TMNT Stuff Goes Here

Sideblog for TMNT and potentially other stuff. particularly 2k3 and 2k12.

[darkcrowprincess]

controversial opinion:

@christmasturtles @slady-ao3 @brightlotusmoon @mikubobba

Dont know where the headcanon of where Leo can't cook comes from. At least what I remember from watching tmnt and I'm still doing my rewatches. For me if anyone was bad at cooking it be Raph and Donnie, with Donnie being the worst at it because he gets easily distracted by tech and his experiments, and Raph because he is impatient. Mikey obviously being the best at it. Leo being ok, but he's more good at doing simple cooking. And plus ninja and survival training he'd need to know how to hunt and fish and start a fire. So yeah it would be in character for Leo to know the basics of cooking for basic survival. Because he's ahead of his brothers in ninja training. Just one scene where a toaster messed up does not scream he's bad at cooking too. Seems like they where all chaotic in that scene. So for me the order of being good at cooking in the turtles 🐢 family for me with Mikey being the best, Leo being ok and better when its in the wild, Raph constantly burning shit but it's at least edible and Donnie being the worst because he gets distracted and is more of a tech person.

[slady-ao3]

To be fair, it's hard to mess up toast. Granted I had a roommate (he was ADHD poster child like 2012 Mikey) who burned water. 😹

One of my favorite lines from a fic where Leonardo is upset he struggles with cooking is the reply Raphael gives him: you're already good at everything else, save something for the rest of us!

@amoreanonyname had a good line in a similar conversation where Raphael points out to Leonardo that Donatello also isn't good at cooking despite being good at chemistry. It's more than just recipes, cooking is an art! (Hence Michelangelo is the best and Raph is sufficient. But their older brothers don't prioritize it.)

It makes sense to me as a very Leo personality... I can manage basic food for survival but it's not my best skill by far. Just a couple of days one of my fandom friends checked up on me with, "did you eat today?"

[tmntobsessionsrus]

Lol yup. My headcanon is Donnie either overthinks or gets distracted when he tries to cook, so it never goes well XD. On the other hand, he's a coffee genius and amateur barista.

The "Leo can't cook" thing is definitely fanon that's been exaggerated - 12 Leo in particular does make soup at least once, but Mikey is the only one we really see cooking at all in that version. I think it's a satisfying headcanon for a lot of people for the reason you say - Leo is already such a skilled ninja in the show, people enjoy thinking of him being bad at something. The extremely specialized warrior who's trained from childhood but never learned some basic life skills is a bit of a trope that people like to have fun with. And I enjoy writing skilled, present, disciplined Leo as a complete disaster in the kitchen, to the point that he seems actually cursed 😆. Like appliances breaking or malfunctioning as soon as he touches them.

[imagionationstation]

Idk if this would be considered an ask or not, but can we address how Leo, Raph and Donnie pretty much ignored Mikey’s concerns about Aprils mom? Like-I’m sorry, but how could you ignore your baby brother, who’s never really been wrong about a bad feeling before like that?

That episode genuinely hurt me, because could you imagine Mikey making these little chirps whenever he tried to talk to his brothers about Aprils mom- and they straight up ignored him. I know their instincts were going crazy hearing those sounds or something.

i seriously need a fic or a quick story of the guys actually listening to Mikey, or how they would’ve had a turtle pile while watching Tv after the whole thing. Idk, I just need Mikey to be cuddled and held so close by his brothers, chirps, churrs, purrs and everything else. His brothers instincts going absolutely crazy-cause they ignored their baby brother like that and he got hurt because of their neglect-

I was very ready to agree with you on this, but I don't?

Don't get me wrong! Just because I disagree with you does NOT make this an invalid opinion, take, or fanfic idea. I welcome anyone to come up in the comment section/reblogs and explain why I'm wrong.

"how can you ignore your baby brother who's never been wrong about a bad feeling like this?" I disagree. He has. He's been wrong multiple times. They list several of the times that he had a wacky-sounding notion in that episode. In other episodes, he very firmly insists on stories about "cottage cheese demons" and "talking cupcakes." (Actually, that might be the same episode.)

We are led to believe from the very first episode that his brothers don't trust his tales in the scene where he tells them about the Kraang. He's been making things up all his life. Only now, their lives have become crazy enough that some of these things are becoming possible.

But they're a bunch of teenage boys. That's something they aren't just going to instinctively know. It's something that they're going to have to learn. And that's exactly what ends up happening.

I think that there are too many fanfics depicting Mikey's statements as "but what if it did happen!" that it's confusing people. If these things are not proven to have happened, then the audience should not assume that they did. And they should not expect the brothers to either.

I haven't seen a lot of fanfics acknowledge the change that his brothers go through from 'entertaining it' or 'not believing him at all' in the early seasons, to giving him the benefit of the doubt in season five, even though they vocalize a list of reasons to be skeptical.

In Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady, we see a scenario that was common in early seasons. Mikey is freaking out and his brothers are listening to him, not at all convinced due to the reasons behind their doubt. (They always seem to have many reasons, different each time)

BUT, this time, after listing them, they still seem to have their reservations, but they give it consideration. And they check it out.

They don't immediately trust him because (as I have said before) Mikey is an insanely unreliable source. I'd say that he's incorrect 8 out of 10 times when it comes to his fanciful tales. In their early days, it was reasonable to assume he might be wrong. In season five, after all the crazy that they've gone through, they now know it's better to assume there's a chance that he might be right rather than assuming he's dead wrong. It's worth checking out at the very least.

I just can't sit here and blame them for their reactions in the early seasons. There's a popular kids book about a 'kid crying wolf' out there because one human can train other humans to look at them in a certain way. If you have a reputation for 'crying wolf,' then people are going to be less likely to believe you when the wolf arrives.

I really do wish that they had listened to him for their own sakes, but when your brother is insisting that his 'bad vibes' are EXACTLY as real as the time that 'tiny elves stole his nunchucks and replaced them with mozzarella sticks'... Well? I wouldn't believe him either.

I can see Mikey hissing or angrily chittering under his breath in that scene, but I don't see the possibility of him chirping until he ends up with Icecream Kitty later on. (Also, I have a hard time believing that they'd simply ignore him if he was. They probably still wouldn't believe him, but if he was miserable enough to revert to animal instincts, they'd at least be softer towards him about the subject.)

I wouldn't read a fic where they listen to him (because it would feel OOC or like someone is ignoring the source material to make the brothers act in ways that benefit Mikey but aren't realistic to sibling dynamics) since the canon proves that they wouldn't so early on-

BUT I could see an ending where Mikey (being the first one to be ingested) is sicker than the rest of them and is mad at them ("I wouldn't be like this if you'd listened to me!"), which makes them feel guilty, because he's right. Things would have gone differently if they'd listened.

So they make it up to him with a turtle pile/shows/comfort fest where they take care of him to make up for it. And you get your fluff!!

And, of course, if Mikey feels yucky enough to make some sad tiny turtle noises, then his brothers wouldn't be able to resist responding in comforting kind. The instincts gonna instinct ;)

[tmntobsessionsrus]

I also cut the brothers a break in that episode because I realized they were all sort of emotionally compromised about what was happening.

Leo and Raph had been taking charge and taking care of everyone (mostly Raph in recent months, but Leo was just stating to get back to that), and they both REALLY wanted to believe a missing parent could miraculously reappear.

Donnie was focused on April, who was obviously all-in on believing this was really her mother.

It was actually rather clever having Mikey be the skeptical one in the episode. Apart from seeing things he couldn't explain, he was probably the best-positioned to be objective and not project his own emotions onto the situation.

(And Casey. But there again, see "focused on April".)

[powerof041984]

TMNT Rambles 11

I feel like 2012 Donnie really appreciates and needs Mikey's optimism and bright energy. While this idea came from a few moments in the 2012 series I feel like it can be applied to any iteration of turtles. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on other versions 👀

The moments that started this theory for me are in s2ep11 when Mikey tells Donnie he's sorry about him loosing Metalhead and didn't mind when he grabbed his face.

And in s5ep16 when Donnie's hope for curing vampire Raph starts disappearing and Mikey gives him a bright side to encourage him.

The smile that Donnie gives Mikey in both of these moments looks so soft, genuine, and so so grateful. He could have dismissed him, he could have ignored him, but no, he looked at Mikey with that sweet, grateful smile and hope in his eyes. That last moment in particular got me thinking about what it would feel like being the answer and fix it guy all the time for a team constantly saving the world, and what it would it feel like to be smart enough to actually have all those answers.

We've seen that when Donnie doesn't have the solution for whatever threat the turtles are facing it stresses both him and the team out and can cause conflict. He is working hard constantly but he is a teen trying to save the world, he doesn't have all the answers even if his brothers think he does. Donnie also adds pressure on himself to be the one getting answers for his family, and when things don't go the way he plans he gets very upset as he feels responsible.

But when Mikey steps in with his unending optimism and encouragement, Donnie seems to light up even if just a little bit as he feels hope again. Even if he knows that Mikey's optimism is not based on scientific facts, those smiles tell me he really appreciates that Mikey still believes in him and manages to have hope that things will get better despite everything they've been through. Those two moments that started this whole theory show me that Mikey can break Donnie out of his negative spiral when he is struggling to see the bright side to a failed mission or invention. Maybe that is also the reason Donnie keeps letting Mikey hang out in his lab with him. Cause no matter how angry Donnie gets at him for messing with his experiments, Mikey's perspective is also the one that gives him renewed hope when his experiments fail.

I also feel that since Donnie is a scientist and has an unending desire to learn and develop his knowledge, he has an understanding of a lot of the ways the world works. And I can imagine having all those answers would cause someone to end up being pessimistic or having a very gloomy outlook on the future of the world, especially with everything the turtles see. All that information ends up making Donnie a realist, and that means he occasionally struggles to have hope or see a bright side to a situation if his knowledge is telling him what their future's reality is. Add that to having to deal with threats that put his family in actual life or death scenarios where if he doesn't have an answer he could loose them...yeah that would take a toll on the mental health.

Donnie needs that optimism and hope from Mikey to bring him back from the pits of the gloomy realities his genius can put him in. 🐢

[forgetful-nerd]

For a guy all about the science, 2012 Donnie has some killer gut instincts.

I need whatever spider-sense bullshit he’s got….

[forgetful-nerd]

“The 2012 B-Team dynamic is so cute!”

The 2012 B-Team’s dynamic, in a nutshell:

This turtle literally use Donnie as a stepping stone once. The disrespect is off the charts.

[pulsing-space-music]

No cuz they’re literally just cat siblings

Donnie is the solitary cat who shoves himself into the tightest corner just to sleep in peace

And Mikey is the cat that comes along and goes “oh the perfect nest!” and just lays on top of Donnie

[slady-ao3]

@tmntobsessionsrus the clingy octopus, lol

[tmntobsessionsrus]

Here, have a pic of Mikey literally picking up and throwing Donnie:

Mikey certainly is more climby and boundary-violating between the two:

But Donnie is not immune 😁:

[mishajeans]

Secret Santa for @amoreanonyname 03 stockshop for your mental health. Hope you like!

[tmntobsessionsrus]

03 StockShop for all your 03 StockShop needs 😁.

[kstarlitchaotics]

So

1990 TMNT Raph gets injured and it's Leo who watches over him where

2003 it's Leo who gets injured but has no bathtub and has the entire family there

And there is 2012 injured Leo with bathtub and loved ones (Raph mostly watches countless hours)

...What's with the tub?

[tmntobsessionsrus]

So to my understanding, the theory was that being in water would help them heal faster. In 1990 you see April pouring water over Raph with her hand at one point. (Presumably it was the same idea with 2012 Leo, but I don't remember if there are any moments showing water in the tub/anyone pouring water on him.) It's a story from the Mirage comics too, and it was Leo then, but I've never read that story and idk if they put him in a tub or not. But yeah, 2k3 didn't do that.

(Also, I have no idea if that's a thing with IRL turtles. Please consult an IRL turtle care provider for that question.)

Incoming semi-related-but-not-really theory:

I do wonder if the tub ended up making things worse for 2012 Leo. I tripped over a theory somewhere recently that 12 Leo's months-long coma was actually brumation, a hibernation-like state turtles go into during colder months. It was clearly early winter and snowing at the time of the invasion at the end of season 2, and Leo getting dunked into the cold water in that fight seems to really mess him up for the rest of the scene until Shredder nearly finishes him off. It's possible the 12 boys don't normally brumate, but the trauma of Leo's injuries combined with the cold threw him into that state, and he woke up in spring.

But if that was the case, the tub may well have made that worse, as empty bathtubs aren't particularly warm, the farmhouse itself was likely drafty, and any water in the tub/on Leo would likely cool off pretty quickly. Bundling Leo into a blanket like 2k3 did may well have woken him up a lot faster.

[pulsing-space-music]

“A lot of stuff here responds to sound” - 12 Mikey referring to everything in Dimension X

Including his brothers

🎶It’s the (middle child) circle of liiiiiiiiiiiiiife🎵

[tmntobsessionsrus]

Leo is not immune 😉.

[d4rk-x-w0lf-17]

god i hate rewatching s3 of the 2012 series so much

ep 3 is the worst cuz like. bro

that's MIKEY, the guy who is way too trusting and open minded about people

if his gut instinct upon meeting you is to KILL YOU, then you fucking trust him

[brightlotusmoon]

Thankfully there are some excellent fics out there that vindicate him, validate him, and give great insight into why Mikey was so upset.

[d4rk-x-w0lf-17]

there are but GOD it's so infuriating that they didn't believe mikey

mikey, the guy who just wants friends and everyone to get along

mikey, the guy who tries to bridge gaps and build relationships

mikey, THE GUY WHO ALWAYS GIVES SOMEONE A SECOND CHANCE

MIKEY, THE GUY WHO ALWAYS SEES THE GOOD IN PEOPLE

[brightlotusmoon]

Yeah. Also, the way he was scolded in the episode where he ran away. They kept trying to backslide on character growth and development. See: why I still dislike the Bigfoot episode.

[d4rk-x-w0lf-17]

im just gonna. steal 2012!mikey and plop him next to 03!mikey and rise!mikey

[brightlotusmoon]

See, now that's just my crossover fic I keep meaning to write.

[d4rk-x-w0lf-17]

IF NO ONE IS GONNA MAKE THE "2012 and rise mikey twins separated at birth" AU, THEN I WILL

[brightlotusmoon]

[tmntobsessionsrus]

As annoying as it is, I get that Leo/Raph/Donnie were all projecting like crazy in that episode.

Leo and Raph both really really wanted a parent to reappear and for an adult to show up. Raph had been taking care of everyone for months, Leo was just getting back on his feet (literally), both were worried sick about Splinter.

Donnie was also worried about Splinter, but was also really focused on April's feelings in that episode (as was Casey). And April obviously wasn't going to be objective about what Mikey was saying.

Even without seeing the things he saw, Mikey was probably the best positioned on an emotional level to question what was happening. It's frustrating, but probably understandable, that none of the others wanted to hear it. (They sure coulda apologized later tho!)

[amoreanonyname]

(From Turtlepedia)

I don't really do with the GIFs and such, and unfortunately couldn't find a gif of this particular scene, but it's sticking with me lately.

This is from the Ancient One episode in Season 4, after Leo has attacked Splinter in a rage, and Splinter is sending him to Japan to mentor under the Ancient One - and this moment is the remaining three brothers listening outside the door while they discuss this.

And I think this is sticking with me because the turtles, for all that they're "teenage", are generally more like young adults in this series, but this is a moment that feels like teenage brothers. They just seem very young here, in a way they usually aren't. Right now, they're not heroes who took down Shredder and a bunch of other foes - they're three of four pretty insular siblings who are basically together 24/7 and don't have "personal business". I'm sure all of us who grew up with siblings tried to eavesdrop on a lecture or punishment at some point! But these three eavesdropping hits different, because it reminds the viewer how much of a unit they are most of the time - of course they're not going to wait to hear about this later, they need to know now, because Leo's business is their business.

I think it also hits me just how upset and concerned they all look (while Leo on the other side of the door is also saying he doesn't want to leave*). Leo's been struggling mentally for months by this point, he's clearly getting worse instead of better, he's frankly been moody and insufferable most of the time - and they're all still mildly freaked out about him actually leaving. Like, for 15 years these guys literally didn't even know other people. They've barely been apart, they even sleep dormitory-style. Imagine how weird and upsetting it must be for them to hear that Leo is getting sent across the planet for an indefinite amount of time.

I don't know, it feels like such a childlike moment for all of them, from this presumptuous "of course we're going to listen in, this concerns us too" to "Holy crap he's leaving and We Are Stressed About It."

* I also feel things about the very fact of Leo needing to leave his family to get better, and how this is one of the only times the show really acknowledges that maybe this whole insular-enmeshment thing isn't always a great family dynamic. Splinter has been trying to help Leo himself, he tried bringing in Usagi, who Leo trusts and respects, and none of it has worked, because so much of Leo's spiral has been about protecting the family, and he's still responsible for the family. Leo has to disconnect completely from them and only worry about himself before he can start to recover, and that combined with everyone's anxiety about him leaving says a lot.

[catbowserauthor]

I always wondered if Splinter had to explain to any of the others (probably Mikey) that Leo isn’t being sent away to be punished, but because he needs help they can’t give him. I could absolutely see them reacting with “he made a mistake, don’t send him away!”

…damn, another story bunny🐰

[tmntobsessionsrus]

You know, I can see Mikey being understanding about it - in the previous episode, he was talking about all the stress Leo was under, he was sort of joking about it in Scion of the Shredder, he seemed to get that it wasn't a punishment and that Leo needed some help.

That said, I can definitely see Raph struggling more with it for a bunch of reasons. There are hints that he struggles with rejection and perceived abandonment in general. The perception that Leo's anger had led to him getting sent away would probably hit him hard, even if he understood that it wasn't intended as a punishment. I can see a real "maybe it could be me next" feeling from that. Especially since he and the others had joked several times that "Leo was acting like Raph."

Additionally, Raph seems to be the one who takes charge when Leo isn't around (and did so during Karai's attack in Scion of the Shredder), so he might end up feeling a lot of pressure on that front - he seemed pretty agitated when Leo found him in Prodigal Son and he wasn't sure if the others were alright.

Finally, and this is semi-headcanon territory for me, but I perceive Raph and Leo as being pretty close in 2k3. They bicker, but there are a bunch of moments through the series of the two rather pointedly spending time together away from the other two, and they seem to trust and rely on each other in a slightly different way than they do with the other two, over whom they both feel more protective. So just Leo away would probably be hard on him.

Yes, plot bunnies indeed... I may have to write my own!

[catbowserauthor]

Oooh, I think they all would have such fun emotions dealing with this. Have they ever really been separated before? For any long length of time? I don’t think they have. That’s a lot to deal with!

[tmntobsessionsrus]

I was also thinking about poor Donny when I wrote that! There's such a potential rabbithole there, with his whole SAINW trauma, where losing a member of his family, even temporarily, could feel so triggering for him. There are also already hints by then of him blaming himself in similar ways as Leo when things go wrong, which gets further explored with his character in later seasons, so I could also see him wondering if he could/should have done more. I understand why Show didn't go there (there was already a lot of focus on Leo's feelings and mental health in that arc, in what was essentially an action-oriented kids show), but in fic, that could be a lot to explore.

This really is the first time the brothers get separated for any substantial amount of time (like, longer than a few hours or maybe a day or two). I imagine it was hard on all of them in different ways.

[amoreanonyname]

(From Turtlepedia)

I don't really do with the GIFs and such, and unfortunately couldn't find a gif of this particular scene, but it's sticking with me lately.

This is from the Ancient One episode in Season 4, after Leo has attacked Splinter in a rage, and Splinter is sending him to Japan to mentor under the Ancient One - and this moment is the remaining three brothers listening outside the door while they discuss this.

And I think this is sticking with me because the turtles, for all that they're "teenage", are generally more like young adults in this series, but this is a moment that feels like teenage brothers. They just seem very young here, in a way they usually aren't. Right now, they're not heroes who took down Shredder and a bunch of other foes - they're three of four pretty insular siblings who are basically together 24/7 and don't have "personal business". I'm sure all of us who grew up with siblings tried to eavesdrop on a lecture or punishment at some point! But these three eavesdropping hits different, because it reminds the viewer how much of a unit they are most of the time - of course they're not going to wait to hear about this later, they need to know now, because Leo's business is their business.

I think it also hits me just how upset and concerned they all look (while Leo on the other side of the door is also saying he doesn't want to leave*). Leo's been struggling mentally for months by this point, he's clearly getting worse instead of better, he's frankly been moody and insufferable most of the time - and they're all still mildly freaked out about him actually leaving. Like, for 15 years these guys literally didn't even know other people. They've barely been apart, they even sleep dormitory-style. Imagine how weird and upsetting it must be for them to hear that Leo is getting sent across the planet for an indefinite amount of time.

I don't know, it feels like such a childlike moment for all of them, from this presumptuous "of course we're going to listen in, this concerns us too" to "Holy crap he's leaving and We Are Stressed About It."

* I also feel things about the very fact of Leo needing to leave his family to get better, and how this is one of the only times the show really acknowledges that maybe this whole insular-enmeshment thing isn't always a great family dynamic. Splinter has been trying to help Leo himself, he tried bringing in Usagi, who Leo trusts and respects, and none of it has worked, because so much of Leo's spiral has been about protecting the family, and he's still responsible for the family. Leo has to disconnect completely from them and only worry about himself before he can start to recover, and that combined with everyone's anxiety about him leaving says a lot.

[catbowserauthor]

I always wondered if Splinter had to explain to any of the others (probably Mikey) that Leo isn’t being sent away to be punished, but because he needs help they can’t give him. I could absolutely see them reacting with “he made a mistake, don’t send him away!”

…damn, another story bunny🐰

[tmntobsessionsrus]

You know, I can see Mikey being understanding about it - in the previous episode, he was talking about all the stress Leo was under, he was sort of joking about it in Scion of the Shredder, he seemed to get that it wasn't a punishment and that Leo needed some help.

That said, I can definitely see Raph struggling more with it for a bunch of reasons. There are hints that he struggles with rejection and perceived abandonment in general. The perception that Leo's anger had led to him getting sent away would probably hit him hard, even if he understood that it wasn't intended as a punishment. I can see a real "maybe it could be me next" feeling from that. Especially since he and the others had joked several times that "Leo was acting like Raph."

Additionally, Raph seems to be the one who takes charge when Leo isn't around (and did so during Karai's attack in Scion of the Shredder), so he might end up feeling a lot of pressure on that front - he seemed pretty agitated when Leo found him in Prodigal Son and he wasn't sure if the others were alright.

Finally, and this is semi-headcanon territory for me, but I perceive Raph and Leo as being pretty close in 2k3. They bicker, but there are a bunch of moments through the series of the two rather pointedly spending time together away from the other two, and they seem to trust and rely on each other in a slightly different way than they do with the other two, over whom they both feel more protective. So just Leo away would probably be hard on him.

Yes, plot bunnies indeed... I may have to write my own!

[cabbt]

This was just supposed to be a simple mindless mirrored drawing to practice vector art and somehow it became this massive 2003 eulogy with tons of references everywhere. I'm really happy with how it came out! :D

I can't tell you the amount of hours I spent on this. If you can find all the references... I'm gonna be amazed honestly because there are so many, from logos, to patterns to even colors. I'd be there all day if I tried describing them all, but I do hope you'll check it out! ^^

Close ups under the cut.

[tmntobsessionsrus]

You seem to have a low opinion on Raph is what I mean like you are saying Donnie trusts Leo so he doesn’t argue with him but with Raph he would argue it seems like with your posts Raph is usually seen lesser then Leo

Fae, are you aware this is the fourth time at least that you've sent me something like this? Generally on anon. I don't know why you pick anon for these asks, but you're the only one I get messages like this from, and it doesn't make you look good.

I went out of my way in that post to point out that Don's differing reactions to Leo and Raph mostly aren't about Raph personally, but about the circumstances they're generally in when Raph is in charge. Leo gone, weakened, they're in danger. And yes, Raph's relative lack of experience in leadership compared to Leo, and his flaw of impulsiveness he himself acknowledges, are also parts of it. Don knows Raph needs different things from him when he's in charge, vs what Leo needs when he's in charge, and he adjusts his approach.

(And even as I wrote that, and tried to couch it as much as possible, I knew you, specifically, would react badly to it. That's not good, Fae.)

Yes, I pointed out a flaw Raphael has. That's not having a low opinion of a character. Liking a character doesn't mean you think they're perfect or have no flaws. I also pointed out a flaw in Don's leadership skills the next paragraph down. Did you read that far? I've talked about flaws Leo and Mikey have in other metas I've written. You're certainly not obligated to read everything I write, but I suspect you only read the things I write about Raph, and think you can glean my opinions of him in contrast to the other characters based on that?

I've said before that I don't need to justify my opinions or writings to you, and I stand by that. I recall the last time this all happened, I indicated I'd block you if you did it again. I should stand by that, and I'll probably wish I did later. I still don't want to resort to that yet, but you need to understand that if you can't interact with my posts in a respectful way, that's where this will end up. For now, I'm turning off anon. If you want to send me anything else, you need to put your name on it.

If you're utterly convinced I hate Raph and you don't believe my previous comments on the topic, do us both a favour and stop interacting with my posts yourself. Stop being rude to real people over fictional characters. I'm not going to explain myself to you a fifth, sixth, or seventh time.

[tmntobsessionsrus]

I'm gonna go back to my 2k3 Leo and Mikey/Raph and Donnie meta-ing shortly, but one brief thing I wanted to scream about first:

There's a pattern in 2k3 on the occasions when Raph is in charge or giving orders, and Leo is gone or injured or expiating his mental breakdown onto the Rat King or whatever.

But Raph starts giving orders, and Donnie starts... sort of challenging them. Not in an aggressive or argumentative way the way Raph might with Leo, but almost in a "hey, I'm not sure you're considering all the factors here" way.

Typically, he's telling Raph things are too dangerous and they need to retreat/escape/get out of there. Because Raph is a capable leader in these moments, but he's always consistently had an issue with wanting to fight when he shouldn't, and not wanting to retreat when he should. A bunch of his arguments with Leo are about him wanting to charge into situations when Leo wants to take a more measured approach, and when Leo makes them fall back, he's always the last to actually do so. Raph wants to face his enemies head-on and he wants to fight to the end - but in leading the others (and especially given that the team is automatically weaker without Leo), he can't do that.

So Donnie starts getting more vocal that hey, there are too many of these guys and we can't do this. Rat King is too strong, it's dangerous for Leo to fight him alone. I know this is our home and we need to defend it, but there's a zillion of them and now we're all injured and if we don't leave, someone's gonna get killed.

But I just find it interesting that Don takes up that role when Raph is in charge. I'm not sure if Splinter taught them to do this (or ever specifically taught Donnie, given that he's not generally leader nor second-in-command), or if he knows to do this from watching Leo and Raph. But he knows that alongside the leader calling the shots, there has to be a second-in-command looking out for that leader's blind spots, making sure the orders are sound and thought-out, and challenging that leader as needed. He becomes Raph's Raph, whenever Raph has to be Leo.

[technicallysublimechild]

Love these observations!

I don't think it's something that's taught or necessarily even consciously done. They are a team, they've trained together all their lives, they know each other's strengths and weaknesses. And they're not always together, they go off on adventures by themselves or in groups of two or three sometimes. They learn to adapt, step up to fill in vacuums, because generally with the 03 boys there isn't a power struggle, it's not about who's on top - it's about who is taking charge, who has noticed something about the situation, who has a different view. They generally feel comfortable to speak up if they disagree on something (though maybe less so while Leo was really struggling), it's just mostly Don and Leo tend to be on the same wavelength, Raph is normally the one to have a different opinion, and Mikey doesn't generally feel the need to jump in, he's pretty comfortable going with whatever everyone else is doing (unless creepy monsters are involved XD). But they all are capable, and Don and Raph are just generally going to have different views on things so he's going to voice those opinions.

It feels like they are this fluid team that can change and adapt as needed, though still kind of fall in some general dynamics based on personality. Could Mikey lead? Sure, he's capable enough, but in the dynamics of his family he's least likely to step up. Don could lead too, but he has no problem deferring to Raph who is just generally a bit more assertive, but he will absolutely push back. I think he'd push back against Leo too if he really felt strongly about something.

I don't know what my point is. I just think it's really fun seeing how they can adapt as the configuration of their group changes. It's not like they change, or their dynamics hugely change, but I think it definitely puts pressure on different dynamics that usually aren't tested - Raph and Donnie don't normally HAVE to be at odds, so Donnie acting in the role of pushing back on Raph's choices is going to strain that relationship a bit until they are able to find a comfortable equilibrium, but it's not like Donnie wouldn't push against Leo or Raph if needed in other circumstances.

The 2003 crew just really feel like a very cohesive unit to me, which is one of the reasons I really still love this iteration. But I'll stop rambling now lol.

[yellowhollyhock]

I really love that it's not a source of contention with them. They have fights when the disagreement is over something Big, especially unsafe, like they all get annoyed with Leo when he gets that sword from Shredder. But even then they're trying to keep it at teasing, they confront him before bringing it to Splinter, and they all give him space to be wrong safely. City at War is really the only time I can think of when Raph pushes back against Leo's call to the point if it becoming a Fight, and that's a big deal.

Because normally, Leo listens to Raph's suggestions, or explains his reasoning, and Raph respects Leo's talent for strategy and waits when he says to wait. He'll tease Leo about being 'Splinter Junior,' but that's more for when he's trying to convince him to join the rest of them in a bit of teenage rebellion--which, maybe it reveals some underlying tension, but the tension seems very light compared to the warmth.

It's the same when it's Donny and Raph. He sees the blind spots and brings things up. Raph listens. When he has a good reason for letting Leo take all this alone, he explains it without getting mad at Don for questioning him. On the other hand, as much ad he does not want at all to abandon their home or have to split up, he looks around at the situation, sees that Donny is right, and lends his authority and assertiveness to the idea, later taking responsibility for it as if it were his call when he sees Leo again.

There's a lot of respect, and it does show kind of a half-step up from their usual level of maturity with each other. Which makes sense for serious situations.

Also, about Donny pushing back against Leo too in other circumstances--yes! He's very firm about going back to the Underground City; only Mikey pushes back, but Leo and Raph do seem to be responding to 'this is important to Donny' at least as much as 'this is important to do.' In City at War, Donny does keep saying that this is a lot, that they're in over their heads. He just says it a lot more calmly, which is also the case when he pushes back against Raph. Except he's also not often saying it directly to Leo because Raph is already doing that, and we see right from the start of the episode that Donny is more bothered by the family tension it's causing than anything else (which is why he goes once he sees it matter to Mikey). One of the best examples is J'hanna--Leo and Raph are both ready to fight, and Mikey would have gone along with it, and Donny is firm getting them to stand down while he tries to communicate. Also, when Leo scolds them at the end of Dragons Rising, it's Don who counters him.

Anyway it reminds me a lot of grocery shopping with my older sisters and younger brother, which is kinda crazy, why did we take that so seriously ahshdjaj (actually it's because shopping involves driving and we were right for that). There is a Pecking Order, except that's a bad term to use because it's not about who gets to domineer or pick on the others, it's who's most experienced and therefore in charge, and who's responsible for helping them shoulder that, and at what point do the rest of us also try to help so that it's not all on them but we're also not creating chaos with 4 leaders. Driver and shotgun, es importante

And if we were cooking/cleaning instead of driving, I was more likely to fall near the top of that, depending on specifics (they have all become better cooks than me which is honestly delightful). Just like if they're setting up the lair or doing vehicle maintenance, they all defer to Don.

[tmntobsessionsrus]

These are such interesting points! Especially about how the brothers automatically adapt to whichever configurations they're in and make up for each other's weaknesses. That's all very true.

And it does make me realize that the way Don acts with both Leo and Raph still fundamentally ties into his role on the team - he's the information guy. It's true that he can and does push back or assert himself when he needs to, but a major part of what he does when they're together is maintain situational awareness and feed a bunch of information to whoever's in charge. He just sort of tailors what he looks for and how he says it.

I feel with Leo most of the time, he's more matter of fact. I think he trusts Leo a lot as leader, he usually isn't interested in arguing with Leo's orders or decisions unless something is really important to him or he sees a really good reason to. And the four of them are strongest together, so everyone is usually feeling pretty confident. But he does provide Leo with as much information as he can about their surroundings or what they're up against, so Leo can incorporate those facts into his decisions. Leo relies on Don a lot for this too, as he himself acknowledges during the Good Genes arc. I've written elsewhere that "if Leo seems like he has all the answers, it's because Don is slipping him notes."

With Raph, Don's input tends to be more immediate and urgent, but I don't think this is strictly to do with Raph or how he leads. It's more that, in any situation that doesn't involve Leo, they're already weakened. The situation is already dangerous, and in some of the situations where Leo's been taken out, that's been part of a targeted operation by the Foot to completely overwhelm them. And yes, Don knows Raph is a great fighter, but that he may get caught up in the adrenaline of the situation. So Don takes up the calculating and strategizing Leo would normally do, and makes sure Raph keeps his situational awareness that a) they're one brother down (one of the stronger brothers too) and in a weakened state, and b) there are dozens of Foot streaming into wherever they are, entirely intent on killing them.

In the vein that Don is capable of also leading (as is Mikey), I do find this interesting when Donny and Mikey are together. I tend to interpret their dynamic as Donny being more or less in charge between the two of them, and definitely the strategist - but it tends to be a very collaborative pairing, Mikey is probably more active and assertive with Don than he usually is when paired with Leo or Raph. Mikey's fairly deferential to all three, despite his usual joking and goofing around, but I feel when he and Don are together, Mikey suddenly starts popping in with extra information and suggestions, he's asking more questions, he's improvising when things go wrong, he even orders Don to do things sometimes! While Donny is a strong strategist, I find he doesn't always pivot well if his plans start going off the rails. He tends to rely on Raph or Mikey to sort of act fast and bail them out when that happens. But it is that adaptability again. It's not that Mikey trusts Donny less or sees him as less capable, it's that when there are three or more brothers together, he doesn't need to jump in much because he knows they have it covered. When it's just the two of them, he knows he needs to take a more active role.

Anyway, it's an interesting study in their dynamics, and how they shift and adapt depending on how many of them are together, to cover each other's strengths and weaknesses.

[poll-position]

Okay, that’s enough doom scrolling for today. Choose one of these things to do, instead…

Cook something new, or at least look through some cookbooks for inspiration

Read or write some fanfic (for your favorite franchise, or for a new one)

Go for a long walk or run, or simply work out (with music or without)

Play a video game (make a new character, if necessary)

Play a board game (or cards) with friends or family

Break out the coloring book and colored pencils you bought but haven’t used yet

Read a book (one you love, or one you haven’t read yet)

Make a new YouTube account and follow only the channels that make you happy

Start a new arts and crafts project (or finish an old one)

Watch a favorite movie or show (or a new one you’ve been putting off watching)

Teach yourself a new skill (knitting, crochetting, juggling, bottle-flipping…)

Be a cat (eat, nap, lounge in the sun, scream, snuggle, claw the curtains)

Voting ended onJun 30, 2025

[tmntobsessionsrus]

Happy Father's Day to all the dads, single dads, adoptive dads, rat dads, creepy eldritch horror egg dads, and brotherdads!

Just ignore Raph glowering in the background.

[forgetful-nerd]

Daily reminder that—

In season 5, Donatello helped Dr. Victor Frankenstein make his infamous monster (dubbed Frank by Michelangelo).

So he knows the formula needed to reanimate the dead.