Thank you so much for your answer! I'd love to hear your thoughts on their relationship before the series begins. We know that the scene they shared in agot was not reflective of their actual dynamic even if most people loooove to forget that part. How did they interact? Did they ever? How was their relationship especially when Jon was a toddler or around 7-8? Thank you for your time!
oh fun question! well let's start from the beginning, we know that Catelyn was upset to find Jon in Winterfell before her
When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep.
A Game of Throne- Catelyn II
but keep in mind Catelyn didn't know Ned yet. they'd obviously met and married but she doesn't really know anything about his temperament yet and even with that she's just arrived in a new place that will be her home forever, there's no way out, so the idea of her immediately showing her displeasure with Jon or Ned feels unlikely to me because in Family, Duty, Honor fashion she would first and foremost try to make her new family work to fulfill her father's alliance and be forced to put her wounded honor to the side. we know she did eventually work up the courage to ask Ned about Ashara Dayne
The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice.
A Game of Thrones- Catelyn II
Ned scared her so bad she never asked again and neither did the servants. Now the fandom has a pretty simplistic, whitewashed view of Ned that isn't supported in canon but I would still call this out of character for him and Catelyn does too but remember, she barely knew him at this point, so it makes sense why she completely dropped the topic of not just Ashara but probably Jon as whole for a few years. but of course we know it does come up again.
Now I personally think the real trouble would start to come in as Jon was weened and was still in Winterfell. If he no longer needed a wet-nurse there's no reason not to foster him off in classic bastard fashion and Catelyn clearly thinks so too
Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him.
A Game of Thrones- Catelyn II
Catelyn, of her own admission, was often trying to get Ned to kick Jon out of Winterfell. now this is where I need to remind people that I LOVE Catelyn Tully Stark. I'm on her team, I'm on her side, I'd buy her Mother's Day gifts if I could. most people in this fandom are actually pretty chill about the Catelyn Jon dynamic but there are two sides that think catelyn was an evil abusive wicked witch of the west specifically out to get an infant because she just feels like being evil and another side that thinks she never did anything to him and he's a spoiled brat who should be grateful she didn't make him sleep outside and eat only dog food. both are extremely annoying.
the truth is Catelyn was cruel to Jon and yes by George RR Martin's own words she never laid hands on him and she wasn't directly berating him throughout the years because like I said Catelyn isn't evil and she doesn't enjoy cruelty but when a child says he feels guilty eating in front of you there's a problem.
Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.
A Dance With Dragons- Jon IV
now it's possible Jon is projecting his own insecurities on to Catelyn here except:
Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.
A Game of Thrones- Catelyn VI
Catelyn does feel guilty for the way she's treated Jon. yes making Jon feel uncomfortable in Winterfell served a purpose, making sure he knows its not his. he has no right to it. Robb does. Robb will inherit. If not Robb then Bran, if not Bran then Rickon and so on and so forth. but none the less it was fucking mean. but here's the thing, Catelyn can't change society, she's navigating the rules she's given and Ned isn't, I imagine that would send her up a wall sometimes. because as she said Ned can have all the bastards he wants and she wouldn't care but Jon has no business being there and no business being treated like a true born next to her actual true born sons
"This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.
A Game of Thrones- Jon VIII
why the hell is Jon being allowed to handle the Stark ancestral sword? this is so widely out of the norm for Westeros it almost feels illegal. I can completely understand why Catelyn started trying to drill into Robb's head that Jon was different from him
That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." A Storm of Swords- Jon XII
and it's also known throughout the Winterfell that there are hostilities between Jon and Catelyn. when Robb see's Jon is upset he immediately wonders if his mother is the reason
His voice was flat and tired. The visit had taken all the strength from him. Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …"
"She was … very kind," Jon told him.
A Game of Thrones- Jon II
Jon also famously has the line where he admits Catelyn has never so much as called him by his name before so on Catelyn's side the relationship is somewhere on a spectrum from non existent to hostile. on Jon's side? well we know that Jon very consciously craved a mother
He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. A Game of Thrones- Jon III
often felt like he had to prove himself to his father
Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that.
A Storm of Swords- Jon X
and I want to be clear, I know it wasn't Catelyn's job to make Jon feel welcome in his home, Ned really dropped the ball. It's Ned's fault that Jon just assumed he'd be destitute with no prospects by the time he turned 16 and it shows in the way Jon craves father figures in his life after he leaves Winterfell. Jeor Mormont, Benjen Stark, Mance Rayder, Maester Aemon, Stannis Baratheon I mean the list goes on. The thing is though there are no older women in Jon's life. Not at the Wall and not really in Winterfell either. He and Robb don't seem to take lessons from Septa Mordane and while Old Nan certainly taught him some important stories she doesn't seem to have set a maternal presence in his life.
I'm not saying Catelyn was or should have been Jon's mother because she wasn't and it surely wasn't her job but I do think she subconsciously fills that second parental placeholder in his head next to Ned because he clearly craves one but has no other woman to fill it.
Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.
It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's.
A Storm of Swords- Jon XII
while this isn't Jon's deciding factor the idea of upsetting her or once again being rejected by her really bothers him, so much so that he can't even go on training with his friends, he has to leave and take a walk all alone. She's also one of the deciding factors when he's deciding whether to take his lifelong vows for the Night's Watch.
By the time the moon was full again, he would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.
Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you.
A Game of Thrones- Jon V
but let's be clear Jon isn't just sitting around waiting for her to hug him. he doesn't like her either.
"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen.
A Game of Thrones- Jon VII
he blames her for Ned's death just as much as he blames Cersei which is unfair and a bit delusional but childhood resentment will do that to a 15 year old.
So what was Jon and Catelyn's relationship like? Bad. Catelyn and Jon never had a chance. they were failed by the system. women and bastards seem to have a lot in common in Westeros in the sense that their agency is greatly limited. their safety rests on the graces of whatever man has placed their claim on them and this woman and this bastard were vying for the graces of the same man and felt one couldn't have it if the other did too. which is a shame in and of itself because I think they're both better at this game than Ned was.
***Less about their pre-series relationship but Jon and Catelyn have so much in common thematically and politically speaking. I did a parallel of them if you'd like to check it out
I’m trying to make a timeline for Robert’s Rebellion, and have some facts and math to share:
Rhaegar and Elia married in 280
Rhaenys was born in 280 on Dragonstone
Based on this, Rhaegar and Elia’s wedding would have been around the first, second, or third month so there was enough time to conceive Rhaenys. Rhaenys would have been born in the 10th, 11th, or 12th month.
After Rhaenys’ birth, Elia was bedridden for six months
Good news: this means Elia almost certainly was not present when Aerys said Rhaenys “smelled Dornish.” Maybe she never learned. Rhaenys was born on Dragonstone and historical bedrest usually also included a “you are not allowed to travel” order from the doctor (or maester)
Bad news: Rhaegar very rudely took his infant daughter away from her mother while her mother was essentially dying
Aegon was born in late 281 or very early 282
Worse news: Elia would have been off bedrest between 4th month and 6th month. Assuming Aegon was born in 1/282, Elia would have conceived almost immediately after getting out of bed. If Rhaenys was born early and Elia got off bedrest in 4/281, she would have had to be pregnant again within a month or so to give birth in 1/282. If not, Rhaegar insisted on conceiving a child while she was supposed to be resting.
hey, can you talk about this: why is it that even after jaime saves brienne from rape & jumps into a bearpit for her, brienne still expects the worst from him and thinks he wants her to kill sansa? can b ever fully trust and love jaime? will brienne ever accept that jaime loves her and is capable of good or will she always expect evil from him/ be insecure + expect him to pull a ronnet? i think this will cause problems for them if they ever get together. do you think it would be a deal-breaker?
tldr: no because the moment you read her affc povs you see she’s way past her initial distrust and actually that scene is... the turning point? like you don’t know that because you don’t have her pov, but anyway I think I’ll just break it down and be done with it since I had wanted to for a while - regardless, premise: you can see exactly how far she goes with trusting him/changing her mind about him by seeing her dialogue choices in asos before, as in, she calls him ser for the first time after he saves her from being raped and when they’re in the bath she snaps at him the moment he goads her about renly and she’s naked in front of a man and she feels most likely guilty for the loss of his hand, and the moment he faints she catches him and she volunteers to dress him/clean him up after, like... you don’t do that if you don’t want to and if you don’t care about the person some regardless. ANYWAY SO let me just find the whole scene.
SOOOO, counting that he’s doing this just after he basically broke up with cersei...
The wench looked as ugly and awkward as ever, he decided when Tyrell left them. Someone had dressed her in woman’s clothes again, but this dress fit much better than that hideous pink rag the goat had made her wear. “Blue is a good color on you, my lady,” Jaime observed. “It goes well with your eyes.” She does have astonishing eyes.
Brienne glanced down at herself, flustered. “Septa Donyse padded out the bodice, to give it that shape. She said you sent her to me.” She lingered by the door, as if she meant to flee at any second. “You look . . .”
“Different?” He managed a half-smile. “More meat on the ribs and fewer lice in my hair, that’s all. The stump’s the same. Close the door and come here.”
She did as he bid her. “The white cloak . . .”
“. . . is new, but I’m sure I’ll soil it soon enough.”
“That wasn’t . . . I was about to say that it becomes you.”
right, so, when this entire scene starts you have the worst flirting that ever existed but like basically that’s pretty much what it is - they haven’t seen each other in a while right, and first he goes like UH UGLY AND AWKWARD, then in the span of three lines he decides that the dress looks nice on her and it fits her, and when he opens his mouth he calls her my lady and compliments her on her appearance and her eyes and then thinks SHE HAS ASTONISHING EYES which like... jaime you were thinking she was ugly three lines ago where is the truth, the truth is that he’s hella attracted to her, he’s not admitting it to himself but he can’t help saying it and so hey hello brienne, you just showed up in my room where I summoned you after having you freed and I’m telling you you’re hot!! when you never heard it before from a guy ever!!!
brienne at that point is FLUSTERED and feels like pointing out the bodice is padded as if he hasn’t seen her naked, and she’s obviously afraid af because she’s standing near the door, and then she goes like ‘you look...’ while most likely STARING at him like OH MY GOD HAVEN’T SEEN HIM IN WEEKS LOOK AT HIM jesus, and then he starts going off with the self-deprecating humor telling her to get over here, she does, she starts again with the white cloak, he goes all defensive self-deprecating again (I’ll soil it soon enough, presuming that she still thinks that of him)... and then she goes like I was about to say it becomes you, which means I’m telling you A WHITE CLOAK FITS YOU AND IS BECOMING ON YOU, which given the significancy of the white cloak/kg/the fact that he confessed her he believed in his vow/knighthood when he was fifteen in the bath... she’s telling him being honorable becomes him, which sorry but does not to me qualify as ‘expecting the worse of him’. now:
She came closer, hesitant. “Jaime, did you mean what you told Ser Loras? About . . . about King Renly, and the shadow?”
Jaime shrugged. “I would have killed Renly myself if we’d met in battle, what do I care who cut his throat?”
“You said I had honor . . .”
“I’m the bloody Kingslayer, remember? When I say you have honor, that’s like a whore vouchsafing your maidenhood.” He leaned back and looked up at her.
problem is: he is on the self-deprecative spiral wanting to distance himself, which I have a feeling is because he’s a) upset because of cersei from before b) not exactly processing his feelings re being into her, so everything she is saying he’s shutting her down, which makes her hesitant - first he shrugs away having gotten her out of prison and talking for her to loras when if you read that part you know he cares about getting her out, she’s all like oh YOU SAID I HAD HONOR!!! **, and he immediately shuts that down too with the it’s worth nothing if I do, so basically she’s there all ‘!!! ** !!!’ and he’s back to shutting her out, which... considering how brienne is would make her lose a lot of courage here, right? right. also: SHE CALLED HIM JAIME in the beginning, which means... she feels like they’re on a familiar enough level that she can use his name without the ser before and she’s not calling him kingslayer. like. she’s absolutely expecting the best here.
“Steelshanks is on his way back north, to deliver Arya Stark to Roose Bolton.”
“You gave her to him?” she cried, dismayed. “You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn . . .”
“With a sword at my throat, but never mind. Lady Catelyn’s dead. I could not give her back her daughters even if I had them. And the girl my father sent with Steelshanks was not Arya Stark.”
“Not Arya Stark?”
“You heard me. My lord father found some skinny northern girl more or less the same age with more or less the same coloring. He dressed her up in white and grey, gave her a silver wolf to pin her cloak, and sent her off to wed Bolton’s bastard.” He lifted his stump to point at her. “I wanted to tell you that before you went galloping off to rescue her and got yourself killed for no good purpose. You’re not half bad with a sword, but you’re not good enough to take on two hundred men by yourself.”
now, for the chapter where grrm knows that words mean things: the definition of dismayed is : experiencing or showing feelings of alarmed concern or dismay : upset, worried, or agitated because of some unwelcome situation or occurrence, which means that the moment jaime goes like ‘oh and I gave arya to roose bolton’ she is UPSET at hearing that... because she didn’t expect that? she changed her mind, she thinks he’s honorable, he saved her from being raped, he’s complimenting her, she’s trying to compliment him, she thinks they have an understanding, he told her all of that...... and now he’s telling her he gave arya back to the boltons? when she thought he cared about their oath and he freed her? like what the fuck jaime? obviouly she’s upset, but because she already expected better and he’s a disaster emotionally stunted person who just moved on from 17yo of emotional maturity and he can’t have that conversation without going in self-defense. he points out he can’t do that but anyway then tells her it’s not arya.. because he didn’t want brienne to go after her ie he cared about her well-being and now he throws in a compliment too (you’re not half bad with a sword) and she’s most likely like wtf, also he gestures at her with the stump which cersei refused to interact with before and brienne doesn’t even flinch at that, but never mind let’s go on.
Brienne shook her head. “When Lord Bolton learns that your father paid him with false coin . . .”
“Oh, he knows. Lannisters lie, remember? It makes no matter, this girl serves his purpose just as well. Who is going to say that she isn’t Arya Stark? Everyone the girl was close to is dead except for her sister, who has disappeared.”
“Why would you tell me all this, if it’s true? You are betraying your father’s secrets.”
The Hand’s secrets, he thought. I no longer have a father. “I pay my debts like every good little lion. I did promise Lady Stark her daughters . . . and one of them is still alive. My brother may know where she is, but if so he isn’t saying. Cersei is convinced that Sansa helped him murder Joffrey.”
“The wench’s mouth got stubborn. “I will not believe that gentle girl a poisoner. Lady Catelyn said that she had a loving heart. It was your brother. There was a trial, Ser Loras said.”
as stated: she shakes her head, which is a thing you do... when you’ve just been given conflicting information, which he just did because he just told her HEY MY FATHER JUST BASICALLY LIED TO HIS ALLY, but poor girl is not a political shrewd mind because a moment later he explains her that they both knew and so on, and at that point brienne is understandably like WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS IT’S TREASON, which it technically is.... and then he remembers tywin disowned him and they argued so ‘I no longer have a father’, but he doesn’t tell brienne that, goes back to self-defensive, goes like ‘well I’m a good lion and I pay my debts’ and then only mentions what his brother and sister think, counting that brienne doesn’t know tyrion and know what he does about cersei... that might make her think that he’s taking their side, and now she is getting defensive pointing out it couldn’t be sansa and so on, but like... he basically has given her conflicted reactions, now she’s back on the defensive... as she generally is unless it’s with someone she trusts.
“Two trials, actually. Words and swords both failed him. A bloody mess. Did you watch from your window?”
“My cell faces the sea. I heard the shouting, though.”
“Prince Oberyn of Dorne is dead, Ser Gregor Clegane lies dying, and Tyrion stands condemned before the eyes of gods and men. They’re keeping him in a black cell till they kill him.”
Brienne looked at him. “You do not believe he did it.”
Jaime gave her a hard smile. “See, wench? We know each other too well. Tyrion’s wanted to be me since he took his first step, but he’d never follow me in kingslaying. Sansa Stark killed Joffrey. My brother’s kept silent to protect her. He gets these fits of gallantry from time to time. The last one cost him a nose. This time it will mean his head.”
now they discuss the trials blah blah blah, and brienne figures out he doesn’t believe tyrion did it just from the tone/the way he says it - because the facts are kind of straight, so it must be the tone of voice, and then what does he says as he gives her a *hard smile*? that they know each other too well. and then he goes and says a bunch of stuff that’s not true (sansa killed joffrey, tyrion kept silent), goading her again...
“No,” Brienne said. “It was not my lady’s daughter. It could not have been her.”
“There’s the stubborn stupid wench that I remember.”
“She reddened. “My name is . . .”
“Brienne of Tarth.” Jaime sighed. “I have a gift for you.” He reached down under the Lord Commander’s chair and brought it out, wrapped in folds of crimson velvet.
Brienne approached as if the bundle was like to bite her, reached out a huge freckled hand, and flipped back a fold of cloth. Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip, and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black the ripples shone. A finger of reflected light ran red along the edge. “Is this Valyrian steel? I have never seen such colors.”
“Nor I. There was a time that I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it.” Before she could think to refuse, he went on. “A sword so fine must bear a name. It would please me if you would call this one Oathkeeper. One more thing. The blade comes with a price.”
... at which brienne absolutely falls for it and protests but then he goes like ‘oh there you are’, so he was most likely either testing her or pushing her to say it again/assure himself of what he was doing, but for her... it’d be even more confusing. she blushes when he calls her wench, and then when he says he has a gift she’s scared af until she sees what it is, and when she asks what it is first he does the self-deprecation thing again, then says he wants it named oathkeeper, so far so good... and then says it comes with a price, which makes it sound like she has to do something in return to have it, and how would that sound to her after this entire conversation when he hasn’t told her that he’s cut off ties with anyone but tyrion and he’s been basically hostile/sarcastic/has rebuked all her compliments?
Her face darkened. “I told you, I will never serve . . .”
“. . . such foul creatures as us. Yes, I recall. Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . .”
Brienne’s homely face twisted in fury. “If you believe that I would harm my lady’s daughter for a sword, you—”
“Just listen,” he snapped, angered by her assumption. “I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?”
The wench blinked. “I . . . I thought . . .”
now here’s the point but like... she assumes he wanted her to do what cersei wanted when he hasn’t given her any other hint he might want to do otherwise throughout the exchange and basically never told her anything straight and she had come in all excited and wanting to compliment him and presuming the best, and then he gets angry because she assumed wrong... but what was she going to assume? then again: asos!jaime handles a lot of his interactions like an angry teenager because again he started moving on from it during this book and he has no idea of how to deal with her or that that kinda attitude would confuse the shit out of her and make her assume wrong things when she wasn’t assuming them to begin with, and when she immediately realizes he just wanted to keep the oath she goes back to OH, like... she was presuming they’d withhold it from the beginning when she mentioned it along with arya, so it’s her now knowing she was right and go like OH FUCK I FUCKED UP, but like... jaime baby ily but just tell her from the get go right? nah, I guess. buuut let’s go on.
“I know what you thought.” Suddenly Jaime was sick of the sight of her. She bleats like a bloody sheep. “When Ned Stark died, his greatsword was given to the King’s Justice,” he told her. “But my father felt that such a fine blade was wasted on a mere headsman. He gave Ser Ilyn a new sword, and had Ice melted down and reforged. There was enough metal for two new blades. You’re holding one. So you’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel, if that makes any difference to you.”
“Ser, I . . . I owe you an apolo . . .”
He cut her off. “Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”
“Jaime . . .”
“Kingslayer,” he reminded her. “Best use that sword to clean the wax out of your ears, wench. We’re done.”
Stubbornly, she persisted. “Joffrey was your . . .”
now not that I don’t think that jaime wasn’t pushing her also in... outright denial of not wanting her to go, but: now he’s angry at her (when he technically got her angry when he could have not) and wants her to go and he’s telling her again in the sarcasticselfdefense tone and she immediately - immediately - tries to apologize, he shuts her off, doesn’t tell her that the mare is not homely at all, and tells her it’s naught to him when it’s all to him since she knows what his honor means to him, she goes from ‘ser’ (honorific) to ‘jaime’ (personal) and he goes back to ‘nah I’m the kingslayer see that’s all I’ll ever be leave’, except that... she doesn’t leave and she persists, stubbornly, because she actually wants to know, and presses asking about joffrey since she knows he was his father and is most likely still WTFFFFF HE’S BETRAYING HIS FAMILY...
“My king. Leave it at that.”
“You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?”
Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?”
Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went.
she expects him to say his son? he say ‘his king’ and LEAVE IT AT THAT, giving the idea he doesn’t care, and at that point she goes like okay so why would you protect the person you said killed him, fair question right, which I think on her side was... wanting to see what he’d reply because she’s realizing he won’t answer straight right, and exactly he thinks ‘joffrey deserved it and was nothing to me’ but doesn’t tell her that, he tells her that he made kings and unmade them, fair, and then that sansa is his last chance at honor, and smiles thinly (not hard like before), which suggests he’s visually being sincere, and it’s an answer brienne would get... and then he reminds her that he’s called a kingslayer and she is called one and neither of them actually were in the wrong but they both have bad fame for it and they should band together and pledge their oath, and... brienne gets it because she stops asking questions, takes the sword and goes, but instead of falling for his bait or be angry about being called a kingslayer, she says she’ll fulfill their oath and find sansa for catelyn’s sake and for his sake too, pointing out she’s swearing a vow to him too before she leaves after bowing, which basically seals it...
which means that she walked in with a good impression of him, he challenged it, then she realized it wasn’t wrong and he just was shit as communicating and she’s not... expecting the worse anymore? anytime she thinks of him in affc is as the honorable man who saved her and she swore a vow to and she wishes would be with her on her quest, not as someone she doesn’t trust. so, to go with your questions:
1) brienne still expects the worst from him and thinks he wants her to kill sansa?
as stated from the above: she doesn’t :)
2) can b ever fully trust and love jaime?
she was about to die for him at the end of affc, I think she already does X°D
3) will brienne ever accept that jaime loves her and is capable of good or will she always expect evil from him/ be insecure + expect him to pull a ronnet?
she’s already... not? I mean, accepting he loves her might be a problem because she doesn’t conceive he would as it is and it’d take a while for her to not be insecure, but that he’s capable of good she already does, and she’s way past expecting him to pull a ronnet XD she doesn’t even compare them once like... I don’t see how this would be a thing X°DD
4) i think this will cause problems for them if they ever get together. do you think it would be a deal-breaker?
I don’t because like... okay her being insecure might eventually but honestly she wanted to die for him anon and she was convinced of his good intentions the moment she walked into the room and then he threw her in for a loop and she came out of that even more convinced soooooo no I really don’t think it would XD
Whenever we think about GoT the first thing that comes to mind is dragons, ice zombies and the disaster that was the final season. But only readers know that it has been inaccurate since they decided to write a storyline without its main pov. And yes, I’m talking about Dorne and Arianne Martell.
But despite its many failures, there was only one thing pretty accurate, the location. They chose the Real Alcázar in Seville, one of the many monuments erected during the 800-year period in which arabs dominated the peninsula and multiculturalism was appreciated in the bib-ramblas as 3 different cultures coexisted in the same caliphate.
Today we’re going to take a look at The Queenmaker and analyze her caricature as that of her family relationship and love affairs with that of other relevant figure in the culture of Al-Andalus for being the most important poetess.
Wallada bint al-Mustakfi
Her father rose from his chair to kiss her on both cheeks. "The fate of Dorne goes with you, daughter," he said. [...] She did not shed a tear. Arianne Martell was a princess of Dorne, and Dornishmen did not waste water lightly.
Like Arianne, Wallada was a princess and the daughter of Muhammad III of Córdoba, one of the last Umayyad Cordoban caliphs.
"You know me, captain," Arianne had said, as the leagues rolled past. "You have known me since I was little. You always kept me safe, as you kept my lady mother safe when you came with her from Great Norvos to be her shield in a strange land.”
Wallada’s mother, Amin'am, was brought from the distant lands of Hungary. But if we look closely, Norvos has a lot of similarities with Budapest;
Situated among the hills of Norvos, on a tributary of the Rhoyne, a major river on the continent of Essos. / Budapest sits on the eastern edge of Transdanubia (a hilly region extending from the Danube to the Alps).
Gateway for caravans travelling on the ancient Valyrian roads. / Budapest being situated at the crossroads of international trade routes from Eurasia.
Norvos is a city is split in two, the High City which is on a hill and the Low City on the river. / Budapest is split in two. Buda sits on the hills on the western size of the river while Pest sits on the plain to the east of the river.
Norvos is surrounded by small walled villages supporting the main city. / King Bela IV ordered the construction of stone walls around villages after the Mongol invasion.
Home of the bearded priests. / Order of the Dragon & Order of Saint George
There were Myrish carpets on the floor, red wine to drink, books to read. In one corner stood an ornate cyvasse table with pieces carved of ivory and onyx, though she had no one to play with even if she had been so inclined. She had a featherbed to sleep in, and a privy with a marble seat, sweetened by a basketful of herbs. [...] She found a cedar chest full of her clothes at the foot of her bed, so she stripped out of the travel-stained garb she had slept in and donned the most revealing garments she could find, wisps of silk.
Dorne's economy was able to keep them independent from House Targaryen for so long, but how is that possible when they don't have gold mines like the Lannisters or agriculture like the Tyrells? Very simple, the use of water to plant unique fruits that need a warm climate like citrus or olives and the trade relations they have with Essos. Being descendants of the Rhoynar, they have a closer contact with the Archon of Tyrosh or the merchants of Qarth. That’s how Doran met Mellario in the first place.
In Al-Andalus, an irrigation system was also created that went through the subsoil of the Caliphate and thanks to arranged marriages, they won ivory and silk brought from distant China. This is the case of Wallada's mother, being the daughter of a merchant who offered his services in exchange for his daughter rising to a better social position by marrying the caliph.
The decline of the caliphate would begin with the Ottoman-Hungarian wars (1366) that blocked many trade routes and the caliphate soon began to weaken as it was surrounded by enemies (Christian kingdoms in the north and Berbers in the south), which would later generate a disintegration until they were reduced in the Nasrid Kingdom of Granada (1230-1492).
However, Prince Doran did not mean for her to wed a Dornishman. [...] When Arianne reached the age of marriage, Doran presented her with several suitors, all of whom were elderly lords (including Ben Beesbury, Walder Frey, Gyles Rosby, Eldon Estermont, and Hugh Grandison), while rejecting an offer from Lord Hoster Tully, who had invited Arianne to travel to Riverrun and meet his heir Edmure. Arianne refused all of the elderly suitors.
Wallada’s father, Muhámmad III, came to power on January 11, 1024 by assassinating the previous caliph Abderramán V. This generated a turbulent reign, since many didn’t agree that he governed without having been elected before.
That is why, just having a daughter as an heir, he thought, like Doran, to betroth her to eldery Christian dukes and counts of the north to preserve his lineage and annex certain lands, but this only generated more tension and ended up being murdered with poison in Uclés.
Days came and went, one after the other, so many that Arianne lost count of how long she had been imprisoned. She found herself spending more and more time abed, until she reached the point where she did not rise at all except to use her privy. The meals the servants brought grew cold, untouched. Arianne slept and woke and slept again, and still felt too weary to rise. Fresh meals replaced the old ones, but she did not eat them either. Once, when she felt especially strong, she carried all the food to the window and flung it out into the yard, so it would not tempt her. The effort exhausted her, so afterward she crawled back into bed and slept for half a day.
After her father’s death, Wallada was taken away from the capital to a summer residence used by the royal family called "Medina Azahara" and left isolated for a month. During that time they were debating what to do with her as she was the last of the Umayyad dynasty, one of the 4 lineages that dated back to the time of Muhammad.
Unlike Arianne who was confined in a tower, Wallada could go out to the gardens as long as she did not go outside the permitted perimeter. During that time she wrote poetry that resemble Arianne's charisma and way of being;
I am fit for high positions by Allah and am going my way with pride.
I allow my lover to touch my cheek and bestow my kiss on him who craves it.
Wallada was lucky that her father's death coincided with the splendor of the political career of Abu ‘l Hazm of the Banu Jawahr. He established a republic with a council of ministers (called wazirs) to advise him. It was for this reason that after being confined, they gave Wallada her father's fortune in exchange for distancing herself from royalty.
Abu al-Waleed Ahmad Ibn Zaydun was, like Wallada, a member of the noble classes. Like Gerold Dayne being famously known as “The Sword of The Night”, he was called “The Scribe of The Night” for being the stage of the day where he had more inspiration to write his poems.
The two wrote poems back and forth, and the entire court was soon buzzing with gossip about the affair between the dashing young wazir and the beautiful princess. And then, it all began to go sour. Wallada caught him with another man and betrayed her trust, like Gerold did with Arianne after trying to kill Myrcella.
You were for me nothing but a sweetmeat that I took a bite of and then tossed away the crust, leaving it to be gnawed on by a rat.
Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he'd fooled her. [...] Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well.
Anyway, thanks for reading! I had a lot of fun looking into this and pulling some comparisons out. Arab culture is so underrated so I hope curiosity has awakened them some of the people that crossed with this post. Keep calm waiting for twow and Unbow, Unbent, Unbroken!
Was the Stark Ancestral Sword Ice the Original “Lightbringer”?
In a recent interview Nikolaj Coster-Waldau hinted that there might be a deeper meaning to the fact that Jaime Lannister and Brienne Tarth wields Valyrian steel swords made from the Stark ancestral sword Ice.
(The HuffPost)
Ice was a great sword of Valyrian steel that has belonged to House Stark for times immemorial. We see Ned Stark wield it in his capacity as Warden of the North in the very first episode of season 1 and he is decapitated by his own blade in episode 9 of the same season.
In season 4, Tywin Lannister ordered Ice melted down and reforged into two new swords meant for his son Jaime and his grand-son Joffrey Baratheon - so that House Lannister could once again have Valyrian steel (House Lannister lost their Valyrian sword Brightroar in when King Tommen II sailed to the ruins of Valyria).
That was a rather painful moment for fans of House Stark - seeing a symbol of their House appropriated by their enemies. Ice was made into two new swords. Joffrey named his sword Widow’s Wail (because he’s a little shit) but Jaime gave his sword to Brienne of Tarth who named it Oathkeeper.
There’s a beautiful sort of poetic justice to the fact that the remnants of Ned Stark’s sword are going to be wielded in defense of Winterfell and Ned Stark’s children. However, NWC’s words seems to hint that the deeper meaning of these two swords goes beyond the emotional resonance of this. In fact, his words reawakened a theory that has been puttering about at the back of my head for a while: What if Ice was the magical sword of the Lightbringer myth? It may sound like a bit of a reach - and maybe it is - but I have several reasons for thinking that Ice may in fact have been the original Lightbringer.
JAIME’S DREAM
According to the Jade Compendium, Lightbringer burned fiery hot when wielded in battle - it was, in short, a burning sword. Burning swords appear multiple times in ASoIaF as I’ve elaborated on in this essay. One of these times is during a dream that Jaime has in ASoS. When an injured Jaime is being escorted back to King’s Landing, he has a vivid dream whilst sleeping with his head on the stump of a Weirwood tree. In this dream, Jaime wields a burning sword:
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said. It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. (ASoS, IV)
Brienne appears in his dream and she, too, is given a sword that takes flame:
Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. […] Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. (ASoS, Jaime IV)
What is especially noteworthy here, is the fact that the two swords burn with a silver-blue fire!
This is a significant detail since the prophecy of Azor Ahai come again calls Lightbringer not only a burning sword but the Red Sword of Heroes!
"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." - Melisandre (ACoK, Davos I)
I’ve previously argued (here and here) that the prophecy of Azor Ahai may not be what Melisandre and the audience think it is. It is very possible that GRRM will subject this part of the story to a epic Prophecy Twist - and that the prophecy is not the promise of a saviour but rather a warning.
Now let’s get back to Jaime’s dream. In this context, this dream may foreshadow both he and Brienne will wield Valyrian swords in the Great War - but the fact that the swords burn silver-blue sets them apart from the prophecy of AA coem again. Jaime has this dream before he returns to King’s Landing where Tywin gives him one of the two Valyrian swords that he had made out of Ice, the ancestral sword of House Stark.
Jaime gives this sword to Brienne when he sends her on her mission to find and protect Sansa Stark. He asks her to fullfill the oath he gave to Catelyn Stark and that is why Brienne names her sword Oathkeeper.
The second sword made from Ice was given to Joffrey who named it Widow’s Wail. It is unclear what happened to this sword after Joffrey’s death but it is assumed that it is kept in trust for Tommen until he grows older. Will Jaime eventually wield Widow’s Wail? I find this quite possible given this dream - and since Jaime does indeed wield Widow’s Wail in seasons 7 and 8, the show might just have spoiled this particular plot point.
However, Jaime’s dream might also hint that the two Valyrian swords made from Ice are special in a more magical sense. They burn like Azor Ahai’s magical sword Lightbringer burned, according to the myths and legends. Yet they burn with silver-blue fire as opposed to the red flames of the prophecy of AA come again. Thus, through this dream imagery, the remnants of Ice are connected to Lightbringer on the level of associative logic.
THE LAST HERO
The myth of Azor Ahai and the legend of Lightbringer are stories that have come out of Asshai, on the far end of the world. So could Ice actually be Lightbringer? This is where we have to take a look at the figure of the Last Hero, which is the character who is credited with leading the defense against the Others in Northern lore. The story of the Last Hero goes like this:
How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night’s Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.(TWoIaF, Ancient History: The Long Night)
(The Last Hero. Art by Roman Papsuev)
Who was the Last Hero? No one really knows but I’ve argued that you can make a case that the Last Hero was none other than Brandon the Builder, the legendary founder of House Stark, the architect of Winterfell and the Wall as well as the Hightower in Oldtown and Storm’s End, the ancestral seat of House Baratheon. Why do I think that the Last Hero was Brandon the Builder? It was this snippet of text in The World of Ice and Fire, the companion book to the series, that lead to my identification of the Last Hero with Brandon the Builder:
Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. (tWoIaF)
In the myths of the North, the Last Hero sought the secret cities of the Children of the Forest - and now this piece of information from Maester Childer’s book Winter’s Kings or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell places Brandon the Builder in those self-same hidden cities. That is too much of a coincidence in my humble opinion.
If the Last Hero was indeed Brandon the Builder, founder of House Stark, then how does Ice come into the equation? Interestingly, in ADwD the text reveals another intriguing piece of information:
I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.” “Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?” (ADwD, Jon II)
Thus, the text hints that the last hero wielded a sword of Valyrian steel and that a weapon of this material could slay a White Walker. This is something that the show confirmed in season 5 when Jon Snow killed a WW with Longclaw, which is made from Valyrian steel.
The question now is this: How did the Last Hero/Brandon the Builder get a Valyrian steel sword before the rise of Old Valyria (the rise of Valyria and the Dragonlords is generally placed after the Long Night in the historical chronology of GRRM’s world). Furthermore, if Ice was the original Lightbringer, then what is the connection between the legend of Lightbringer and Valyrian steel swords?
THE MYTH OF LIGHTBRINGER AS AN ALLEGORY
I have previously written about how the legend of Lightbringer works as a subversion of the trope of the Magic Sword on a meta-textual level. Many readers fail to realize that magic swords already exists in Westeros!
GRRM has specified that Valyrian swords require magic for the forging, which means that every single sword made of Valyrian steel is, in fact, a magic sword!
However, he doesn’t specify what kind of magic is required to make Valyrian steel. Some fans have speculated that dragonfire was necessary to forge Valyrian steel and while I understand the reasoning it doesn’t strike me as particularly practical in its application. Instead, I think that there’s a clue hidden in the companion book in the section on the Free City of Qohor because the smiths of this Essosi city still know the secret to rework Valyrian steel:
The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge. (TWoIaF, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)
It is a secret jealously guarded:
Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealously the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol, the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce a steel to equal that of the Freehold. (TWoIaF, The Free Cities: Qohor)
This is an interesting story though it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since Ice was reforged in King’s Landing by Tobho Mott:
Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. (AGoT, Eddard IV)
Mott, however, used magic when he reforged the ancestral Stark great sword Ice into two new Valyrian swords for House Lannister :
But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.(Tobho Mott to Tyrion Lannister, ASoS, Tyrion IV)
Whilst Mott was trained in Qohor, I seriously doubt that he could get away with killing someone unnoticed. However, it is possible that some kind of blood magic is involved in reworking Valyrian steel. Blood magic doesn’t have to involve murder as Melisandre demonstrates with the use of blood fattened leeches.
This brings us back to the myth of Lightbringer, which is the story of how Azor Ahai forges a sword in the holy fires of a temple and then quences it in the heart’s blood of his faithful wife Nissa Nissa:
A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade and as it glowed white hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world. She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.” - Salladhor Saan to Davos Seaworth (ACoK, Davos I)
(Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. The Forging of Lightbringer. Art by Amok)
The role of myth is a recurring theme in ASoIaF. GRRM plays with the idea that ancient myths contain a kernel of truth, a truth that has been distorted over millennia of retellings. A lot of fans seems to think that the myth of Lightbringer functions as a kind of recipe to create an extra-special magical sword. However, while myths contains kernels of truth in GRRM’s universe, they are not necessarily to be read in a literal manner. I don’t think that a prophesied hero will have to kill a loved one to make a magical weapon. I suspect that the myth of Lightbringer is to be read allegorically rather than literally.
The myth of Lightbringer tells us two things about the creation of this magical blade:
There is smith craft involved - “Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires.” (ACoK, Davos I)
A blood sacrifice is involved - “Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.”
This actually dovetails nicely with what GRRM himself has said about the making of Valyrian steel:
Q: A brief question about Valyrian steel - is it the metal that makes the sword so special (provenance, age, etc), or is it the forging (spells, techniques)
GRRM: Forging techniques and spells, actually. There is magic involved in the making of Valyrian steel. (x)
If we read the myth of Lightbringer allegorically then the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa signifies what type of magic was used in the creation of Valyrian steel, i.e. blood magic.
Let’s get back to the the legend of the Last Hero. As said, Sam discovers an ancient text in the library at Castle Black that states that the Last Hero slew a White Walker with dragonsteel, i.e. a Valyrian sword. In this context, it is worth noting that in Old Nan’s retelling of the story, it is specifically mentioned that the Last Hero loses his sword during his quest:
He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. (AGoT, Bran I)
A frozen blade shattering in the cold sounds a lot like what happened to Ser Waymar Royce when he duels with a White Walker in the prologue of AGoT:
His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.
...
Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.
When the blades touched, the steel shattered.
A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. (AGoT, Prologue)
The Others bring a cold so intense that it shatters steel swords. Only a magical blade might stand a chance against their ice swords.
If the Last hero was indeed Brandon Stark, and if he did indeed wield a blade made of Valyrian steel, then it is most likely that this sword was Ice, the ancestral blade of the House he founded. If this is indeed the case, the its very name, Ice, could obliquely refer to the fact that it was used to kill a being that was essentially “Ice Made Flesh” (I’ve argued elsewhere that the text implicitly depicts the Others as beings of embodied ice).
THE HIGHTOWER
Let’s just assume that Ice was indeed the dragonsteel blade that the Last Hero (Brandon the Builder) wielded against the Others. The question remains: how did he get his hands on a blade of Valyrian steel when the Valyrian Freehold did not yet exist? In this context, it is worth noting that the myth of Lightbringer and the prophecy of Azor Ahai come again appear to originate in Asshai and not in Valyria. Maybe the secret to forge Valyrian steel wasn’t actually discovered in the Valyrian freehold but in Asshai? This is where this essay gets even more speculative.
In this section, I’ll be drawing on a four part theory that the user u/sangeli published on reddit a few years ago (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4). The gist of this theory revolves around the hypothesis that the Valyrian Dragonlords weren’t native to the Valyrian peninsula but that they were the descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which u/sangeli locates in Asshai. The chaos of the Long Night cause an Asshai’i diaspora (possibly because Asshai was ground zero of some kind of magical catastrophe that rendered the place sterile, which I’ve written about elsewhere). One of the places where the Asshai settled was the Valyrian peninsula and the companion book does offer some weight to this argument:
In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. (TWoIaF, Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria)
However, u/sangeli goes further and theorizes that some of the Asshai’i also settled in Westeros, more specifically in the location that is now known as Oldtown. It is one of the oldest, perhaps even the oldest of the cities of Westeros and its origins is lost in the mists of time. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was founded by an Asshai’i disapora but u/sangeli presents the mysterious structure of fused black stone that constitutes the foundation of the Hightower as a piece of evidence for their theory:
Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.
Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years.
Who built it? When? Why? Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite. (AWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)
The base on which the Hightower rests is made from fused black stone in an unknown technique the is eerily reminiscent of the magical arts of Valyria. Yet the architectural style of this edifice shares no similarities with the architecture of Old Valyria:
The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valyrian. (TWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)
I must admit that with evidence like this, I do find u/sangeli’s theory that the Hightower was founded by an Asshai’i disapora both interesting and convincing. As do I find their claim that House Hightower may indeed descend from these people, especially since the companion book also raises the issue of the origins of House Hightower:
The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know. (TWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)
The reason I bring up the Hightower in relation to the Last Hero and the secret of Valyrian steel, is because Brandon the Builder had a connection to the Hightower as the purported architect of its upper levels. Furthermore, the Hightower is associated with the Night’s Watch through the image of the Lighthouse as a positive image of fire - a beacon in the darkness, which I’ve written about elsewhere.
(Left: Hightower in Oldtown. Art by Ted Nasmith, Right: Sigil and Motto of House Hightower)
If we accept that there’s usually a kernel of truth in the myths and legends within GRRM’s fictional universe, then we may speculate that Brandon the Builder did indeed visit Oldtown and the mysterious fortress that forms the base of the Hightower. If u/sangeli is correct in their theory, then the people who inhabited this mysterious structure of fused black stone may have been Asshai’i refugees from the GEotD - and they may have known the secret of forging dragonsteel steel. The Hightower may indeed have been the place where Ice was forged.
All of this is, of course, highly speculative, if the Last Hero did indeed wield a blade made of Valyrian steel before the Valyrian Freehold existed, then I haven’t come across another theory as to why he would have had such a blade.
How is a king elected - Or why the endgame doesn’t make sense - Part I King Bran
So, just for the record, in case anyone suspects me of spouting Bran hate: I love all the Starks, and Bran is a wonderful character. I just have difficulty with him as King, especially as it was depicted on the show : the new government of Bran - discussing the renovation of brothels - did not strike me as overly competent or responsible.
Isaac Hempstead-Wright said in an interview, that GRRM told D&D two things about Bran’s endgame: one was Hodor and one was Bran as king. Now, of course after season 6 aired and the “Hold the door” moment went down into the show history as an iconic moment, the foreshadowing for Hodor’s death was quite obvious in hindsight. And this is how foreshadowing should work: The event happens and you realise that it had build-up and that it was hinted at several times and yet I do not think that anybody would have been able to foretell that Hodor was just short for “Hold the door”.
As for foreshadowing for Bran as King, I can think of several scenes that might play into that: Bran as acting Lord of Winterfell in Robb’s absence, as Prince of Winterfell, the Reeds pledging allegiance to Bran very solemnly, and the Little from the clans in the North who gives Bran and the Reeds food on their way north and Bran makes a promise to reward him when the times come. I would still argue that these work as well for Bran as king in the North or Lord of Winterfell.
I have not yet reread the books for “Bran as king” foreshadowing. I am convinced that I will find it, because GRRM prepares his plot-twists and his important events. I am also convinced that GRRM plans to do even more in TWOW and ADOS and he might have a whole “learning arc” planned for Bran which should go beyond the magical.
But I don’t think that Bran as King of Westeros makes sense, not at all, and here is why. It makes me at odds with the endgame that GRRM planned and I feel some reluctance about that, but I think that apart from the storytelling - which GRRM will do a lot better than the show, Bran as King will not work, and that is because of the nature of the books. It is not an ending that fits with the overall character of the books.
ASOIAF is not a “high magic” fantasy. Magical people are rare, and they are mistrusted. They do not have the social standing of the citadel-trained (read university-trained) maesters whose research is mostly based on what we nowadays call science. So, it is strange, that one of the most magical persons of Westeros would gain the Throne, when we do not see magic or even wisdom as something that is highly regarded.
I always thought that we will have a great council (the third of that kind) at the end of ASOIAF and a sort of proto-parliamentary election of the king. There are the in-world historical precedents of great councils where who should be the heir (if not the king) was decided and there is the kingsmoot on the Iron Islands and the election of the LC of the Night’s watch as precedents in the timeline of ASOIAF. I do think it stands to reason that at the end of many wars, the lords will decide on a new king. It is not that unusual after the chaos and destruction of war. It is not that unusual if trust in the king has to be re-established. It is not unusual to renew the 'treaty' between king and nobles about good government. It happened in real history after all.
So, a royal election has been foreshadowed and still I think it makes no sense, that they would choose Bran. The example of the Kingsmoot shows what people do value in a king: It is not age, nor is it the wisdom and the restriction that Asha/Yara proposes in the face of Winter is not well received. The Ironborn choose a warrior king who promises them plunder and riches.
Let's look at royal elections in real history in a medieval setting. These came to pass if a dynasty died out, or was not seen as fit anymore or if there was doubt about who the heir should be if there was no son. I can think of several but for now I just stick to Stephen of Blois from England, Konrad II from Germany and Hugh Capet from France. All these men were elected because they were grown men who had proved themselves in war, who had wives and sons who were from important noble families. The Lords who chose them opted for a known experienced person who could guarantee the stability of a new dynasty. It is just not realistic that an assembly called together to elect a king would choose a child with no military experience, without wife and children. Because this is not a king that any medieval noble would choose. Just as an aside: all these Kings made promises to rule well before they were elected and promised on particular to be different than their predecessors.
GRRM knows all this. He talks about the importance of military success, the production of heirs and the respect people have for fighters all the time.
So, if GRRM wants to set up a scenario where Bran is chosen, I think he would have to upgrade the importance of magic considerably and/or he would have to eliminate almost every grown man from the great houses (which is not entirely unlikely) and/or he would have to increase the chaos in such a way that by the end of ASOIAF almost everything looks like a valid alternative and/ or the noble lifestyle of waging war would have to be that compromised that it looked like a good idea to abolish that and/or he would have to ignore claims by other contestants who are actually related to the last kings meaning no Baratheon or Targ claimant (safe maybe Jon - I'll return to that). So, GRRM would have to stretch the fabric of his tale to such a degree that it would not be 'realistic' any more, not in the way ASOIAF usually close to historical reality in the sense of being a very 'low magic' world.
In addition it is not even that realistic that Jon would not be a candidate. He has a claim, he is a military commander and might still get children. You could argue that killing Dany put him out of the field, but that is not necessarily so: the person who killed a tyrant in ancient Greece usually profited from the killing. Since Dany was not crowned, Jon could be defended by claiming that he fought for his own claim against an usurper who robbed him of his birth right. Of course we do not know how this will play out in the books.
Look, I'm not against Bran on the Throne, not per se and not before I have seen how GRRM builds up to it in the books, but as the situation is now at the end of ADWD I do not think it makes sense, and I do not think it is a development that fits well into the overall world-building of ASOIAF. Bran is not a realistic candidate and neither the elections we have seen in the books nor the great councils nor royal elections in European history point to a suddenly likely scenario of a 'wise wizard' being chosen as King. Bran as king defies the world-building and in- world precedences. It is too magical for ASOIAF.
Another thing I do not understand is what is Bran's own agenda in this? Does he want to push for reform in Westeros? Does he want to make sure that Targs will never come again? Does he want to punish Jon for some crime we haven't seen yet? Is this some sort of cosmic revenge for Aegon the Conqueror forcing Torrhen to kneel? Why? Because the sins of the fathers have to be punished in the descendants? When Jon is not like Aegon? Does Bran become indifferent to Jon whom he loves in the books?
The only scenario I could think of is if the ambitious Bloodraven - who is far more sinister in the books than on the show - somehow orchestrates the whole thing: getting hold of Bran and maneuvering him and others toward Bran's kingship is something he probably would do. But that would mean that about the only positive thing that I can see in Bran's coronation (definitely no Targ restoration) would not be true.... And that would not qualify as 'bittersweet' either. That would definitely be creepy. That would be a for too sinister ending. Everyone in the grip of Bloodraven who watches the kingdoms with a thousand eyes and one. *shudder*
One of the things that I want to see addressed when Dany makes it to Westeros is not only the Others/slavery parallel, but the fact that slavery still goes on in Westeros, albeit unofficially. We know she knows this because of what happened with Jorah, and we know from that that slavery is punished in Westeros, but, like the real middle ages (and today) just because slavery is illegal does not mean it doesn't happen and isn't a problem. Tyrion saying early on in the books, with absolute conviction, that he could have been sold to slavers as a child means that slavery is more prominent (and that the ruling nobles are more aware of it) than we might want to believe because of people like Ned Stark.
Best Asoiaf meta podcast ever. Well written, good analysis, fanatic audio and every episode is just relaxing AF. They make work go by faster. Need more. But it's so well done I understand why they don't make more episodes, don't want to loose quality in exchange for quantity.
