Mantis on an Orange Blossom

[tobiasdrake]

Just got back from Supergirl and I have mixed feelings. Honestly, I feel about the same way I felt after The Marvels.

Milly Alcock knocks it out of the park as the cynical and damaged Kara Zor-el. Her performance as well as her onscreen chemistry with costar Eve Ridley as Ruthye Marye Knoll carry a great deal of the film.

The film functions as something of an origin story for Kara. Her backstory, where she came from, is fleshed out in flashbacks while the rest of the film acts as her journey from being Kara Zor-el, wandering Kryptonian drunkard, to embracing the identity of Supergirl.

With Ruthye serving as the vehicle by which Kara makes undertakes that journey. Much of the film is focused on their burgeoning... not friendship, exactly, but rather their developing relationship as Hero and Rescuee.

That sounds weird but it's what the film is going for with Kara's journey. Kara has all the power in the universe but little motivation to use it responsibly until Ruthye, a teenage girl on a revenge quest against the man who murdered her family, becomes her reason to figure out how to behave heroically.

Like Superman (2025), the film also doesn't shy away from bringing about serious real-world issues into it, either. The central conflict has some pretty heavy stakes to it.

And yet, throughout the film, it's hard to escape from the overwhelming feeling of, "Wait, is this it? Is this really the only conflict the film has for Kara?"

The protagonist of this movie is an invulnerable god-being with infinite power who can punch planets in half and laser warships to death and jet across the universe in a day, and the only villains the film can muster to fight her are a group of bandits with axes.

At no point does it ever feel like Kara should be having a hard time with any of these guys, and the film is forced to resort to just pushing her from one nerf to the next to keep her from just erasing all of these guys in seconds.

This is the film's weak point. Kara has a great actress, a great costar, brilliant chemistry and personal drama, and the film offers nothing interesting for a character as powerful as her to actually do. They just keep tying her hands behind her back so they can act like repeatedly fighting hordes of Mad Max raider dudes is Supergirl-level action.

Much like how Captain Marvel is the most powerful hero in the Marvel universe and cursed to only ever fight low-level soldier guys and occasionally a high-ranking soldier guy, Kara has all the power of Superman and is fighting the equivalent of Two-Face and his tommy gun mafiosos, while the film keeps begging its audience to pretend like these guys are a serious threat to her.

So the whole thing just ends up kinda mid. It feels like a Monster-of-the-Week episode from a TV show. And for something that's trying to tell a serious dramatic story of how she became Supergirl, that just doesn't feel like the right vibe to strike.

[discar]

There are a few things I would have changed, but I think the big one would be to emphasize the danger of the bad guys. There's one scene where Krem casually catches a tank. They should have leaned into that more. I think if in the final battle, Kara comes in fully powered-up, and then it turns out that she's facing a hundred-odd guys who actually can survive getting punched across the horizon, it would feel more epic. Instead of just... yeah, she's stumbling from one nerf to the next (the green sun was the worst; just use more kryptonite, dude).

It would also help if, instead of being random marauders, they emphasized that this is an entire species and civilization, marauding around because they have to kidnap women for their life cycle. Really go into how Kara isn't fighting just some gang, but something powerful.

[tobiasdrake]

I was kinda hoping we'd find out that the brigands were working for some big, powerful super-boss who could fight Kara on her level. That's really all it needed: Just one guy who can actually go toe-to-toe with a Kryptonian in a straight fight.

Or if they found some reason for what Kara wants and what Lobo wants to put them at odds with each other, so that Kara and Lobo end up having to throw down. Just. Something in the third act that actually pushes Kara up against an opponent that can seriously fight her, like Superman had in his movie with Ultraman.

As it was, it just felt like we hit the third act and, because the movie was finally ready to end, they ran out of excuses for why Kara can't just cut loose and waste all these losers in seconds. So then. She did that. The end.

[mousathe14]

I’m sorry maybe I’m just weird but I wasn’t thinking about Kara’s peril and how much of a challenge the bad guys could or could not pose for her? Yeah they had to go out of her way to nerf her often but isn’t the thing we should’ve been keyed on is how much of a risk this all is for Ruthye? Like she’s the one we have to watch for and as we saw with the family on that one planet, if Kara’s attention is diverted for too long that there will be people she can’t save.

Like yeah, of course Kara’s gonna win the fight against the big powerful threat but I figured what mattered was will that victory be clean.

[tobiasdrake]

The thing is that you can do both?

Like.

Superman (2025) had a major point of tension revolve around whether or not Superman would be able to save the people of Jarhanpur.

But it also had a guy who can absolutely beat Superman to death in a straight fight and a scene where Superman almost gets sucked into a black hole.

[orange-blossom-studios]

I'm surprised they didn't go with the old Supergirl comic book standard (i.e. Kryptonite copy). A lot of comic runs will have Supergirl get exposed to red or black Kryptonite which will cause an "evil" version of Supergirl to emerge that represents her worst impulses and fears. Having Supergirl defeat "Satan Girl (yes that's usually what she calls herself)" is a pretty easy way of representing character growth and providing a physical threat for Kara to fight.

[notatzimisce]

I will never shy away from the word goon. goon is the only way to describe a particular type of henchman, lackey, or thug. look at these guys. they're goons.

[orange-blossom-studios]

It's great to see Silver Age goons getting work in the modern day!

[rebel-ahsoka]

STAR WARS REBELS 2.06, Brothers of the Broken Horn

[blue-sunshine-mauve-morning]

Okay but I can never think about this too deeply because like most throwaway storylines in Star Wars it is above and beyond insane when you dig into it because the tragedy is utterly compounding.

The thing is - Hondo and Obi-Wan weren’t friends. They were platonic nemesis. Amusing opposites in terms of character, morality and generally speaking of the Law.

But they could have been friends. They knew each other through some harrowing self-induced shenanigans. Got to know and perhaps appreciate each other’s sense of humor. Admired each others wily cunning. Had an understanding, I think you would call it.

And Hondo was probably fond of Obi-Wan in the way you are almost compelled to be fond of someone who amicably thwarts your villainous deeds but never quite so well as to actually arrest you for them. That practically makes him an enabler, really, in a pirates point of view.

So this guy, right, this funny, tricky Jedi, it’s sort of a good day whenever you run into him, even if he’s always peskily getting in the way of your grand schemes and quest for riches. Whatever, he’s a damn fine drinking partner regardless!

Those are good times, all told. Good times.

And then one day you find out he’s dead. You find out that he was murdered. That every single one of his people, who, in your experience, are pretty similar under the surface ( they never give you too hard a time, after all. Good sports, and all that) has been murdered.

You liked him. You liked rather more than a few of them, actually.

You’re not sure if the two of you were ever actually friends.

(Surely you were, right?)

(You could have been.)

(There is no one left alive to ask.)

And it’s not - not this huge deal, right? I mean really, you barely knew the guy. Barely knew the funny young knight that was with him, or the spunky little padawan, or those brave and dastardly younglings.

But you just… think about that, sometimes. About them.

And you wonder.

The Law says they were all traitors. The government says they were corrupt. Says they bewitched people. Says they stole children and coveted power.

Hondo Ohnaka is a pirate. He’s never been on the right side of the law, or the government.

(Turns out we were both outlaws, eh?)

(So they say. So they say. I doubt it’s true.)

There is no one left alive to ask for the truth.

Whatever they were then, is whatever Hondo decides they were. There’s no one left alive to correct him.

So they were friends, he decides.

(We were friends, weren’t we? )

He just… would like to be able to have said they were. In the end.

(The Jedi still had friends in the galaxy. They did. They do.)

[tobiasdrake]

The thing about Liu Kang is, I honestly find him to be a really interesting character as originally conceived, but I feel like the idea of Liu has been lost over time.

Liu Kang as originally conceived is something of a more heroic Son Goku archetype. Liu Kang is a master martial artist who's dedicated himself to his craft with every day of his life. He grew up in a monastery training to one day represent his realm in the Mortal Kombat tournament, and the knowledge that this would be his path has defined every moment of his existence.

As Champion of Mortal Kombat, he is the most skilled fighter in the realms. Through skill, discipline, and decades of training, he's become so talented that he can outfight gods, demons, sorcerers, and whatever else the multiverse can throw at him.

But he's also a pacifist. As a Shaolin monk, Liu Kang holds a deep reverence for life in his heart. In a franchise notable for its brutal violence, Liu Kang is notable for his sense of mercy.

-> He defeated Goro in the Mortal Kombat tournament, then spared his life. -> He defeated Shang Tsung in the Mortal Kombat tournament, then spared his life. -> He defeated Kintaro in the Outworld Tournament, then spared his life. -> He defeated Shao Kahn in the Outworld Tournament, then spared his life. -> He defeated Shao Kahn again in the invasion of Earthrealm, then spared his life. -> He defeated Shinnok, then... Well, Shinnok's a god and was returned to the Netherrealm so it's a little different. But still.

He didn't even have a real Fatality in the first game, but rather a bloodless finisher. Liu Kang was the first character ever to have a Heroic Brutality.

Liu Kang is the strongest fighter of them all, and he reveres life absolutely with religious fervor.

As Mortal Kombat's central hero, this is what makes him distinct. And it is that contradiction, that juxtaposition of a man like this as Mortal Kombat's central hero that makes Liu Kang an interesting character. It's the fact that a man like this can walk through this dark and cynical world of murderers and soul-rippers without being consumed by it, holding true to his values and defending life in all its forms.

Liu Kang is such an interesting hero, y'all. He's Avatar Aang in Game of Thrones.

But it feels like modern Mortal Kombat has kinda ruined him. Like. It feels like modern MK has missed the point in their attempts to revise him to make him "more interesting".

-> He should kill people. This is Mortal Kombat. Everyone kills everyone here. Why would there ever be a character who doesn't kill people? -> And he should only be a good fighter, not the best fighter. Definitely not on the level of people like Shao Kahn or Shinnok. Just a mid-tier good fighter guy. -> Also, a mid-tier good fighter guy who kills people is a boring protagonist. He shouldn't be the protagonist. He should just support the real protagonists and stuff. -> Or we'll make him a god! If he's a god, then we can justify him nuking all the villains with his infinite god powers!

And I just.

Like.

Yeah.

Of course he's a boring protagonist if you strip out the elements that make him interesting. If he's not a pacifist and he can't outpunch gods and he's not the hero and he ultimately loses, yeah, what little remains of him makes for a pretty boring side character.

But that's not a problem of Liu Kang being uninteresting.

That's just sabotage.

[orange-blossom-studios]

It's funny because, as bad as the animated show was, it did add a cool trait to his character that I wish got explored in the games. He was technically ageless because he was champion of Mortal Kombat and therefore can't age until the next official tournament. However, since Shao Khan wasn't calling for another tournament in the animated series, he might be the champion forever. So, he had to come to terms with the idea that all his Earth Realm friends would die before him. Like almost everything in the animated series it wasn't handled well. The series mostly made it about how Liu Kang is interested in Kitana because she was one of the few people who wouldn't die in just a few decades.

I think there is a bit of character drama out of the idea that he's so good at winning at Mortal Kombat that it protects the Earth Realm forever, but it also would grant him an agelessness that would alienate him from everyone on Earth Realm.

[orange-blossom-studios]

Brooklyn Nine Nine Thoughts: The Tagger

This is going to be kind of a ramble:

Brooklyn Nine-Nine was one of those shows my family used to watch sometimes when we were having dinner. If there was nothing else on and it was late we could usually find reruns playing. It's basically a work comedy sitcom with the spin that the office is the NYPD. I would rate it has a hit-or-miss type of comedy. The jokes could sometimes make me chuckle while some jokes just didn't land at all leaving a silence.

So, I was doing something mindless at work and decided to watch one of the first episodes to see how it holds up. If you don't count the pilot, the episode titled "The Tagger" is the first episode. A lot of tv shows retool themselves after the first season. Character dynamics need to be fleshed out, and actors need to figure out their character tics. However, a lot of the big dynamics that will remain for the rest of the show appear here.

Capt. Raymond Holt is the new captain of the force. His gimmick is being hilariously deadpan while also all about doing things by the book. He's old fashion, black, gay, and has high expectation. This creates conflict with Jake Peralta whose an officer with a love of popular culture, father issues, and white. Holt over the course of the series mentors and becomes a father figure for Jake. The episode basically starts establishing that dynamic very quickly. Holt demands that Jake conforms to standards, comes with him on a stakeout to "babysit" him, and backs him up during the final arrest of the episode even when it might put their jobs in peril.

This does lead me to the central dilemma of the episode. Holt tells Jake to solve a graffiti case. Someone is tagging police cars by drawing dicks on them. The twist is that the kid doing it is the son of the police commissioner. Jake and Holt perform a stakeout and catch him spray painting on their car so it's basically open and shut. But Jake's afraid to go forward because the commissioner might ruin his job prospects in retaliation. Holt tells Jake to make the call and then when Jake decides to arrest the kid, Holt supports him showing him as the supportive father figure Jake never had. It's a pretty good scene and a dynamic that will be expanded on for the rest of the series.

However, I feel like this case is kind of a microcosm of how the series deals with police issues. The show occasionally acknowledged the fact that all of their main characters were cops and tried for some commentary in the later seasons on police profiling, corruption, and sexism. It was really only ankle deep and never really said much about alternative ways to reduce crime outside of the police for the majority of its run. The show doesn't hide the fact that the commissioner wants them to drop the case. He walks into the office and says to let his son go. There's no ambiguity.

But there is something funny about the difference between how the writers want me to feel versus how I actually feel now. See, I don't really see the graffiti itself as a big deal. The kid was only tagging police cars with dicks. The show tries to make it a big deal by having Jake say that the kid action will result in thousands in cleaning costs

But, I know that the NYPD had a budget of over 4,600,000,000 per year when the episode aired in 2013.

And now the budget is even higher

NYPD budget overview and federal funding | Committee on Public Safety | New York City Council | March 11, 2025 | citymeetings.nyc

A segment from the 9 hr 53 min New York City Council Committee on Public Safety session on March 11, 2025 titled "NYPD budget overview

It's hard to make me think: "man I hope Jake does the right thing and arrests that kid for an issue that caused no injury, will be fixed in a week, and probably cost so little that it will be marked etc. in the budget." The episode brings up much bigger issues like why is the son tagging cars? Why is there so little accountability that the commissioner can threaten people's jobs openly? Why do the police need so many expensive cars that it requires thousands of dollars to get paint off them? It's one of the issues of having a cop show try to tackle cop "problems". The show can't be as open as other workplace shows. The Office could very clearly state "hey what we do here is boring, stupid, and not helping anyone. Our bosses are some combination of stupid, corrupt, or weird." The early seasons of Brooklyn Nine-Nine despite having some good character work, couldn't go that far. Even in the later season which did try to tackle more social issues associated with the police, like having Lt. CDS. Terry Jeffords (played by the fun Terry Crew) out of uniform be profiled by another office for being black in a rich area, the show was never really prepared to offer in alternative than just "we need better and less racist cops." Holt offers to support Terry while he makes a formal complaint. But the show doesn't really offer an answer to the big questions about police profiling.

It kind of makes me wish that the show was just a regular office comedy at times. Watching this episode again, makes me realize that I like most of these characters, but that them being cops doesn't really help the office shenanigans nor the social commentary. Having the main characters not be cops but finding out that the police commissioner is letting his son get away with crimes is scary. It's even scarier when the commissioner threats you and you're not cops. Getting profiled by cops is dehumanizing and it probably would be more impactful if the characters could talk about why cops do that without it being awkward for the main characters.

[tobiasdrake]

Random thought:

Tenshinhan was still in training to become an assassin when we met him. Though he longed to follow in Taopaipai's footsteps, it's unclear to what extent he'd actually practiced assassination if any.

Yamcha was actively engaged in desert banditry. He robbed people at gunpoint and had no reservations about beating a child to death with his bare hands or firing an RPG at a vehicle.

...

Yamcha might have a bigger bodycount than Tenshinhan.

[orange-blossom-studios]

*Sometime during their shared training journey after King Piccolo's defeat*

Yamcha turns over to face Tien "hey man I know we've both done a lot of really bad stuff, but I feel like my life is really turning around. Getting to meet Krillin and Goku helped me grow a lot. But I know it's a rough road so if you ever need to talk about it let me know."

Tien turns back "thanks man, I really appreciate that. I've walked a pretty dark path and have a lot of things I regret. But I think I'm finally walking a better path." Tien reflects on breaking Yamcha's leg, beating up Nam in the tournament, having Chiaotzu rig the match order, and all the terrible stuff he said to Master Roshi.

Yamcha nods silently thinking about the time he ripped apart a guard caravan with his bare hands and left their bodies bleeding out on the dessert sand while he looted their possessions.

[tobiasdrake]

Pop culture of greek gods is always like

Pop Culture: Athena is the good one. She's virtuous and merciful and considerate of mortals. She'll have your back and get you through the difficult quest you're on, and she's the only Olympian who's never hurt anyone and means no ill will!

"What about Arachne?"

Pop Culture: We don't talk about Arachne!

[tobiasdrake]

Honestly, the existence of Arachne's myth makes me genuinely wonder how much absolute bullshit Athena got up to in other legends that just didn't survive the test of time.

[orange-blossom-studios]

Athena might be the goddess of Wisdom, but only Hestia was smart enough to burn every single story involving her just in case.

[tobiasdrake]

The problem with coming back from Isekai is the main character has for the first time in their life made friends, found a community, a new home, place to belong, sense of purpose and true happiness. And then it gets yanked away for the obligatory “dreams are bad” moral.

It’s the same reason most genderswap series don’t have the main character turn back at the end. Because with that ending what’s the point of everything that happened previously?

Well, with isekai where the character comes back, they're usually not portrayed as being a miserable person who has no one they love or care about. They're usually just plucked from an ordinary life for a 50-episode fantasy vacation where they learn valuable lessons about themselves that they can take home with them.

An interesting example I've been thinking about ever since the isekai discussion started is raunchy internet comedy series The Legend of Neil.

Neil is... Well, it's stupid. I can't really call it a "recommended watch" because it has a very particular brand of Dudebro Comedy. Felicia Day plays a feral sex-hungry faerie who heals Link by fucking him. Multiple references are made to moblins having three penises and a rape instinct. Neil first gets absorbed into the game by wanking while asphyxiating himself with the Nintendo controller. There's a lot of that.

The gay guy gets to live happily ever after and it's explicitly stated in the ending that gay marriage has been legalized. Also Zelda's black. So that's pretty neat.

But very much a dudebro raunchy sex comedy.

The show was released in 2008, about four years before Sword Art Online changed the framework of isekai anime. So it stands as an interesting artifact of that transitional period.

In the show, Neil gets Isekai'd into the original The Legend of Zelda NES video game where he takes on the role of Link and has to save Zelda from Ganon. For the first two seasons, Neil is frustrated and bitter.

He doesn't want to be here and he doesn't know why this should be his problem to solve, but he reluctantly goes through with it because Ganon's minions are trying to kill him and there's nothing else he can do. He repeatedly utters the phrase, "Fuck this quest."

Over the course of the series, we learn more about Neil's life back home. He's the runt of a comically over-the-top abusive family. He has a dead-end job working at a gas station his brother manages, and his girlfriend is openly fucking his brother because the brother has more ambition than Neil does.

The girlfriend is, of course, depicted as a one-dimensional Bitchy Shrew because that's the kind of show this is.

At the end of season two, Neil's adventure is cut short when Ganon is able to return him to his world. He finally gets what he wants and goes home to his miserable life for the season three premiere. But after getting it all back and realizing how miserable he was in his old life, Neil decides to return to Hyrule with a resolved utterance of, "Fuck this life."

So Neil re-Isekais himself into the video game, embraces the role of Link with renewed vigor, defeats Ganon, saves Zelda, and then marries her and becomes King of Hyrule, living happily ever after. Minus a gag sequel hook ending.

For its place in history, the show stands as a subversion on what was then the traditional Isekai structure: Go on adventure, learn valuable lessons, then come home a better and more mature person for all the experiences you had over there.

Though it's not quite as meaningful today, as the idea of "Fuck this life" has long since just become the Isekai standard.

[orange-blossom-studios]

I wonder how much of the shift also relates to the evolution of the "isekai world" itself.

There is never a perfect demarcation because literature evolves and genres develop organically from different writers. However, it is notable that in a lot of classical "isekai" being sent or having to go to another world was often a dangerous event but also supposed to be temporary. For some of them, it was even a survival situation.

Labyrinth (1986) is a good western example of "another world" being a temporary and consistently difficult situation. The main character is only going through the titular Labyrinth because she wants to save her baby brother. She does grow closer to some of the inhabitants of the world, but the world never stops being terrifying, unfamiliar, and uncomfortable. She's not there to live on the other world, she's on a quest and will leave as soon as it is done. Her reward for her courage is character growth, saving her brother, and she still gets to see her friends but in a safer context.

Looking at "classic" isekai anime like Escaflowne also show the same scenario. Gaea is in the middle of a growing war that threatens everyone's safety. Hitomi is constantly being pursued for her powers and never really feels "at home" on Gaea compared to Earth despite the feelings she develops for Van. When the war is over, she chooses to return to her friends and family on Earth because that's where she feels more at home.

However, if you compare that to modern Isekai, the fundamental role of the world has changed. It's not a scary/terrifying vehicle to create obstacles for the protagonist. It's their home either because they find a new family there or because they were reincarnated their.

Overlord and Reincarnated as a Slime both emphasize the character having a safe "home" on the new world with people that support them unconditionally. They have enemies, but they aren't beyond the scope of the heroes nor their understanding.

Beyond those, there are also the plethora of "farming" and "slow-life" isekai worlds. In these scenarios, the main character doesn't have to worry about external threats either because the world is relatively safe (for them) or because they are for some reason strong enough to handle most threats. In these worlds, the main character feels less stressed than they did in their own world. The mundane challenges of life like work and socialization are removed.

The isekai world in some modern stories has shifted from a method of creating challenges for the protagonist to overcome into a method of facilitating slice of life or power fantasy elements.

[tobiasdrake]

When I become a Star Wars character, I'm going to make sure my first appearance clearly shows me being killed at the end of the film at the ripe old age of 97.

That way all of my subsequent appearances have to be prequels where, no matter what shit I pull, I'm guaranteed to always ride off into the sunset cackling "Can't kill me! I DIE IN A DIFFERENT MOVIE!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

[orange-blossom-studios]

It's all fun and immortal games until you realize that you're a clone of the original 97 character. Make sure to check your full name for any numbers, weird apostrophes, or if someone else shares your last name.

[tobiasdrake]

Pitch: Harem anime that ends with the protagonist calling everyone together because he's finally made a decision and he needs them all to hear it.

The girls all gather together and the protagonist comes forward and delivers the news: Spending all this time with all these amazing women has helped her to realize she's trans. Everyone cheers and welcomes their new sister.

There is no canon romance.

[epicscizor]

.. no.. no yuri? :(

[tobiasdrake]

Oh, the harem dynamic continues unabated. It just doesn't get resolved onscreen.

[thebibliomancer]

In a way I can’t explain, this feels like the natural evolution of the genre

[thacobell-blog]

Wait, isn't this just what harem anime already is?

[epicscizor]

Aside from one very obvious one, having the main character transition is uncommon

(but yeah not "resolving" the love icosahedron is very much standard fare)

[orange-blossom-studios]

That's why I propose a new rule: If a harem situation isn't settled or dramatically shifted after 2 full seasons of will-they-won't they, the main character through character development must discover something exciting about themselves that they have to reveal to the other members of the harem (they are trans, they are on the ace spectrum, they are polyamorous, etc. ) or the anime must transition to a new genre at random (mech fighter, monster taming, period drama, musical, etc. ).

[tobiasdrake]

Pitch: Harem anime that ends with the protagonist calling everyone together because he's finally made a decision and he needs them all to hear it.

The girls all gather together and the protagonist comes forward and delivers the news: Spending all this time with all these amazing women has helped her to realize she's trans. Everyone cheers and welcomes their new sister.

There is no canon romance.

[epicscizor]

.. no.. no yuri? :(

[tobiasdrake]

Oh, the harem dynamic continues unabated. It just doesn't get resolved onscreen.

[orange-blossom-studios]

[demilypyro]

she's chuuni and she eats people

[tobiasdrake]

I think people learned the wrong lessons from Women in Refrigerators conversations.

Like. Thinking about a recent death in Daredevil: Born Again and the fridging discourse that emerged from it, I find myself thinking back to Amazing Spider-Man 2.

And Avengers: Endgame.

And. Like.

Since the 2010s I feel like sometimes creatives will now do this thing where they bump off a female character so all the men can be sad and react to her death.

But they try to couch it in reassurances. Gwen and Natasha falling to their deaths shouting at the screen, "It's not a fridging! I chose to die! It's all my fault! I wanted it like this! I CHOSE TO DIIIIIIE!!!"

And then a proud creative pointing at it going, "See? See? It's not a fridging! I'm a good creative who knows not to fridge women."

And. Like.

No.

The problem wasn't that the female character didn't have enough agency in it.

The problem is that you keep killing all your women in nearly identical ways so that your men can have nearly identical feelings to feel.

That's what people were upset about.

[maria-writes-things]

Even though I think you're right overall, I never saw Natasha's death as a problem. The scene itself is definitely solid (well, at least the best scene in the movie from my position), because it displays Hawkeye's (I forgot his name) and Natasha's relationship more than anything. The fact that someone would die there was reasonably well established (even if not guaranteed) so I don't see her gender playing any part in the decision-making here. Her character arc was about finished as well.

That being said, I do agree that later writing handles Natasha a bit strangely and I don't think Hawkeye's death wouldn't have affected the narrative as much. Natasha would still be affected (mirroring Hawkeye) and such, but characters tend to dwell on her death a lot without really... doing anything with it.

This, I think, could be the follow-through of fridging, even without its beginning. Considering how disorganised MCU writing has been, I would even go so far as to claim that its not possible to assign any single authorial intent to multi-film events (except maybe the big saga stuff, if we're lucky).

[tobiasdrake]

The issue is that Vormir, broadly, is literally just a fridge. That's all it is. It's a plot point that serves no function beyond killing women. A place the characters can go to exchange their women for plot coupons.

Thanos killed Gamora with an axe to advance the plot, so in order to counter him, the Avengers must now kill Natasha with an axe. Because the arbitrary Plot Gate will only open at an exchange rate of "Insert Woman -> Receive Admission".

Keep in mind that in Infinity War, Captain America made a very specific point about how trading lives is not the way we're going to win this conflict. He refused to allow Vision to sacrifice himself, insisting on finding a better way.

Endgame no longer cares about better ways, so I guess Thanos was right and Cap was wrong; Sacrificing the people we love is the key to victory? That's the takeaway?

Hands have been wrung about how Natasha is different from Gamora because she chose to sacrifice herself while Gamora was sacrificed by Thanos but the net result is the same: A female character is killed off so the male characters can advance through the Woman-Killing Plot Gate.

in terms of its consequences on the story, it doesn't really matter whether Nat threw herself off or Clint threw her off. She dies the same as Gamora, and Clint nabs the same prize that Thanos did. The results are exactly the same.

If this is supposed to be a movie about heroes, if Steve's beliefs are supposed to be validated because he is the hero and his ideology represents what is good, then there should be a third option around the Gate. The Avengers should be able to find and make a better, more heroic choice.

Alternately, they could have just. Like. Not created a Plot Gate where women's lives are exchanged for plot progression once per film.

[orange-blossom-studios]

Having any of the heroes die on Vormir was a dumb idea. But, I would still like to see the alternative universe were they switched Black Widow and Iron-man's positions in the story. Like everything else is the same in the previous movies but, Tony and Clint go to the fridge planet, Tony dies, and the movie treats it the same as it did Black Widow. Then it was Black Widow who had the big final goodbye after defeating Thanos after she got to wield the gauntlet. I would love to see the follow up movies to see how an MCU would look. Would they write Clint as having the same survivor's guilt of letting Tony die? Clint had a long history with Nat; meanwhile, Tony was a good friend and work colleague not the type of person you become a back-alley sword stabber for. Like, they were friends, but not that close. Likewise, would they write Spiderman as feeling less depressed because in this universe he didn't see Tony die? Would some of the younger heroes like Kate Bishop or kamala look up to Nat?

[tobiasdrake]

Ganondorf: What. Zelda: Yeah, Link and I have been talking-- Well, I've been talking, but he's a very good listener. Not the point! Point is, we're tired. We're tired of doing these curse loopies over and over and over again forever. We think it's unfair to keep making us do this without any input from us. So! We've decided to form a labor union. Ganondorf: A labor union. Zelda: Right. We want better working conditions and compensation. Ganondorf: Aren't you literally the Forever Princess? Zelda: Yes, but Link always reincarnates into a mud hole made of sticks. Link: YAP!!! Zelda: Oh, good point. And he wants weekends off. Me, I want better safety conditions. I'm tired of being dragged away in chains. They chafe. Plus, the last time, I tripped and nearly fell down the stairs. I'm not a child. I can walk on my own. Also, if my cells could be better furnished for the duration of my captivities, that'd be great. Ganondorf: And you're telling this to me because...? Zelda: Well, we just thought you might want to join in. Right now we've got me, Link, the Sages or whatever they're called in this iteration, and also a random farm girl for some reason? I'm not sure why. Malon: I brought milk! Zelda: She brought milk. Ganondorf: Okay, but... I'm the embodiment of Demise's curse. The curse that did all this. I don't unionize. I'm pretty sure I'm the thing you're unionizing against. Zelda: Oh. Ganondorf: Yeah. Zelda: I hadn't considered that. Well, this is awkward. Ganondorf: Tell me about it. Zelda: Well... do you agree to our terms? Ganondorf: No. Zelda: Then we'll have to take labor action. Ganondorf: What kind of-- Zelda: SEVEN SAGES BANISHMENT SEAL!!! Ganondorf: DUUUWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!! Zelda: ... Link: ... Zelda: Yeah, I don't know if that worked either. We might have just set ourselves up for another round. Damn it! Malon: Want some milk? Zelda: Yes. Yes, I do. Thank you, random farm girl. Malon: Don't mention it!

[tobiasdrake]

Zelda: That, Link, is the Blood Moon. Every Friday evening, it shines in the sky and sweeps away all the monsters and dark magic from Hyrule. Then, on Monday morning, the Blood Moon returns and restores all of the creatures, including the ones that were slain the previous week. We're not really sure why, but we're grateful for the reprieve.

[orange-blossom-studios]

Ganondorf: After being banished for the thirty seventh repeat and some...militant class solidarity by the Bokoblins, I am considering this union idea.

Zelda: Ok, so we are in agreement that we will receive a break every three cycles?

Ganondorf: Acceptable. I also would like to add a clause that says that I cannot be impaled through the head more than once every ten cycles.

Link: aahahaaa, hyaaaa, ahaah!

Zelda & Ganondorf: Agreed.

Malon: I have question about motion five to evenly distribute tasks every 4 cycles. Do we have to change are outfits for our new jobs?

Zelda: I can add a clause saying that you can perform any position in any outfit you want if it helps.

Malon: Actually, I was wondering if I can wear the cape when it's my turn to be the lord of evil.

[thoughtportal]

[desfraisespartout]

This is a nice video showing an blind/invisible stitch, which is quite useful for repairing tears or finishing something (ex. cushion).

Also, that extra step for putting back the seam is really nice.

[hollowedskin]

I love Tumblr. I had to agree to see mature content before I could open this video.

But who among us doesn’t find a neat seam at least somewhat sexy?

[tobiasdrake]

Honestly, if I could revise Dragon Ball, one thing I would do is let Piccolo beat 17.

Like. This is it. This is the culmination of Piccolo's character. He's just recombined with God and attained his long-foreshadowed true power. This is his peak as a character; He has never shone as brightly as he is right now and never will again.

And what does he do at his peak? He has one fight with 17 that he loses, then gets bumped off by Cell. And that's it. Great payoff. Glad we were all here for it.

"Uh, Drake? What about his fight with Cell earlier?"

What, the one where Cell is explicitly still a weenie incapable of competing with the cast and needs to run away and hide? Yeah, he does win that.

But also, Cell is a brand new character being introduced for the first time, and not an established character who just shitstomped the Super Saiyans, and the point of this scene is that Cell is pathetic right now and can't measure up. There's no reason he needs to be Super Saiyan strong right now, nor any real indication that he is. The only yardstick he's being measured against is Piccolo and the point is that he compares unfavorably to everyone right now.

17 and 18 are the established Big Threat Menace Characters at this point in the story. And after all that hyping up of this new power for Piccolo, he fares as well against them as Vegeta did. It's super disappointing.

But the thing is?

There's no reason for 17 to win this. In fact, one might argue it actually hurts the story.

Because what happens after the fight is that Cell shows up with all his newfound power, and now we have a new problem. He's here for 17 and 18, and they can't just run away....

...

...

Uh....

...

They can't just run away...

...

...

Because?

A major plot hole in the Cell arc is why they didn't just leave. When all these characters are fighting Cell for them, why didn't they leave? Lacking ki signatures, they could only be found in the first place because Cell sensed Piccolo fighting them. At any of the myriad moments in the big spectacle brawl that ensues where Cell is presently occupied, they can just leave and he'll never find them.

They don't even have the excuse of 17 being tired out from fighting because they have infinite stamina. They can just leave at any moment.

But if Piccolo won the fight? If he actually beat some serious injuries into 17? Maybe even took on both Androids at once?

Not only does Piccolo get to put in a great showing here at the Peak of His Character, but if 17 and 18 were actually damaged from the fight, then it gives them a reason why they can't just leave.

I think that would have been better both for Piccolo and for the Twins, while also helping to establish Cell's newfound strength better too.

[jcogginsa]

I don't disagree that Piccolo should have decisively won, but I will say that saying "He fares as well against them as Vegeta did" is being very generous to Vegeta.

[tobiasdrake]

Mm, yes and no. Yes, because he was fighting the weaker Android. 18 is weaker than 17 to... some degree. How much weaker she is, the manga never really finds important enough to elaborate on. Only that she is because of... some reason.

(Read: Sexism.)

But there's one very specific reason why Vegeta lost, which Piccolo calls out during the fight.

Vegeta fights 18 evenly, neither gaining ground until Vegeta's stamina begins to give way. Vegeta tires out, but 18 never will, and so the fight ultimately turns against him in a humiliating way.

Piccolo, on the other hand, is on the same level as 17.

But like Vegeta, his stamina is fading throughout the fight while 17's stamina is infinite. Cell arrives right as Piccolo's beginning to weaken, and lose his ability to keep fighting evenly with 17.

So, had Cell not intervened right here, this would have turned into the same humiliating shitstomp that Vegeta received at 18's hands.

Piccolo is stronger here than Vegeta, but only by whatever value makes 17 stronger than 18.

And for what a huge development his recombining with God is, I feel like he deserved more than that.

[unnounblr]

Am I wrong, or was the decisive moment in 17 v. Piccolo, and the point where it ended (in the draw/loss it was) Hellzone Grenade, and 17's Barrier?

Piccolo does the cool smart move, and it did nothing to 17 because he has a shield. And then Cell shows up.

I feel like all that would need to be done is take away the barrier thingy, and have 17 be battle damaged. Maybe missing an arm or leg or eye or his nose, or hair. Have a hole in his chest; not a fatal one, but, inconvenient.

[tobiasdrake]

No, that's the halfway point. Piccolo starts fighting 17 in chapter 367, and concludes the chapter with Makūhōidan/Hellzone Grenade. This burst of power is what tips off Cell that they're fighting.

Then, in 368, 17 gets serious and goes all-out against Piccolo after having seen what he can do. They fight until Piccolo tires out, at which point Cell arrives at the very end of 368.

But I agree that rearranging things to put Makūhōidan/Hellzone Grenade in the spotlight there would be gold. Adding to the other reasons to let Piccolo win, it would also avoid that too-common Dragon Ball phenomenon of

"CHECK OUT MY LATEST TECHNIQUE!!! IT DOESN'T DO SHIT!!! Hmph. Never using that again."

[unnounblr]

...It also occurs to me that. It seems like, at least in the Trunks TV Special, if not in the manga which I don't think shows Future 17 and Future 18 as much.

Like, one of the things it seems the Future Androids do is double-team people.

Even if Piccolo is stronger than 17, who is stronger than 18. That's not a guarantee that he wouldn't have some problems against both of them simultaneously.

Like, maybe he could fight both of them to a standstill and gradually get tired, while they have unlimited stamina.

I know in most of Dragon Ball team fights don't tend to work, but. I might argue that that's actually a reason for there to be an exception.

[unnounblr]

...Actually, wait, given that I think Cell, in his introduction, already revealed he needs both 17 and 18.

Like, if 18 is the weaker of the two, is there a reason Piccolo didn't just. Kill her. Right away? Or that Piccolo didn't try to fight both of them to take them out and save things that way?

Like, I guess. The two androids are treating it like a game, because part of 17 and 18's characters is that they aren't taking things seriously.

And, Piccolo might be able to guess he can't win against both. So he's not going to suggest or instigate the 2 on 1.

But equally. If he knows that 18 is the weaker one, and if he got a decent handle on how strong she is from the Vegeta fight. Like, tactically it would make the most sense to kill her as quickly as he possibly can, to prevent Cell from finishing his plan.

[jcogginsa]

Piccolo would have no way of knowing 18 is weaker than 17, as the Androids do not have Ki for him to sense.

To go back to what you said about "Team fights don't tend to work" that's actually less true of the Z portion than it is of the Dragonball Portion. In Z, every one of the major villains except arguably Frieza were beaten by a Team effort. And Frieza's only argument for not being beaten by a team effort is that once goku goes Super Saiyan it's a different fight from the one that immeadiately preceded it.

[tobiasdrake]

Piccolo might have a way to know; Without being able to sense ki, fighting the Androids is the only way to gauge how strong they are.

But Piccolo watched Vegeta fight 18. He makes the assessment that Vegeta and 18 are evenly matched, which he can only know from gauging how the fight is going.

So he knows that 18 is roughly around Vegeta's level. As he's fighting 17 and taking his measure, he would have that knowledge that draw on.

[yuki-kazami]

I'm actually somewhat curious, do you think it could have been intentional? Maybe the answer is that /this/ is why Earth's Mightiest simply could not stand to the Android menace. With all their preparation and all their wits, they _still_ couldn't beat the Infinite Engine and the barriers that render their biggest advantage, their focused Ki techniques, irrelevant. No matter how many new forms they had, if they couldn't end it decisively, they would inevitably lose to their own mortal weaknesses.

Meanwhile, Cell as a bioandroid, while a much higher wall to climb, has the weaknesses of /being biological/ (and lacking the barrier, potentially explicitly because Cell was a side experiment that the real Gero never had the chance to keep working on), and therefore still had to deal with exhaustion and a limited Ki supply that could be overcome.

It certainly could just be reading too far into it, but it would make some sense as to why thematically even one of the biggest narrative catharsis moments in Dragon Ball, the Nameless Namekian finally Figuring His Shit Out, still was on track to lose in the same way as Vegeta. The Androids were just literally walking hard counters to the way the cast deals with problems, and without an easy outsmart that the cast would actually be willing to use (As we see with Krillin and the remote)

[tobiasdrake]

I don't think it's quite so intentional mainly because of this line.

Shortly after 18 defeats Vegeta, Toriyama made a point to have Trunks note that because of the butterfly effect, this version of 17 and 18 are vastly more powerful than the ones that killed Vegeta and the others in Trunks's timeline.

I don't.

I don't know why he felt like that was necessary.

I think just having Trunks go, "Yes, THAT is how strong they are, that's why you guys got murdered!" would both make more sense.

But the Android arc in general is a huge mess.

[yuki-kazami]

That really is such an odd thing to add, because like, Gero's bots got obliterated exactly the same time as in canon, right? There wasn't any new data they could have possibly perceived, because their data gathering stopped when Mecha Freiza got obliterated.

That legitimately makes it sound like they just got stronger for no clear reason.

And if it was another character, I could see them maybe puffing themselves up that they weren't losing to the same enemies they already had been, but Trunks just wants this to be over, he has no reason to lie to save face.

[orange-blossom-studios]

It's a weird line for sure because the story never gives an explanation for the difference.

I do think the significant change is that the dragon gang showed up to meet 19 & 20 on South Island because of Trunk's warning. This forced Gero to retreat to his lab and awaken 17 & 18 prematurely.

I've seen various ways fans have tried to extrapolate from there. The easiest is the Trunks just had bad information. He didn't know that the original androids were 19 & 20 and that 17 & 18 were awakened later after Gero tried to lower their strength in order to control them. Trunks was only a baby at the time and then got secondhand information from Bulma who wasn't there when it all happened. Another alternative theory is that the future androids were just playing with Trunks and they were just as strong as the past androids. It would make sense considering that the Androids should be able to dance around super Saiyan Gohan and Trunks.

On a writing level, I feel like Toriyama probably just wanted to raise the stakes and add some intrigue like with android 16 being unfinished. He was clearly pivoting around during this time. So, he uses this to tell the reader that things are even worse than they appear.

[tobiasdrake]

Your thoughts on DB tackling the Saiyans' genocide coming back to bite them (i.e. Baby and Granolah) made me wonder... if such a thing occurred and Bulma was "properly present" (i.e. she's not under mind control and is actually THERE to hear of Vegeta's sins), do you think she would follow your words of "Fuck Vegeta. You want revenge against the Saiyans? Vegeta's all yours. He was an active and eager participant in all of that."?

Oh, most certainly not. Bulma doesn't care about high-minded moral equivalencies. That's her husband. Fuck you if you want to settle any kind of score with him.

I should probably clarify that I meant that statement a little tongue-in-cheek, and as a comparison to Goku. Goku is fully innocent of the Saiyans' crimes, so target him for retaliation over the Saiyan genocides of various worlds is completely unfair. He has never been a participant in that, nor has he wanted to.

Targeting Goku carries the moral weight of murdering a Russian-American baker for the invasion of Ukraine. Goku has only ever been on one genocide mission, and he defected and integrated with the people he was sent to target instead. And when given the chance to rejoin the Saiyan military, told them to go fuck themselves off a bridge.

The only thing he has in common with the crimes of the Saiyans is that he shares their race.

Vegeta, on the other hand, was an active and gleeful participant in the fates of many worlds. He would still be doing that today if he hadn't been derailed by the Earthlings.

That's not to say he's the same person today as he was back then, of course. His transformation over the years has been incredible. It wouldn't be morally right in absolute terms for Vegeta to be punished for what he did decades ago, when he is no longer that man.

But it could still be justified from the perspective of one of his victims, or one of his people's victims. Targeting Vegeta for retribution carries the moral weight of Magneto hunting former Nazi officers and soldiers years after the end of WWII.

There's a sort of "Cowboy Revenge" morality to it. You could see a Noir-esque ending for Vegeta where a survivor of a race his people destroyed gets the drop on him and murders him in Trunks's bedroom, only to see Trunks standing there in the doorway and realizing he's only created a new vendetta.

...you know, if we ignore the part where Shenron would just pop Vegeta back to life afterward.

[orange-blossom-studios]

Now that Bulma has almost permanent access to Shenron, she could probably set up some queues in front of Capsule Corp. for people who want to find justice for their Vegeta destroyed people. Left side can be for people who want to kill Vegeta and the right side for people who want to restore their planet. She could even set up a gift shop at the end of the line.