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@abyssalmemorial
Sorry I haven't been posting very regularly! I'm still largely organizing my thoughts and forming theories about new info from chapter 5.
In the meantime, my ask box is still very much open! Although, if you're looking for more in-depth responses, I strongly recommend keeping your questions and/or theories concise and focused on a singular topic.
fun idea: in the main route, the party manages to help Dess sort of become herself again. maybe before finally passing on, maybe not--maybe she lives.
in the weird route, Noelle and Kris unceremoniously kill the Knight. Noelle never learns what happens to her sister.
Not sure if anyone's ever theorized about this, but I'm fully convinced that The Device has a signal jammer that's responsible for Hometown's Wi-Fi being out.
Tentative timeline for chapter 6:
- Susie shows Noelle the Castle Town dark world.
- Noelle learns that dark worlds are real and remembers how to create a dark fountain.
- Noelle goes home and creates a dark fountain in her home to try to heal Rudy.
- The fun gang enters the dark world, which is Ice Palace themed.
- Just when we need Ralsei's fire magic the most, they leave the party.
- Noelle joins the party as the new healer.
- Some Ice Palace sections are/can be replicated. (Trying to guess which ones and how requires more posts.)
Question: Why would Noelle, who created the dark fountain, join the team with the objective of closing it?
What happens next I don't know. If chapter 5 was the last light hearted chapter, I don't expect a funny and quotable antagonist.
Having said that, the posts on Noelle's blog do seem to point towards something appearing. Maybe the SPECIAL, over-moded, weird sound making, "left home due to happiness" creature from her Cat Petterz game. Which could be FRIEND (again) because cats, or the tail of hell because circles (Or both). Either as an antagonist or secret boss (although we already have all shadow crystals). There was a connection between Noelle and Spamton with the pipis spam email virus, and they loosely interacted in Chapter 2.
Rudy will be there, and probably Carol too. If Dess is the Knight, this would be a great moment for that to pay off, although I expect the Knight rematch to be in Chapter 7 in the bunker dark world, so it's the same in all routes and is what's foreshadowed by the ERAM fight.
I agree with almost everything on your timeline besides a few points:
1. I don't think that Noelle will make the chapter's main fountain. Rather, I believe either Carol or the Knight will (with a slight lean toward the latter).
2. I think the chapter will contain the Knight rematch. Given it took 3 chapters to fight the Knight the first time, it feels fitting for the rematch to happen after another 3. However, I think the rematch will be pushed back to chapter 7, inside the Shelter, in the Weird Route.
3. I think that Noelle's newfound dark world knowledge will instead come into play at the very end of the chapter, where she will start the Roaring in reaction to Rudy dusting.
I would also add these points to the timeline:
1. Carol will be the chapter's forefront antagonist, but she will have a darkner henchman (possibly Dess's guitar) who overthrows or backstabs her to act as the true antagonist.
2. Rudy, although present in the dark world, will be "fallen down" for the entire chapter. To Noelle and Carol's dismay, healing magic won't work on him.
3. The Knight will try kidnapping Carol.
I see a lot of people torn between the Holiday home (because of its code and design of the place) and the hospital (because Rudy fell down) for the dark world of chapter 6, even suggesting that maybe it's both in the same chapter. But honestly? Knowing Carol, I feel like she would just demand the hospital staff to move their work and Rudy over to their home. (It might even be how we get to see more of their bedroom) Thus, we can have both the Holiday Ice Palace and Rudy revived via darkness.
I actually think we have evidence that Rudy is home.
When Noelle picks up the phone the first time, she says:
But think about what this means.
Surely, if Carol opened with "Come to the hospital, right now", Noelle's reaction wouldn't be "What? No, no, I can't right now...", surely Noelle is smart enough to realize that if she's being called to the Hospital, that Something Big is Happening.
I think this has to suggest that Rudy was taken home for hospice care. Maybe the hospital staff are working from there now, but, more likely, his condition is critical enough that there's nothing else that can be done.
The JP version of the "Fell down at the festival" line uses the same sort of phrasing as the Alarm Clock dialog does for Rudy having "fell down", which would support the idea that he has Fallen Down in a monster biology sense.
And, well...
Even in UNDERTALE, with actual magic and science working in tandem, a Fallen Down monster is effectively already dead. So, it makes sense to transfer him home. There is nothing more that can be done for him.
The Holiday Manor Dark World is Real. Just as I foresaw...
I hate it when I'm really loving a Deltarune analysis post only for the OP to off-handedly dismiss Gaster's narrative importance using some hilariously half-baked rationalization. Because now the OP has me second-guessing not only the quality of their post but also their media analysis skills as a whole, and for what? So they could avoid giving further thought to a character who nobody forced them to address in the first place?
If you have zero personal interest in Gaster or the direction of his character, that's totally fine! Nobody ever said that you're required to care about him. However, in such case, I strongly recommend that you either just state as much or exclude him from your posts entirely.
[ID: OP's tags reading: "The fastest way to get me to disregard your entire post is by dismissing Gaster's importance. Like, oh yeah, Toby just built up this character for over a decade for him not to be important. Yep. LMAO."]
I think Gaster is going to be important, and a real character, as opposed to permanently a creepypasta mystery guy, for the same reason I think Toby isn't going to asspull some stupid twist like Rudy Knight. Toby's body of work is, in large part, about sincerity; and a Gaster-minimized position makes the years of intrigue built up around the character amount to... nothing, ultimately.
I hate it when I'm really loving a Deltarune analysis post only for the OP to off-handedly dismiss Gaster's narrative importance using some hilariously half-baked rationalization. Because now the OP has me second-guessing not only the quality of their post but also their media analysis skills as a whole, and for what? So they could avoid giving further thought to a character who nobody forced them to address in the first place?
If you have zero personal interest in Gaster or the direction of his character, that's totally fine! Nobody ever said that you're required to care about him. However, in such case, I strongly recommend that you either just state as much or exclude him from your posts entirely.
With how vague Deltarune continues to be about the seemingly complex circumstances of Dess's disappearance, I feel like we're almost guaranteed to recieve an extended, possibly playable flashback sequence at some point.
I'm not getting my hopes up for a "chapter 0" just yet, but the odds of one happening are looking increasingly likely.
If Seth's use of a 4-letter preferred name is intended to parallel Dess, then I wonder what that means for Dess's relationship with Asriel. After all, he addresses her using exclusively her unshortened name within the single direct "exchange" we have between the two (that being the love letter in his drawer).
Methinks Asriel's crush on Dess may have been more one-sided than we've been led to believe.
how do you feel about theories that say the final prophecy involves kris' soul being taken
related: how might this be understood in or rejected by a krispreservation framework
I think the only major difference is, "Kris's SOUL is taken" would be synonymous with "gets fucking sacrificed". Which we're still very confident in after this chapter (they were visibly pale after just a few hours without it)
Although we're less confident that their sacrifice comes from the Final Tragedy. That seems to be focused heavily on Susie (specifically on The Girl), given both Ralsei's urgency in hiding it from her specifically, and how much Susie is focusing on Noelle, yet is hesitant to say the L-word around her. That's right, Lesbian Love, which finds its way
The original plan between Kris and the Knight was likely for Susie to die as part of the Tragedy. That's why the Knight warns Kris about their promise when Susie declares her intentions to change it. Because without Susie, the Tragedy may instead fall upon Noelle. I think, regardless of who the Knight is or what they've become, they'll at least want Noelle to be safe. The only fountain they've been confirmed to make was the Noelle Goes to the City Like Her Sister Promised World, after all
I think if there's a Kris sacrifice in the works, it'd be something they try to do on their own, using their SOUL, and DEEP AGONIZING YEARNING, to die in her place. Which could fulfill the "Love finds its way" requirement (although I'm still not sure how much the Prophecy can be "rules lawyered" in the leadup to its predictions. So far it is only the aftermaths that can be mitigated)
All I'm saying is, there's zero chance a Kris sacrifice isn't literally in the works, either as part of their original plan with the Knight, or with Carol/on their own. I'm personally still hoping out that the Knight isn't gunning for Kris as a sacrifice, if only because even after the Final Tragedy is revealed, they still seem to be on fairly good terms (the whole "another hand pressed against yours" seeming more like they're both resigned to a fate they can't defy) and only invokes Kris's Promise in response to Susie's desire to change the Final Tragedy
So I guess to sum that up:
Knight wants Final Tragedy to play out (ie. Susie gets it the worst)
Kris wants it to fall on them (potentially preparing to sacrifice themself to do it)
Susie doesn't want it to happen at all
Carol... might be a bystander in this. Like, after seeing Asgore being just as in the dark about the Kris/Knight conspiracy as anyone else, I'm not even sure she's as involved anymore. Or if she still is, she was hiding stuff even from Asgore, who had access to her conspiracy board and everything, which seems unfitting because where else is she going to put her most sensitive findings except in her own room?
I think this very well could be a case where the real scheming is between Kris and the Knight, while Carol and Asgore have been trying to figure things out, and now he's been taken, which will lead to Carol having her big moment of character development now that Rudy is almost certainly either dead or dying.
So what do you think of the new Pink dialouge. To me, unless the Knight(Dess) is ERAM (the one character we see commanding FRIENDS), it seems likely Dess "left" due to trying to hide from FRIENDS who chose her as their hunting targets. Certainly going from a normal lightner to the knight WOULD be a pretty massive change that would throw off something like FRIEND.
Considering FRIEND is tied to Gaster, who we know will help us beat the knight by resetting the fight against it (not to mention ERAM potentially being the voice behind the weird route ARG), it seems likely Dess and Gaster don't quite see eye to eye. Or at least a break down in their relationship happened that put them in odds (akin to what happened with Spamton).
We only received the dialogue a few days ago, so I'm still largely processing it. At the moment, though, my thoughts on ERAM, the Knight, and FRIEND remain mostly unchanged.
ERAM still feels inseparably linked with the Knight: The beginning of their battle themes, their associations with the Shadow Mantle, their "friendly" (with heavy quotation marks) relationships with Kris... If they aren't just outright the same character, then ERAM is at the very least a reflection of/parallel to the Knight.
The Knight still seems to be working with/for Gaster: With seeming confirmation of ERAM/the Knight possessing some level of control over FRIEND, my theory that Gaster and Dess are working together seems stronger than ever! After all, why would Gaster relinquish control over one of his creations to someone he doesn't trust? Regarding Gaster allowing us to refight the Knight: he already knew beforehand that we'd lose regardless of how many attacks we survived; he says as much himself before giving us our "retry" button. With this in mind, it seems infinitely more likely that he let us retry the fight out of sheer scientific intrigue rather than in a self-admittedly futile attempt to combat the Knight/Dess.
FRIEND still only seems loosely involved in Dess's disappearance: Had they been tormenting/hunting Dess for the weeks leading up to her disappearance, I feel like we'd have been able to find at least a drawing of FRIEND (or any other form of evidence of a pre-disappearance encounter between the two) in her bedroom. So, until further notice, I remain in my belief that Dess only encountered FRIEND right before her plunge into the Depths.
There's absolutely zero chance that the inevitable Holiday Manor dark world won't be the Ice Palace: Not only is it already an extravagant, winter-themed mansion, but it technically also meets the criteria to qualify as a palace by virtue of belonging to a high-ranking political figure, I.E. the mayor of Hometown.
on the topic of Kris' Knife. dya think we're ever going to see it's Dark World counterpart at some point. i see it being an equippable weapon more so than a full-fledged Darkner. but who knows.
i'd imagine it'd probably end up being the best weapon for Kris in the game in terms of raw damage. like Chara's Real Knife. and in the Dark World. if a pencil is a sword. then perhaps the knife is a greatsword.
That Knife is such a stickler, almost as much of an enigma as Ralsei the way it seemingly breaks the rules, and yet like Ralsei it must be operating on its own consistent rules we just don't know yet. Take said goat in point, who has stated emphatically this chapter that they have been operating WITHIN the rules this whole time, and actually deviating from them would be CATASTROPHICALLY BAD
Right now my best solution is "it doesn't become anything for the same reason the How To Draw Dragons book didn't become anything in the Dark World, even though the cactus right next to it did. You can spend eternity contemplating this, but you won't get anything out of it so you might as well not worry about it." The knife represents their Promise to the Knight, and that's all it needs to be for now
Because the alternative is getting into Teleporting Knives, Kris Actually Has Two Knives, and other things that border on Bigger Luke levels of theorycrafting. Ralsei Knife Theory is another that comes to mind, and goes hand in hand with Teleporting Knife Theory, and runs into problems like Ralsei staying in the dark world with Susie even when Kris leaves, multiple times (chapters 2, 4 and 5 as of now)
Now, the Black Knife, is either literally Dess's bat (the cracked baseball bat in Noelle's wallpaper most likely), or otherwise an actual black knife like the one we own, which would make it on par with the Real Knife in the dark world. Maybe Kris is holding back this weapon for some reason, like how they only gain X-Slash under specific circumstances. But I doubt it when the Twisted Sword and Black Shard both exist as potential weapons, and the former requires such extreme lengths potentially to obtain
I believe the knife not transforming in the dark world is meant to symbolize that Kris, in spite of their cynicism, is still not entirely emotionally detached from the events of each chapter. If they truly wished it so, their knife would turn into an insta-SWOON god weapon and allow us breeze through each chapter. Yet, for their own sake and/or Susie's and Ralsei's, Kris repeatedly chooses to forgo the "easy" solution to each chapter's conflict in favor of making an effort to emotionally engage with the stories being told.
The Knight, on the other hand, may as well be the literal embodiment of cynicism: Despite all of their dark world escapades, we're yet to catch wind of them emotionally engaging with a single darkner. Not even the Old Man, a darkner patterned after a lightner who the Knight clearly cared for deeply, recieved a single sign of acknowledgement from them. On top of that, two of the Knight's three notable appearances in the story thus far have involved them mercilessly cutting down beloved, charismatic darkners for little to no reason.
With the above in mind, of course the Knight's blade manifests as a "fuck you, I win" weapon in the dark world: It represents the ultimate middle finger to the very idea of becoming emotionally invested in fiction.
NEW FRIEND LORE I REPEAT NEW FUCKING FRIEND LORE
You get this dialogue if:
You've defeated Pink
You got the egg
You got hit by Red Friend
Just wanted to add this moreso for myself as future reference. This post from the deltarune subreddit breaks down this dialogue quite well I think:
Of course don't take this as gospel or anything but it's very interesting!
So I've seen a lot of people pointing out the 'drawing of three people thing' and claiming this means Undertale Sans came from Deltarunes weird route, and I just wanna point something out:
SANS' PHRASING IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN ROUTES.
In weird route he says "draw you and your friends", but in normal route he only says "draw your friends".
SUSIE DOESN'T DRAW HERSELF IN NORMAL ROUTE.
THE DRAWING IS OF THREE PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF ROUTE.
When I say "Dess is the Knight," I don't mean it metaphorically or rhetorically or poetically or theoretically or in any other fancy way.
I believe Dess is the Knight. Straight up.
