular and quite literally saying:

LBQ+ people interviewed for this report repeatedly named gendered discrimination against masculine gender expressions in particular as the catalyst for a lifetime of economic marginalization, discrimination and harassment at work, psychological abuse, and physical and sexual violence. Their accounts point to the need for deeper research and analysis of how masculine gender expression by LBQ+ people increases their risk of exposure to various human rights violations and abuses. Some reports on violence against LBQ+ people (explored below) have treated gender expression as a signifier of sexual orientation or gender identity, limiting knowledge production on how presentations of masculinity are themselves policed and violated.

They even call for specifically including "gender expression" into anti-discrimination laws specifically so that violence done against to people for presenting as masculine can be more recognized and dealt with. & if "you can't use a word that implies that masculinity in any way is a part of your oppression!" isn't "limiting knowledge production on how presentations of masculinity are themselves policed and violated," what is?

That's the Human Rights Watch saying that, to remind you, not just "fucking kids" online.

Additionally, no one is saying we shouldn't use transphobia, and people who talk about transandrophobia frequently discuss oppositional sexism by name! I would even go as far as to say that we really love that concept, and it's extremely valuable in talking about how patriarchy (and transandrophobia) functions. In fact, I first heard of the term from people who talk about transandrophobia discussing Serano's work.

While this particular study was rather small, it is only adding to existing data. The U.S Transgender Survey—the largest survey of trans people in the United States—while not collecting data about IPV in general, did find that trans men had the second highest rates of sexual assault at 51%, behind nonbinary people with female on their birth certificate at 58%, with transgender women at 37%.

The USTS 2015 also found that:

Trans men experienced the highest lifetime suicide rate (45%)

Trans men experienced the highest rate of having a negative experience while seeking medical care (42%)

Trans men experienced the highest rate of avoiding seeing a doctor when needed due to fear of mistreatment (31%)

Trans men had the second highest rate (behind nonbinary people AFAB) of being denied coverage for hormones (32% and 36%)

Trans men experienced the highest rate of avoiding public bathrooms due to fear of problems or confrontations (75%)

Were the second most likely (behind nonbinary people, regardless of AGAB) to never or only sometimes be treated with respect when interacting with an officer who knew or thought they were transgender

And the 2022 report they published on Health & Well-being found that:

Trans men were the most likely to avoid care due to mistreatment concerns (32%)

Trans men had the second greatest proportions (behind nonbinary people AFAB) of negative experiences with healthcare providers (53% and 55%)

None of this is meant to imply that trans women are not profoundly oppressed, or that the forms of oppression are shared. The goal is not competition. This data illustrates that clearly, there are ways in which trans men are especially affected by things even amongst other trans people. And it makes sense to talk about what that means and how that looks in practice. And necessarily that conversation will involve manhood because it really makes no sense to try to separate transness from the particular expression it has in individual people. Trans men are trans because they are men, and men because they are trans.

I only ever emphasize trans men being more affected by an issue than trans women as a response to others constantly insisting that this never happens and that trans women are categorically more oppressed than trans men every meaningful way. Transandrophobia has always been intended as a response to oppression olympics, and I have consistently seen people who use the term actively try to avoid recreating that perspective. Not always successfully, but overwhelming there is a strongly held belief by people who discuss transandrophobia that all trans people are equally oppressed and that transphobia can only be combated through all of us having an equal voice. And people lie about this constantly, the arguments against the term look much weaker when they aren't fighting strawmen.

It's crucial to understand that there is a severe misunderstanding widespread on Tumblr about what exactly "transandrophobia truthers" believe, and it actually stems directly from oppositional sexism.

People believe that trans men are less oppressed than trans women, are a less acceptable target of transphobic & misogynistic violence than them, they believe that if trans women frequently experience a form of violence that means trans men can't, and even that trans men oppress trans women. And so they also think that, since transandrophobia is the "opposite" of transmisogyny, that people who discuss transandrophobia must think all those things about trans women. And while some people, generally out of pain and frustration (which trans women also experience, no one has to be the villain here), can lean into that, overwhelmingly that is a terribly inaccurate understanding of what is actually being discussed.

I'd also recommend to talk to some trans women involved in this discussion. Particularly shout out to @velvetvexations and @transfemme-shelterdog, both of whom have faced a lot of vile transmisogynistic harassment because they talk about transandrophobia. There is a lot to be said about how understanding queerphobic anti-masculinity helps broaden and deepen one's understanding of anti-transfeminine violence, but I will leave that conversation up to transfems assigned male for right now, as I think it is more persuasive to hear from them.

Funny enough, I quite literally just finished writing a paper on this topic (specifically anti-transmasculine violence as a global phenomenon) a few days ago. So you caught me at a great moment! And I didn't even get to cite the individual examples of anti-transmasculine violence I've collected in this archive, which you may also find compelling (it also includes further links to research & writing on the topic). I'll also tag this with my tags for collecting instances transandrophobia so you can scroll through those.

And if you haven't heard of the horrific acts of forced labor and sexual violence done to immigrant trans men at the New Orleans ICE facility, I suggest you consider checking it out if you are in a headspace to do so. It is a very direct example of the convergence of both misogyny and violence against masculine presenting queer people.