#claude discourse

[problematic-fodlan]

What white nonsense is this. Claude has bigger ambitions than any of the white leads and is the only person in the room even seriously thinking about the world outside of Fodlan, but sure he's irrelevant.

Next we're going to hear again that Edelgard somehow cares about racism more than Claude. Just say you hate brown people and go.

-

[hauntedaeon]

If I see in 2025 one more person being mean to someone else because “Edelgard was right!” “Dimitri was right!” Or “Rhea was right!” I’m going to lose my damn mind. All of them are some degree of fucked up and there’s no 100% best choice. Even Claude is very morally questionable sometimes. All the lords + Rhea are complex characters with both positive admirable traits and huge flaws and that’s one of the things to me that makes 3h so great to me and gives it such staying power. None of them are fully right and none of them (including Rhea) are fully wrong. Discussion about them is very useful as all have their points and it sucks when people just start insulting other fans for who they like. In 2025 let’s have more meaningful discussion about the game we all like and less petty insults and name calling!

(Edits made)

[faroreswinds]

is GW's direction really that crazy when you think about it? feels more like people are just salty that Claude didn't team up with their faves on his route because people look at Claude as a third party that validates their side. But what I saw in Hopes fit what I thought about Claude from Houses Claude does whatever he feels most benefits his goals at the moment regardless of morals. He teams up with Faerghus when he feels it benefits him most, he teams up with the Church when he feels it benefits him most, he teams up with the Empire when he feels it benefits him most and he throws his allies to the dogs when he feels it benefits him most. Like in Houses, Claude tells Dimi before leaving in Azure Moon that this is how he operates and that he only makes moves that he thinks benefit him. That's the story trying to communicate how Claude and Dimi are different. Do fans think he's just trying to be cute or that his words mean nothing? Claude's not a man of rigid principles, he's an opportunist. He, the other characters and supplementary material repeat that same message about him over and over again too. like Claude's not supposed to be a uniformly kind person, he's friendly and pleasant to talk to but someone that can be amoral or moral depending on the circumstances. And in GW, an alliance with Edelgard was more personally beneficial to him than trying to team up with Faerghus. They have the bigger force, they're paying Leicester significant reparations, they're getting stability at his southern border and they want to eliminate the same threat.

I mean.... It kinda is a crazy direction.

The issue isn't just the differences between Hopes!Claude and Houses!Claude. That could be a whole other explanation on its own, but since you have framed it as in-character, let's go over the other reason why it is a poor direction on its own.

The biggest issue, anon, is that Hopes!Claude... is an idiot.

Nothing he does or says makes much sense when you add up all the worldbuilding elements together into one big pile.

For example, he decides to side with Edelgard and wipe out the Church. He believes this will end the war quicker, and remove Edelgard's justification for war. And if that justification is gone, then Edelgard will have no choice but to cease her aggressions, or else the war is no longer justified.

However, this logic ignores sooooo many things. The first is that Edelgard publicly declares that the Kingdom and Alliance are false nations that only exist due to meddling forces. That should be a red flag right there and then. Not only that, but Edelgard invaded his nation and beelined for the capital. That should have been another red flag. If Edelgard didn't wish to take over the Alliance, she would have had no need to go for the throat.

Claude even admits that Edelgard might not stop her war. He should know that someone may not stop a war just because it is no longer "justified". And yet, he continues to side with her.

Here is another one. Claude puts a lot of blame on the Church for... basically everything wrong with Foldan. Forced marriages. Fierce border protections. The existence of nobility. The lack of freedom for nobles. I mean, just everything and anything you can think of, in his eyes it is the fault of Rhea and her Church.

But how can he come to that conclusion? Does he live under a rock? Is he not the leader of the Alliance? Does he not know that Edmund, within his own Alliance territory, makes trades with other nations outside of Foldan? When he went to school, did he not see how people of Duscur, Brigid, and Almyra got places in the classroom? How a woman from overseas got to be a Knight of Seiros? Even if he only spent two weeks there, surely he saw something, no?

He is also a prince of another nation. A nation with no Church, and no Crests. And they still have a King and nobility of their own. So why is he blaming the Church for such things? He literally is from another nation.

Hopes!Claude feels like he was written by a young author who is just starting out. There is no logic to his thinking. He just hates the Church because the writers needed him to.

And what makes it worse is that Claude is supposed to be the smart one. He is lauded as the brilliant tactician. The guy who thinks 5 steps ahead in every chess match. But he comes across as the most ignorant of the three lords, who cannot see past his own nose.

So yes, this is why is it a crazy direction. It's not just because of any misalignment of his character from Houses. It's because within Hopes itself, Claude is just a moron that it is hard to take him and his thought processes seriously.

[raxistaicho]

Who GW Claude really is

Spoilers!

As we’ve seen by now, certain people - mostly Edelgard detractors - are raising a gigantic stink over the way Claude is portrayed in Golden Wildfire. I believe this is the result of three year’s worth of a misunderstanding of who Claude is being brought crashing down.

As I said in a few months-old post of mine, Claude is not an ally of Dimitri or the Church except when convenient;

So what of Azure Moon? That’s Claude at a desperate moment, and it’s not Dimitri Claude trusts, but Byleth. Similar to Edelgard, Claude seems to naturally want to trust Byleth regardless of route. This is most notable in Azure Moon and Crimson Flower, where Claude yields to the side Byleth has chosen.

But the route where the misconception that Claude and Dimitri would work together is most obviously expressed as false is Crimson Flower, where Dimitri is available for an entire five years for Claude to conclude an alliance with, and yet he doesn’t. Claude does not actively assist Dimitri or Rhea in toppling Edelgard; he instead feigns neutrality with the intention of playing kingmaker.

So what does this have to do with Golden Wildfire Claude? Well, he’s essentially Crimson Flower Claude but playable. Who was Crimson Flower Claude? He was a person stuck in the unenviable position of commanding the weakest country and caught in the middle of a war between two powers he simultaneously didn’t want to win.

In the other three routes, he’s only able to soften up to the Church of Serios,

because he has faith that Byleth can curtail in the worst aspects of it. This is true no matter the route; Byleth simply has a magnetic effect on all three Lords, regardless of the route. See how Dimitri pleads to know why Byleth sided with Edelgard in Crimson Flower.

Conversely, he understands - and he expresses this in his support with Edelgard in Hopes - that if she crushes the Kingdom - which she intends to do because it’s too interwoven with the Central Church to leave as-is - then she’ll be in a position to do whatever she likes with the Alliance, and Claude needs the Alliance to be strong, as it’s his only source of influence in Fodlan. Without it, he can’t fulfill his ambitions.

Of course, he does end up losing in the end, so he’s forced to cut his losses and leave (and this is a post for the future, but he seems more at-ease giving Edelgard his goodbye than he does Dimitri).

But in Golden Wildfire, Byleth is on neither side. He wants neither Edelgard nor Rhea to win. Edelgard will conquer the Alliance, as I discussed earlier, and Rhea will come down hard on the Empire and expand the power of the Central Church. Neither of these results are something he wants.

Therefor, he, being the person in control of the weakest nation, has to essentially stalemate the war by taking out the Central Church with the Kingdom intact. That way, the Kingdom remains as a buffer against the Empire, but the Central Church can’t further its power. This is also congruent with his nature as someone who tries to find the least-bloody way that he can,

But naturally, in two routes this doesn’t work and he’s forced to just cut his losses and hope for the best by siding with the stronger power. This is different from Three Houses, where he’ll take the weaker side of the war, because Claude’s willing to take a gamble when the chips are down and he’d rather whichever side Byleth chose wins than allow Edelgard without Byleth to win. If he has to choose between Edelgard without Byleth and Rhea without Byleth, he’s essentially being forced to choose between two equally bad outcomes, so he just chooses whoever seems most-likely to guarantee his survival so he can try to make something work in the aftermath.

So yeah, people who perceived Claude as someone who would side with Dimitri or the Church when it came down to it misread him. Just like Edelgard and Dimitri, he’s someone who wants to do things his own way, and he can only do that in a world where those two don’t win. Though, that said, he does seem more amenable to choosing Edelgard over Rhea, for understandable reasons; their ideals are fairly similar in ways.

[dragongutsixofficial]

Me when people who disagree in the fandom actually exchange respectfully instead of being at each other's throats:

[microlm]

“Fodlan’s insular culture” as proven by…Shamir being one of Rhea’s top officials, Petra and Dedue attending the academy, AG’s Sreng and Duscur paralogues, Adrestia and Leicester having warm water ports they use extensively for trade with outside nations? Almyra pillaging for funsies, Nader talking about looting Faerghus to bring home “souvenirs?” The Western Church (closest to Adrestia btw) hating the Central Church because they’re mad that Rhea isn’t racist? Hopes Claude is a selfish, opportunistic weathervane rewritten to make waifu emperor not look so bad in comparison, don’t insult our intelligence by trying to make excuses for the story butchering him and Almyra. Good luck trying to pin that as Byleth’s fault too when Byleth opposes waifu emperor on 3/4 routes in Houses and Claude not being swayed by them or Ms Emperor, and by the fact that not recruiting Byleth on SB has them persuading Claude of Edelgard’s bad intentions.

Rhea literally did nothing wrong, Claude is just a character the devs didn’t really give a shit about and wrote poorly in one game to save time and wrote poorly in another to deflect from their waifu character’s bad actions.

Some of this I'm going to just copy & paste what I've written elsewhere because...I already wrote it so might as well reuse it!

“Fodlan’s insular culture” as proven by…Shamir being one of Rhea’s top officials, Petra and Dedue attending the academy,

"Tokens and exceptions are not proper rebuttals to things that are stated to be systemic issues. Rhea the individual may hire foreigners, but Rhea the archbishop isn’t exactly attempting to improve things overall for all foreigners, because again, Lorenz directly cites the church as a reason why they should reject contact with foreigners. Claude directly sites the church as being the reason why official diplomatic channels were never established with foreign nations, and Dimitri does not disagree. Edelgard directly states that the Central Church was used to uphold colonization of Duscur and Sreng. And outside of Cyril or Shamir who are under Rhea’s employ, the only foreigners we see outside of the literal underground slums are people hiding their backgrounds, political prisoners, or people who were colonized by Faerghus."

AG’s Sreng and Duscur paralogues. Adrestia and Leicester having warm water ports they use extensively for trade with outside nations?

Sometimes insular policies still have trade at the ports, while limiting what is allowed in. See japan under the sakoku policy. It doesn't change the fact that apparently no official diplomatic channels exist. Also the existence of conflict and the taking of land while expelling/slaughtering it's original inhabitants isn't exactly something you want to use as a positive example of good international relations.

Almyra pillaging for funsies, Nader talking about looting Faerghus to bring home “souvenirs?”

Indeed, I have always had a problem with IS' onesided portrayal of Fodlan's conflicts with the outside. There's hints that there's something deeper and more nuance--like Sreng having it's southern half taken, both of Cyril's parents dying, Brigid being invaded by Adrestia first historically--but there is never enough focus on those perspectives. And 3Hopes' made it worse with regards to Almyra, and I can't say I'm too fond of some other choices they made regarding Sreng. But that's probably not what you're here to discuss.

The Western Church (closest to Adrestia btw) hating the Central Church because they’re mad that Rhea isn’t racist?

Yeah, the western church does suck! I hope Dimitri goes through with making a northern church in GW.

Hopes Claude is a selfish, opportunistic weathervane rewritten to make waifu emperor not look so bad in comparison, don’t insult our intelligence by trying to make excuses for the story butchering him and Almyra. Good luck trying to pin that as Byleth’s fault too when Byleth opposes waifu emperor on 3/4 routes in Houses and Claude not being swayed by them or Ms Emperor, and by the fact that not recruiting Byleth on SB has them persuading Claude of Edelgard’s bad intentions.

I think the story does him and Almyra wrong in a lot of ways, I just don't agree with where it does him wrong and where the emphasis of those critiques lie. I've never blamed Byleth for anything?? "Claude doesn’t look to Byleth to see whether or not he should attack Rhea, but Claude having Byleth as an ally means that he has a direct line to the new archbishop of the Central Church to change its current doctrines. In VW, he doesn’t mind joining with the weakened Central Church because Rhea has already been deposed, and the one who now heads the church agrees with his ideals. In CF, Rhea is still in power, so he doesn’t join with Faerghus.

However, Byleth choosing to attack Rhea doesn’t move him to attack Rhea because in the war, Rhea is only one side of the equation--the other side is Edelgard wanting to conquer the continent. Byleth’s decisions alone don’t move Claude, and that’s a misrepresentation of what Byleth being his ally actually means for Claude."

And I enjoyed Claude's betrayal in SB! In SB he didn't hold any cards because he was defeated in his initial attempt to hold ground, unlike GW. As a result, he is unable to solidify the Alliance as a united entity to push back against the Empire, losing both Ordelia and Gloucestor as Imperial vassals in the process. Lorenz even chooses to neglect his own responsibilities as an Alliance noble in favor of currying favor wit the Empire. Claude can't use Edelgard and freely manuever as much in SB. But there was never a sense that it was an entirely willing process, Claude even says it was under duress. That's why Byleth being a military trump card also against Edelgard gave him the push he needed to openly push back against her. That's kind of what Byleth tends to be: a card that can be used for his goals (and a friend but like let's not pretend he's not also using them). But also keep in mind, that he is also against the Kingdom and the Church in this betrayal scenario, so even there he is displaying that he is his own faction. He's neither fully allied with Dimitri or Edelgard or Rhea. His flexibility is my favorite quality of his.

[speeedyquick1245]

Me and Dimitri when GW Claude says that the Church forbids all interactions with countries outside of Fodlan when his dad, the king of the most devout nation in Fodlan, died visiting Duscar which is outside of fodlan: 

Like maybe it is true but tbh for such a major justification to Claude’s actions in GW there’s not really much world building to support. I just really wasn’t sure at all like Marianne in the end. I feel like it would have been more interesting if Dimitri actually said anything to debunk some of Claude’s arguments cause like just with what we know it doesn’t make sense.

[jeweled-blue-eyes]

Hey do you think that Felix kinda gaslighted Athanasia into giving Claude a chance since she was five? Like why is he encouraging this relationship with he knows that Claude abandoned her on purpose and he witnessed him almost kill her? And he was relying on her to "fix" Claude as if he was misunderstood.

And lily too, both kept pushing this idea onto Athanasia when she knew otherwise. I think this might have influence her decision in going back to him when Jennette had suggested she'd go.

I wouldn't call this gaslighting but his support of their relationship definitely influenced her decision to give Claude another chance. It's almost as if Felix cared more about Claude than Athy. Claude has done lots of things that Felix has been ignoring: torturing people, killing the concubines, killing his marriage candidates, killing a marquis for an alleged intimacy with the neighbouring Castorea (Side Story: I Became a Father One Day) threatening to kill others for daring to be annoying or boring. Sometimes Felix objects weakly but then Claude tells him to shut up and he does. Amazing that he doesn’t dare to go against Claude but expects it from child! Athy. Don’t get me wrong I like Felix but the fact that he let LP Athy be executed without a proper investigation and Lily killed alongside her leaves a bitter taste in my mouth especially when the manhwa lowkey ships Felix/Lily.

You could interpret it that way that Felix' top priority wasn't Athy reuniting with her family and having a healthy relationship with them but her healing the bruise Diana left on Claude's heart and the family thing was just a method to achieve that. In the Lovely Princess he was content with Jennette "healing" Claude and didn't make any big attempts to mediate between Claude and LP Athy although he was sad about the treatment she received. In the end it didn't matter who was fixing him.

This makes Felix look morally grey but c'mon the only other explanation I have is that he's stupidly naive which also doesn't fit with his Knight of Crimson blood persona. As Claude's guard and advisor he should be capable of recognizing a person's true nature. Claude never bothered to hide his ugly side from him. In LP Athy's own words Claude has always been cruelly honest from the start. Felix is just that devoted to his master. He was willing to risk Athy’s life to improve Claude’s well-being.

As for Lily: inconsistent character. No one in their right mind would want the child they raised in the same room as the man who murdered a dozen women in cold blood. Felix was friends with Claude and saw him in a good light but Lily was never that close to Claude. She has the worst impression of him, he kills everyone in the Ruby Palace, dumps a child on her and tells her if ever word about it gets out he kills everyone there, and then he appears again wants to play daddy and suddenly attempts to kill his daughter again lol wtf.

If Athy had a support system from the start that wouldn't encourage her to go back to her abuser she wouldn't have gone. Lucas offering to kill Claude doesn't count, he's basically Claude 02 anyway. Everyone she cared about is connected to Claude. If she was losing Claude she was going to lose the others too.