TamraSpizz

[tamraspizz]

You are not quoting my comments in full or verbatim—you are selectively taking excerpts and interpreting them in your own way. You are not distorting the wording itself, but the meaning you assign to it is not there. @marielle555

Once again, please be patient, and I will address everything :**

[cosmicrequiemorb]

[cosmicrequiemorb]

No, no, no. Girls. You don't get it. Eating glass (and worse lol) is your fate.

Spawn fans can do whatever the hell they want with Starry. Travel, have fun, be heroes, take charge of the spawns in the Underdark, look for a way to walk in the sun (and we will absolutely find it) or just cause some chaos in the city… The list goes on forever. Our Astarion has the potential and a whole world to search through.

And this is canon, a literal window of opportunity for growth given to us by the game itself. The only thing he rejects is a settled life, and even with that choice, you still end up traveling the world together in the epilogue.

Meanwhile, your Astarion, regardless of your endgame choices, leads a boring, stagnant life, doing nothing but hosting banquets, soirees, masquerades and spinning webs among the nobility. And your only fate is to rot forever in Cazador's palace with Cazador 2.0, in the exact place where he endured his most horrific, miserable 200 years, and where literally everything will be a constant reminder of that nightmare. Even if you give that lair a total makeover, nothing changes. The palace itself will still be standing there, reminding Ascended Astarion of his past every single day. Your Astarion is forever chained to the cycle of abuse, making his path a total dead end, despite the pretty wrapping paper and the illusion of absolute power. One can only guess how long it will take for a romanced Tav to turn into Astarion 2.0. Given the relationship dynamic and his textbook love bombing, I'm pretty sure it'll happen rather fast.

And everyone knows it. You know it too. That's why the entire internet is littered with your unhinged walls of text, where you try to stretch the logic to its absolute breaking point using lore, devnotes, and interviews, while completely ignoring every single inconvenient fact. That's why you call the Spawn ending an afterthought that should have never existed, claiming it was just whined into existence by Twitter's woke crowd. (Yes, the internet remembers everything.)

That's why, the moment you run out of arguments, you instantly resort to insults. It's exactly why you delete any comment in your spaces that doesn't agree with your sickly-sweet cope, running in packs like a train and having your little clique of about 20 people (and that's being generous) like every single one of your own comments just to create the illusion of numbers, support, and engagement.

You are an echo chamber and a cult, and your opinion has never mattered. Especially not after Rooney's interview. That was the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, after which all your struggles are nothing but pure comedy.

So, girls, your pathetic, childish attempts to sting Spawn fans will always look ridiculous, and we will always laugh at you. Cry about it. You can go bang your head against the wall while you're at it.

Also, I see these people have added the word "harassment" to their vocabulary.

Well, let's draw a line here too.

When you swarm into someone else's blog comments as a mob and turn it into a dogpile - that's harassment.

When you coordinate attacks and engage in cyberbullying in your chat - that's harassment.

When you get a taste of your own medicine for it, that's not harassment. That's just karma. 🎻🎻🎻

XoXo

[marielle555]

Is BG3 really a game with such a forced narrative? Or is it, after all, an RPG? Is the player obligated to choose suffering in the name of “respect for the author”? (Discussion in the comments.)

Not long ago, in a comment on one of my posts:

Post by @marielle555 · 3 videos

💬 117  🔁 8  ❤️ 32 · An interview with Steven Rooney for the Bite & Play YouTube channel. Review and opinion. · The creator of our beloved ch

@tamraspizz came to debate. I was offered something like a blog-based debate, since the comment section isn't really suited for back-and-forth responses. In the end, this is what tamraspizz came up with:

Post by @tamraspizz · 3 images

💬 1  🔁 1  ❤️ 5 · Narrative of the BG3 and Astarion’s endings. A discussion in the comments. I’m saving this for myself and sharing it with y

Tamara, if you’re reading this, it’s absolutely fine to quote other people’s comments (on the internet, this is usually indicated with the © symbol followed by the commenter’s name; on Tumblr, you use the “@” symbol to tag the user you’re replying to). But blurring out the author and posting a screenshot of a snippet of someone else’s comment—while repeating what you’ve already written in your reply, without adding anything regarding “other comments of yours”—is a pretty strange approach. Okay, but still, out of all my “other comments,” the one I’d most like a reply to is this one:

“If you can’t handle the pain of another person—someone you love—that raises some serious questions.” (с) tamraspizz  – What kind of questions? Please be a little more specific. I’m sorry, but I feel empathy for the people close to me; some people are like that sometimes.”

But maybe we'll see this in some kind of “research” in the future?

If you’d like to read the full text of the comments, you can find them via the link to my post about the interview with Steven Rooney. In a more detailed (with more quotes, photos, and videos) and reader-friendly format, the continuation of my commentary (the comment with the author’s name hidden from the post by tamraspizz) can be found in the following posts:

Post by @marielle555 · 5 videos

💬 0  🔁 5  ❤️ 37 · The use of the word “freedom” in the context of Astarion’s lines. · Freedom is Astarion’s central theme. Astarion wants fr

Post by @marielle555 · 2 images

💬 4  🔁 14  ❤️ 69 · 11 Signs of Astarion's Happy Ending (Based on Quotes from the Game). Just for fun. 1. He will enjoy the luxuries of the

I suppose all I can do is repost my own reply to tamraspizz’s comment, since she didn’t say anything new. But I suppose this is more convenient than reading the text in the comments:

Lae’zel. I don’t think that uncovering the truth and freeing herself from faith in Vlaakith can be called a loss in any context whatsoever. Breaking free from a tyrannical cult that exploited you, one in which the best are destined to become sacrifices devoured by Vlaakith,—is nothing but a blessing. A blessing in the true sense, not in terms of some sort of “morality” (“morality,” as an abstract social construct, can be tacked onto any atrocity and used to cover up any sadism, as has always been the case throughout human history). What does “her entire worldview was shattered” mean? A worldview isn’t destroyed by new knowledge; it changes. And when a person who served some flawed, tyrannical idea—and allowed themselves to be used—comes to realize reality, finds their own path, and begins to act in their own best interests—that is precisely what personal growth is. It is an entirely positive change.

War appeals to Lae’zel; she relishes battle, and in the fight for her people’s freedom, Lae’zel is truly in her comfort zone, in her rightful place, and has found a life purpose that suits her perfectly. But if she were persuaded to stay in Faerûn, then yes, Lae’zel will be unhappy and unable to find a purpose for herself; she will then pay the price for Tav’s selfishness and for their desire for her to stay (I don’t see the point in Tav trying to convince her to stay, unless, for some reason, Tav—who is in a relationship with her—doesn’t want to go fight alongside her, shoulder to shoulder, for the Githyanki people).

“That sounds noble and inspiring, but what does it actually mean in practice?”—please try asking yourself the same question about what you call a “good” ending for Astarion. Let’s just compare what participating in a war actually means in practice for a warrior who revels in battle, and what this “good” world actually does to Astarion in practice (and the player is asked to let them do it).

Here’s an interesting fact: if Lae’zel learns the truth and becomes loyal to Orpheus, you’ll need to PERSUADE her to swear allegiance to Vlaakith in Act III, as well as persuade her to stay in Faerûn after the final battle, because she wants to fight for her people and doesn’t want to remain in Faerûn. In Lae’zel’s case, as in Astarion’s, Tav uses persuasion to go against their desires and aspirations.

Kevin VanOrd wrote a charming romance for Lae’zel (one can imagine that, in an ideal world, Welch wouldn’t have worked at Larian, and Kevin VanOrd would have written the scenes for Ascended Astarion that Stephen Rooney was unable to write due to illness—the game would surely have been much better). Lae’zel tells her lover:

“In so doing, you made yourself my possession and my obsession.”

At night, Lae’zel wakes the player character and confesses that she is obsessed with them. This is followed by a duel, during which the PC must demonstrate combat prowess to prove that they are worthy of her obsession. If Lae’zel is defeated in the romantic battle against the player’s character, she’ll say:

“You are ‘mine.’ Say the words.”

And there was none of that bullshit directed at her—no “obsession isn’t love” or other “media-literate” nonsense. I think it’s worth quoting Lae’zel whenever people start “comparing” Astarion to Cazador because of the line: “You are mine.” And Lae’zel’s fans had no issues with either Tav’s lines or their facial expressions; everyone praised this romance and was satisfied with it. It was extremely “fun” to debate with a player who highly praised Lae’zel’s romance and claimed that Ascended Astarion “loses his soul,” and that I “just didn’t like the story told by the authors.” This is another example of double standards, hypocrisy, and unfairness toward Astarion.

Shadowheart. The scenario in which Shadowheart kills her parents (they are destined for a very pleasant afterlife in Selune’s domain, and they themselves ask her to let them go; Shadowheart allows them to die as they wish)—that’s the scenario I had in mind. In Faerûn, “death” is not “true death”; souls in Faerûn actually exist physically, and a person’s personality continues to live on after the loss of the physical body—the vessel of the soul. The transition to a deity’s domain, if a person so desires, can quite rightly be described as “letting the soul go”; it is not the same as murder in our world.

In the friendly epilogue at the party, Shadowheart is happy and clearly has a purpose and a place in life that she likes. And that good ending, in which Shadowheart sends her parents off to the Domain of Selune (she chooses this ending herself if you don’t interfere with her decisions at all), —cannot, in principle, be compared to the agony of starvation, the mocking laughter of bastards as you burn in the sun and try to escape, and then, curled up in a ball behind crates at the docks, tending to your wounds. Not to mention everything that Astarion, left as a spawn, goes through. And the suffering from a single wound on her hand would clearly be much less, even if she were persuaded to spare her parents’ lives. You wrote about some “hints” regarding relieving UA’s suffering, but with Shadowheart, you don’t even need “hints”—she can simply chop off her own hand and fit a magical prosthesis. No hand – no pain, and a skilled artificer can craft a magical prosthesis that’s actually better than a regular hand in practical terms. If a Shadowheart fan wants her parents to be alive and for her not to pay for it with pain, there’s no need for a copium—just a simple hand replacement, and that’s it.

And Astarion already has memories of pain, even without any “final gift,” and they’re far more terrifying. I don’t think the developers would have allowed the “Princess of God” (Shadowheart was Swen Vincke’s favorite character) to be tormented the same way Astarion was. To be honest, I used to think that Larian were misogynists who made a good game for heterosexual men, while at the same time trying to force women and queer people who had grown to love Astarion to endure such an atrocity as the UA path—especially after insulting players, who refused to choose it, by shoving sadistic trash in their faces as “fan service” on Valentine’s Day. All my male gamer friends agreed that if they were to put their “waifu” in Astarion’s place in BG3, they would never in a million years choose the option to refuse the ritual and do that to their love interest. But then I was told that, unfortunately, there are a lot of “fixers” among women. And please don’t take this as a lack of respect for Rooney—this is just my old opinion; back then, I didn’t yet know that he finds this romantic arc emotionally satisfying.

But I really missed an important, unpleasant point. The developers give you the opportunity to respect Shadowheart’s autonomy and let her make her own choice. Shadowheart throws the spear herself. The spear is in her hands; she makes the choice. In this case, any Persuasion is really just persuasion. She may not listen to you—she has that option. Or you can let her decide for herself—there’s an option not to interfere. When deciding the fate of her parents, you can also choose not to intervene and let her decide for herself. Astarion is the only one whose fate isn’t in his own hands. Essentially, Tav persuades Astarion not to Ascend/not Ascend, but to stay with the group and keep the romance alive, or to leave, wishing for Tav to die screaming. Why not give Astarion the chance to remember his scars and do as they did with Shadowheart—when the spear is in her hands and “Persuasion” is truly persuasion, not some rather distasteful manipulation? After all, Astarion CAN Ascend in a Solo Run; he recalls his scars (an Intelligence check) during a long rest in Act 2 and must pass an Intelligence check with a difficulty of 15 during the ritual to recall his scars, and he doesn’t need anyone’s help. In order for there to be at least something “sweet” in the bitterness, Rooney could have given Astarion the chance to decide for himself, and then the romantic arc—in which you were unable to fulfill your own inner vow made in Act 2, when, after the confession scene, you’re overcome by a feeling that’s hard to describe, a feeling as if you were holding his wounded heart in your hands, holding it as gently as you can, and there’s nothing more precious in the whole world than that—the vow to protect Astarion from any pain—maybe then it would have made at least some sense, if Astarion had chosen that path for himself.

“Gale is just fine, even without the Crown of Karsus”—again, it’s not that simple. What do we actually see in practice?”—Gale, who has regained his former life, the one he had before the sphere appeared in his chest. Gale’s character embodies both aspirations—ambition and a longing for a quiet, peaceful life cuddling with a cat; both of his endings are good, each in its own way. In essence, the “God-Gale” ending can’t really be called “evil”; he simply becomes a minor deity of magic, a neutral deity. Mystra was also mortal and didn’t become “evil” upon accepting divinity. Gale does have a bad ending—the one where Tav persuades him to sacrifice himself and blow himself up in the finale.

New note (!): Larian's authors like the ending in which Gale dies:

Baldur's Gate 3 Developers Explain Its Controversial Endings, Beloved Characters, and Making the Best RPG of 2023 - IGN

Larian breaks down the creation of Baldur's Gate 3, from memorable characters like Astarion and The Emperor to its various endings.

Quote:

“Gale: 'The Guy Who Starts Off Annoying Everyone

I really liked Gale setting off the bomb with the brain, and actually that felt like the right ending to me.

AS: In many ways it is, yeah.

If you wait that long, it's a cool ending.”

“Chrystal Ding, Lead Writer: On a very human level, you have the guy who starts off annoying everyone, he's constantly asking you to give him your most treasured possessions to eat, otherwise he's in trouble, and at the end, he gives himself for the world.”

As a player, I get the impression that the developers at Larian have some trouble understanding their audience and what players feel “on a very human level.” Personally, Gale didn’t annoy me at all at the beginning of my first playthrough, and when I found out about his problem, I simply set aside the least necessary artifacts for him, thinking that I’d have to feed him artifacts throughout the entire game (which would have been an interesting mechanic, in my opinion), and I planned what to feed him next, without any judgment or greed. Gale fans’ reaction to this statement from the developers was far more compassionate toward their beloved character than the reaction of some “UA fans” to the “emotionally satisfying” ending for the suffering Astarion (spoiler: Gale fans didn’t like that very much):

Before I start, I want to say that I absolutely appreciate and acknowledge all the hard work put into this game as we�ve seen with the const

“However, the way the writers talk about their characters kills any desire I have left to continue any one of my playthroughs.” © Glitches about Gale.

Continued from the previous comment:

Whether intentionally or not, I’m sorry, but you often downplay and neglect the suffering of Astarion, who was dumped as the spawn—precisely what “we actually see in practice”—by comparing it to the “losses” of other companions. But please don’t take offense—this is simply my honest opinion. The worst part is comparing helping Astarion with his Ascension to “enabling a drug addict.” Let me explain: drugs destroy the human body and kill people. And in that case, of course, the addict’s desire is self-destructive, and we need to help them overcome it. But the ritual does not harm Astarion’s health—on the contrary, it removes the negative effects of vampirism and restores life to his body. In Astarion: Origins, you can hear the narrator say that “your heart has started beating again.” Astarion will once again be able to feel alive (“I feel alive, hahaha!”), live a full life, not feel hunger, see the sun, and see his reflection in the mirror. His health, on the contrary, will improve significantly.

But let’s get back to Gale—the rejection of ambition, as you correctly pointed out. If you look closely, the way the theme of “ambition” is portrayed in the game, with female and male tropes in terms of “good and evil,” seems rather strange. The female characters—Shadowheart and Lae’zel—have “evil” endings in which they accept someone else’s authority over them (for Lae’zel, her “evil” ending is also literally a bad one, as she dies). Both will “serve”: Shadowheart will surrender herself to Shar and become whatever Shar wants her to be, while Lae’zel faces certain death in this scenario—Vlaakith will devour her. The “good” paths are definitely better for them personally, with the difference being that becoming a Dark Justicar is an “evil” ending, whereas loyalty to Vlaakith is a “bad” ending. Karlach is suicidal; she can be talked out of it (she’ll choose life if someone agrees to go with her to Avernus) just as you can either agree to her wish to become an illithid or prevent her from doing so. She doesn’t have a “path” of her own; it’s more like an unfinished quest (in theory, a good outcome for her quest should have involved fixing the engine), which ended up being handled this way. For the male characters, their “evil” traits are their ambitions. Gale either becomes a god or gives up his ambitions and hands the Crown of Karsus over to his toxic ex. In Wyll’s story, people seem to have called the ending where he becomes a duke the “evil” ending. Astarion has the worst “good” ending in the game; essentially, it might be “good” for anyone but him personally. Ascended Astarion not only fulfills his ambitions but also gains a new life, the chance to feel alive and enjoy life. So does this mean a man reveals his “best qualities” only if he sets aside his ambitions and “bends”? Wyll, to be sure, doesn’t really have any particular ambitions of his own; if you don’t influence him and let him decide for himself, he’ll become either the Blade of Avernus or the Blade of Frontiers—he doesn’t choose to become a duke on his own without the player’s input.

Does ascending to godhood mean losing one’s “humanity”? Hmm, quite a few of Faerûn’s gods were once mortals. It’s kind of like how moving into a luxurious mansion after winning the lottery can be seen as losing an old, run-down studio apartment in a cheap neighborhood. In a friendly playthrough, Gale can choose to refuse the Crown himself; in my first playthrough, I didn’t even have any dialogue options to persuade Gale to take the Crown for himself. The Crown is in his hands, just as the spear is in Shadowheart’s.

Thanks for the information from Kevin VanOrd regarding Wyll. It seems that Swen Vincke should pay more attention to organizing work in case of unforeseen situations, such as authors falling ill. Otherwise—Stephen Rooney fell ill, and as a result, Welch messed up Ascended Astarion's romance; Kevin VanOrd fell ill—Wyll was neglected, and his fans complained about the lack of content in his romance (his romantic scenes were covered in about 30 minutes or less). Considering that Rooney begins to recommend the UA path precisely when the topic of romance comes up, mentioning that: “Just partly why I had to take medical leave, which is partly why other people ended up pitching in to write some stuff right at the end. The biggest thing I took away from Astarion was, ‘God, just make sure I never do that again.’” One might think that he isn’t very satisfied with how “other people ended up pitching in to write some stuff right at the end” and is recommending the romantic arc to which he personally devoted more time.

“Wyll breaks his contract with Mizora and saves his father. The price: Mizora no longer provides him with demonic power.” – A small clarification: it’s not “demonic power,” but “devilish power.” To obtain demonic powers, one must make a contract with the demons of the Abyss, not with the devils of the Nine Hells, and Wyll wouldn’t have been able to break free from the Abyss (chaotic evil, whereas devils are lawful evil and abide by the laws) so easily. Wyll is doing just fine in Avernus even without Mizora’s devilish powers; he has plenty of strength of his own, and he happily recounts his exploits there. In any case, Wyll fights monsters and boasts of his exploits, whether his father is alive or not. Wyll never chooses the Duke’s ending on his own unless he is influenced to do so. To get Wyll’s bad ending in the game, you must kill Mizora in the capsule.

“The narrative of BG3 is quite transparent and clearly present in the stories of most companions: either remain loyal to old imposed beliefs, ideology, gods, masters, or ambitions; or try to break free from their shackles, whether physical or psychological, or both. So why does everything suddenly «break» in Astarion’s case?”

It doesn’t break! Astarion breaks free from his physical and psychological shackles in his “evil” ending—after the Ascension (“Unmaking what you made me”). The narrative itself is more than transparent and clear; I won’t even mention the physical shackles so as not to repeat the same thing ten times—but even the word “freedom” (Astarion’s main theme) is used constantly in the script in the context of the Ascension or after it; along the UA’s path, freedom is mentioned in line: “Of course, now that I’m free from one threat, we’ll have to face the other: the tadpoles that let me walk in the light.” Freedom from only one threat is incomplete. I liked Neil’s comment about Astarion:

“I just love the fact that his incessant drive and desire to be utterly free are unshackled by other people’s opinions of it.”

UA continues to wear psychological shackles; he is bound by other people’s opinions of him. The Ascended are completely free of these shackles. And the quote about the ending of Astarion Origin:

“Astarion’s challenge wasn’t directly related to him being a vampire. It was that he was a spawn, and that he wasn’t free.”

In other words, Astarion has two problems: being a “spawn” and not being “free.” And in what scenario are BOTH problems resolved? Only AA – he is both free and has not ceased to be a spawn; he has become a living vampire and rid himself of all the problems associated with being a spawn. The sun is a symbol of freedom for Astarion; in the bitter finale, it nearly kills him—Astarion is sharply and painfully betrayed and rejected. At first, he doesn’t expect what’s about to happen; he’d been walking under the sun up until then, and deep down, he was most likely desperately hoping that everything would stay the same. And he burns with anguish and runs away while the others rejoice in their victory—including Tav—and, while they celebrate, Astarion sits somewhere behind the crates at the docks. It looks like a symbol of rejection, of how the “good world of good people” treats the “wrong” person. Astarion really needs a weapon against this world; he needs power—that much is obvious and clear.

The only thing that falls apart is the “presentation” of the finale, when the tragic ending is described as “good” in words. For whom is it “emotionally satisfying”? Where in the story and screenplay itself is there a contradiction to what I just wrote? In only one place:

Tav: “I know you think this will set you free, but it won't. This power will trap you, just like it trapped Cazador”.

In response to Astarion's question: “I'll be free - truly, completely free. Isn't that what you want?”

It doesn’t matter what Astarion wants, it doesn’t matter what HE thinks—what matters is what that bitch thinks. There’s no factual basis for that bitch’s opinion in the script. The real trap for Astarion is his closeness to this character, who’s putting new shackles on the victim of two centuries of slavery. And… For this piece of shit (I’m evaluating Tav as a character right now, not the player; you also called Astarion an asshole, and I think it’s fine for me to call the character what I consider them to be), the UA’s behavior will indeed be emotionally satisfying. Astarion will satisfy their desire to “teach” him, satisfy their pathetic egos. And this is a real tragedy, and the mechanics are indeed based on the psychology of trauma. Cazador humiliated, insulted, and tortured Astarion for 200 years, and the victim of abuse doesn’t know that he deserves better. A victim of abuse easily falls into new toxic relationships.

Rooney is a very talented author and professional; he experimented with a rather difficult subject. A “bittersweet” ending is harder to write than the classic happy ending—perhaps that’s why he wanted to focus more on this than Ascension—a classic victory story. So why is there no sense of “sweetness” in this ending (assuming you take Astarion seriously and fall in love with him)? I found my own answer in the ending of the game “Pragmata” - the game has a bittersweet ending where, playing as Hugh, infected with a deadly virus, you give the power cell from your spacesuit to Diana so she can return to Earth and see the ocean. The girl arrives on Earth and steps onto the ocean shore, gazing at the moon and promising that she’s “ready.” Hugh remains adrift in space. And it’s bittersweet—it brings a tear to your eye, but in a good way—completely different from the tears in that hated scene at the docks on the UA route, when all you want is for Tav and her friends to burn instead of Astarion. After Pragmata, I changed the opinion I’d formed based on my BG3 experience—that you can’t trust games and that you can’t just buy a game and play it with an open heart without checking spoilers to see if they’re trying to shove “bittershit” in there (My aversion to the term “bittersweet” developed long before Rooney’s interview, so this isn’t “disrespect toward the author”). But “bittersweet” isn’t always a bad thing.

Rooney seems to have focused on the character of Astarion, creating a truly unique and multifaceted character and realistically portraying all of his reactions—it turned out brilliantly, and it’s impossible not to fall in love with Astarion, but… He didn’t consider who he’s asking the player to identify with in this romance. Tav comes across as a rather despicable creature, alas. If we imagine the story of the Unascended Astarion as a movie (let’s take a passive medium that doesn’t require any audience participation in the story)—then in Astarion: Origin, this story will work when Astarion is the protagonist; it will come across as a powerful drama. If Tav were the protagonist and it were portrayed the way it is in the game, I’d bet that most viewers who really liked Astarion himself would hate this character—even those UA fans who wanted to play that way but fought to fix the scene in the docks, demanded healing for Astarion, and so on. Show them this story as a movie, and I bet they’d say: “What a rotten bitch!” In RPGs that assume a very high degree of player agency, there are examples of complex characters with well-developed versions of bad endings and failed quests for them, scenarios where the player can literally destroy their LI, and these are written in a powerful and realistic way—but there isn’t a single example where anything resembling Astarion’s tragedy on the UA path has successfully been presented as the main, emotionally satisfying outcome for all players. Maybe Rooney will still bring about a revolution in the future—who knows? He really is a talented writer.

“So, Astarion. The Spawn path is a rejection of Ascension, a rejection of the beliefs imposed on him by Cazador during 200+ years of slavery, and a liberation from his control, along with personal growth—as described by his writer, Rooney: «Because it has that sense of he's learned how to care about someone who's gone on this adventure with you». This implies that, on the opposite path, he does not gain this, or he loses it.” - How does this single quote lead directly to such conclusions? How can this imply that Astarion doesn’t receive or loses this on his Ascension path? I understand that the comment section under the post can be hard to read, but I’ve already given examples of how AA cares for his beloved, and this is in my main post, and @Flomens wrote about how AA empathizes with Tav because of Haarlep, deeply sympathizing with them and understanding how hard it is, based on his own past experience as a victim of abuse. I’d like to avoid copying and pasting the same thing ten times, so I’ll add something new, shall I:

"Ask me anything, and it will be yours."

A genuine willingness to show care through concrete actions. Just tell me what you need, and I’ll take care of it. Astarion also cares about his beloved’s emotional well-being; he often compliments them and accepts them just as they are. To Astarion, his partner will always be the very best, the most wonderful person:

“You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.” “Just when I thought I couldn't love you any more.” “I'm so lucky I crash-landed next to such an intelligent creature as you.”

Is the desire to live a full life without constant hunger and a flamethrower hanging over his head, ready to burn him alive, really “beliefs imposed by Сazador”? It is UA who remains the victim of the very beliefs that Сazador tried to impose on him.

“I strove for perfection in all things—even those as imperfect as you.” Cazador’s words echo “don’t mess it up” and “a parasite hasn’t chewed through your brain”—these are possible lines for Tav in the graveyard scene, to which Astarion responds by agreeing with that attitude… You’re imperfect; you can “mess everything up”; “your brain probably isn’t capable of it.”  To tell him how bad he is, how imperfect, how he’s “behaving incorrectly”—and to do so in the most painful way possible. “I fondly remember your empty boasting, your tired jokes, your endless prattle…”—same as “the parasite hasn’t chewed through your brain.”

And Cazador’s: “Because he is incapable of anything else” echoes “This power will trap you, just like it trapped Cazador.” You’re incapable. Incapable of determining your own fate; you’re “driven by fear”; you can only “become a second Cazador”—replicating the behavior of your past abuser.  And that’s why: “I want you to live a life you’re proud of. You can’t be proud of this.” I want. I know what kind of life you should live. You’re incapable of anything—Cazador is right—you must follow me, submit to me, or you’ll become just like him. And Astarion accepts a new abuser. Although it’s clear in the game that Tav is the second Сazador. Yes, it’s quite a profound tragedy—when, after killing his former tormentor, Astarion finds himself in a relationship with a new overseer, and the very possibility of this relationship is rooted in the mechanisms of trauma.

In the scene at the graveyard after:

“I had to punch a hole in the coffin and claw my way through six feet of dirt. Then, when I finally broke the surface, retching up dirt and congealed blood, Cazador was waiting.”

The so-called “partner” might say something as vile as

“Then don’t mess it up”

to the survivor, right after he’s recounted one of his most painful and brutal memories. This devalues Astarion’s feelings and his very personhood. Humiliation and devaluation in relationships are forms of abusive behavior often characteristic of female abusers. Astarion endures this and then replies,

“I will endeavor to please.”

This acceptance of the attitude of such a toxic, demeaning partner—this desire to please a new abuser—is, for a survivor of the trauma of two hundred years of slavery, truly painful to witness; it is a clear regression in the healing process. This is not the words of a free person; it is the concession of a slave. Before the ritual, when Tav violates Astarion’s boundaries—forcing him to drink the blood of a vile drow, forcing him to have sex—he breaks up with them the very next day. But, having lost his freedom, UA reverts to a slave’s mindset—the insult is not perceived as an offense. Instead, he promises to be a better servant, or more precisely, to follow orders more precisely.

AA demonstrates genuine personal growth—if Tav insults AA (compares him to Сazador, causes him physical harm—a kick), he reacts with hurt and anger and cuts off the relationship. He stands up for himself, he demands respect, and if he is disrespected, he ends the relationship. And in the non-romantic epilogue, in response to Tav’s line, “You’re just like Сazador,” Astarion says,

“Try to wound me all you like, but I’m so much better than he ever was.”

In other words, even to a triggering insult—and a comparison to a tormentor is definitely a trigger for a survivor—Astarion reacts calmly and doesn’t let any scumbag hurt him—there isn’t even any anger. A perfect example of personal growth—the basic stage involves asserting oneself through a natural reaction of anger (anger is a reaction to injustice; a person without anger cannot defend their own boundaries—it’s an important emotion), while the highest stage is the strength of character that cannot be hurt. But Unascended can be humiliated even by a bitch-ex at the party in the epilogue:

Tav: “You seem... happy. Are you sure you haven't been drinking blood?"

Astarion: “No, this is all me, I swear.”

Tav: “I'm glad to hear it. Acceptance look good on you.” - Astarion doesn't show any anger in response to this; he can't even take a jab at this prick with a bit of sarcasm.

Astarion has seen too much shit in his life (“After two hundred years of shit, pure shit, I think I deserve something better.”) But in the tragic, bitter ending, there’s a scenario where his “beloved” turns out to be yet another piece of shit, and we get to see what happens in that case—no personal growth; he puts on a mask in front of this piece of shit and… behaves in a way that seems emotionally satisfying to them. Rooney portrayed this very well. If you play the game in test mode, checking all of Astarion’s reactions on both paths—including the vile lines from Tav—the Ascended’s honest and healthy anger feels like a breath of fresh air.

“The price is a return to vampiric limitations after the fall of the Absolute. But, as the game itself suggests, this is something that can be dealt with  together in the future.” - I’ll repeat that Rooney rejected that option, preferring a tragedy:

“That might have been too optimistic for me. I do like how his story ended up, but we took a couple of swings at happier endings as well. I love a bittersweet ending, so.”

Perhaps Larian later half-heartedly “threw the dissatisfied players a bone” with just a single line about “searching for a cure” (what “cure,” and will they even manage to find it?) for the sake of a more satisfying copium and personal headcanons. But either we look at what the author intended—and the author didn’t want an optimistic outcome—or we look at the script and dialogue. And there, things are definitely not that simple and bear no resemblance to a school essay in the style of “good vs. evil, power, ambition is bad, blah-blah-blah”—something like what schoolchildren sometimes copy from ready-made essays so the teacher will give them a grade and leave them alone—no, in Astarion’s script and dialogue, things are far from as simple as you periodically try to claim, I’m sorry.

“Add to this the implied plans — such as a desire to plunge the world into shadows (isn’t there a contradiction here with his desire to bask in the sun?) and the fact that he is perfectly willing to strip even his beloved of what he himself has gained.” – The real fact is that he does not strip his beloved of anything; on the contrary, he shares with them the gift of eternity and grants them immortality and strength. He SHARES his powers and immortality with Tav:

“I’m willing to share all of this with you. What’s that if not love?”

Astarion shows his love through his actions.

“I'm imbibed with unfathomable new talents. I am fairly certain I can extend Mephistopheles' blessings unto you. You need not fear anything. You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.”

Tav also becomes a living vampire, just like Astarion, without losing any of the pleasures available to mortals, and does NOT receive the vampire’s curse. “Immortality is your gift, but darkness is your prison and hunger its gaoler". The essence of the vampire’s curse is darkness and eternal hunger—becoming an undead creature. Immortality is a gift. Ascension frees the vampire from all effects of the curse, leaving only the gift. Astarion shares this gift with his Bride. Tav doesn’t burn in the sun, doesn’t feel hunger, can see their reflection in a mirror, eats, and drinks alcohol. Tav will now be “beautiful forever” and, if they wish, can bite someone. And derive pleasure from it, as well as the “happy” buff. You can refuse vampirism if you don’t take a long rest after Ascension but instead head straight into the final battle. Then Astarion will calmly accept your refusal, and you’ll preserve your romantic relationship.

“Here is what Astarion himself says if he rejects the ritual: «I could feel something slipping away. I came so close to losing myself, losing everything I've learned since meeting you". - That doesn’t sound very good, as if Astarion is playing along with the “schoolmarm”—as if he were supposed to “learn” something from this “wisest leader.” And the wording is inaccurate—Astarion doesn’t reject the ritual himself; Tav rejects his request for help and convinces him to accept it. Astarion is perfectly capable of saying exactly what people want to hear from him, but I won’t try to downplay the line, since there’s been this constant nonsense about the Ascended—that Astarion supposedly “manipulates and lies” (even though he has absolutely no motive to lie now that he’s gotten everything he wanted). Okay, and this curiously echoes the “schoolmarm” tone in AA’s dialogue.

Тav: You can tell me that you've learned something from all this. (One of four lousy lines in a scene consisting entirely of bad lines for the player, but I had to choose this nonsense just to avoid the awful “I want your body,” and the demand to turn Tav into a vampire also sounds like I helped him just for that, and “schoolmarm” is the only chance to not ask for any “reward” and keep the relationship intact).

Astarion: Truly? And what was I supposed to learn from this? – That sounds better; here, Astarion no longer accepts the idea that someone can “teach” him. After that, the conversation can get to normal tracks.

All right, fine, but UA has some lines along the way that are much more important to me:

A scene after the ritual (in response to Tav’s line, “I’m proud of you…”).

Astarion: “I’m glad you think so, because I’m not so sure. I just feel numb.”

“I should probably start getting used to the shadows again. Who knows how long I have left in the sun?”

That’s what we see in practice. In practice.

 Тav: “You did the right thing, stopping the Black Mass”.

“I know. That doesn’t mean it stings any less”.

Tav: “And if it is? Can you live with what?” -

“I’ll have to. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it”.

Тav: “I wasn’t sure if you’d stop the ritual or not, honestly”.

Astarion:

“I am - well, not 'happy' with how things turned out. But this does feel right.”

At first, he is sincere, but then he puts on a mask, and this «good» creature must derive moral satisfaction from it.

“I'm still nothing, aren't I? Just an expandable frail spawn who will burn to a crisp soon enough.”

That’s just heartbreaking. Ascended Astarion would never say or think that about himself.

“Thus, your claim «By helping Astarion Ascend, I am not depriving him of anything—absolutely nothing» — is fundamentally incorrect. Unless, of course, you consider the loss or distortion of one’s identity to be insignificant. But I doubt that would be the case for Astarion.”

Loss of one’s identity? Or “distortion”? Excuse me, but how does this actually work, from a realistic standpoint? You’re walking along—and bam! Your identity falls out of your pocket—that’s it, you’ve lost it? People don’t “lose their identity”; identity isn’t a static object that can be lost. Identity is a continuous process of change, adaptation, and reinterpretation; every night, neurons in our synaptic network rewrite and recalibrate information, and our identities shift slightly based on our experiences.  What is called “loss of identity” is simply a change that the person using this metaphor either disagrees with or fears. “Distortion of identity” is a value judgment, not an objective reality; what one person calls “distortion,” another will call “growth.” It’s a matter of perspective. “Personality distortion” is a way of saying, “You’ve stopped being convenient for me.” As long as you met someone’s expectations, you were “real.” As soon as you stopped being who the speaker wants you to be, you’ve “distorted” yourself. The real distortion is when you let others determine who you “should” be. AA doesn’t allow that; its personality is perfectly fine. More often than not, accusations of “losing yourself” come from people who would like to see you as you used to be (convenient for them) and don’t accept your changes—that’s how it really is. You cannot “lose” yourself—you can simply stop being who others wanted you to be. This is not a loss; it is liberation. And this also relates to the theme of true freedom, “truly, completely free,” for Ascended Astarion.

Moreover, Astarion’s personality is in no way “distorted”; after the Ascension (“Unmaking what you made me.”), Astarion literally regains his noble status immediately—he naturally begins to behave like a nobleman, just as he may have behaved in the past, before he was enslaved. Now he always maintains an aristocratic bearing with ease. His gestures, lines, and every movement look incredibly natural. Even Astarion’s body language reflects how he feels. Astarion is a hedonist who revels in luxury and all of life’s pleasures. Astarion regains his true self and everything that was taken from him. And so—Astarion remains Astarion; he doesn’t undergo any “personality distortions”—he becomes more open, expresses himself vividly, and laughs contagiously—he’s simply a pleasure to watch.

Astarion remains himself in any case, whether he’s Ascended or not; the question is how he feels in one scenario or the other. “Growing as a person is not the same as ‘fixing’ someone.”—Yes, because true personal growth is what happens within a person—it’s something a person chooses for themselves. And when someone tries to “arrange personal growth” for another person—that’s either using them/fixing them, or it’s a scam (like all those coaches, gurus, etc.).

“However, idealizing one route while ignoring its obvious downsides is… strange.” - I’m not ignoring the obvious downsides of the writing on Ascension path—I see them perfectly well—but it’s impossible to cover everything at once in a comment, alas; there are a lot of flaws. Problems with roleplay, a scene consisting of four bad lines where immersion is completely shattered and it’s impossible to simply choose a line to respond with, rails, a check that forces the player to agree to “degradation,” the player’s role as a submissive according to the script with no choice (there are no lines at all; Astarion says: “Ask me anything, and it will be yours”—and you can’t say, “My sunshine, let’s avoid slapping me after the kiss, mmm?”), Tav periodically pulls nasty faces (I’m not even talking about Patch 6, but just in cutscenes where there’s absolutely no point in pulling such faces), there are tons of lines for fights and insults, but at the same time, it’s impossible to simply tell your loved one: “I love you,” hug him and kiss him tenderly without mods (though they didn’t forget to include the option to fuck everything that moves—Halsin, Mizora, go to a brothel, etc.). I was talking about Astarion’s well-being, and I try to appreciate the good moments, of which there are still quite a few. Hmm, it’s easy to see why Rooney recommends normies choose UA romance… But I can respect the author without idealizing him or his writing as well. If he wanted to create something “bittersweet” and emotionally satisfying at the same time—that kind of “emotional satisfaction” is clearly not for everyone. But he wrote an excellent epilogue for Ascended. I think that without Welch’s interference in the AA romance, Rooney’s “glass” experiment would have gone better—his preferred path would have been chosen by those who want that kind of experience, and a bunch of mobs wouldn’t have tried to intimidate and force those who don’t “eat glass” into it—and then there would have been far less criticism of his UA path.

“It is much deeper than that. In creating Astarion’s arc, he relied on principles of dramaturgy, trauma psychology, and the internal logic of character development («need vs. want» and so on). So yes, we can interpret what happens in the game however we like — but does that change the author’s intent? No. He chooses the ending based on his professional design and understanding of the character, not on «I want tragedy, I want angst». – Of course, it goes much deeper. And it’s both much deeper and more interesting when you really dig into the plot—there’s a lot to discover. The psychology of trauma—yes, it’s well portrayed how a traumatized person can easily become the victim of a new abuser, and how someone who wants power over him and wants to “teach” him to be convenient for them can sink their claws into his heart. “Need vs. want”—Rooney didn’t say that. But the game’s plot does feature Astarion’s “need” versus that bitch Tav’s “want.”

“I prefer genuine emotional satisfaction rather than reveling in the suffering of a beloved character». Here, for example, you are quite selectively framing the wording. In Rooney’s interview, there was nothing about «reveling in the suffering» of a character” - In that sentence, I expressed my own personal perception of how I think it looks and what I personally prefer. I didn’t say that Rooney was literally talking about “reveling in the suffering.” Rooney was talking about having fun and how he enjoyed writing situations in which the player can treat Astarion terribly:

“I generally think of the points in the game where you do something absolutely terrible to Astarion, and that’s where I’m having the most fun.”

He finds it interesting to write the character’s reactions in brutal situations, and as Astarion suffers on the UA path, Rooney did an excellent job of showing how Astarion’s true feelings about what’s happening come through in many of his lines, even though he often says things that ‘good’ Tav wants to hear. Neil played this perfectly. Rooney also spoke about his love for tragedies (“There’s a tragedy that I really love”).

I don’t think my assessment of UA’s bitter path is in any way disrespectful to Rooney’s work. A player can evaluate the quality of the writing and how well the author’s words align with what he actually wrote in the script; there’s nothing wrong or disrespectful about that. Rooney also said that it matters to him that his character evokes an emotional response, that people feel something and don’t remain indifferent (the ability to evoke strong emotions—any kind—is a sign of a writer’s skill):

“So even if I wasn't trying to deliver a specific message, I guess knowing that it did land with people, that it did connect and also just wanted to tell an interesting emotional story that would get people to feel things. That's all you ever really want. But you're kind of sitting down to write a character. I didn't particularly care if people love Astarion or if they hated him as long as I got a reaction, as long as people didn't feel neutral about him. And I've met plenty of people who did not like him as well, which is also great for me. So no, I mean, the most important thing is just that he is meaningful to people.”

If Rooney doesn’t even consider his character’s haters to be disrespectful, would he really consider those who love Astarion but dislike his tragic ending to be disrespectful? Okay, I love Astarion and hate Tav on the UA path—when I had to test that route, that was also an emotional reaction, which Rooney managed to evoke. To the point that I used to always prefer to play seriously and never liked things like stuffing my companions’ corpses into crates and dumping them somewhere (I was surprised when I read in an update that Larian had paid attention to things like fixing a bug that prevented players from doing such nonsense), but here, for the first time, I appreciated the benefits of such gameplay options—putting clown makeup on Tav, feeding her rotten food, and tossing her around like a stress ball, just to relieve some of the stress from this test playthrough—which was also an unusual emotional reaction for me. This story didn’t leave me indifferent, just as the author intended. And I love Astarion himself equally on both paths; I just play with immersion and “play as myself,” identifying with the main character, only in the Ascension scenario.

And essentially, here’s my criticism of the “bittersweet” romance that Rooney prefers (Rooney suggested this choice specifically in the discussion about Astarion’s romance)—the PC comes across as a total bastard. But the writing of Astarion’s character itself is very strong, excellent. If Tav had sacrificed something and suffered as well, the story would have played out better; or, if Astarion had been the game’s protagonist—then the “bittersweet” approach would likely have worked. There are games where the protagonist suffers deeply, and there are games with well-executed “bittersweet” endings, like Pragmata. If Rooney’s next project doesn’t focus on romantic relationships but focuses on something else, I might buy it and see what other interesting character he comes up with.

P.S. Regarding the “research.” As soon as I went online after posting about Rooney’s interview, I received this almost immediately:

The names of real people have been redacted. Here we see an example of a bully of the lowest intellectual caliber imaginable—rambling insults coupled with the most illiterate Russian possible. Phew, this isn’t exactly easy to translate into English, given the slang, but I’ll try to convey the “spirit” of the original by using techniques to mimic illiteracy in English—such as omitting grammatical connectors, using incorrect agreement, and employing incorrect grammar in places where this is particularly noticeable in the Russian original:

“ooоо fuck, here in the comments all this cancer tumor of the fandom gathered, how cute bitch. Of course your shitty sect need be study in psychiatry, how tiktok, chat and bots rot brain completely. listen you, dumb fucking asshole. tell your girlies to like your psycho brainfarts even more actively, so i can ban all you fucks, so in my cozy little feed there will be no your fucked up cult shit and all these dickriders. By the way, : [whited out] fucked. pass it on right now bitch. By the way, its funny to watch how you throw yourself at everyone, even tho its you who getting fucked by others lol”

Also, the phrase “в психиатрии изучать”—used in reference to those who don’t like Astarion’s tragic ending—can be translated from illiterate Russian into English as “psychiatric research.” Should AA fans on Tumblr expect “psychiatric research” from the bullers and non-con gooners?

And №2:

A translation that attempts (as much as possible) to convey the slang and grammatical errors of the original:

“looooooooool, damn you just got fucking destroyed, ahahahah. Why would I hit screen, and even with hammer? I not sick schizo like you and your little dick-riding simps who have non-stop pain in fifth point and four-times fucking hate for most of the fandom just because you get owned on Twitter and everywhere else possible for being brain-dead idiots. By the way, I didn't ask you to dump your traumas. But finally — without an AI translation — it's crystal clear that you're just another snowflake who faints at a different opinion, a underage dumb cunt, and that most of your bio-garbage cattle-squad from chat are the same. People like you would justify serial killers and maniacs if they were hot and gave you puppy eyes — exactly like how you justify AA. That's why you project your syndrome of needy co-dependent victim of narcissist onto the entire fandom and annoy everybody with your brainless infantile whining caused by your complexes from that shitty ending. In short, go on jerk off to your husband lord-spawn-fucker in chatbots with the rest of that concubine scum, and go play dollhouse with SIMS with [whited out]  and the gang. You're not an Astarion fan, and you're definitely not an AA fan. Just try not to drink yourself to death, you fucking cattle.”

The subject demonstrated a critically low level of intelligence (a literal interpretation of a well-known joke along the lines of “then take a hammer and smash my avatar on your device”). Not only is there a lack of understanding of basic human emotions (empathy toward Astarion is perceived as weakness, and a person showing it as a suitable target for bullying), but also of concepts such as sarcasm, context, and subtext. A joke from an opponent is interpreted as if the opponent were terribly offended and hurt, and the bully has “won.” “You’re definitely not an AA fan” in their circle means “you’re not a r4pe-gooner.” Unfortunately, it was precisely these kinds of people who went to the Larian forum demanding that the SA/DA scenes be brought back into the game. Something like this:

And on the forum (and this isn't her only post):

By the way, there is a scientific study that shows that people with pronounced traits of the Dark Triad (narcissism, psychopathy) will experience a “sweet” sensation when watching a character suffer.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886916309461#:~:text=The%20Dark%20Triad%20has%20been,%2C%20happy%2C%20and%20fearful%20stimuli

This, of course, doesn’t mean that tragedy can’t be enjoyed in fiction—of course, you can be captivated by any kind of story—but the fierce defense of the “correctness” of a bitter ending, in my view, does say something.

“In the current research, we were interested in the Dark Triad with respect to appropriateness of emotional response to sad, fearful, or happy stimulus. Previous studies have found that especially Machiavellianism and psychopathy have an association with schadenfreude, feeling happy about other's misfortune (Porter, Bhanwer, Woodworth, & Black, 2014). Further, narcissism relates to feeling positive when viewing sad faces, and psychopathy to feeling positive when viewing fearful faces (Wai & Tiliopoulos, 2012).”

BG3 is a game with great visuals and strong acting; the characters’ faces look lifelike, and someone with high affective empathy truly won’t be able to derive “emotional satisfaction” from the UA path. Narcissists, however, according to this study, will find pleasure in it:

Affective empathy is empathy at the emotional level—the ability to physically and emotionally sense the feelings of a loved one, to be “contagiously” affected by their state, and to experience their pain as if it were one’s own. It is based on the activity of mirror neurons, which activate the same brain regions (the insula and the anterior cingulate cortex) as when one experiences pain oneself.

“If you can’t handle the pain of another person—someone you love—that raises some serious questions.” (с) tamraspizz 

Cognitive neuroscience, neurobiology, and neurophysiology—which directly study the biological foundations of how nerve cells (neurons) function, which brain structures are involved, and which chemical processes underlie empathy—can answer this question. It is within the framework of these disciplines that mirror neurons were discovered and are being studied. The presence of affective empathy has never been considered—and is not considered—a mental disorder. However, its complete absence:

“One of the suggestions is that individuals high in the Dark Triad may understand the feelings that other individuals have (i.e., have cognitive empathy), but they don't show an appropriate emotional response to emotion-evoking stimulus (i.e., lack affective empathy; e.g., Wai & Tiliopoulos, 2012).”

The phrase itself — “If you can’t handle the pain of another person—someone you love—that raises some serious questions”—implicitly asserts that, when a solution exists (the ability to relieve a person’s pain), the “norm” is the ability to endure that pain. For the sake of… someone else’s “emotional satisfaction.” And the desire to use all available effective means to relieve a loved one’s pain is considered a deviation.

[tamraspizz]

This is a perfect example of someone who has run out of arguments: they start throwing around armchair diagnoses and insults, twisting their opponent's words, quoting them as evidence only to reinterpret those quotes to fit their own narrative, and even dragging aggressive anonymous messages into the discussion to make themselves look like the reasonable party.

[bloodless-sandpiper]

~ Astarion's Vampire "Family" Dynamics Pt. 2 ~ Why was Astarion the "family" scapegoat?

TW/CW: discussion of abuse, dysfunctional family dynamics, scapegoating

This is the second half of my examination of Astarion's vampire "family" through the lens of dysfunctional family dynamics. If you didn't read the first part, I would recommend starting there as it will provide context for what I'm talking about in this part. You can access it here.

In Part 1, I talked about how Astarion appears to fill the dysfunctional family role of the scapegoat. In this section, I'm going to explain my personal theories based on what we see in the game as to why Cazador placed him in that role. Just for clarification, I do not mean to imply that the scapegoat ever does anything to deserve this role - they do not. However, abusers will often find reasons to justify their treatment of the scapegoat, and looking with a psychological perspective at the information we have in game, I believe there are four main reasons Cazador chose Astarion. 

(Side note: I know there is a popular headcanon that Astarion looked like Cazador's former master, Vellioth, and that lead to Cazador's unique treatment of him. Although that would add another layer to their relationship, it's not part of my analysis.)

Astarion is strong-willed

Abusers feel extremely threatened by anyone who has a will of their own. Although Astarion mentions that he eventually stopped outwardly fighting against Cazador, it is clear that Cazador still sees him as defiant.  In his journal Cazador says the following about Astarion: 

“I ought not to be surprised - the boy has always been troublesome.  But to disappear now, when we are all but ready?  It is unconscionable, even for him.” (My emphasis)

“Astarion, standing in the sun’s light?  Willing and able to disobey me?” - That is Cazador’s emphasis, not mine. He’s less surprised by the fact that Astarion is willing to disobey him and more surprised by the fact that he is actually able to.

We only know of one big instance where Astarion outwardly defied Cazador, when he refused to bring him the “darling boy” and tried to run away.  That was a pretty big one, as he managed to break multiple rules in one go.  Astarion also mentions refusing to “dine” with Cazador when invited, which Cazador could view as defiant, and Astarion would get flayed as a result.  Since Astarion was one of the first spawn, he may have been the first to disobey like that, which may have sealed his fate as the scapegoat no matter who came after.  I think there’s still more to it, though.  

For one, abusers expect complete obedience to the point that they want willing obedience. There’s plenty of proof that even though Astarion was forced to follow orders, he did not do so eagerly:

When first talking about Cazador, Astarion says: “I was never able to resist [his] commands.”  He says this with a very sad, ashamed tone.  It’s not something he wanted or was proud of.  The fact that he says “never able” to resist also implies that he did try, at least at some point.    

A couple of Astarion’s siblings also have lines that imply he did not eagerly follow orders:

Petras: “You never liked following orders, brother.  That’s why you won’t ascend with the rest of us.”

Aurelia: “You always were pigheaded, brother.”

Astarion also maintained other aspects of his strong personality.  Although it probably comes out more once he’s free, both Cazador and the spawn have comments about Astarion talking a lot, being haughty, and being a smart ass. Cazador undoubtedly influenced his personality, but never managed to completely erase it, another sign that Astarion wasn’t fully broken.  

Astarion still has a lot of fighting spirit.  Just because he physically was unable to exercise it, and “did what [he] had to” in order to survive, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a spark lurking under the surface.  I think Cazador sensed that although Astarion was complying, his heart was not in it and knew that if he gave Astarion an inch he would fight back. And he’s right - it doesn’t take Astarion long after he’s free to start talking about how he’s going to kill Cazador. I think Astarion says it best himself if you tell him that Cazador broke him:

“No, he didn’t.  I am still here.  And I will fight him until I fight my last.” 

That type of attitude is extremely threatening to Cazador and a threat must be beaten down. 

Astarion sees through Cazador's BS

Scapegoats get the worst of the worst so they have no delusions about who the abuser really is. Astarion despises Cazador on a level that we don’t quite see with the other spawn. He spits his name out each time he says it and calls him “monster”, “bastard”, “insane”, etc. He has no loyalty towards him and no hesitation in spilling his dirtiest secrets to people he’s just met. He also enjoys mocking him - especially in the “exalted vampiric master” line - and makes it clear that while he fears Cazador and sometimes envies his power and freedom, he does not respect him.

You better believe Astarion was flipping off Cazador in his head at all times.

This is the exact opposite of how Cazador wants Astarion to see him. In Cazador’s world, Astarion should see him as his savior and benefactor and be grateful that Cazador “suffered” putting up with his imperfect self for so long.

Astarion also has enough awareness to recognize what Cazador is doing and why he does it. He knows that Cazador is obsessed with power and control and has no real justification beyond that for what he does. He even knows to some degree that Cazador never needed a reason to abuse him, which he’ll tell you if you ask him what he did to deserve eating bugs and rats:

“I existed. That was enough for him. He reveled in having power over me.” 

Astarion wasn’t drinking the Cazador Kool-Aid and whether he outwardly displayed that or not, an abuser like Cazador could sense it bubbling under the surface, another sign that Astarion is a threat to his total control.

We can also see this if we compare Astarion with his siblings. While he always uses the terms “brother”, “sister” and “family” sarcastically and with disdain, his “siblings" use them more seriously. Astarion sees the whole “family” narrative as the farce it is. The other spawn also believe that Cazador intends to set them free with the ritual, something that I can’t see Astarion buying even if he stayed with Cazador. And of course, there’s the most extreme case of Petras who thinks Cazador’s abuse was good for them.

Astarion is expressive

Even when Astarion is trying to hide his feelings, you can see moments where the mask drops and his true emotions show on his face. During his nightmare in his origin, he’ll attempt to force himself to smile when he thinks Cazador is coming, but his smile is more of a grimace and almost immediately reverts to a frown:

Not a very happy smile

His true feelings when the mask drops.

Cazador would undoubtedly see any moments of emotion Astarion failed to hide and consider them another sign of defiance if Astarion was showing the “wrong” emotion at any given time. Cazador even references Astarion’s “fits of temper” during their confrontation, implying that Astarion would sometimes lash out with emotion, perhaps even if it was just through showing an angry expression. 

As awful as it is, Cazador’s sadism could also play a role in why he particularly enjoys abusing Astarion. Since Astarion is so expressive, it could be “fun” for Cazador to rile him up because he knows he’ll get a reaction (with the added bonus of punishing him for said reaction after). We actually see him do that in the ritual chamber. Additionally, Cazador, Godey, and the spawn all mention that Astarion would react strongly to torture and that may have fed Cazador’s sadistic pleasure as well. Ugh.

Astarion is better than Cazador in many ways

Astarion has a lot of strengths. He is charming, witty, beautiful, and, as I already mentioned, has inner strength. Cazador can’t have that. He can’t have Astarion or the other spawn recognizing or capitalizing on these strengths without giving up even a sliver of his complete control. So, Cazador turns those strengths into weaknesses. Astarion’s humor and charm are turned into “tired jokes” and “endless prattle”. His confidence is turned to arrogance. He’s constantly called weak to detract from his strength. His beauty is weaponized against him, forcing him to use his body against his will and reducing it to the only quality he has. 

Cazador does acknowledge one other “strength” that Astarion has - “one of his few redeeming qualities is that he never trusts anyone.” Why would Cazador call that a strength? Because that quality is one that Cazador created in him and it keeps Astarion isolated and afraid, which allows Cazador to keep his control.

There is also another crucial trait that Astarion has over Cazador. After all he has been through, he is still capable of empathy and forming connections with others. I’m not saying Astarion is a paragon of empathy. He is perfectly capable of being selfish and even cruel. But the environment and conditioning Cazador forced on him was intended to crush every ounce of empathy out of him, and it still didn’t fully succeed. Astarion’s earliest “crime” when he saved the “darling boy” was because of that empathy and the ability to form connections with others. I think it’s significant that the first time he tried to run was to help someone else, not himself. Cazador knows this about Astarion as well. If you speak with him without Astarion present, Cazador will acknowledge Astarion’s relationship with his partner, call him a “sweet idiot” and mention using Tav/Durge as bait to lure Astarion to the palace because he knows Astarion will come looking for them. Cazador has completely lost his empathy and ability to connect with others. Even his “family” relationships are maintained through the threat of torture and literally forcing people to be with him. The fact that Astarion still hasn’t completely lost that ability is threatening, as with others on his side, Astarion may be able to gain some power. And ultimately it is Astarion’s ability to connect with the player as a friend or partner and his ability to still feel sympathy for Cazador’s other victims that leads him to be better than Cazador and break the cycle of abuse.

"I can be better than him."

In sum, Cazador targeted Astarion not because he was weak, but because he was strong.

I’ll end by mentioning how much I LOVE that Astarion, the black sheep, is ultimately the one to kill Cazador. Turns out Cazador was right to feel threatened by him after all! Ironically, in his endless efforts to break Astarion’s spirit, Cazador ended up just giving Astarion even more reasons to hate him, bringing about his own downfall, in a way. You love to see it. 

Thank you for reading and giving me a place to share my ramblings! I would love to hear your thoughts and appreciate every comment! 

"I am so much more than what you made me."

[michanvalentine]

I was taking screenshots for something completely different when this particular moment caught my eye.

In his Origin run, Radiant Hopeful Astarion chooses to save Baldur’s Gate and its people, even after having “lost the opportunity” to Ascend. He could still “make up for it” by dominating the Netherbrain and the world, becoming the Absolute and therefore truly untouchable, while keeping all the benefits of the tadpole. Yet his personal choice — and the choice supported by the game’s script — is to destroy it.

I’m not saying this to argue that Ascended Astarion isn’t convinced of his choice (this remains true regardless of my personal preferences and my own interpretation of Ascension). Rather, I’m saying that if he chooses to give up Ascension, he’s equally convinced of that choice and remains committed to it, regardless of whether he’s in a romance or not.

From the very beginning, Astarion frequently encouraged Tav/Durge to take control of the cult. Yet after confronting Cazador and coming to terms with himself, power is no longer his sole focus. He has reevaluated his priorities. For someone who once believed power was the only thing standing between him and safety, that choice says a great deal.

[bloodless-sandpiper]

CW/TW: general discussion of abuse

One of my favorite things about Astarion’s story is that there is absolutely no push for Astarion to forgive or understand his abuser. 

It’s true that we get a small glimpse into Cazador’s past, where we learn that he was once a victim in the centuries-old cycle of vampirism and abuse, but that’s all. It serves its purpose as showing that vampirism is a trap and warning of what can happen to Astarion if he goes through with the ritual, but does not excuse Cazador’s actions or go out of the way to make us feel sorry for him. The player may feel some sympathy for Cazador or they may not. None of the companions express any sympathy for him, Astarion doesn’t waver in his resolve to destroy Cazador despite learning of his past, and there are no options from the player to push any understanding or forgiveness on him.

Honestly, I find this refreshing. Getting a little personal here, but experiencing generational trauma both in my family and with my partner’s own horribly abusive dad, we’ve been told “oh, they didn’t know any better”, “they were abused too”, “you have to forgive them”, etc., more times than I can count, but the fact remains that even though our “Cazadors” were victims, they’ve moved on to causing pain themselves and have shown no genuine remorse. The game accurately shows that there is a point where a victim becomes a perpetrator and can become beyond redemption. I love that Astarion’s end of breaking the cycle does not include him forgiving or feeling sorry for Cazador, but with catharsis and closure that many survivors don’t get in real life.

I’ll end this little ramble with a screenshot from an interview with Neil in which I appreciate his take on this topic. Link to full interview here (try to overlook the typos in Astarion's name, lol).  And with a GIF of one of my favorite moments in any media, ever.

[michanvalentine]

I love Cazador. I love him because I love how he’s written, the role he plays within the story, and the influence he has on Astarion from a narrative perspective (and I absolutely, absolutely love making fun of him, lol).

I also love him because, much like Vellioth’s skull, he serves as a reminder of just how rotten the system is, and how escaping it may be the greatest act of kindness one can show oneself.

He’s powerful. He’s wealthy. He has others beneath him. He’s “free.”

And yet his thoughts show us quite the opposite.

Vellioth’s skull reveals that, as a spawn, he suffered a fate very similar to Astarion’s, only to eventually find himself regretting everything: the beast that never stops hungering, the man he once was, the boy he used to be.

Honestly, it breaks my heart.

But I would never, ever dream of justifying his actions.

That’s why Spawn Astarion’s arc is, to me, an arc of redemption: because even his suffering cannot justify the evil things he is capable of doing—and never should.

We can understand his pain. We can grieve for him. We can accompany him on his journey of self-discovery.

But we cannot justify him.

And I find it beautiful—and revealing—that Neil, in his interview, talks precisely about responsibility.

Every decision leads to an action, and every action leads to consequences. And all of us are called to take responsibility for our choices and to live with them.

Perhaps that’s exactly what makes this story so powerful: it doesn’t ask us to absolve monsters.

It asks us to observe how they are made.

And to ask ourselves whether someone can choose to be different.

And in the Spawn path, Astarion does exactly that. He becomes the first one in generations to break the cycle that trapped them all. He chooses to bear the cost himself instead of condemning others to pay it for him.

He is the first one to say: “My pain ends with me.”

I find that deeply cathartic.

And poetic, too.

[adrielmancy]

When people who have experienced abuse say that they relate to Astarion, they usually refer to some of the most popular lines, such as: "Being with someone still feels... tainted. Still brings up those feelings of disgust and loathing." or "I had nothing for so long. Not even my own body."

And while hearing those when I first played the game has absolutely crushed me and made me feel understood, there is another conversation that speaks to me on a deeper level.

I've been thinking about the pale elf for months and years now, but I think I have finally figured out the core of what makes him so important to me and why are we the same in some aspects when it comes to trauma.

I will get into the ugly personal stuff, so mind your triggers. CW for sexual assault, physical abuse, bullying, PTSD, trauma response

The conversation you have with Astarion when you meet his siblings during the long rest, when they attempt to kidnap him and bring him back to Cazador, hides one line that just shakes me to my core and that I have recently realized is why I relate to Astarion in such a major way in terms of my own personal response to the traumatic events in my life.

Not long ago, I had an intense therapy session, where we discussed why is my body shutting down, why is it essentially playing dead (now literally in the physical sense, as my entire nervous system tends to give up on me). And my therapist showed me a video of an impala being attacked by a cheetah – the impala will lie completely still to avoid being attacked; basically, it freezes and plays dead. In the video, the animal literally looks dead; it's not breathing, moving, or blinking. After the predator leaves the vicinity, only then it starts breathing again and slowly gets up; it almost looks like it's hyperventilating after seemingly not breathing at all for a long time.

Why am I saying this in this parallel? For humans (or humanoids, if you will), it's very similar to the freeze response in terms of trauma. A biological reaction that is supposed to protect your body and mind – just like it protects the impala from getting eaten.

The freeze has been a source of shame for me for many years. Whenever I talk to people about how I was bullied in kindergarten and throughout the ages of 6 to 10 years old, they often tell me I should have just fought harder – I should have reported the kids who beat and hurt me, I should have been louder, more aggressive, more annoying about it. I got similar responses when describing how I was sexually assaulted. I should have just tried to fight more, instead of just lying there and giving up after my fighting back did not yield results. Right.

That brings me to this scene.

You have the option to confront Astarion with the fact that he also, in a way, gave up. He did Cazador's bidding; he also eventually just lay there and waited for death that wasn't coming.

For me to tell him that is very painful, because once again, seeing it through another character's eyes makes me feel compassion that I'm unable to feel towards myself. Where I feel shame and weakness in myself, I see strength and resilience in him. It's funny how brains work.

I don't really have anything smart and witty to say here. I haven't yet figured out how to not feel angry and sad when I feel powerless. But I want to make the point that victim-shaming is such a huge part of what's wrong with this world. There would be more cases of reported domestic or sexual abuse, or also, like in my case, bullying, including getting beaten up and tortured on a daily basis – if only the people who are in a position to help didn't dismiss that with "You should have fought harder." To quote a different character this time: "You do it. I'm tired."

I think this line is actually the one out of the whole conversation that breaks me. Because he scoffs, he's not visibly angry, he's not sad, he smirks bitterly. Oh, I feel that in my bones.

Sometimes fighting back just becomes impossible. Either physically – you run out of physical strength – or mentally, when you just can't keep it up anymore, it's been too long, it never ends.

Astarion's story is, above all, about autonomy and the constant oscillation between what power and weakness mean to him. In this scene, he's doing such mind parkour between regressing, blaming others, and between accepting himself, learning to live with the impossible memory of all those times when he couldn't fight anymore.

I'm not going to go into a deep analysis of Spawn/Ascended Astarion and how ascension kills his only chance at healing that part of his past. Because, in a way, I get it – the delusion that if you become powerful enough, you never have to face this shame ever again. (Sorry to say, it doesn't seem to be working all that well, heh.)

So I'm going to end this with my beloved meme that's for both me and him and everyone whose mind also stubbornly refuses to accept that sometimes there is no way out. And freezing in place is sometimes protecting you from something far worse, starting with getting your bones broken and ending with death in any meaning of the word. OK, YAY.

[michanvalentine]

This post is heartbreaking, but also incredibly important for what it says.

The freeze response is not cowardice.

It is not failure.

It is one of the oldest defense mechanisms our brains and bodies possess. It is the mind desperately trying to keep us alive when neither fighting nor fleeing is possible.

And I find your reflection on shame incredibly powerful.

I sincerely hope that one day you’ll be able to look at yourself with the same kindness and admiration that you so naturally extend to him.

You’re a strong person. Incredibly strong.

A big hug. <3

[seventhousandreasons]

There is an interpretation that Neil Newbon's comments about Spawn Astarion's "freedom and joy" are merely a concession to a certain part of the audience, and that the actor himself is ironically mocking the "good" ending.

Supporters of this theory point to Astarion's dance in his Origin ending. Neil's statement that this movement symbolizes "the joy that he's now finally in control of his life" is reinterpreted to frame the scene solely as a display of bloodlust and predatory triumph. It is a clear example of how the broader narrative context can be pushed aside in favor of reinforcing the idea that the character never truly changes.

But if we look at the available interviews from Neil Newbon and the animation director, Greg Lidstone, the intent behind the scene is more nuanced than that.

Baldur's Gate 3 Devs Share How Neil Newbon Influenced Astarion's Ending

Larian tells us how actor Neil Newbon influenced Astarion's Origin ending, giving it a more positive spin.

Lidstone explicitly states that they originally recorded Astarion walking off "like a predator," and Neil himself rejected it. He insisted that "it doesn't feel right" and that "it's not the character."

"I thought, well, that seems weirdly contrary to his experience over the whole of the game," Neil says.

The Spawn route is framed as a path of freedom and joy, with the dance representing Astarion finally being in control of his body and his choices. It's the emotional lightness that comes when 200 years of terror no longer define every aspect of his existence. Rather than framing the scene as a simple predator's victory dance, Neil describes it in terms of liberation and agency. The dance becomes less about predatory anticipation and more about the emotional release of someone who no longer lives entirely through fear.

Yes, Astarion approaches a bound victim in this scene, but his words from the epilogue offer a clearer picture of how he chooses to direct his predatory nature. He isn't framed as hunting purely out of predatory thrill or a desire to dominate; he has adopted the cynical but practical ethics of an adventurer. As he puts it:

"I've taken a turn as an adventurer and hero. It turns out no one actually cares about murder, as long as you murder the right people. And apparently I'm rather good at it."

When Neil adds with a laugh that he's "still a predatory vampire, but a nice one," that's not him mocking fans. He's highlighting the irony of a creature built for killing who has reclaimed his autonomy enough to choose a "positive way" to exist. The dance isn't primarily about feeding; it's framed as the joy of someone who is finally in control of his own life.

It is also interesting to observe how Neil's "shades of gray" thesis is sometimes used to justify the claim that Astarion remains static regardless of the ending. References to "realistic acting" and the absence of a "black and white" morality are often presented as proof that there is no moral distance between Ascension and the path of recovery.

However, when Neil speaks of "every conceivable combination of situations" and "shades of gray," he is emphasizing the complexity of Astarion's nature, not a lack of growth.

Baldur's Gate 3 Interview: Neil Newbon Talks Astarion and the Art of Performance Capture

Astarion isn't a monolithic, static character. Neil describes him as:

"Every conceivable possible combination of every situation that the character can face. It wasn't just Ascended or quote-unquote 'good,' better, or whatever Astarion. It was all the different shades of gray in between."

In both Ascension and the Spawn path, Astarion remains a "trauma sufferer" and a "survivor." The difference isn't that he "healed and forgot," but in how he processes that trauma: through perpetuating the cycle of pain (Ascension) or attempting to heal (Spawn).

Reducing Astarion to a static archetype risks flattening not only the writing, but also the performance work that gives those different paths their emotional texture. Neil doesn't have a "preferred" canon, but he also described the routes as "two different characters," emphasizing how differently players respond to them:

"To see people's reactions to these two different characters… if you find him scary when he has ascended, you should. He's terrifying. But other people might really like that ending for the character and feel, 'Actually, I saw Astarion always going that route,' whereas others might want to help him redeem himself, or help him not only survive, but thrive in a positive way."

Neil consistently frames the Ascended path as something meant to be unsettling, not as an aspirational or "correct" ending for "real gamers." He consistently speaks about Astarion through the framework of trauma and survival. Reducing the entire depth of his performance to "he's just a predator and everything else is nonsense" flattens the complexity of the performance to a single angle.

One important distinction often overlooked in these interpretations is that choosing the Spawn path isn't about trying to turn Astarion into a "saint" or a "cuddle-bug."

The transformation in this ending isn't about him suddenly becoming "good." It's about him becoming self-aware enough to consciously direct his predatory instincts rather than being governed entirely by fear and survival conditioning.

He stops being a victim who projects violence simply because he knows no other way. He gains maturity. His predatory nature hasn't vanished—it is now governed by his own will. As Neil puts it: "He's still a predatory vampire, but a nice one." This is a predator who can choose where that violence is directed, rather than being driven purely by fear or conditioning.

No one is arguing that Astarion can't be evil. He can, and that's part of what makes the character compelling. The issue is treating fundamentally different narrative outcomes as interchangeable "interpretations." The two paths aren't framed the same. That difference matters. He doesn't become a saint as a Spawn, but he does change. That change is the point of the arc. You're free to enjoy any version of the character. But enjoyment doesn't redefine what the story is doing.

[tamraspizz]

Narrative of the BG3 and Astarion’s endings. A discussion in the comments. I’m saving this for myself and sharing it with you, as this is a very important point for my research.

Before I begin responding to your comment, I'd like to ask one question.

Why are you comparing the drawbacks of one ending only to the advantages of the others? Whether intentionally or not, you present the situation as though some endings have only benefits while others have only downsides, when that simply isn't the case.

That is precisely why I still hold the view that, to one degree or another, depending on the choices we make, every character pays a price for their chosen path — whether that choice leads to a good ending or a bad one.

Lae'zel. In her good ending, she can lead a rebellion and fight for the liberation of her people. It sounds noble and inspiring, but what does it actually mean in practice? It means taking part in a war against an immortal lich—a conflict that will inevitably bring bloodshed and countless casualties. Still, perhaps she will succeed; one can only hope so. Did she lose anything on this path? Absolutely. Her entire worldview was shattered, along with her faith in Vlaakith. She pays that same price if she chooses to remain with us in Faerûn.

In the bad ending, Lae'zel undergoes Ascension while remaining loyal to Vlaakith and her ideology. What price does she pay for clinging to those old, imposed beliefs? Her own life.

Shadowheart. This is actually where I think it's especially noticeable how conveniently you're glossing over the uncomfortable parts. Your words were: "Shadowheart is perfectly happy on Selûne’s path." And that's it? Not quite.

She pays a price on this path just as she does on any other.The path of Selûne is about accepting the truth, rebuilding lost connections, and gaining the ability to choose her own destiny. Choosing Shar, on the other hand, means remaining dependent on a goddess who spent years manipulating her, erasing her memories, and shaping her identity to serve her own interests. Just like Lae'zel, Shadowheart remains loyal to beliefs that were imposed on her by someone else.

If she rejects Shar, saves her parents, and embraces Selûne, Shar curses her and condemns her to ongoing suffering. Pain is the price she pays. She also receives a final «gift» from Shar: the memories of every time she caused pain and suffering to her parents.

If she chooses Shar and kills her parents, then their loss is the price she pays, along with the loss of her personal freedom and a significant part of her identity.

«Gale is just fine, even without the Crown of Karsus» — again, it’s not that simple. What do we actually see in practice?

Professor Gale, cured of the orb in his chest, represents a «good» ending. The price of this path, as you yourself indirectly pointed out, is the rejection of the Crown of Karsus — his ambitions, his pursuit of power, and his dream of becoming something greater. Ascended Gale — what does he pay here? Gale gives in to his ambitions (and insecurities), which ultimately leads to the loss of his humanity (to put it briefly).

Karlach. In her «good» ending, she survives and returns to Avernus. The price is literally living in Hell, in conditions of constant war and danger. To reject this path leads to her «bad» ending — her death.

And finally, Wyll. The most «well-developed» character, according to his writer Kevin VanOrd:

«There was a key situation near Baldur's Gate that I intended to heavily involve Wyll in (the Red War College) that got cut», «We eventually tied him to Duke Ravengard and started to work on that element of his arc just in time for me to get unexpectedly ill. I was out of the office for quite a while, and again after the epilogue's release», «All that said, I love the Blade and I am really proud of him, his sincerity, his good nature, and his eager heroism. I'm truly sorry I didn't give you more quality time with him». Still, let’s look at his endings:

Wyll remains bound by his contract with Mizora + saves his father. The price — his freedom.

Wyll breaks his contract with Mizora + saves his father. The price — Mizora no longer provides him with demonic power.

The Duke path — rejection of the life of an adventuring hero, more restrictions, less freedom of action, i.e. freedom in exchange for duty. This is the same kind of “price” as in his other ending — being sent to Avernus, a life of constant struggle and danger.

By the way, Lae’zel and Wyll were written by the same writer.

The narrative of BG3 is quite transparent and clearly present in the stories of most companions: either remain loyal to old imposed beliefs, ideology, gods, masters, or ambitions; or try to break free from their shackles, whether physical or psychological, or both. So why does everything suddenly «break» in Astarion’s case?

So, Astarion. The Spawn path is a rejection of Ascension, a rejection of the beliefs imposed on him by Cazador during 200+ years of slavery, and a liberation from his control, along with personal growth—as described by his writer, Rooney: «Because it has that sense of he's learned how to care about someone who's gone on this adventure with you». This implies that, on the opposite path, he does not gain this, or he loses it.

Astarion gains freedom and remains himself: «This feels more me». The price is a return to vampiric limitations after the fall of the Absolute. But, as the game itself suggests, this is something that can be dealt with  together in the future.

The Ascension path — power, dominance, a beating heart, sunlight that no longer burns, hunger that no longer torments him (although he still drinks blood). On the surface, it seems like nothing but advantages, doesn’t it? Doesn’t it also feel a bit too simple compared to the endings of other characters? Especially for a character with such a complex backstory as Astarion’s. Of course, it’s not that simple.

The price for all of this is the loss of his personal growth, a complete rejection of his former self, and the reinforcement of Cazador’s teachings within his identity. Rooney says: «..the more evil ending where he gets greedy, he’s power hungry, he becomes essentially a vampire lord». «becomes» implies that he was not like that before the ritual. Add to this the implied plans — such as a desire to plunge the world into shadows (isn’t there a contradiction here with his desire to bask in the sun?) and the fact that he is perfectly willing to strip even his beloved of what he himself has gained.

Here is what Astarion himself says if he rejects the ritual: «I could feel something slipping away. I came so close to losing myself, losing everything I've learned since meeting you».

Thus, your claim «By helping Astarion Ascend, I am not depriving him of anything—absolutely nothing» — is fundamentally incorrect. Unless, of course, you consider the loss or distortion of one’s identity to be insignificant. But I doubt that would be the case for Astarion.

In this case, I rather like Runi’s words: «I think he’s probably happiest straddling the line between good and bad». In my opinion, this perfectly applies to Spawn’s path.

«I despise the idea of I can fix him» — again, you’re missing the point. Growing as a person is not the same as «fixing» someone. Astarion remains himself — that very morally grey character we originally loved him for, right? It feels like you’re conflating concepts again.

«it s perfectly normal to have different tastes when it comes to preferred endings» — I fully agree with that. However, idealizing one route while ignoring its obvious downsides is… strange. As is treating a writer’s statements as merely a personal opinion or preference, because that is not quite accurate either.

Let me remind you that Rooney is a professional writer, and his opinion is not based on a simple «I just like it that way». It is much deeper than that. In creating Astarion’s arc, he relied on principles of dramaturgy, trauma psychology, and the internal logic of character development («need vs. want» and so on). So yes, we can interpret what happens in the game however we like — but does that change the author’s intent? No. He chooses the ending based on his professional design and understanding of the character, not on «I want tragedy, I want angst».

That is precisely why everything Rooney says reflects his understanding of the character as the author.

«I prefer genuine emotional satisfaction rather than reveling in the suffering of a beloved character». Here, for example, you are quite selectively framing the wording. In Rooney’s interview, there was nothing about «reveling in the suffering» of a character. On the contrary, he notes that the Spawn ending is «emotionally satisfying, emotionally true». The way you phrase it makes it sound as though Rooney prefers the Spawn ending because of «suffering for the sake of suffering», but again, that is not the case. I think this kind of approach to an author’s words is not entirely respectful towards the creators from the players’ side.

[seventhousandreasons]

Interviewer: Since we are there, I'am curious what it was like writing so many different romance arcs? It does affect certain things. I was curious, how did those come about? Who did you talk to? How did you make it logically consistent within the world? And was there a particular story that you liked, that you thought was is the way should have gone?

Stephen Rooney: We had a narrative director come in, they then went on to write the Dark Urge, but kind of to work on the romance stuff, specifically with the different origins. So I worked with them on figuring out and they came in kind of later in the project. We had already started some of the romances, but maybe kind of polishing out the romance arcs, and making sure that they were fun, making sure they were interesting.

With Astarion, how you go about romancing him is difficult kind of itself. He's such a flirt, he has such kind of energy of someone who's trying to seduce you. Basically it is what he's doing all the time to everybody. So how you take that and then how you flip it to a genuine romance was fairly challenging, because you had such a strong mask that he would wear the entire time.

And, as you romance Astarion, you can romance the more good version, the more good ending of his story, where he stays a vampire spawn. Spoilers, if anyone hasn't played the game in the last two or three years, the more evil ending where he gets greedy, he's power hungry, he becomes essentially a vampire lord, he kind of replaces Cazador, and I definitely perfer the first one. Like it has that bittersweet energy that I love so much. Because it has that sense of he's learned how to care about someone who's gone on this adventure with you. He had all of this because he reverts to kind of a normal vampire spawn at the end of it, he loses his ability to walk in the sun. He loses a lot of the cool stuff that has made him an unusual for a vampire spawn. There's a tragedy that I really love, but it feels kind of emotionally satisfying, emotionally true.

I am biased, I ended up taking kind of bunch of sick leave towards the end of the project, so the same writer that did the Dark Urge did some of Astarion's kind of more Ascended arc romance stuff. I tried to go over as much of it as i could, but I definitely perfer the other arc.

Interview with the Lead Writer for Astarion from BG3

[litsenn]

Hi, I hope it's alright to ask your thoughts on something about Astarion. I just think your posts always show a very deep understanding of Astarion as a character, especially in regards to his complicated views on sex and intimacy, and I really appreciate and respect your analyses. I'm only on my second playthrough, so I like to hear from people who have played a lot more than I have.

I’ve been thinking a lot about Astarion’s state of mind in the first sex scene in act one (I'm currently writing about it). The more I think about it, his experience seems to be a very complex mixture of both positive and negative that exist simultaneously. These are just some of my current personal thoughts (all of this in the context of the PC being someone who treats him well and is generally a good person):

This is the first time he's getting to have sex on his own terms in 200 years, and that's probably liberating, in a slightly terrified and overwhelmed way. He is likely trying to convince himself that he feels more empowered and in-control than he actually does, because he needs that feeling. 

He knows the PC better than he ever knew any of his past targets, but he doesn’t yet believe that they truly care about him, either.

The sex ends up meaning more to him than he thought it would, but I also imagine it isn't exactly enjoyable for him, given his dissociation, feelings of disgust, and the fact that this was all just supposed to be an act. 

He is also probably struggling to reconcile the fact that he’s growing to genuinely like the PC with his belief that they are fetishizing him (this also connects with your incredible post about Astarion’s feelings about feeding on the PC at this point, and how biting during sex can be enjoyable for him, though still uncomfortable in that he views it as transactional) 

He feels like his performance here is important to his survival, because in his mind he is using sex as currency to get the PC on his side. The transactional nature of it is probably comfortable in its familiarity, yet no less disgusting for him.

 So what I’m ultimately trying to ask is: 

In your opinion, how much of this experience feels positive to him vs negative? 

Which of the feelings mentioned above do you think are at the forefront of his mind going into the encounter? Which ones “win out” over others? Are there more factors I forgot / didn’t list?

(I hope I made this sound somewhat coherent. I’ve had a hard time articulating my thoughts about this scene.)

First of all, thank you so much for your kind words 😭 I’m always very touched when people say they enjoy reading my stuff. I don’t know if my understanding of the character is so relevant, all I can say is that I relate to him on many levels, and therefore I analyse him from my personal perspective. Which also means that my posts are just one interpretation among many others.

Now, concerning this scene, there’s a lot to unpack. And I first have to say that there is no clear answer to the question "Did he enjoy it or not?". IMO, it will always be yes and no. And I'm only offering a personal analysis of this ambivalent situation.

Proceed at your own discretion because I’m going to talk about trauma, SA, sex-work and complicated relations to sex in general. Be careful.

Please, keep in mind that al of this is pure speculation (and forgive the typos😅)(and this post is long and chaotic, sorry).

I globally agree with all your points, and I love that you mentioned the complexity of his feelings during this scene. We can all agree that he has contradictive feelings about sex in Act 1. It's not just disgust, not just hedonism, not just attraction, not just manipulation: it's all of this and more.

And that’s one of the things I love about the writing of this character.

Sex is always complex (for everyone) but for survivors it’s even more complicated. And I love that Astarion’s narrative stands against the “perfect victim” tropes and the idea that SA survivors are incapable of enjoying sex. Despite the decades of SA, Astarion still enjoys it and wants it, but his desire is tainted with self-loathing, with fear. He deals with those through defence mechanisms and what I’d call “automatisms” from his former experiences and obligations.  

That's why before I answer your questions, I want to add one point which can also work as a foreword to the rest of the post: Astarion is attracted to the PC.

He says it during the confession scene, and there's no reason for him to lie at this point. Likewise, if the PC tells him they can be together without having sex, he's indeed relieved, pleasantly surprised, but he jests about it being a challenge.

I think there's some truth in those words: it will be somehow challenging. First because sex is the only kind of intimacy he's known for 200 years; it's will be difficult to "quit the habit", to discover and get used to new ways to get close to someone. Secondly, because he does find the PC attractive and probably wants to be able to have sex with them without feeling bad about it.

After all, it seems like he enjoyed sex very much before Cazador turned him, since at the beginning, he thought he could still enjoy having sex with his targets.

Meaning sex wasn’t something that disgusted him before all this. He might be able to remember (deep down) that sex can be 100% enjoyable.

Yet, it doesn’t necessarily means he’s now incapable of enjoying it; it only means that it’s going to be more complicated. He needs to rediscover how to fully enjoy it again – on his own terms – now that he’s free to give his consent.

Take the brothel scene for instance; if the PC has sex with Astarion and the Drow twins after dealing with Cazador, he's at first very excited about it. And I don't see any lie here, he's genuinely enthusiastic.

Unfortunately, during the orgy, he realises that it’s not for him ( not yet at least). Being with many people, and/or with someone that is not the PC is still an experience that triggers his trauma. But he didn't know that, he wasn't expecting his trauma to manifest. He wanted to do it, he wanted to enjoy it.

Not only he falls back into his old mechanism: sex as a performance, Astarion as an entertainer who must give the best performance to his partners, paying no attention to his own desire and needs. Followed by dissociation, which is something that happen automatically. You don't decide to dissociate. It's your brain switching off because the reality is too uncomfortable. It's survival.

Anyways, this bad experience is typical of what can happen to someone who's healing. It's normal. You want to explore your sexuality, and sometimes it works perfectly well, and sometimes not. That’s what healing is about. It's not linear, and sometimes it's messy.

It is true that some SA survivors are perpetually sex revulsed. And some of them become sex-addicts. And for most of them, it’s somewhere in-between. Still capable of enjoying sex VERY MUCH, but also finding themselves disgusted by sex sometimes for reasons they can’t really explain. There’s no rule as to how survivors experience sexual attraction. 

All of this to say that it is clear to me that Astarion experience sexual attraction, that he is attracted to the PC and that even in Act 1, an important part of him wants to have sex with the PC.

Back to your points.

Control, habits and defence mechanisms

I like how you said he “is likely trying to convince himself that he feels more empowered and in-control than he actually does, because he needs that feeling.”

There’s definitely something in his mind that still thinks as a slave, something which believes that he must have sex to be safe. Because it was the case for as long as he can remember.

Seducing people, sleeping with them without thinking about his own needs, that's part of his habitus. His body has been a tool for so long that he still sees it as such.

It’s ingrained in his mind, and even if he’s regaining his agency, some of the seeds planted by Cazador persist in his mind (and will until the Act 2 confession). Astarion says it himself, it's instinctive. And as you put it, it's somehow comfortable, it's charted territories.

A part of him tells him his only value relies on his sexual skills. Therefore he associates sex to a “safety net”. But he probably hasn’t acknowledged that yet in act 1; he prefers to lie to himself and to pretend he’s sleeping with the PC because he has become the puppet master. It's easier to think that way. But in fact, it was just a automatism, his survival instinct. So even if he’s really attracted to the PC, Astarion is still driven by fear and by a need to control how the PC feels about him (precisely because he's so afraid to lose control over the situation). And sex is the perfect tool for that. His body is the perfect tool.

[I can recall a few numbers of times when I had sex with people while lying to myself and pretending I 100% wanted it, pretending I was the one in control, when in fact, I had sex with those persons for reasons that had nothing to do with my own desire. It doesn't mean I didn't find them attractive, it doesn't mean I regret having sex with them, but it still means that my motivations weren’t what I thought they were, that my decision to have sex was still controlled by something else in my mind, something different from my actual desire. I acknowledged it months and sometimes years later.]

When Astarion welcomes the PC in the clearing, he’s performing. When I say he’s performing, I mean in the way he presents himself as as a person craving for sex, and he expresses his desire as such. He puts on the mask of the “mysterious sexy vampire”, keeping his voice low and his smirk sharp. He plays his part, the one he's played for years. He pretends to be the lover he thinks the PC wants him to be, the overly seductive vampire with his exaggerated declarations.

I think there are several ways to explain why he feels the need to perform:

It has always worked with his target up to now

That's the only way he knows

The exaggeration is also a shield behind which he can hide his vulnerabilities

Let me explain that last point : Saying a simple “I’m attracted to you, I want to be with you tonight”, without all the grandiloquence, is not something he would do at this point (even if that's how he feels), because that would make him look vulnerable. That would mean being honest with himself and with you, letting you see his raw desire, so to speak. It would feel too real (I purposely insist on that word and you all know why), and it's easier to exaggerate the whole thing and to pretend to be the hedonistic and over-the-top vampire. After all, he’s confident, he’s been doing that for years. He knows it works. He knows he’s hard to resist.

But when you think about it, he's obviously lying, saying he wanted this to happen since his first meeting with the PC... Come on, the first time they met he was ready to kill them.

It's a lovely lie, just like the "I love you" during his second proposition for sex (I talked about it here), but when you look into it, it's far grimmer.

Once more, there's a parallel between sex and death: "to have you"= Killing you. I already talked about that connection here, so I'll just quote myself: "It's possible to see Astarion's offer to kill you as a foreshadowing of him offering you to have sex with you. And considering what sex means to him at this point of his life - a tool to manipulate, which can lead to his partners to death - the parallel between the two in early act 1 makes a lot of sense to me."

But oh! µTav/Durge survived that first night with him! The PC is still here in the morning! That's new! It never happened to him before, waking up next to his partner. He needs to control this unusual and terrifying experience! Quick!

So I tend to think that the little remark about the PC being loud all night falls along those lines. He displays his (exaggerated) hedonistic and over-confident part of his persona, as a way to reassert that he’s the one in control. As if saying, reminding them: "I made you (the leader of the group) scream all night because I decided to, and everybody knows about it. I’m the one calling the shots.” 

But I think it's also as way to hide how he really feels about that night. So instead of opening up and saying how he feels about it, he teases the PC about their own enjoyment. Another defence mechanism.

And yet, the mask cracks a little bit when he asks if the PC wants to lose themselves in him; he suddenly looks terribly sad…

he asks for a consent he was never able to give before that

That’s probably a line he’s said thousands of times before and those who agreed did get lost… in death

It brings him back to the feeling of being a toy for others to enjoy, for people to use so they can "lose themselves"

The look on his face here is what he's trying to hide during this scene. He's wearing that mask (which will come back later if you ascend him), because he needs to protect himself. I'm not even sure if he acknowledges it at this point. It's an automatism.

But I believe that, as the night unfolds, he finds himself enjoying it.

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to feel like he’s getting more like his playful and silly self when you let him bite you. Whereas if you trust him to not bite, he keeps on performing, in control, like he was told to do by Cazador. 

If you let him bite you, you roll on the ground and he looks pleasantly surprised. And I think he starts to have fun here.

(Shadowheart, please)

And I think he can enjoy it even if he dissociates. As I said, the switch is automatic when the brain finds itself in a situation that represents some kind of danger or discomfort. For two hundred years, Astarion experienced sex in a way that was all but comfortable, sex he didn’t really want. It makes sense that his brain automatically switches off. Even though he’s having a good time here, intimacy itself is a trigger, no matter how much he's enjoying it. It’s instinctive, just like flirting is instinctive to him, paradoxically.

And I find the way he explains it quite interesting: he pretends it’s because of his bloodlust, because he didn't want to get carried away.

You see in his eyes that he’s lying. And I kinda like it because it’s sooo relatable. Finding excuses to justify dissociation or plain detachment during sex? yeah, that something I did, with answers along those lines: “I didn’t want to hurt you/I didn’t want to be too intense/I didn’t want to be too loud/I didn't want to scare you/I'm a little tired/etc."

And I still think he enjoys it even if he’s not 100% into it. He keeps his distance (mentally, emotionally) and it’s normal because he’s careful, because he doesn’t really know how to let go. And (healthy, happy) sex is about letting go completely, it‘s about trusting someone and allowing yourself to be completely free from your mental and physical restrains and automatisms.

It’s easy to understand why he can’t fully let go: he’s afraid, because he’s not 100% sure he can enjoy this, because he doesn't know how the PC will behave, and because he must be in control to feel safe.

His body knows how it works, so he lets his body act automatically,  that body which have danced the same dance thousands of time. He doesn’t have to think and it’s easier not to think. Easier and apparently safer than following his true desires. Here again, it's an automatism: his body knows, he can switch his mind off, protecting it from potential bad memories, protecting him from his own desire and feelings, protecting him from the temptation of being himself.

He can’t let go, he has to be in control. if only to make sure he will offer his partner the best performance. Even if he's enjoying the moment because the PC is respectful, playful, gentle or whatever you imagine for this first night, he can't let go.

As you said, he’s convinced the PC is only here for his looks – But think about it: Astarion himself never offered anything other than sex, he didn’t pretend he was in love with the PC. He only offered his body. By doing so, he's also protecting himself from potential feelings (theirs or his) of attachment and affection.

It's like saying “Don’t get attached to me. It’s just SEX”. He pulls up his own walls to keep the PC outside. It's another contradiction: he suffers from being seen as a beautiful and shallow individual who’s only good for sex, but he says upfront that he won’t give more than sex. He keeps the PC away (emotionally) while suffering from it. That’s another defence mechanism, combined with the fact that he probably still sees himself as a "mean to an end" (unconsciously), unable to see that he can be someone else than the "hedonistic and heartless vampire."

Besides, it's probable that he doesn’t believe it’s even possible for anyone to care about him. So he anticipates a potential emotional disappointment by saying that it’s only sex, convincing himself as much as to convince the PC that there’s nothing more to expect from it.

Positive/negative experience

You asked how much of this experience feels positive to him vs negative. Let's recap.

Positive feelings:

Excitement (first time having sex on his own terms + he’s attracted to the PC)

Physical pleasure (sex + blood if the PC lets him bite them)

Fun

A sense of freedom

Relief and a sense of pride (they fell into his trap)

A newfound affection (they trust him, they respect him)

Good surprise (he can still have fun while having sex!)

The PC being who they are (more about this later)

Negative feelings:

A sense of obligation

Fear

PTSD

The need to perform and make sure they enjoy it

Habits that make him serve instead of just enjoy the moment

Guilt

Shame

Confusion

Disgust

Feeling of being used (even if the PC isn't exactly "using him"; they accept his offer and they're not to be blamed for it)

One could think that the negative feelings are more important, and true, those bad feelings can be destructive. But I don’t think the unbalance is so evident, maybe because the positive feelings are all completely new to him, therefore they may be particularly powerful.

But in fact, they're all entangled and messy, and I believe Astarion himself can’t really make sense of them.

And later, he sums it up all on his own.

What we know, is that a few days later, he remembers that night as a good experience. And exceptionally good experience.

And tbh I think that’s what matters: What he makes of this night, how he digests and, remembers it, and how he looks back at it. It was special. Special enough for him to admit it.

He admits it feels different with you, it feels good with you -- but he can't yet get rid of the negative feelings sneaking in the back of his mind, ruining what should be a lovely moment.

As for the main feeling at the forefront of his mind… I don’t think it would be one feeling, but more a motivation: “I must stay in control” (whether he succeeded is up to discussion). In the end, I think he manages to suppress his main fears, to keep a certain distance, while at the same time finding himself surprised to be enjoying it.

Questionable motivations and enjoyment

As a SA survivor myself and a former sex-worker, there are so many things that fall close to home both in terms of ptsd, of performance and habitus. I perfectly see how desire, obligations, attraction and disgust can mingle until they become difficult to set apart. {Mind you, I’m not saying that sex-work and sex-abuse are one and the same, far from it. One can be a sex-worker and have never been abused].

In the case of Astarion, he’s first and foremost a survivor, and even if he compares himself to a prostitute a few times, he had no choice in doing it. Therefore, it's not sex-work, it’s human trafficking.

Yet, it's still transactional, and just like a sex-worker, he had to perform, to let the partner(/client) believe that he wanted them, that he wanted it, that he was enjoying it, even when it wasn’t the case. Remember how he made Sebastian believe he was head over heels for him.

During the first night with the PC, Astarion decides to have sex without anyone forcing him to do it. But he doesn’t do it out of sheer lust and attraction. He does it because he wants to keep himself safe and he thinks that’s the only way. Which is, imo, closer to what a sex-worker would do: having sex for money because they need that money to pay the rent or whatever they need to survive. No one is forcing them, except the material conditions and (in Astarion’s case at least) cognitive bias (the belief that he’s “only good at that”) + long terms habits.

And just like a SW, he has to make them believe that he's totally into it (believe me, client don't enjoy it as much if the SW doesn't pretend to be attracted to them).

Look at him, he’s performing. He's said those lines multiples times before. Even the movement of his hand: it’s theatrical. It’s planned and calculated.

This too is instinctive. He's done that for years and he is good at it.

Look at the shift, look how easy it is for him to put on a smiling face to "open a lot of doors" (and legs).

And after pretending to be attracted to those persons, he had to pretend sleeping with them didn't affect him. That too falls close to home.

That line in particular. SO FUCKING RELATABLE IT HURTS.

In my experience, there had been bad experiences. But you go on, because you need to. And to protect your own sanity, you stick to the idea that it's fine, that you can do that again. That it doesn't matter.

But it does matter.

And yet....

In the case of SW (which should always be consensual), being with a client can be a nice experience. Some clients are attractive, some clients are very sweet and respectful, some clients are very good fucks, some clients are all of this (and some clients are bastards but we’re not talking about them here). In any case, they are still clients. As a SW, I didn’t see them as potential ‘real’ lovers, and I wouldn’t have considered sleeping with them in any other situation. It doesn’t mean the experience was bad. I had genuine O with some clients and really enjoyed the company of some of them.

It seems contradictory, but it's real.

Back to Astarion: at the beginning of the meeting it ultimately starts with a performance, like the SW pretending they really want it (whereas they're only do it for money), but it might turn into a really good moment for everyone involved.

And IMO, that's more or less what's happening here with Astarion.

It's a tricky thing to explain because I really don’t want to look like I’m promoting forcing anyone to do anything. Sex should ALWAYS happen in a situation in which all the persons involved are 100% sure they want to do it, and 100% sure their partner(s) want to do it.

But there are exceptional situations (such as sex-work or what Astarion’s going through here, and I can think of other cases), where sex remains enjoyable even if the original motivations weren’t that clear. It’s not fully incompatible. Clearly, that’s NOT a healthy way to deal with your sexuality!!! But it can happen. And the main point here is that it still relies on consent. The person fully consents to do it, but they do it for “questionable” reasons (whether they acknowledge it or not), and they enjoy it in spite of having questionable reasons to do it. It can happen.

I think that’s what happens to Astarion at this point.

(That being said, I repeat it: ALWAYS make sure your partner is fully into it, and NEVER force yourself to have sex if you’re not 100% sure you want it!)

From a transaction to something else

It’s interesting to notice that if the PC refuses to have sex with him in the clearing, he doesn’t really seem to care.

He’s probably disappointed because his plan failed, but his reaction is very different from the reaction you get if the PC rejects him after the first night (my post on this matter here) when he seems really sad to be rejected. It means, I think, that this first night was REALLY meaningful – his heartfelt reaction to your rejection to spend another night together makes it clear. That first night was special since his reaction to your refusal is so very different.

In any case, if the PC refuses during that first night, he says he thought you had an “understanding", and it somehow evokes me something like a transaction (as you rightly mentioned in your message).

And it's not the first time he compares sex with the PC to a transaction. The first time he offers them to sleep with him, he presents it as a reward for letting him bite the PC. It's transactional: You let me feed, I give you sex.

He thinks that’s what sex is about. He has never known anything else, or maybe he did a long time ago but can’t remember.

I wrote that long post about how feeding him can be quite problematic given how he might see it as a transaction (here and here): Offering the the vampire bite kink in order to be fed and survive. It’s the same here.

He knows the PC enjoyed being bitten, he’s convinced they're attracted to him, and by being the one who gives "a reward", he presents himself in a position of control. I “allow” you to have sex with me, since you want it so much: I’m the one making that decision, having more power over you.

After all, in his mind at this point, sex is a question of power. (And if he ascends he undeniably falls back into that pattern; treating sex as a reward, as something to use to better control the PC)

You put it rightly in your message, there's also some sort of familiarity with that transactional system that is deeply comforting.

I won't lie, back in the days, it was sometimes difficult for me to be with someone who wasn't a client, because my partners then didn't expect anything from me. Whereas clients always expect something specific, if only in the SW's behaviour, or/and concerning the acts themselves. And it was comforting. I knew what I had to do to please them. But as I said, it didn't always keep me from having a good time with some clients. It's not incompatible. That's why I think Astarion can still enjoy it even though he's performing, and can get attached to the PC even if it started as something more or less transactional.

And that's precisely why it must have been so destabilizing for him!

After all, when that first night together happens, he appreciates the PC (you need enough approval to sleep with him). As you pointed out, they've already spent several days/weeks together, shared a lot things... That's new to him, sleeping with someone he knows and appreciates.

As a SW, I had defined through the years a clear line between people I met for the job, and people I met outside of it. There was no confusion between the two, even for the long-terms clients – even for the clients I cared about. I liked them, but we weren’t friends, we weren’t partners, we weren’t lovers. And we would never be.

I would say that in the case of Astarion, that separation exists, but it’s not as well defined because, despite his experience, all his partners were destined to end up dead (for all he knew) and he barely knew them anyway. He didn’t have to clearly define that separation because there was no opportunity, no room for him to get attached to them. He saw a target, seduced them, slept with them and they disappeared forever.

It was “easy”, he didn’t have to question the nature of his relationship with them. Whereas after that first night with the PC, they’re still there, alive, and they’re still being this great leader who cares about him and his needs, who values him as a person, someone whose company feels good. His habitus is all messed up and his mental pattern is no long relevant.

{From personal experience, and SW put aside, many years ago, before I really started working on my traumas, I forced myself to believe that I didn’t need affection, tenderness, care. I would never allow myself to cry, I refused to get attached to people (except some very close friends). Because I wanted to be in control of my feelings, I thought it made me look stronger, not showing any kind of vulnerability. I was 27 or 28 when I first experienced genuine tenderness and care while having sex and I realized that there was a softness inside me I had hindered for years and that I actually loved tenderness. Before that, I would run away at the first sign of affection, because it made me feel deeply uncomfortable (and vulnerable).  And when I finally accepted to experience it, it was completely destabilizing. It felt good, but I needed time to adapt.}

Astarion realizing that he wanted something real, soft, and gentle with the PC might have had the same kind of effect, but worse.  Because he was supposed to be manipulating the PC, to pull the strings, and he suddenly found himself being “manipulated” by his own feelings.

It must have been terrifying for him, realising that he could feel something like this. Because it means he doesn’t control himself (his feelings) as much as he wants to, as much as he thought he could. He "falls" for the PC, the expression itself being one of vulnerability.

For him, falling in love = falling into a trap. He was supposed to be the one crafting that trap, and he ends up being trapped by his (uncontrollable) feelings.

That's why he can sound so cynical about your affair. This banter is from Act 2 if you romance him:

He feels uncomfortable, not because you had sex, but because it actually means something, and he doesn't not how to deal with it. It's easier to joke about it than to admit that maybe he's not so much in control.

It's not the PC's fault

He’s hurt, he has PTSD, but he can now think by himself and make his own choices, for better or worse.

It’s normal for us, fans who know the rest of the story, to worry about him and to not want to have him do something he's not fully into. But we should give him some credits and let him experience sex his own way.

When you’re a survivor, sometimes you have great sex experience, sometimes your PTSD will ruin it, and you won’t be able to go through with it. Sometimes you have sex for bad reasons, sometimes you regret it and sometimes you’re proud of it. Sometimes you have healthy sex and sometimes you use it to hurt yourself. It’s normal. That’s what healing is about and how you learn to define your boundaries.

Astarion didn’t have any body agency for two centuries, it’s coherent that his first experience as a free man is driven by questionable reasons. You can’t expect him to immediately find a healthy way to deal with his sexuality.

For instance, if you don't sleep with him at the party, he spends the night with Lae'zel, and imho it's even worse.

She shamelessly uses him like a toy, and he knows about it. But it's still his decision to sleep with her, even if his motivations aren't "good". You can't take that away from him on the pretext of protecting him. He doesn't need that kind of infantilisation. Same thing when he decides to sleep with the PC.

The thing is that the PC can’t know. As benevolent and respectful and selfless as the PC is, it’s part of Astarion's storyline that they don’t notice anything. He does his best to keep the mask up because the last thing he wants is to look vulnerable to you.

And he knows it's not the PC's fault. He slept with them for questionable reasons and he feels bad about it; not because he thinks they hurt him, but because he knows he mostly hurt himself, and he feels bad for manipulating the PC.

He doesn't blame the PC for it, and I'm sure it's not because he's deluded by his sense of guilt. After all, he never blamed his targets for sleeping with him, even the "villains" among them. They're not the enemies.

Those who hurt him didn't hurt him because they accepted to sleep with him, but more probably because of their behaviours during sex.

Besides, if the PC uses the confession dialogue to trick him into sleeping with them again, Astarion accepts before realising how disgusted he feels about it, and there he blames the PC for it, because here they explicitly abused his trust, using his vulnerabilities against him. It's still difficult for him to say no, especially to someone he respects, but he can say no when he's not taken aback in his most vulnerable moments (again: he doesn't sleep with the PC at all if there's not enough approval). Sleeping with him that first night doesn't make the PC an abuser.

In act 1, the PC has no way to know how Astarion is feeling about sex, The PC is one that fool who wanted to love him...

Trust

I already mentioned how pleased he looks when the PC let him bite them, and I think it has to do with trust. They accept to spend the night with him although they know he's a vampire and they trust him not to drink too much. Look at his reaction if the PC warn him not to bite.

He's really disappointed, enough to put an end to this affair. The tone he uses here doesn't seem 100% genuine, though, masking indignation? frustration? sadness? I don't know, but the "it's about pleasure" sounds so fake to me.

He nonetheless decides to not sleep with the PC - he listens to himself and realises he doesn't want to spend the night with someone who can't trust him. The PC has taken back their trust and reduced him to his vampiric nature (as something bad). Whereas if they sleep with him, they show him that they accept him.

That’s what makes that night so special: not thanks to some sort of “collective ecstasy” but thanks to mutual trust. The PC trusts him not to hurt them. Astarion trust them not to abuse him. He’s not ready to be vulnerable, but he allows himself to enjoy that moment with the PC, despite his plan, despite his past. Because they've both come this far and the PC has proved him multiple times that he could rely on them. It’s a fragile trust at this point, but it’s still more than  what he’d ever had before.

An essential step

IMHO this scene is essential in the romance route. I know some players wished there could be an option to romance him without sleeping with him, and I perfectly understand why. Realizing that he might have not be totally into it is painful. It’s uncomfortable. I also understand that if the PC is demi-sexual/ace, it makes the romance road a bit awkward. And it’s a valid feeling.

You can romance him without sleeping with him as Karlach origin, and that's because it's Karlach. The tension arises from the fact she can’t and wants it so much (for good reasons), whereas Astarion can and wants it somehow (for questionable reasons). That road is specific to them both because they are a mirroring one another.

Karlach aside, the thing is that in terms of narrative growth and storyline, this first night is the starting point of his healing journey. For the first time in 200 years, he has sex in a safe environment. For the first time, he finds a partner who trusts him enough to sleep with him even though they know he’s a vampire who could bite them. For the first time in his existence he can have real fun while having sex, he can be silly and roll on the ground. And maybe during this moment, he’s no longer the “sexy vampire” but just a man frolicking in the forest with someone he's attracted to. And again, it's still his decision, no matter how "bad" his motivations are. We should give him some credit.

I think it’s a brave move from Larian to put the players in that situation, to make them face the harsh reality of trauma. The harsh reality of being with someone who has such complicated feelings towards sex because of their trauma. It’s real. Very real. And it feels good to be seen.

You don’t always know the past of your sexual partners. You don’t always know what’s in their mind when you’re sleeping together. And if you happen to learn the harsh truth, it stings.

The Act 2 confession wouldn't be such a powerful scene without the first night. Astarion wouldn't have appeared so brave. Telling the PC about his former motivations must have been incredibly difficult, telling them "I wanted it but wasn't really into it" is freaking brave, and it's a token of trust he gives to the PC. Without that first night, it would have fallen flat. The PC would have just felt some kind of pride for not falling for his flirting and...that's it. Good, have a medal. Instead, the narrative puts the PC in an uncomfortable position, asking them: "Can you accept that? Because that's what trauma looks like and it's ugly."

That first night is inherent to Astarion's storyline, and to its message. That man goes from someone whose only reason to exist is being a sensual, sexual being in a cruel environment - someone who cannot connect with others without sex - to a man who finds out that he’s more than that, that sex doesn’t have to be dangerous, that’s it’s so much more than a game of power. And when you compare his grandiloquent attitude during that first night to his behaviour in the graveyard scene, it’s even more telling.

Those two scenes need to exist side by side to make sense, to reveal the evolution.

Everything about him in the graveyard scene - his body language, the look in his eyes, his voice - is a reversed image of that first night. He’s at peace, he doesn’t have to use those stupid lines about “mutual ecstasy” and how he will “taste you”, he doesn’t look down on the PC or look away. He looks into their eyes and tells them with his own words that he’d love to have sex with them.

But you have to experience both situations for the graveyard one to be so powerful. To witness that beautiful evolution. And Astarion too; he has to experience a “not so real” night with the PC to know that he wants something real with them.

It makes it all the more meaningful and sweeter. And imo, the graveyard scene is so freaking hot! Much more than that first night! Because it's genuine. It’s simple. He knows what he wants, his motivations are clear. It’s a man telling his lover “I want you”. A man who's learning to decipher what he really wants and to express it. And it’s more than enough.

[Let’s be honest, it’s been quite challenging to write all this. I rarely talk about my past online (for obvious reasons) and this scene means so much to me. Analysing it feels a little bit like analysing myself. And if you ever went through therapy, you know how hard it is xD In any case, that’s still my pov, based on my personal experience. I don’t pretend I hold the keys to a universal truth about it. We all have our own experience and sensibilities, and all of them are valid, even if we don’t agree in our interpretations.]

Thank you again @rivereverie for giving me the opportunity to dig into all this. I hope my humble opinion will help.

Last thing, some time ago I wrote a short fic about Astarion’s preparing himself for that first night, and it’s here.

[michanvalentine]

I thought of another question. Do you think Astarion is claustrophobic because of the year he spent trapped in a tomb?

Hey! Well, there’s definitely nothing in the game itself—since we’re never given the chance to directly experience that kind of situation. There is a scene, though, in the Baldur’s Gate cemetery, where you can rescue a poor soul who’s been buried alive and save them from certain death. In that moment, Astarion has nothing specific to say—no particular reaction or follow-up dialogue. Still, what he went through is such an intense and horrifying experience that it’s hard to believe it didn’t leave a mark.

This terrible event can be discovered in two ways in the game. The first is when Astarion voluntarily confesses it to the player, right after the confrontation with Leon and Aurelia at camp, during the night attack. Here’s what he says: “After Cazador caught me, the bastard sealed me, starving, inside a dusty tomb all on my own, for an entire year. A year of silence. Months of scratching my hands raw, trying to carve my way out. More months of not moving at all. Months wishing only for death.”

Let’s start by acknowledging that this confession is like a punch to the gut for the player. What Astarion says, and how he says it, are like claws digging into your chest—and it hurts. It’s a beautiful scene in its heartbreak. There’s honestly nothing you can say when he, rightfully, warns you never to judge him again for the things Cazador forced him to do. With what heart, from what moral pedestal, could anyone deny his suffering in that moment, call it irrelevant, and still throw his sins in his face? You can’t. We, too, are pushed to the far edges of the emotional spectrum, powerless, able only to swallow hard in front of the screen—speechless, with no words to comfort or contradict him. After all, there’s nothing, as the vampire spawn himself says, that can ever make up for something like that. No comfort will suffice. No further accusation will hold weight.

It’s also worth noting how Astarion’s facial expression during that line conveys the most chilling parts of his story. The most harrowing and devastating moments of the entire experience. Just listen to him—and the silence he describes, that lasted an entire year, no longer feels like an abstract concept. It takes on form, dimension, even weight. And it’s crushing. An absolute silence. Nothingness. His non-existence in its purest form. And then comes the inevitable desire for death that followed and consumed him. Defeated—one might say. He, the master of survival. He, more than anyone, driven by self-preservation, who wants to be free and live life to its fullest...

It’s the epitome of drama.

The second way to obtain this information is much crueler, because it involves sneaking into his mind, digging around, and bringing his most terrible experience to the surface for the sole purpose of blackmailing him. Which, in my view, is disgusting. I’m talking, of course, about the conversation regarding the Astral Tadpole offered by the Emperor—the one that would allow Astarion to become part Illithid, and which he absolutely refuses to use. In that moment, Tav/Durge enters the vampire spawn’s mind, and the narrator describes the scene as follows:

“As you pick apart his mind, you discover his worst memory. That which brings him the purest terror. Complete solitude, after being disobedient. Sealed. Buried alive. Voiceless. Will this be forever? A year of horror. Then the release. He will never disobey again.”

Here too, we see the key elements of the punishment that completely broke Astarion’s resistance. Solitude, for instance. The loss of voice—no one could hear him scream or cry for help, no one could save him. But it also implies resignation and a loss of identity. He has no worth, no voice—he is nothing and no one. He’s annihilated in the most devastating sense of the word. And here again, we find the silence he spoke of earlier—understood as absolute nothingness, stretching across time without any idea if or when it will end. A situation that is unsustainable both physically and mentally—so much so that the only conceivable relief is death.

And yet, since Astarion is a vampire spawn, and therefore undead, even death is denied him. He is forced to endure not only the psychological torment, but also hunger, darkness, and immobility.

Humans, in general, are social animals. They always have been, because human beings survived and evolved thanks to cooperation: group hunting, collective defense, shared child-rearing. The brain itself is structured for sociality: neurotransmitters related to empathy, bonding, and trust (like oxytocin and dopamine) are activated during social interactions. Social isolation triggers effects similar to physical pain, both in the brain and emotionally. Healthy relationships, on the other hand, promote mental health, self-esteem, and overall well-being, while loneliness can lead to depression, anxiety, and cognitive disorders.

Our very identity is formed in relation to others: through recognition, imitation, conflict, and dialogue. These are basic needs—just like eating, sleeping, or going to the bathroom.

So we can easily imagine the extent of the stress Astarion was subjected to during all that time. An entire year in solitude, and on top of that, in sensory deprivation.

There are numerous studies that have been conducted on the conditions of inmates held in solitary confinement and the effects this has had on them. Let’s take a look at what this means in relation to Astarion’s specific situation.

In darkness, silence, immobility, and constant hunger, Astarion lost all sense of reference: who he was, where he was, how much time had passed. Without stimuli and without another living being to reflect himself in, the self begins to fracture. He likely started to doubt his own existence, to feel like a dream or a mistake. In psychology, this is known as depersonalization: "I am no longer me. There is no more ‘me.’"

After weeks or months of sensory isolation, hallucinations and delusions likely set in. His brain probably created alternative realities in order to survive. Maybe he heard voices, saw the faces of people from his past, believed someone was about to save him—or worse, believed he was damned for eternity. These may have been lucid dreams, waking nightmares, or false hopes that shattered each time the void came back to swallow him.

The tomb-prison is the perfect symbol of Cazador’s absolute power, a metaphor for Astarion’s enslavement: he doesn’t just have the power to hurt him—he can erase him. Forced into stillness and silence, Astarion lost the ability to choose, to move, to resist, even to die. This is a state of total coercion, where free will is entirely annihilated. It can lead to a form of trauma known as learned helplessness: even when you could fight back, you no longer know how.

And we must not forget the hunger. The very absence of the lifeblood that keeps a vampire “alive.” Vampiric hunger is not like human hunger: it is an obsession, a need that overwhelms everything, an ancient and primal pull. For Astarion, being buried without blood for an entire year was also a kind of inverted sensory torture: not only nothing to see or touch, but nothing to crave, except for the one thing he could never have. And yet the craving remained alive—it screamed, it clawed from within. A kind of frustration that tears you apart.

But after he had shredded his hands trying to dig his way out, Astarion gave in. He stopped moving. He began to wish for the end… but even that wouldn’t come.

That’s the real horror: not living, not dying, not being. A static and excruciating eternity. No agony could ever match this kind of punishment.

And there’s more: when a being is isolated for so long, the inner language can weaken or become fragmented. Cognitive science and testimonies from solitary confinement survivors suggest that thought itself—especially verbal thought—relies on interaction to remain coherent. According to psychologist Craig Haney, prolonged solitary confinement leads to “cognitive dysfunction, disturbances of thought and perception, and a disintegration of the sense of self” (Haney, 2003). Without social feedback, the mind begins to unravel.

Astarion, whose voice is his sharpest weapon, likely spent months without uttering a single word—until even his inner voice began to dissolve.

Language, too, needs dialogue to survive: it is shaped, maintained, and refined through exchange. In the total silence of the tomb, with no one to speak to and no stimuli to respond to, his verbal identity may have begun to erode. When he finally emerged, he may have had to relearn how to speak—how to think in words again, piecing back together the sharp, eloquent voice that would become his armor and blade.

On a physical level, Astarion must have endured an equally devastating torment. The muscle and joint pain caused by prolonged immobility in a cramped space must have been unbearable: the body stiffens, goes numb, and fills with aches that no movement can soothe. In some cases, even contact with the walls can become intolerable—as if the skin itself were "alive," as if the space were rejecting it, or it were rejecting the space.

Let’s try to imagine it: in the total silence of the tomb, the only sound is that of one’s own body. The breath, the heartbeat, the blood pulsing in the ears become deafening (okay, maybe those aren’t exactly the sounds Astarion would hear, given that he’s undead, but the concept still stands). It’s a subtle and relentless kind of torture, where the body itself seems to be screaming into the void. This kind of heightened sensory awareness can lead to delirium, hallucinations, and the desperate desire to escape not just the space—but oneself.

Plus: according to official Dungeons & Dragons material, when a vampire is well-fed, the decomposition of their body halts and can even reverse. Fresh blood restores the illusion of life—the skin becomes rosier, circulation resumes, the body appears almost alive. But in the opposite case—prolonged and extreme hunger—the effect is reversed. A starving vampire slowly begins to rot like a corpse. The flesh withers, the features hollow out, the body decomposes while remaining fully conscious. For Astarion, that long year of burial was also a return to death in the most raw and literal sense: a physical decay endured with full awareness. And the horror of knowing that he couldn’t even die.

Thinking about all these internal processes—about what it truly means for a person and a vampire spawn to be buried alive in complete solitude and sensory deprivation—is simply insane. I believe many people, when judging Astarion, pay far too little attention to the severity of the abuse he endured and to how deeply it scarred him. Or to just how long 200 years under the heel of a cruel and merciless master really are.

All of this is to say: yes, I do believe the very least is that Astarion suffers from claustrophobia after such a traumatic experience. And yes, I know, I could have just answered the question with a quick 'yes', but as usual, if I don’t unload the chatterbox brain I’ve got, I’m not satisfied. I hope I didn’t bore you to death!

[yeragei]

Clearing up the vampire bride theory

There's a lot of misinformation surrounding this vampire bride fan theory. As someone who has the book the theory allegedly comes from, I want to provide important context that's always left out in posts about it.

Note: It's fine if you like this headcanon and want to use it for your own RP. But posts about this headcanon tend to present it as a factual and canon concept. I want people to have all the information so that they're fully informed when they decide to believe in it or not. There's a lot of evidence that it isn't canon. Everyone is welcome to see their character how they like. No one is saying you can't have fun. The problem is misinformation.

First, the 2e book this theory stems from (Van Richten's Guide to Vampires) is from 1991. That's over 30 years and three editions of DnD ago. None of this lore has been mentioned in the current edition of DnD, 5e, as far as I've seen. It didn't even appear in Curse of Strahd, where it would have fit in perfectly. DnD staff have officially said that each edition of DnD is its own canon. They don't want fans to need archaic sourcebooks to understand the current lore.

"The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D… Every edition of the roleplaying game has its own canon as well. In other words, something that might have been treated as canonical in one edition is not necessarily canonical in another…we don’t want DMs or players to feel like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products."

Now, I'm not saying that every edition of DnD is completely different and doesn't draw from older versions. But it's clear that DnD staff don't want old sourcebooks to be needed to understand current products. That's why it's significant that vampire bride lore has not shown up again in a decade of 5e. There is an updated 2021 version of the Van Richten book: Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. This 5e version still has no mention of vampire bride lore.

Ravenloft is also an entirely different campaign setting from the Forgotten Realms, which is where BG3 takes place. Their lore is not necessarily interchangeable.

While BG3 doesn't follow DnD 5e lore 100%: One can't use a 2e sourcebook to argue the vampire bride theory is true, and also say sourcebooks aren't important because BG3 is its own property.

Even if we accept what is in the 1991 Van Richten's Guide to Vampires: The Dark Kiss ritual states that the sire vampire's age must be AT LEAST twice Astarion's vampire age.

"Creating a bride or groom, although seemingly a simple process, requires an exhausting exercise of much power by the creating vampire. For this reason, only vampires of advanced age and capability can even assay this procedure. A bride or groom can be created only by a vampire of age category Ancient or greater, and not even all of those are capable of doing so." (pg 71)

The Ancient vampire age category starts at 400 years (pg 13). Astarion has been a vampire spawn for 200 years and an ascended vampire for barely any time at all.

If one argues Astarion can do this ritual anyway because he's a special ascended vampire… Well, the book's ritual is about normal vampires. If AA is this unique, it can be easily argued that he can't do the ritual and make a vampire bride, because he's not a normal vampire. This logic can be applied both ways. The idea behind becoming an ascended vampire is that things which affect a normal vampire won't affect him anymore. Not to mention, Astarion himself says it will take more time for him to come into his full power. So how can he be as powerful as an ancient vampire already? Alternatively, if he is this powerful and special, who says he can't compel and control a Vampire Bride anyway?

The book also describes the sire losing lots of blood to the bride, to the point that the sire is weakened. Astarion gives us "just one drop" and shows no sign of being weakened after turning us. Nor do we see evidence of a feeding frenzy.

"The vampire opens a gash in its own flesh—often in its throat—and holds the subject’s mouth to the wound. As the burning draught that is the vampire’s blood gushes into the subject’s mouth, the primitive feeding instinct is triggered, and she sucks hungrily at the wound, enraptured. With the first taste of the blood, the subject is possessed of great and frenzied strength, and will use it to prevent the vampire from separating her from the fountain of wonder that is its bleeding wound. It is at this point that the creator-vampire’s strength is most sorely tested. He is weakened by his own blood loss." (pg 72)

The vampire bride ritual requires the sire to make 3 bites. People disagree over how many times Astarion bites Tav or Durge in the turning scene. And he bites once before the turning if you agree to the romance scene. This is a separate optional bite which tends to get treated as a guaranteed ritual bite.

There's also no evidence of any telepathic bond post-tadpole in the game during the epilogue.

"One of the reasons “married vampires” are so difficult to defeat is that a vampire and its bride share a telepathic communication that has a range measured in miles. Regardless of intervening terrain or obstacles, the two vampires can communicate instantly and silently as if they were speaking together." (pg 74)

Even if we accept the outdated 2e lore of vampire brides, there's numerous ways that the Dark Kiss ritual in the sourcebook doesn't match what happens when AA turns Tav or Durge. Depending on how you count the bites, one can argue that nothing from the ritual matches what's in the game!

Great addition by @/nicsnort: "Let us also not forget that the very nature of necromancy and undeath changed between 2e and 5e due to the Spellplague and the destruction of the Negative Energy Plane. So, not only is the canon of the Bride ritual outdated, but this ritual very well may not work anymore for even 400+-year-old vampires because magic itself is different!"

This is without even talking about how something so major which goes against everything we're told about master-spawn relationships in the game... would have been clearly discussed in the actual game.

On the topic of what's in the actual game: AA himself and Karlach explicitly say the turned player is a spawn. Other companions express concern about the romance post-ascension. Just because the player character can walk in the sun doesn't mean they aren't a vampire spawn. Cazador gives some of his spawn the ability to teleport, and the companions express surprise. Yet no one denies they are still vampire spawn.

I hope this post gives you extra context on the vampire bride theory. Overall, it's clear that this is old lore which is not canon to the current edition of DnD. Whether you think Larian decided to apply it to BG3 or not, at least now that belief will be fully informed.

If this post was useful or interesting to you, please reblog so more people can see it! I've made updates to it a few times to address replies I've had, so check my original post for the latest version.

[michanvalentine]

Updated version! xD

[michanvalentine]

I have a question about your opinion on Astarion's romance scene in Act 1 and his answer to the question of what he wants. He says pleasure. However, in his confession later, he says that for him, sex is still tainted. Do you think he had hope in Act 1 that the sex would be better now? Why else would he want to do it?

Hey, hi! Thanks for writing to me, and sorry it took me so long to reply.

Unfortunately, I have far too many things to do and far too little time to do them. Sob. I wish I could split myself in two, at least—so one version of me could handle Tumblr while the other dealt with real life. (Though honestly, I’d probably need a third version of me just to rest on the couch and watch my favorite TV shows, lol. And now that I think about it, my daughter would say there should be yet another version of me, so one could always stay with her.)

Anyway. It’s a complicated subject. Obviously—as always when it comes to Astarion.

The short answer: Astarion chooses to use sex to secure his own survival despite what he truly thinks of it. And no, Astarion did not think sex would be different the first time with Tav/Durge. Quite the opposite. And that is precisely why he was pleasantly surprised and affected when in my humble opinion it turned out to be really different despite his pessimistic expectations.

The long, elaborate answer full of digressions (lol):

“The pleasure” he says he wants during the first sex scene is part of his script. He is not being entirely sincere when he answers Tav/Durge’s question. In essence, he is telling them what he thinks they want to hear. As he later reveals in his true confession in Act 2 of the game, he was following his “nice simple plan” to secure his own survival. And he was doing so in the only safe way he knew: through his charm and his body, by seducing the person he considered the strongest and most reliable—someone capable of protecting him.

If he had managed to awaken feelings in the other person, he could have used them to avoid being abandoned. But, as we know, his plan fails the moment he is the one who unexpectedly begins to feel something. Something he had never planned for, and something entirely outside his “nice simple plan.”

Why does Astarion decide to deceive the player even after they have shown themselves to be open and compassionate toward him:

I’m not justifying his behavior, of course, but I am dissecting it in order to understand it better, even though I personally believe he could not have done much better given the condition he was in during Act 1 of the game.

So, Astarion can certainly be described as an asshole, a manipulator, and an opportunist—but for him, these are not merely personality traits, which in many cases is an attribution error among the so-called cognitive biases. That does not mean it is entirely false, of course, because Astarion does manipulate and take advantage when he can.

But for Astarion, breaking out of old patterns is extremely difficult, because those behaviors are not mere habits or character flaws: they are survival strategies forged through two centuries of abuse and coercion. It is not simply a matter of “changing his attitude” or “stopping being an asshole,” but of giving up the very tools that kept him alive for two hundred years.

Patterns such as seducing others to gain protection, manipulating before being manipulated, hiding vulnerability behind sarcasm, reading other people’s desires in order to adapt, distrusting kindness, or associating intimacy with a transactional exchange do not come out of nowhere. They are trauma adaptations.

There is also another important aspect: trauma does not live only in thoughts, but in the body as well. Even when Astarion rationally understands that Tav or Durge are not Cazador, his nervous system may still react as though the danger were still present. And he acts accordingly.

Moreover, his identity has been warped for centuries by devastating messages: that his only value was his body, that charm was his only talent, that without a master he was nothing, and so on.

What Astarion truly thinks and feels in relation to sex:

Now, as you said, sex is a troubled, layered, and sadly contaminated concept for him. And not only that, but the very concept of intimacy is as well.

It is all condensed into this line:

“Even though I know things between us are different, being with someone still feels… tainted. Still brings up those feelings of disgust and loathing.”

Astarion says, “Even though I know things between us are different…” and already here a fundamental distinction emerges. On one side, there is the rational mind, which recognizes that with Tav/Durge the situation is not the same as before—that there is no coercion, that there is affection and respect. On the other side, however, there is the emotional and bodily level, which still cannot keep pace with that awareness.

When he adds, “being with someone still feels… tainted,” he chooses a very significant word. He does not simply say that being with someone is difficult, frightening, or unpleasant. He says tainted: contaminated, stained, corrupted. It is as though intimacy itself, in his experience, has been poisoned by everything he endured. It is not the present that is wrong, but the past that has left such a mark that it stains even what could now be good.

Even that small hesitation before the word tainted—the ellipsis—is eloquent. It feels like the sign of someone struggling to name what he feels, searching for the right word for something painful and shameful. There is vulnerability in that silence.

Then comes the second part: “still brings up those feelings of disgust and loathing.” The word still is extremely important, because it conveys that all of this is still happening, even though he knows the situation is different, even though he wants to open himself up, even though he is trying. There is a sense of frustration and helplessness in it: he would like to experience the present in a new way, but the past keeps resurfacing.

Finally, the words disgust and loathing are not accidental. Disgust evokes an almost physical repulsion, an emotional nausea tied to sex and to the way he was forced to experience it. Loathing, on the other hand, is something even deeper: self-contempt, internalized hatred, the feeling of being dirty or degraded. He is not speaking only about sex itself, but also about how those experiences have distorted the way he sees himself.

Why sex and intimacy feel so deeply tied to self-loathing for him:

Astarion’s body is capable of having sex, of feeling arousal, and of leading and completing the dance of the senses with precision and great skill. And yet he is completely dissociated—from himself and from the other person—without them necessarily noticing the enormous and heavy baggage he carries with him. And when it is all over, nothing remains but disgust and contempt for himself.

But it is not a contradiction.

A much broader discussion could be opened here, psychologically speaking, but in short: during sexual violence, body and mind can move in two different directions. The body may respond physiologically—arousal, lubrication, erection, even orgasm—while the mind is in a state of fear, paralysis, or dissociation. This does not imply desire or consent: these are automatic responses of the nervous system, not a choice. Research clearly distinguishes between bodily response, subjective experience, and consent. They are different things.

This helps explain how a person can “function sexually” while not truly being there at all (to be clear, this refers to lack of agency, not to consensual sex work).

For Astarion, as someone subjected to prolonged sexual exploitation and coercion, this is very coherent, and it can be applied in a broader sense as well.

His body “knows what to do” while the mind withdraws, so what remains is disgust. What remains is the devastating, self-loathing thought: my body participated even if I feel disgust, so perhaps I am into it, perhaps I’m broken or twisted. Perhaps I really am nothing more than something to be used for pleasure. So all the terrible things they said about me for centuries are true—for example, that it is his only talent.

And this is where a huge part of the shame may be born. The guilt, the disgust, and the cognitive dissonance between what is actually a fact and what one believes to be a fact—or between who one truly is and who one believes oneself to be. Let us remember, in fact, that Astarion’s bodily response is pure survival, a pure adaptation to an impossible situation.

So his disgust is not directed solely at what was done to him—not only at the physical repulsion of being forced into intimacy with someone he does not know, does not desire, and may even find unpleasant—but also at what he believes that experience has made him or revealed about him.

Other factors that may contribute:

Everything that is connected to the sexual act, to what it represents within Cazador’s system, and that goes beyond Astarion’s personal experience as a victim of sexual trafficking. Namely, the deception he carried out for centuries against unsuspecting victims led to their deaths, which casts him as a kind of trap—a morally devastating role, where he becomes both victim and unwilling instrument of harm. And the fact that even the most important relationship of his life began under those same dynamics.

Here, pre-existing and repressed guilt, along with a more general sense of shame, certainly find fertile ground to further contaminate his perception of intimacy.

And it doesn’t end there—there are other aspects to consider. For example, the unexpressed anger over the loss of his agency, having been completely under Cazador’s control and unable to make him pay for it or even show him the slightest disrespect without being torn apart in body and spirit. From there, that sense of powerlessness turns into a kind of shameful weakness.

Then there are the flashbacks, because for him contact is no longer just contact; it can trigger bodily memories of invasion, control, or obligation.

Finally, there is identity confusion: after centuries of playing a role, it becomes difficult for him to tell what is real—what he wants, what he feels, what he enjoys—versus what he learned to do because he had to. That uncertainty alone can be deeply unsettling.

The relationship with Tav/Durge: the difference that fractures the cycle and Astarion defenses:

All of this remains my personal interpretation, but I believe that despite Astarion’s trauma surrounding sex and intimacy, and despite the dysfunctional—even self-destructive—dynamics he carries into his relationship with the player as a means of survival, small glimpses of genuineness begin to emerge between him and Tav/Durge, even without him fully realizing it. And this starts as early as the bite scene.

Here’s why: in the first sex scene, even while following the prepackaged script he had refined over centuries, something begins to change. I talked about that HERE as well.

Tav/Durge truly takes Astarion’s real pleasure into account by offering him their neck—through their blood. And, in my view, it is precisely through the blood that a first genuine bond is formed between the two of them.

Something that, if we think about it, is entirely new for Astarion. Tav/Durge is his first, as he says himself after the bite night. And he says it almost like a blushing virgin. In this sense, he truly is one, given that Cazador always fed him nothing but putrid rats and insects. He’s not lying; it’s simply the plain truth.

This small detail places Tav/Durge outside of anyone else Astarion had ever encountered in his entire existence as a vampire spawn.

In this sense, Tav/Durge is special. Unique. But the moment is even deeper than that. By offering their blood, Tav/Durge also unconditionally accepts Astarion’s vampiric nature—the very thing for which he feared being cast out and killed. And that, too, is something entirely new. Someone knows his nature and trusts him.

It is the first time he can begin to feel safe, accepted, truly seen—not through the lens of a monster, but simply as Astarion.

So, in my humble opinion, Astarion truly begins to open up and experience new sensations (not feelings yet, mind you) from their very first encounter in the woods. This is regardless of whether he finds the player objectively attractive.

Sex has little to do with it—that’s part of the script. Everything else isn’t. After all, there’s a reason that in Act 2, despite his unhealthy behaviors, Astarion makes his confession, saying he wants something real, while also opening up about his vulnerabilities and what a relationship with him would actually entail. And he does so because, from the moment of the bite scene, Tav/Durge treats him like a person—offering him what he needs (blood included—for me, that’s where it starts; when it comes to a vampire, it’s not just a detail) without conditions and without judgment—completely outside of every pattern he knew.

In fact, if you reject him the second time he offers to spend intimate time together, he says that he has had countless lovers he can barely remember. But he will remember Tav/Durge.

And in that moment, he no longer has any need to lie or play the part of the seducer, since he has just been turned down.

Anyway, Astarion develops genuine feelings for Tav/Durge even as he moves through these internal conflicts, which make any form of true intimacy complicated and hard-won. What follows is a gradual process of reconciliation—between body and mind, and eventually between himself and another person.

And again, this is not about sex. That comes later, only once intimacy with Tav/Durge begins to exist beyond the purely physical.

Ok, I’d say I’ve rambled quite a bit, as usual. I hope this helps clarify things a little, even if it doesn’t fully resolve the contradiction. With Astarion, there’s rarely a simple answer—and I think that’s part of what makes him so interesting to explore.

Thanks again for reaching out to me.

[litsenn]

"I... don't know. It's been so long since I've had to decide what I wanted."

[michanvalentine]

Vampiric Hunger and Narrative Framing in BG3

Irony mode on.

So, unless I’m mistaken, in BG3 there’s a buff with the wonderfully mysterious and incredible name “Happy.” I’m pretty sure very few people know about it—I only noticed it myself recently. It’s a buff Astarion gets when he drinks the blood of a sentient being, and it lasts until the next day. A buff with such a peculiar name that it would seem to imply satisfaction, well-being… happiness, perhaps?

He says something rather suggestive that might actually help clarify the matter, something along the lines of: “I feel good. Strong. Happy.”

What’s really incredible is that this buff grants Astarion a +1 bonus to rolls for the rest of the day, which could perhaps symbolize that the effect of sentient blood genuinely supports his psychological and physical well-being for quite a long time!

Which might clash a little with the image many people have of this miserable vampire spawn endlessly languishing in the dark under the eternal pangs of hunger.

But funnily enough, it actually fits rather well with the scenario of a radiant hopeful Astarion happily feeding (and even doing a little dance in the Origin version) on criminals while playing vigilante around Baldur’s Gate. Or the version where he travels across Faerûn with his partner, playing the hero.

And if we consider that, to obtain this buff, he doesn’t necessarily need to kill anyone but could simply take a small nibble from his partner every night, then feeling happy and satisfied probably isn’t all that difficult for this particular spawn. In this scenario, the occasional local criminal or bandit along the way is practically just the cherry on top. The sugar in the coffee.

Sure, he’ll probably experience the pangs of hunger from time to time—well, nobody’s life is perfect—but overall he seems to be doing rather well in his ending as a simple adventurer. There’s still the issue of sunlight, of course… but as he himself says: “Maybe never seeing the sun again is just the price of freedom.” Not hunger. Sunlight. Funny how that’s the only thing he specifically mentions.

And even then, during winter the sun sets at four in the afternoon. Plus, in the world of D&D there are places without sunlight altogether. Or simply magical items that allow someone to move around in daylight—and, I don’t want to say nonsense since I haven’t read it personally, but I seem to remember that an object like that is mentioned somewhere in material tied to Astarion’s Book of Hungers.

Then again, we could even look at the regrets and torment of a true vampire, dear Cazador nonthless:

“These deathless dreams hold memories of a mortal life once-forgotten. Of the boy I was, the man I became, the monster that will not end. I sleep, but cannot rest. I live, but cannot die. I’m eternal, and I grieve.”

So, in short, being a vampire sucks. But apparently not because one is perpetually starving. Yes, alright, vampiric hunger is terrible. But the game itself seems to frame feeding as manageable rather than as an endless unbearable torment. More than anything, the misery seems to come from mourning life itself—and probably everything that was lost and once gave meaning to it while one was still mortal.

So, someone might deduce—might, with veeeeeery great imagination and force of will, of course—that a well-fed vampire or vampire spawn is actually rather “happy,” just like the buff says. So I don’t know, maybe it’s just me and maybe I’m completely missing the point, but Spawn Astarion’s ending seems hardly the picture of eternal misery and suffering some people describe.