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@strawberrycakelove
stubborn prince
sasuke antis will be like "well he tried to kill sakura." what was he meant to do? just stand there and let her stab him?
The question really was never that, like a fight, he could choose to simply incapacitate her to fight, instead of going for a frank assassination attempt, it's not like it was the first time he did this and he chose to do so, but that's logical, if he had any regard for her, which obviously he didn't, none at this point, and it's not like Sakura was his big issue like Naruto was (and if she was that would just be fucking toxic) . And no, I'm not saying here that Sasuke had any obligation to have any consideration for Sakura, he didn't, he didn't and it's okay with that.
The real problem here is Sakura remaining in love with a guy who didn't even have an ounce of consideration for her (like just incapacitating her instead of deciding to kill, for example).
No matter what perspective you look at their relationship, it remains problematic and toxic.
So Sakura chose to try and kill him (even when she claim she loves him), but he needs to choose to incapacitate her... Why would he have "an ounce of consideration for her" when she didn't show it for him.
She was obviously hesitating there, she wasn't that determined, and Sasuke obviously noticed that, it's not like his character is a stone without the ability to perceive other people's emotions (and in Sakura's case, he would understand why, he has known since forever that she was in love with him) or the lapses in attention of his opponents (and he among many characters is very good at taking advantage of this, he did this to Danzou of all people, it's not like Sakura is on Danzou's level hiding her emotions, which her character never did either)
And he chose to attack her to kill, he decided not to spare her.
And again, I think I'll have to reinforce here, he wasn't obligated to spare her or decide differently.
But Sakura remaining in love with a person who has no regard for her (after all, she hesitated precisely because she had that regard for him), who doesn't show that same reciprocity, is, and will always be, problematic.
The problem here again is that Sakura is able to remain in love with Sasuke, his lack of reciprocity hasn't shaken her feelings, Sakura has serious problems here. A normal, mentally healthy person would have stopped liking Sasuke here, but Sakura lacks a lot of self-love to do that.
What Sakura did here was a premeditated murder attempt. She went as far as poisoning the kunai and leaving her friends drugged and alone, exposed in foreign lands with total disregard for their safety. Then she pursued and confronted Sasuke with a petty comedy that was meant to lower his guard. She planned this with a cold mind and went through several steps to achieve it, even if she was sad and hesitated in the last moment (with a poisoned kunai in her hand pointing to Sasuke's back). She also did this based on a rumour coming from people she didn't even know, never gave Sasuke a chance to explain or tell his side of the story. She straight out went there to murder the person she supposedly loved so much to avenge someone she never met (and who was perfectly safe pursuing his music career, mind you) to avoid a political conflict between Konoha and a village she didn't even care about. That is how much Sasuke meant to her. That is how Sakura loved.
Sakura was the one that decided to not spare Sasuke for the sole reason that he was trouble for Konoha. She had the time and the safety to make a decision, and she decided to kill, to perform a summary execution for the military regime she served. Sasuke didn't even have Sakura in his head before she appeared before him to murder him, the idea of killing her hadn't ever crossed his mind. Saying that he chose to attack her is preposterous. Sasuke had to decide promptly while he was in danger. Picturing him as if he is the one in the wrong here, as if he used unnecessary force against a murderer is extremely unfair.
Sasuke did the only thing that was reasonable. Defend his life. Sakura was a soldier of the village that had put a bounty in his head, not a sad damsel in distress. And she approached him armed and with a weird act to try to fool him. Fans will set the moral bar for Sasuke in the stratosphere while other characters have it at sea level. Sasuke is demanded proportionality and kindness in the most pressing and unfair situations, and he is expected to just endure and act chill while he is subjected to the most outraging and inhumane treatment. Fans see no problem with Sakura acting like a executioner for a genocidal state, but they demand Sasuke to treat her like a perfect gentleman while she is trying to kill him.
A normal, mentally healthy and true to himself Sasuke would have never gone close to that woman ever again. That pairing makes no sense at all, in that of course we couldn't agree more.
And I don't disagree and I never disagreed with that, that's why I kept saying:
HE WAS NOT OBLIGATED TO HAVE CONSIDERATION FOR SAKURA THERE.
And when I was talking about Sakura, I was strictly restricting it to her context, I wasn't involving the context of Sasuke on her side to justify Sakura's feelings.
Analyzing strictly from Sakura's side, THERE ARE NO REAL REASONS FOR HER TO KEEP IN LOVE WITH SASUKE, she only kept in love with him, SUSTAINED BY HER PHYSICAL ATTRACTION TO HIM AND NOTHING ELSE, BECAUSE SAKURA DOESN'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO HAVE A REAL EMOTIONAL CONNECTION WITH ANYONE.
Because the same lack of emotional connection that she has with Sasuke, she has with everyone else, BECAUSE SAKURA HAS NO REAL FEELINGS, and that's why she was able to do what she did with her friends and allies and create such a cold plan against Sasuke.
What made her hesitate was DESIRE, because since Sakura is absent of any more significant feeling besides desire, she did feel desire IN THAT SITUATION, as absurd as it may seem.
AND THIS IS WHERE RECIPROCITY COMES IN, as much as you may find it distorted.
Because Sasuke doesn't feel ANYTHING LIKE Sakura and didn't have ANY DESIRE FOR HER SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO HESITATE and values concrete emotional connections (after all, he wasn't in that state of emotional suffering for nothing).
They are not on an equal footing, so this relationship makes no sense at all from either side, and from any perspective.
If he were cold and emotionally disconnected like Sakura NATURALLY IS, I wouldn't even find their relationship questionable, because it would be a relationship between equals.
EMOTIONALLY EVERYTHING IS SUPERFICIAL IN SAKURA, but since she has never experienced any emotion deeper or more intense than DESIRE, she faithfully believes that this is a REASON DEEP ENOUGH to continue to be in love with Sasuke, WHICH FOR A NORMAL PERSON IT IS NOT.
That's why I said, that she has no real reasons to love Sasuke, from any point of view, it's just desire and obsession and nothing else.
They are not equals, and she has no real emotional connection.
And Sasuke is very mentally fu**** up, because he ended up with her KNOWING THIS I didn't set extra-spherical moral standards for Sasuke, I said how naturally fu**** up Sakura is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I elaborate on this, either Sasuke became more like Sakura by the end of the process (which is not good) or he is emotionally destroyed (which is equally bad).
His ending with Sakura is bad either way.
But Sakura has always been who she is, and she has always been at rock bottom.
sasuke must have numbed himself so much to get through those years with orochimaru. it's just occurred to me. like, i get that he is not stupid and that he knows orochimaru wants to use him, and that he eventually takes the upper hand and yet. living with someone that is older/more powerful than you and having to constantly be on your toes when you're a kid/growing up? i know what that feels like and it fucking sucks. having to push through it because it's the only way you can get out the other side and not be a victim, while still being a victim of something else? even if they are ninjas and sasuke is strong, he's still a kid who has literally no one in the world. on a mental health level, that must have been horrible. since the moment he defected from konoha, sasuke has no place where he feels safe. he has no place he can call home, no place where he can rest emotionally. no one who is looking out for him (ofc we have naruto but he's a kid too so the layers are different), no one he can go to. that's the worst kind of loneliness. and he was a kid. that shit takes years to recover from. rebuilding your system so that you accept safety around you. you welcome it. you lower your guard. aaaaa
“The cell saga is bad because the z fighters were idiots the entire time”
that’s the POINT
THE CELL SAGA IS ABOUT ARROGANCE
EVERYONE IS BEING STUPID BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY KNOW WHATS GONNA HAPPEN
THEY THINK THEYRE AHEAD OF THE CURVE
BUT THEY AREN’T
THIS IS LITERALLY SHOWCASED MULTIPLE TIMES THROUGHOUT THE SAGA
IT STARTS WITH TRUNKS AND BUILDS FROM THERE
GOHAN LITERALLY LETS CELL LIVE BECAUSE OF HIS ARROGANCE
THE ONLY REASON CELL IS DEFEATED IS BECAUSE GOKU, GOHAN, AND VEGETA ALL LET GO OF THEIR ARROGANCE AND PRIDE AND FIGHT TOGETHER
GOKU STEPS IN TO HELP GOHAN, WHICH HE DIDNT DO BEFORE BECAUSE HE THOUGHT GOHAN COULD DO IT HIMSELF
VEGETA HELPS GOHAN AND LANDS THE PENULTIMATE BLOW ON CELL, DESPITE WANTING TO BE THE ONE TO END CELL HIMSELF
GOHAN FINALLY FINISHES HIM LIKE HE REFUSED TO DO BEFORE
THEY ALL LET GO OF THEIR ARROGANCE AND FINISH THE JOB
THATS THE THEMATIC POINT OF THE SAGA
RAHHHHHHH🦅🦅
The contrast between Naruto's 'what is Sasuke thinking' and Suigetsu's 'I'm starting to get in your head, Sasuke' is insane
Talent! Some people are more talented at reading people than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean they care about Sasuke to the same extent that they have the ability to read people. Karin was also very good at understanding people (without necessarily caring about it) and Naruto wasn't necessarily good at it. Naruto projected things much more than he actually understood anything. In real life, Naruto's talk no jutsu would have very little effectiveness.
A pattern that I've seen in the Naruto fandom over the years, is that everyone wants their "favorite character" to be Sasuke.
What I mean by this is that when you see a rewrite of a minor character like Sakura, Neji, or anyone of the other konoha 11, its usually something along the lines of " oooh what if they left the village and got back at all the people that hurt them and joined the Akatsuki!!!"
You mean Sasuke? Why not just talk about Sasuke? Clearly you don't like your fave that much If their traits are so interchangable to you, and those traits also very clearly belong to Sasuke. So why not just discuss Sasuke instead?
One reason i can find for this, is that people Interpret Sasuke as slightly arrogant since we're percieving the story from Naruto's side, who sees everything Sasuke does as arrogant, because he didn't understand him and his goals for a large part of the story. But its also up to the reader to see things like these? Tbh i just don't get it. People hate Sasuke, but want all of their faves to be sasuke.
It's because not everyone has the nerve to write their favorite character (Sakura, Hinata, Ino, Shikamaru, Naruto, Rock Lee etc) as an Uchiha and give him all the coolest powers that one could want their Favorite Character/O.C. to have in the Naruto universe, and putting him in Akatsuki is just because Akatsuki is aesthetic, the design is really cool, the story isn't that important (because most of these fanfics, to tell the truth, are pretty bad and the stories are horrible LOL)
anyone else thinks Rin is a bit idolized in canon and fanon?
always the perfect good girl or a girlboss
people, give me a girl failure
Rin is almost as fucked up on the head as Kakashi and Obito, she went through hell in war, and in AUs where she survives, she goes through hell with the jinchuriki thing and Obito’s death
c'mon give her some unhealthy coping mechanisms, make her jaded, tired of the world's bullshit, make her a total cynic, dissimulated, selfish, morally gray, relatable!
If I were to write an AU with Rin alive, I would write an ordinary girl, naturalized with the fact that she is a shinobi and has become a Jinchuriki, with some socialization problems because of her new status. But who doesn't feel much about it.
Who acts in the same way, not very prominent, half-pacified, half-obedient with some opinion or another trying to be sensible.
The nice and kind of dull ordinary girl that she always was LOL.
A little empathetic because for her it doesn't make sense to be a jerk to someone, and still in love with Kakashi, who tries to make him get over Obito's death and with a somewhat selfish concern that his trauma will hinder her romantic chances with him. And Obito somewhere in anguish watching all this realizing how his death had very little impact on Rin and how she is better off than he really wanted her to be with this, and that she is still as centered, focused and in love with Kakashi as ever and that the only time she remembers him is to console Kakashi, trying to appease his trauma with some condescending thing about "peace and it being Obito's true will" and that "he would be happy with it etc" and Obito bitterly regretting having "sacrificed" himself for Kakashi, wanting to go back and all the drama…
I love how Sasuke's personality was written.
He is very well portrayed as an introverted, quiet and silent person (and he likes quietness and silence, calmness), but he is not calm, peaceful or patient at all, quite the opposite, he is very irritable and irascible, even though he doesn't like to get irritated, but he can't help but lose his temper so easily LOL.
I like how his personality is not simplistic, he is not the stereotypical introvert, who is usually also calm, patient, calm, cold, etc.
Sasuke is also cold, but his mood is extremely sensitive and he can explode very quickly.
He only seems to be "calm" because he is around Sakura and Naruto who are loud and very expressive ALL THE TIME.
And how he becomes a tired adult, exhausted by his own emotional volatility.
I don't like Boruto (neither the series nor the protagonist) but in this regard, I have to admit that Sasuke was well portrayed in his emotional exhaustion with Boruto, he has no patience and doesn't put up with Boruto's nonsense.
Boruto is like a poorly made "second Minato", but much worse, Minato was portrayed as clumsy and awkward, Boruto is "intelligent" and "brilliant", but his "intelligence" and "genius" is very strict and particular, is on an island, surrounded by an ocean of stereotypical and forced stupidity, which makes his character unbearable to read, sickening and tiring.
He has an idiotic and annoying behavior and Sasuke can't stand him at all, he doesn't have an ounce of patience with Boruto and his nonsense, but he only doesn't explode (like he did with Naruto) because he is emotionally exhausted and tired, because he gets angry, but is too tired to express his irritation, and this becomes one of the few funny moments in Boruto, because the humor of their interactions is not in Boruto (who has ZERO charisma), but in Sasuke and his emotional tragedy, of not being able to express his irritation and discomfort with Boruto, because he is too tired and has no energy to do so.
This is at least the only thing done well in this sequence of Boruto (especially in relation to Sasuke).
This is so real because the only reason i even put myself through the hell that is boruto was so i could see how my boy sasuke was doing
I love the way his character his written because usually (like op said) introverted characters are written in a way that makes them calm and collected or passive and shy (like hinata for example), and while Sasuke appears to be someone who is calm and collected, he's far from it.
Whether it be because of his uchiha blood or because of the sharingan (since the uchiha are known to feel a lot stronger than other ppl) — he's someone who feels a lot.
He feels anger, he feels pain and he made this known during both his battles with naruto and his emo terrorist phase /lh.
In boruto, he's shown as someone who doesn't have patience for anyone other than those close to him (i.e, naruto, sakura, etc..) and this can be shown through his interactions with boruto. Boruto is a walmart version of naruto and this makes him come across as an annoying ass mc/spoiled brat because of his ignorance.
Sure, Naruto was a little stupid when he was a kid but he wasn't painfully ignorant of other characters' emotions and he was tolerable. He was able to pick up on others' emotions and was always true to himself. He was authentic with everything he did which is why Sasuke came to respect him as a shinobi, going as far as become the shadow hokage to aid him.
Sasuke is a very complex character underneath his introverted exterior and it's one of the reasons he's liked as a character.
Very true, this is one of the few reasons to watch this bomb that is Boruto (because Neji is dead, I'm still sad about it, but at the same time I'm grateful for not seeing him in Boruto).
For me, they could do a retcon at the end of Naruto, I wouldn't complain
And YES, Boruto is so ignorant of other people's emotions (my opinion is cruel, but he doesn't even look like Naruto's son), that it hurts to watch his character.
I love how Sasuke's personality was written.
He is very well portrayed as an introverted, quiet and silent person (and he likes quietness and silence, calmness), but he is not calm, peaceful or patient at all, quite the opposite, he is very irritable and irascible, even though he doesn't like to get irritated, but he can't help but lose his temper so easily LOL.
I like how his personality is not simplistic, he is not the stereotypical introvert, who is usually also calm, patient, calm, cold, etc.
Sasuke is also cold, but his mood is extremely sensitive and he can explode very quickly.
He only seems to be "calm" because he is around Sakura and Naruto who are loud and very expressive ALL THE TIME.
And how he becomes a tired adult, exhausted by his own emotional volatility.
I don't like Boruto (neither the series nor the protagonist) but in this regard, I have to admit that Sasuke was well portrayed in his emotional exhaustion with Boruto, he has no patience and doesn't put up with Boruto's nonsense.
Boruto is like a poorly made "second Minato", but much worse, Minato was portrayed as clumsy and awkward, Boruto is "intelligent" and "brilliant", but his "intelligence" and "genius" is very strict and particular, is on an island, surrounded by an ocean of stereotypical and forced stupidity, which makes his character unbearable to read, sickening and tiring.
He has an idiotic and annoying behavior and Sasuke can't stand him at all, he doesn't have an ounce of patience with Boruto and his nonsense, but he only doesn't explode (like he did with Naruto) because he is emotionally exhausted and tired, because he gets angry, but is too tired to express his irritation, and this becomes one of the few funny moments in Boruto, because the humor of their interactions is not in Boruto (who has ZERO charisma), but in Sasuke and his emotional tragedy, of not being able to express his irritation and discomfort with Boruto, because he is too tired and has no energy to do so.
This is at least the only thing done well in this sequence of Boruto (especially in relation to Sasuke).
Bulma making vain wishes "to prevent villains from using the Dragon Balls" is actually hilarious.
Girl maybe go and wish your husband a different hairline next time?
She has wished for her kids not to have them.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm finally revisiting the Uchiha family dynamics and I have...a lot of thoughts.
When Itachi agreed that Naruto had been a better brother, that was more literal than I first thought. Because he wasn't acting as a brother. He was acting as a parent. And I can't figure out what excuse Mikoto had for Itachi to be so parentified, but in hindsight it's so obvious that it's depressing.
The way Itachi interacted with Sasuke lacked the roughness of normal sibling love. There's no crude banter and rough housing, he teaches gently, he's happy to provide with no reluctance or annoyance, and he never tells him to go away, just that he's busy. In Parent and Child Day, instead of remembering his mother and father, when Sasuke is trying to figure out how to be a parent, he has a flashback of Itachi instead? Why was he getting that attention from his brother instead of Mikoto? When Itachi became so busy what was Sasuke supposed to do? Is that why he got so clingy??
What the fuck was going on in that household? God this is suffering
These are some of the truest words I've read about Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi was certainly not seen as a child. He was on his own the night the Kyuubi attack happened. Yes, it was unexpected and no one could have known what was going to happen, but it was not something that happened for the first time that Sasuke was left in Itachi's care.
Itachi would have craved for his parents' love as well but he'd genuinely matured before his age and had become a ninja instead. However, he still didn't want Sasuke to go through what his life so far had been. He'd not let Sasuke feel neglected. He'd not let his own achievements come in the way to his brother's progress. He saw and observed and read Sasuke like an open book, being able to see when Sasuke was upset with him, and didn't chastise him for it.
Unlike what his parents did to him — burdening him with so many responsibilities — Itachi ensured Sasuke wasn't tainted with the knowledge and darkness of the things he had seen. He let Sasuke be the child he should have been, until of course the inevitable happened.
I also love your conclusion to why their relationship isn't like a normal sibling relationship. This is why Sasuke doesn't hate Itachi after everything and remembers only Itachi's kindness towards him.
It's a fact, Itachi was treated like an adult without being one and like a weapon by his own family and by others around him, looking at it from this perspective, it's not strange that Itachi's distorted relationship with Sasuke, where he, with Sasuke, reproduced the only model of parenting he knew, it's sad when you stop to think about it.
I spent like 5 hours editing this gif frame by frame to make this shitty edit that I wanted to exist
I was about 30 minutes past having scrolled by this when my Tumblr feed bugged, and suddenly every single post was replaced by this one. Not even reblog spam or anything, it just plain overlaid the existing posts, tags and all. I've never felt more in-tune with what it means to browse Tumblr
One of my main gripes about Boruto is the weird character assassination of Naruto and Sasuke, particularly in regards to their kids. I don't know why Kishimoto thought that at twenty almost every member of the Konoha 13 were to be married off like come on. You can wait for a few more years. I know this was done for the set up but I personally think the story might've worked out better with the original gang in their 40s. It seems like it would be in character for Naruto to get married after a sufficiently long dating period because he struggles to believe that someone can actually love him for who he is, and not what he has done for the village. We should've seen his internal struggle. One of his character traits was determination and the drive to prove himself as the best, and I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't be carried over to his relationship with Hinata. His thought process would deadass be “I still don’t know what I did to deserve you, but I will damn well make sure you have no regrets choosing me, dattebayo!” He would work so hard to be good father and Hokage, and I fully believe Kakashi would be helping him with Hokage duties. The Naruto I know would try his hardest to fulfil both his roles, and when he realises that it is too much for him to handle all alone, he would call his sensei in. I’ll never understand why Kishimoto made him into a borderline irresponsible father. It is not him.
Now onto Sasuke (I could spend days talking about him). Getting married during his late twenties to early thirties would actually be more in character for him too, because his redemption and the mission would be his top priorities. He has been through severe trauma, he needs time to heal and reflect. I don’t think that twenty year old Sasuke even wanted a wife and a child, btw. I also believe that if he’d been given time, he would’ve been a far better father (the awkward but very, very sweet kind) to Sarada. He KNEW familial love. It seems inconsistent to his character to have a child at twenty. And his return feels like something he did out of a sense of duty rather than an urge to spend time with his family. Are you telling me that the boy who loved his family with all he had, who was ready to destroy the village because they had used and discarded his brother, would not know his own daughter's face? Absolutely not. He would be a present, and attentive father.
I don't have a problem with the next gen characters, they have the potential to be great. I just wish it didn't seem like Kishimoto hated women, marriage and romance to this extent. He made both his main characters - one who knew the importance of a father figure and one whose entire journey was about the love he had for his family - into bad fathers, knowing it would piss off longtime fans of the series.
I will never forgive Kishimoto for doing what he did to Naruto and Sasuke, and killing Neji
It just occurred to me that both Dragonball GT and Dragonball Super decided "We should do something with Android 17"
It makes sense. He was a pretty significant loose end that the manga left hanging. He's brought back to life at the end of the Cell Games, but his sole involvement in the entire rest of the manga is this one panel, when Goku's accumulating genki for the Buu arc Genki-Dama.
That's it. That is all we see in the original manga of whatever became of 17 after he poofed back to life.
So, y'know, if you were writing a Dragon Ball sequel series and looking for loose ends you could bring back into the story and tie off. Like. That's a biggie.
I read somewhere that this scene was supposed to be Lunch, because 17 never even met Goku in the Cell saga, it's even mentioned in the super when Goku goes in search of 17 to recruit him for ToP
Power levels in Dragonball are strangely consistent.
I don't have the patience to write much so I'll get straight to the point. Master Roshi destroys the Moon in the 21nd tournament in order to undo Goku's Oozaru transformation, In chapters 51 and 52.
His PL according to one of the official guides in that tournament was 180.
Which indicates that the minimum required to destroy the Moon is a PL of 180 in Dragonball. If you read the manga you will see that he does it with a lot of effort. Which is corroborated with Piccolo easily destroying the moon with a power of 329, in chapter 208.
His PL is read by Bulma in the next chapter, 209.
And in the Saiyan saga it is widely known that Vegeta had PL of 18,000
And Vegeta declares that he can blow up the planet in chapter 231
And you may be asking, so what? This is already known, but what is the connection between Master Roshi's 180 PL from fighting that destroyed the Moon and Vegeta's 18,000 that, according to him, could destroy the Earth?
Why is a 100x larger PL necessary to go from destroying the Moon to destroying the Earth?
The connection is the MASS between the two celestial bodies, as the Moon's mass is only 1% of the Earth's mass, and based on this it is possible to estimate the destruction capacity of the Dragonball characters.
Obviously I won't put prints here as this can be easily searched on Google.
To be more precise, if you do a quick Google search, the Moon's mass is 1.2% of the Earth's mass, but to make it easier I will consider 1%, which creates a consistent connection between Roshi's PL when destroying the Moon and Vegeta's PL when declaring that he would destroy the Earth, as his maximum power was 18,000, about 100x more, which is approximately the same mass ratio between the Moon and the Earth.
From then on, it becomes much easier to estimate the destructive capacity of the characters after this saga.
Then one might ask, what was Goku's destructive capacity in the Frieza saga, when his power reached 150,000,000 PL? (this information is also widely known) well, just do a simple math, 150,000,000/18,000, which gives approximately 8,333, and that, simply put, corresponds to approximately 26 times the mass of Jupiter, Frieza with 60,000,000 did not blow up Namek immediately (imagine the mass that Namek must have to not have been destroyed immediately!)
And this is still a long way from being able to destroy the entire Solar System as Cell declared he could, and this is also not inconsistent, as Future Trunks killed Frieza and his father easily, but he had no chance with the Androids who were weaker than Cell in its perfect form.
Because estimating by the mass of the Sun, which concentrates 99.85% of the Mass of the Solar System, it is necessary at least approximately a power capable of destroying 1000x the mass of Jupiter to be able to destroy the Sun, and just over 1000x to destroy the Solar System entire in DragonBall.
Cell in his perfect form was approximately 40 times stronger than Goku in his first Super Saiyan transformation, and this scale is quite consistent with how PL in Dragonball usually scales.
No matter what they say about BDGT, that it's filler, that it's not canonical etc, it really doesn't matter, but the design of SSJ4 is the best design of Saiyan transformations that has been created, even though I don't like the color schemes chosen and I have no idea what color scheme it should have either, but I love the design of the SSJ4, the only thing that kills me is that name, they could have given the transformation another name, for me this "Oozaru form" is not an SS.