💬 0 🔁 5 ❤️ 6 · I’d also love to know, if there are any psychological videos or studies about how "therapeutic" it actually is to stab your
I agree with @eden-demon, @ironflower99, and @ashofdeadempires.
And, believe it or not, this “game” can be played by two people.
For all the “ark of redemption” lovers:
In the present study, we looked at the relationships between the Dark Triad (i.e., Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy) and (i) em
A quote directly from the Introduction:
“One of the suggestions is that individuals high in the Dark Triad may understand the feelings that other individuals have (i.e., have cognitive empathy), but they don't show an appropriate emotional response to emotion-evoking stimulus (i.e., lack affective empathy; e.g., Wai & Tiliopoulos, 2012).”
Affective empathy is emotional resonance; it is the ability to physically and emotionally sense the feelings of a loved one, to be “infected” by their state, and to experience their pain as one’s own. It is based on the activity of mirror neurons, which activate the same brain regions (the insula and the anterior cingulate cortex) as when one experiences pain oneself. In short, this is the thing that prevents one from “enjoying” the UA path, and a player with developed affective empathy will feel bad while playing through this game variant (I’m not referring to myself here, though I also felt particularly bad about it; there are a certain number of people who feel the same way, and I’ve spoken with them).
“In the current research, we were interested in the Dark Triad with respect to appropriateness of emotional response to sad, fearful, or happy stimulus. Previous studies have found that especially Machiavellianism and psychopathy have an association with schadenfreude, feeling happy about other's misfortune (Porter, Bhanwer, Woodworth, & Black, 2014). Further, narcissism relates to feeling positive when viewing sad faces, and psychopathy to feeling positive when viewing fearful faces (Wai & Tiliopoulos, 2012).”
But according to this study, the narcissists understand perfectly well just how sweet it can be when Astarion is feeling bitterness.
And the psychopaths felt positive about it:
(Photo of Tav from the petition against the prelude to the sadistic porn from patch 6)
Feeling positive? Oh, right—it’s just a game; the character isn’t real, and blah, blah, blah. Of course. But academic journals are publishing articles about this. So, are we going to apply psychology to games or not?
Of course, “I don’t understand drama.” Not entirely—I do understand it when it’s a passive medium, like a movie or a book, that doesn’t require any active participation on my part in creating that “drama” in the life of the character I care about most. And, most importantly, how do we distinguish a lover of tragedy from a narcissist or a psychopath if they enjoy the same things? If we have studies showing that an abuser might believe they love you, and this allows us to label a fictional character an “abuser” (actually, the video isn’t about Astarion, but there’s a lot of interesting stuff in it—we’ll look at that later), then there are also specific scientific psychiatric studies showing that narcissists should like the UA path, and psychopaths—the 6 patch. Let’s be consistent in all cases, then.
Yes, of course, as I was advised, I watched this video:
That's an interesting video, thanks. I found a few really interesting points in it. Let's look at how they apply to game characters (including Tav and possible dialogue options and actions—or inactions that could be interpreted as neglect).
“People in loveless relationships are indeed at the highest risk of intimate partner violence (*some abusers ascend Astarion just to ‘kick him in the balls’). So when there is this uh stereotype of the abusive relationship as cold and detached, without care or empathy (*Tav’s behavior in the dock scene and, in general, their absolute calm and indifference to the fact that Astarion will never see the sun again and will suffer from hunger), there is some truth to that.” (time: 4.26)
So, in the game, Astarion may fall victim to a new abuser who will act violently toward him, and he may also find himself in a “relationship that is cold and detached, lacking care or empathy.”
“But the surprising thing is that people in high passion relationships who lack the other two components of love, intimacy and commitment, are also at risk. So a huge red flag is any sort of relationship where you have very high passion, low commitment and low intimacy because those types of relationships are ultimately just I want you (*I want your body) without the other two components of loving someone.”(4.43)
And it’s very interesting that in the video, the author talks specifically about this creature from a fanfic by an additional writer, which they tried to force upon us instead of our roleplay. Earlier in the video, Dr. Ana discussed the three key components of love: intimacy, commitment, and passion (which includes sexual attraction, and it is precisely this notion of “you’re ascend him for the sake of sex” that could only have been born in the imagination of someone creating a self-insert/perceiving the audience as a character capable only of this type of attachment, without the capacity for intimacy and commitment).
(The Triangular Theory of Love by American psychologist Robert J. Sternberg)
“Cuz if you don’t want to commit to someone, you don’t really care about keeping them around long-term (*“Your Tav wants to break up,” “You won’t be able to break up with him”—doesn’t that ring a bell?) and you also don’t care about connecting with them. You just want them. Do you actually really love them? The researcher said, “Contrary to popular belief, love does not serve as an inherent buffer against psychological violence.” But I would argue that this type of love isn’t really love. It doesn’t have the three components of love.” (5.18)
Yes. Exactly. That’s why the roleplay options available to players in romantic relationships with Astarion in BG3 are so poor. Despite players’ requests, we don’t have any lines that could express intimacy and commitment. Moreover, anti-AA's have constantly tried to impose as “canon” for Tav precisely a psychopathic narcissist incapable of such things, but capable of killing Astarion (the most terrifying outcome of a relationship with an abuser, and it's no surprise that a relationship with their Tav could end this way). A character who possesses intimacy and commitment, and who will have all the corresponding lines after the epilogue—when “authorial control” over them is impossible—must not exist in their fanfic. Maybe we’re just unlucky that hookup culture propaganda runs through all the romance in BG3? This topic is covered quite well later in the video:
“I simply cannot help but wonder about the implications regarding hookup culture. So often casual relationships follow the formula. High passion, low commitment, low intimacy. In fact, there are even therapists out there who encourage people to emotionally disconnect from their casual partners, to not share their inner worlds with each other at all, to treat the other person as nothing but a sex object.”(6.15)
High passion, low commitment, low intimacy—that’s exactly that attitude expected from BG3 players toward their LI, and the game has everything you need for that kind of roleplay. You can force a person with sexual trauma to participate in an orgy, you can have sex with Halsin and get forced “consent” from Astarion. And then there’s the Illithid, Mizora, and so on. And the bear that everyone remembers. Fanfiction and comics featuring Tav-whores who fuck Halsin right in front of AA and end up choosing Halsin fit perfectly into this storyline. In the game, there’s no way to hug and gently kiss your loved one without mods; there isn’t even a simple line like “I love you.” On the other hand, it’s practically impossible to escape the imposition that you “treat the other person as nothing but a sex object.”
“No. Nothing like no like being like, "Oh, tell me how you feel so I can give you some support." Literally no feelings. Literally no feelings. Yeah. There's no caretaking happening. You don't give a how they feel. They have other people for that. Exactly. Exactly. You're just there for that dick. Okay. Wait, I've got a good one. Okay. Have a few. Have a few. Don't just have one. Exactly. Be safe. Be smart.”(7.15) – Thank you, Dr. Ana; I really enjoyed your video. This quote perfectly captures why I’ve always wanted to “pull” Astarion out of BG3 and play with him—and his personality—in another game where I don’t feel sickened by the way romantic relationships are portrayed and the dialogue and action options available to the PC.
“If you cut out the intimacy component, too, and treat that person worse than you would treat any friend (*that’s exactly how they treat Astarion—worse than all those “good companions”—worrying about how he perceives these pseudo-“friends” and what they say about him; these strangers must be more important than he is), just acting like you completely don’t care what’s going on in their inner world, in their life—you just completely disregard all of that. You’re putting people at risk of the second most common type of abuse, the type where the abuser wants you, but doesn’t actually care about you beyond that. (*a creature from the author’s fanfiction). And now we have empirical evidence of how dangerous this type of recommendation actually is.” (8.08)
“I just keep wondering if there’s ever going to be any accountability for the mental health professionals who keep pushing hookup culture on us, even though research consistently shows its risks.” (8.32) – It would be good to say this about those who are allowed to write game scenarios; after all, we’re adults, so we can kind of ignore all those “mental health professionals who keep pushing hookup culture,” but we just can’t seem to get rid of the “Discord shitposting hall.”
So, what was our poor Astarion dealing with, given his trauma? – “The type where the abuser wants you, but doesn't actually care about you beyond that.” Is that Tav from their fanfic?
“Or another way of looking at it is: no, abusers don’t love their victims. They just want them.” – This isn’t about Astarion (Astarion loves Tav, as even his hormones—which Tav-Illithid can sense—prove). Is this their Tav again?
Why did they keep trying to apply this “sexualization” to us (“Say it’s hot. Say it’s attractive…”) And all that other bullshit about “power dynamics” (in Welch’s fantasies, and in the fact that Tav is submissive by script, with no other lines, and a degradation check that even breaks the game’s check mechanics) and “control.” Why did they turn this nonsense into “canon,” where the player (!) is portrayed as sexually obsessed, and present this as “the truth”? Let’s watch another video from an expert; maybe it will shed some additional light on the situation:
Yes, narcissists always make YOU out to be the source of the problem.
“Why is it that victims of narcissistic abuse either end up thinking they’re the abuser or that no one will believe them?” (beginning of the video) – Astarion is, of course, a fictional character, but they managed to portray him as an “abuser,” and his lines in the game and the many proofs of his love are not to be believed; instead, players are supposed to believe their “vision” of his storyline.
“So, let's look at what a narcissist really is. A narcissist is someone who believes that they're special. They think they're better than everyone, even if they don't actually come out and say it. You'll see it in their actions and how they treat people and they really don't care about other people's feelings, especially when those feelings are inconvenient for them.”(0.16) – Yeah, they’re special. Their Tav, who insults Astarion by comparing him to Cazador, is special—because whatever they blurt out is the truth. If someone gets angry at their stupidity and malice, if Astarion reacts with rage to a trigger insult, that means they’re right. If they believe that “This power will trap you, just like it trapped Cazador,” then who cares what you think or what you actually want—they’re special, after all. They can abuse the victim. They’re special. Just don’t spoil the fun and highlight how bad Astarion has it next to such a “special” person on the UA path, because “those feelings are inconvenient for them.”
“So, how do narcissists make you look like the bad guy or feel like the bad guy? Well, the reason why you might feel like the bad guy is because narcissists don't always show their true colors.”(1.35) Masters of virtue signaling in the purity culture. They love seeing Astarion endeavor to please them. If Astarion won’t let them make him into a victim, then that’s it—he’s “Cazador 2.0,” the “bad guy.”
“So, another reason narcissists make you feel like you're the problem is because they're very quick to shame you. Narcissists have a hard time dealing with their own shame, and they have a lot of it. And so whenever someone struggles to deal with parts of themselves—with aspects of themselves—they're almost always going to judge other people for those same things. So if they have trouble facing shame, they’re going to put it on you and make sure that you face your own shame. It’s a form of projection that narcissists are really good at.” (2.41)—don’t you think this sounds a lot like the answer to why: “it’s very much admitting that you failed to think of him beyond a sex object, and care about more than that”?
“A narcissist will see you as all good or all bad. They have a very black and white way of viewing the world and the people in their lives.”(3.40) – Black-and-white thinking, the dichotomy of Astarion. Either he’s the “good” UA, the “better version,” “ready to fix himself,” or the “villain” AA, whom they hate. To be honest, after watching this video, it became much clearer to me how this nonsense about AA and UA being two different people could have even come about. After all, from a logical standpoint, it’s idiotic—it doesn’t happen that way. It’s not just unrealistic; it’s, well… stupid. People don’t split into “good” and “evil” twins; people can behave differently in different circumstances. But it seems that, for a “very black-and-white way of viewing,” a person really can be either “evil” or “good,” and Astarion must split into two different people.
“So, if you do something that they do not approve of, or maybe it's something that's objectively not great and you don't even approve of it, but they're going to make sure that you feel as bad as you possibly can about it because in that moment, you are all bad. They're not really capable of seeing you as a person who made a little mistake. In that moment, your mistake defines you and they're going to make sure that you feel that.”(3.50) – Astarion raised his voice in response to the insult—he’s “evil,” he’s “all bad,” he’s “toxic,” and right now he’s not feeding the narcissist’s ego with approval.
“And if you're somebody who's insecure and if you're somebody who does carry around some shame, this is going to hit pretty deep and you're going to really internalize that external shaming of you and take on that shame. So regardless of what the other person does or their role in anything that happened, the shame makes you want to retreat and makes you beat yourself up. And that's exactly what it's designed to do.”(4.17) - Ascended Astarion, without the romance, shows significant progress in healing his trauma; he doesn’t react to the narcissist’s attempts to hurt him by comparing him to his tormentor, and confidently replies: “No, I’m better than he ever was.” “I’ve marched forward into my beautiful new future. It’s a pity you couldn’t keep up.” Unfortunately, a romantic relationship with a narcissist is truly a tragedy for someone with PTSD and trauma-related self-doubt like Astarion’s. Because of his insecurity and idealization of his partner, Astarion will be unable to recognize “what the other person does or their role in anything that happened,” and will try to keep that partner close to him. Toxic relationships with AA are, of course, possible when Tav behaves like a narcissist/abuser. And if Astarion’s relationship with them is toxic, that does not at all mean that a loving and understanding partner will have the same relationship with Astarion as a narcissist does.
But I think this clip from the video (11:30) is worth printing out and framing. Please just read or listen to the psychotherapist in the video. It explains everything—how they portray Astarion as an abuser, and even how it’s done in terms of the script. We’ve probably all noticed how many disgusting lines there are for Tav in AA’s romance. It’s not only the comparison with Cazador. While there are few lines in the game that are even remotely suitable for roleplay, there are plenty of options for insulting him and causing him pain:
“Now we're going to talk about reactive abuse. And this happens very often with narcissists. So what they'll do to paint the picture that you are the problem is that they will pull the strings behind the scenes and maybe get you to explode in anger or to act in a way that you're not proud of in front of other people. And this paints the picture that you are the abusive person when really the other person is behind the scenes pulling the strings and they know exactly what they're doing and they are purposely getting you to react in a certain way in front of other people. So they will bait you into arguments or they'll bait you into a reaction. They'll talk about something that they know is triggering to you or they'll act in a way that they know is triggering to you. Maybe they'll act in a way that's exceptionally insensitive. And that's been a hot button issue in your relationship.”
And if we apply a psychiatric lens to gaming, this is a true red flag. Those who have tried to frame Astarion’s romance as a story of “abuse”—the same people, incidentally, who use these same tactics in fandom debates to push this narrative. “And this paints the picture that you are the abusive person when really the other person is behind the scenes pulling the strings and they know exactly what they're doing and they are purposely getting you to react in a certain way in front of other people.” – that’s what the additional author did to Astarion, which is why there’s this sense of the script being on rails, since they wrote the lines for Tav. And this is what the anti-AA crowd does to Astarion in this fandom.
“A narcissist, especially a covert narcissist, is pretty good at playing the perpetual victim when it's convenient for them.” <…> “So if a narcissist can get a group of people to feel sorry for them and to feel like they are being abused by you and then that pity turns into abuse, right?”(14.09)
Right. First—oh, my poor Tav, how Astarion yelled at Tav when she told him he was like a Cazador. Oh, just look at my poor Tav’s face. Then—I’d been waiting so long to kill him, to seize the Brain, and to bring the former slave to his knees. Some people wrote that they’d been waiting six months to do that.
“So the other people start acting in ways that is abusive to you because they think you deserve it. That is fuel for a narcissist. So they will play the perpetual victim as long as it's benefiting them and fueling their need for supply. So this is when you'll see the smear campaign come in. And those people who end up acting in ways that are abusive to you, those people who absolutely will not even try to understand your perspective. That's what we call the narcissist's flying monkeys.” (14.38)
I highly recommend watching the entire video about narcissists—it might come in handy in real life—but in this post, I’ve set out to apply real-world psychology to a fictional character. It could certainly be an interesting exercise. But, of course, this is just a game; games have no connection to reality, and anything goes in a game. However, if we add a new level to the game by applying real psychology to it, please don’t fall for everyone and anyone who tries to manipulate you with psychotherapeutic terms. Dig deeper on your own, learn more, so you don’t become what are called “narcissist’s flying monkeys.”
love it when you have been chronically stressed in an unhealthy and abusive environment for so many years that it just feels like your nerves and nervous system is all made up of live wires
just permanently in fight or flight all the time
the damage runs so deep idk if I'll ever fully recover
Let me preface this by saying I will not allow any Octavia slander or victim-blaming for Stolas. Octavia is a child and Stolas is surviving domestic violence. It’s an on-site block if I see that nonsense.
Having said that
Going off my own experiences watching my parents, I always knew something was…off. I couldn’t place it. I couldn’t name it. I was too young to understand the concept of abuse. My parents were married. They loved each other…right?
Unlike Stella and Stolas, my parents actually had loved each other at some point. But that didn’t change the fact that my earliest memories are of extreme stress, living in tension I didn’t cause but felt it was my job to fix. If I couldn’t fix it, I needed to avoid it.
Octavia seems to go the avoiding route. She plays music whenever she can, she tries to stay out of her parents’ way, and she doesn’t react at all to her mom throwing her dad’s plants around or screaming while tossing their butler at him.
Stella, by abusing Stolas, is also abusing Octavia. How do you think that affects her? Even if Stolas and Stella keep the worst of it away from her, she’s still hearing her mother use racist, degrading language towards her father and seeing Stella be violent with his things. She’s still learning that that’s an acceptable response to stress. Having a parent lose their shit at you for the simplest of things also dysregulates your nervous system. Chronic yelling is abusive because it puts you into fight/flight/freeze mode 24/7. That’s going to wreak havoc on your mind and body. Octavia has learned to keep her head down and stay invisible so she doesn’t have to deal with it (as is not her job. The abuser is always 100% at fault for the abuse. It’s also not a child’s job to protect a parent).
We also know she had nightmares as a kid of Stolas vanishing. I’ve seen speculation that this is her powers manifesting and I don’t disagree- this is a fantasy show- but I also think her subconscious knows there’s danger in her home. Her little five-year-old mind knows something is very wrong and the consequence of things not being made right is her father disappearing (and she was right. Stolas is only alive because Andrealphus convinced Stella to call off the hit).
We also never see her actually interact with Stella. Every time she talks about her parents, she’s either talking about Stolas as an individual or both of them as a unit. There’s no portraits of her playing with Stella. She never mentions good memories of Stella. She knows subconsciously that Stella is an unsafe, uninvolved parent and Stolas is her safe place.
Except, Stolas is fighting back.
There’s this thing that’s not talked about often called ‘reactive abuse.’ It’s when the victim is pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed until they yell back or hit back. And then the abuser gets to turn around and say “oh my god you’re so abusive how could you do this to me??”
When Octavia is complaining about Stolas and Stella “screaming at each other” I think what she’s actually seeing is Stolas pushed to his limit and biting back after 17 years of keeping himself as small and quiet as possible. But because she doesn’t have this language or knowledge, to her, it looks like he’s fighting with Stella, the known aggressor, for no reason.
Where am I going with this? Idk. Set this girl up with a case worker and a workbook on domestic abuse.
So last Saturday, my mom was gonna take me and my brother over to a skating rink. My grandma asked my mom if she had her insurance card on her in case one of us got hurt.
So my mom started huffing and puffing and whining for no reason because....I don't know. I don't know why she got so upset. All her mom did was ask a simple question.
So then she gets up and says to us "C'mon and get in the car."
Acting like us going a little earlier was some kind of punishment for her and I guess also me and my brother?
Tbh I was already sensing that my mother was going to throw a big fit that day(You know how it is with people like her, they NEED attention, they NEED drama, and they NEED conflict.)but I didn't expect her to do it right before we were gonna go somewhere.
So I just decided "Fuck it, I'm not going when she's acting like this."
And I told her that and she amps up the tantrum, stomping her feet and going "Yes, you are!"
And ofc I have to scream at the top of my lungs "NO IM NOT" to get her to go away because of course I have to scream and yell to get her to stop. Of course I have to.
And she slammed my bedroom door before leaving.
The next day me and my mom didn't hardly speak to each other. When I finally worked up the courage to ask her wtf her problem was yesterday and she said "Sorry, it was just PMS."
Bullshit, she was in complete control the whole time she was having that fit.
And for the next couple of days, I just kept thinking about that fit. All I wanted to do was go roller-skating. And my mother has the audacity to complain that "Ohhh poor me I haven't had any fun in 3 years" and that "There's nothing to do around here". And yet how does she behave when the opportunity presents itself?
Today, I had had enough and decided to confront her about it. I know in these kind of shitty situations, you shouldn’t confront the aggressor since they're just gonna deflect, deny, and smirk at you the whole time. Which is what she did, she even asked me if my period had started(It did, two days ago but ofc this isn't the first time she's used my menstrual cycle to dismiss me).
Oh but its okay when Amy lets her "Pms" get the better of her and she slamsdoors and stomp around and screams at people.
And I also know that in this situations, you shouldn't get physical with your abuser, but fuck it. I was tired of having all this rage inside while she goes on with her life. She deserved to get hurt.
She liked it. She had a smile on her face the whole time we fought. No way she doesn't fucking like it.
She ended up putting me in a headlock and scratched me(Of course it wouldn't be the first time she's done that. The scratching, I mean.)
She's never gonna kick me out anyway. And believe me, I've tried everything to get her to(Since moving out the normal way just isn't in the cards for me right now, EVEN THO IM FUCKING TRYING). I've tried hitting her, I've tried throwing things at her, I've tried spitting on her, I've called her every awful name in the book and she just takes it. So fuck her. Fuck her.
It hurts less when it's me who starts these big fights. At least I get to control what happens. At least I have the courage to hurt her when it's me doing the yelling and not her.
Whatever, I gave her attention and a fight before she had the chance to start one. The cycle spins on. Whatever.
