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we all know what i’m going to say about the blowback via dangerous girl trope that has been going on lately
the trope has always been specifically about giving and recognizing a teenage grrls need for agency, control, body autonomy and the right to their sexuality/orientation, whether it is or isn’t a part of their life.
it’s not about them being “dangerous” or “bored”. it’s about them being humans. something society has never recognized or allowed them to be.
Why do you think the Lisbon girls committed suicide?
Here specifically are Amy’s opinions because they’re more well-versed in this book than I:
As for the Lisbon girls. First, I think it’s important to note how we’re not meant to know. We’re not even meant to guess, not exactly, we’re meant to wonder. We only see a tiny slice of these girls, through a stolen diary and through the eyes of boys, of all things. There’s no way we ever could understand.
But for theories. I think a lot of it comes from the disenfranchisement of Lux. She realises certain things, like sex and love are shallow, and these are the things people consider huge parts of life. Without them, it must have seemed a little pointless. Alternately, one could see it as them preserving their youth, making themselves even more untouchable. Their youth wouldn’t fade away into memories, that would be all they ever were.
Another theory: the loss of freedom they experienced when they were grounded, they realised it could be like that for the rest of their lives. Always people deciding what they could or could not do, never truly free. Or maybe they just missed their sister.
And mine: I think that as a group of teenage girls, especially ones who were desired or looked upon often, that the pressure of society made them see or believe that death is the ultimate privacy. It’s the ultimate choice/power/control/freedom/way of owning themselves and their bodies. They choose how they’re seen/touched/viewed. They choose the methods of their death, it’s not uniform. They’re all different. It’s an art. A true self-expression.
in your opinion, what is the significance of the lake as a symbol in the fever? i love your analysis on dare me and the fever btw. :))
and anon: in the fever, what is the lake a metaphor for? first i thought maybe puberty/sexual awakening of the girls with all the "changing" & "being marked in ways you can't see" by both sex & the lake, but then it seemed like the so-called "virus" is that metaphor & it doesn't fit bc deenie's mom went in the lake & "changed" as well, not just teen girls. so what do YOU think it stands for?
I went to amy for this because well, it’s like mandatory now. So here’s what we think:
Obviously we know that the lake is a symbol of transformation. It can relate to all the old connotations of water - washing clean, washing off spells, washing off a man’s touch.
but it also is a symbol of female sexuality - it’s deadly, haunted, no one goes in. a symbol of the girls. boys drowned in it. which makes it a perfect symbol to comment on the taboo of female sexuality (young especially). It’s where girls lose control of their bodies, it’s roped off... but people touch anyways, despite the danger. Everyone talks about it. It’s legendary.
It wasn’t Skye or Gabby that went in, no they left. It was Deenie and Lise that reveled in it, they were the ones in control of their bodies in their own way. Which is why Gabby took tht away with a different kind of magic. There's a little of the faux-persona too, Skye thought Gabby was something more than she was. Meanwhile Lise and Deenie had nothing to hide from each other. Nothing to lose in the water. Dark vs. Light magic. Dark magic leaves a mark but it doesn’t always douse light.
Regarding Deenie’s mother and how sick she got, it could be that she was older. Or it was about her marriage. Or she was already changed in so many ways that the lake itself wouldn’t accept it.
is the ship taking in count that amma is underage
as i just said, it may not be in the way you’re obviously thinking.
amma and camille have a bond even deeper than sisters and that’s canon, i.e. the moment when they kiss in the book. it’s not a sexual ship but it is an acknowledgement of their dynamic.
camille sees herself in amma. amma sees her future in camille. they’re important to each other’s growth.
it’s not about “wanting them together” because that’s not about what these two’s dynamic is about at all. it’s about how these two need each other and it may not be in a way that is strictly sisterly. as they really didn’t see each other as sisters for all of amma’s life.
so the underage part, not really a factor. because it’s not a sexual relationship or a romantic relationship. it’s just a relationship. it’s the biggest one they’ve ever been in. and that’s why it’s important to note. why i love to dissect it and revel in it with other users on here. because it’s complex and interesting. and because canonly, it’s each character’s most important connection.
amma changed camille.
camille changed amma.
they’re more than important, they’re catalysts. they’re dynamic isn’t as simple as you want to put it. it can’t fit into a box. it’s so much bigger than that.
let me also say, because sometimes you don’t follow me, that this is not a romantic ship. so don’t come to me with this again.
Hey Savs, I don't know if you answered this before - and I'm so sorry to waste your time if you have! - but I was wondering if you had any photography/photographer recs that embody the 'there's something dangerous anout the boredom of teenage girls' trope? Books & movies are great but I'm a photographer myself & I feel much more inspired/awed by a subject when it's tackled in photography :) Thanks in advance!
I do have a favorite photographers tag here. It includes of course, Petra Collins (the ultimate) and Hana Haley, among others.
C Heads is the best site for this genre and it features TONS of different photographers.
There also is Rookie Mag’s Eye Candy.
Two tumblr user masterposts here and here.
And when the network I’m in, teengirlnet, releases their masterpost it will have on there photo essays that embody the genre so that should help you as well.
You love them, both, and maybe people will not understand, but what do they understand?
— Lise/Deenie/Eli (A.V.P)
hey hello i think you should check out this book called the torn skirt by rebecca godfrey I haven't read it yet only the sampler on ibooks but It feels so much like Dare Me I think you would enjoy it well yea I hope i'm not bothering you bye have a nice day :)
oh i will absolutely! thank you so much! <3
what makes a dangerous girl?
A dangerous grrrl means specifically a teenager who has had to deal with the pressures, expectations and restrictions society puts on teenagers that are perceived as or identity as feminine and therefore are affected by this brand of misogyny. Which is why this doesn’t necessarily (meaning shouldn’t) always feature cis teen girls, because nb and trans girls and boys have had to deal w/ this too.
It’s these teens who have had to deal with it and are fucking tired of it. So they rebel in various ways, the ways differ from drinking, drugs, sex to reclaiming their own bodies, minds, identities, orientations and power/control. They manipulate adults and usually stick to those their own age because it’s them against the world. They exude their right to be their own person, to have their own story and be an individual.
There also are elements of class, race and lgbtqia issues that are involved in the theme, which is partly due to most of the media fitting in suburban or southern gothic.
A dangerous grrrl is unafraid to explore topics that are taboo or situations that may be intimidating. It’s a kind of recklessness, a kind of apathy towards who they’re “supposed” to be. They can play the game, but the way they play it is by breaking all the rules in secret.
This is a genre that is/should be diverse, as there are many stories about teenage grrrls, many of them dangerous in varying ways. And this is something teengirlnet is going to attempt to feature, improve on and embrace.
could you speak a little towards mirror imagery in dare me? (i noticed it a lot while i was reading, both with physical reflections as well as the 'two sides of the same coin' thing going on with beth and addy, at least in the early parts of the novel) just wondering if you noticed it too? ((also u mentioned an eli/deenie/lise graphic and i may just die that's gonna be so perfect))
you are in luck - i’ve already spoken about this in depth. beth and addy are foils, and regarding two sides of the same coin - i could see that as addy = head (all deep thought) and beth = tails (she’s all gut instinct). they are “one” person at the beginning, because that is how they want people to view them. that is how they are putting themselves out as. but slowly through the book, addy splits a part and beth’s side gets cold.
addy and beth could not be more different, what they have in comparison is what all teen girls (dangerous ones in particular) do. the need to have control, over body, soul, mind and circumstance. they just deal w/ this in very different ways. they want different things. think different ways. as a teenager, your relationship with your best friend is the most complex in the entire world. the most protected. the most important. it envies your relationship with everyone else. it is the top. and to add in beth’s feelings and their power already as the top two… it’s so dynamic and destructive. the question is, was coach the catalyst, or was the endgame always inevitable? coach was of course really just a metaphor, a symbol, an image in the story if we’re really getting down to it. but would addy have found this out on her own?
mirror/abyss analogy/comparisontwisted selflessness
yes the graphic will be mindblowing i am already screwing myself over by raising expectations.
do you think the quote "i inspire him to rise to my level" from gone girl could work for addy & beth as well?
yes i do. i think it applies to both as well. “rise to my level, beth,” addy says. “stop caring so much about love and killing, power is our true currency. it’s the only way we’ll thrive.”
and beth is begging addy to rise to her level. “love me. love me please. respond to me. make it real. i’m so tired of you ignoring it. be loud like me. show me how you really feel. i’m tired of guessing.” and they’re both saying it, addy’s is a whisper, haunting, and beth’s is a scream, deafening. and they drown each other out the entire book until finally beth hears
beth hears it
and she quiets. silence. and addy’s changes. “i’m the only one on top. there is no rising now. i have the power.”
you're right i can't imagine amma staying in prison. but by the end of it, wasn't camille being cared for by her childless boss and his wife? that ending gave me goose bumps tbh but it did make a lot of sense in a how-did-i-not-see-this-coming way. i can't imagine camille moving out of there either. will amma move in with them? kinda doubt it but what do you think?
i think w/ amma by her side “rehabilitated” camille would move out. but eileen and frank would try to stop her. they wouldn’t like the way amma acted. but camille would defend her because that’s her sister and they have shared experiences. amma would not move in - and she’d hate visiting them at parties because no matter how hard she’d try they would never believe her specifically frank. she would make camille leave immediately to take care of her, get her away from her new family because amma would be jealous. but she’d pretend she loved them for camille’s sake.
camille has a soft spot for amma because they have not only a bond but after marian, camille would hold a sister very dearly. they have loyalty braided between them.
what do you think amma grew up to be? im assuming she went to juvie or something but what do you imagine her future to be?
yess okay so this is something amy and i talked about in depth. let’s get into it.
so what happens to amma after juvie/psychiatric care in the opinion of amy and i:
we don’t believe amma went to jail, she’s young and pretty and she’s clever. she knows no one wants to believe she did it and even if the evidence is overwhelming, they’ll want to believe she is a result of a bad home life and therefore was not in her right mind. she’ll be put in psychiatric care and she’ll work the system, pay her dues, be the BEST patient they’ve ever seen. she’ll make penance, prove to them over and over again that she has learned and they’ll believe it, these professionals, because she’s SO good at it that she almost believes it herself – but she knows better. she does what she can to get out of there and get back to camille.
amma won’t have learned anything, she’s just get more clever and kill again. hide it better. she lost herself for a moment over camille and the girl she got caught killing. she understands her mistake, she won’t make it again.
amma would find camille again and become like allison and mona (pll) camille would have her back, because she understands. she never stopped. camille loves her. she’s kind. amma would take on some of her personality traits as a way to placate and more so, become her. amma could pretend softness easily, and sometimes, she’d forget she was pretending.
amma would get tattoos of camille’s words all over her in white ink and her own words as well. some are so pretty and feminine and some are so ugly. consume, devour, bite, teeth, and vanish. but in a different connotation. and it’d be in the same place. camille’s name on the small of her back. (i let them see i’m not anything, least of all what she is… she becomes the colour) adora’s name, marian’s name. camille would hate adora’s name being there. and amma would twist away.
she’d work someplace next to someplace vulgar. cafe next to a strip club, bar next to a cheap dentist, candy store next to a gun store. she would love irony. she’d have inside jokes with herself. something next to a butcher.
she’d touch broken glass and knives very gently where camille can’t see. read books about joan of arc burnt to death. she’s go into the dentist’s office and steal teeth. have a bloody tooth choker. camille would think it’s in bad taste, say it’s ghastly. but chuckle in private. amma promises it’s fake, camille forces herself to believe. like she did before. because she loves her and needs her, now more than ever. camille has that book like “dealing w/ a troubled teen”. amma throws it out but keeps some pages. because at least camille cares, really cares. and lord would camille be careful about who she hung out with. and she would reassure amma that they meant nothing and amma would be like “oh darling, that’s not me anymore” all the while secretly poisoning them slowly, putting bits of nair in their shampoo. amma still sneaks into camille’s bed sometimes just to know she’s there. and camille doesn’t know why her friends are avoiding her, or she does and ignores it. amma plants drugs, child porn, dead animals. anything to get them arrested or shamed. camille has suspicions but tries not to think. she’s willfully ignorant. nothing is as important as her sister.
amma says her favorite scar is the one she got with camille and camille aches hard. once. like the end of a sentence. and camille stays in touch with john keene. and amma questions “why him. he’s nothing.” but doesn’t interfere. she likes remembering his sister. she doesn’t like how camille’s handwriting flourishes in her letter to him and how camille won’t let her read them. she doesn’t like how john never was interested in her, never fucked her. she doesn’t like camille keeping anything from her, wants to always be in her head. she has natalie’s name written somewhere in secret. and ann’s. they’re hers, private.
john and camille are like ken and barbie to her. ugh her in high school. amma in college. amma trying to cut camille with her words once regarding john and camille. “you think you’re gonna be able to play happy families? look at you. look at you both. how is he going to forget your sister murdered his. too broken camille, the both of you.”
her in high school would be deadly. there’d be a suicide and nobody would ever be able to pin it on her. she’s the only one who gets camille really, isn’t she enough? isn’t she everything? she’d need camille to prove in small ways that she would give up everything for her. “i need you to take me to my lacrosse game.” “but i have an article to write” and she’d just look at her and camille would give in and amma would know she was hers. she’d test her. go missing for hours just to see if she looks. but amma would also respect her. and love her. they would have such nice evenings, often. amma curled up against camille as they do something simple, mundane, like reading or watching tv. they’d read the classics - gone with the wind. even though camille would hate it. and amma would hate little women. and love the part in gone with the wind where her daughter dies. camille would laugh and say she’s like amy. “well you probably like it when that snooty boy moves in next door and jo ignores amy for him, camille”
we got them domestic preaker sister dreams. their mother would come up easily sometimes, like a joke, and then hit hard. “mom fucked you up so hard” “at least i’m not marian” or “at least i was strong enough to make it out alive” and then just painful silence.
amma still gets uncomfortable when there’s pictures of marian around, flicks them over with her finger, tries to change the subject. she once shouts outright that she doesn’t want to talk about her. then scolds herself for slipping. it won’t happen again.
once again, without amy i couldn’t do any of this. they are the wind beneath my meta wings. send them love.
Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the slaughterhouse scene from Sharp objects?
Alright, so first of all, I love you for asking this question. Because one, this is one of my favorite scenes in the entire book and two, it speaks so much on amma’s character i can’t even.
the first thing i did when i saw this was go to amy and ask if again, she wanted to join me on some meta delight. we are both passionate about this scene so it was great fun. Now let’s get into it!
first of all, this scene is important because we think it’s the first time camille realized it was amma but because she loves her sister, she pushed it back. the repulsion she feels is so unreal, and trauma blocks things out. camille wants to blame it on her mother, because in a way it is adora’s fault (”everyone blames the mother” which is like “i blame my mother”). there’s a link to when she’s in the meat shed w/ the porn on the wall (which she probably doesn’t think about).
why does amma do it? because she fucking loves violence. she not only loves it, she’s turn on by it. amma watches this because it’s like porn to her. it was grotesque in a dirty way, a sexual way. it was her version of masturbation (the squirming) this is how she gets off. which deals w/ the whole serial killers love animal violence but amma isn’t going to get dirty in that way - she let’s the industry do it for her, let’s her mother do it. it’s how she fulfills that part of being a serial killer. amma watches. she gets off especially on that fact that her mother and by extension she (and camille) owns that factory and is a part of that violence occurring. amma’s own identity from her mother often gets blurred, she has trouble find their separating line sometimes. she is the one kid who had to endure adora alone, she’s her special girl and she loves that attention even if it is killing her slowly. she loves it so much she kills for it because pain is a kind of love. (and love is a kind of killing !!) that’s how amma views love. except in this case it’s literal. she is literally dying and she is literally killing. she’s dying for it and so others have to too.
back to the slaughterhouse - the symbolism of her watching a mother sow nurse piglets who aren’t hers - knowing it’s causing the mother pain and liking it. (the men delivering the piglets and being used to amma there)
there was a part of amma, imo, that felt like killing her mom. not as retribution but as a way to return the favor, a way to show her love. she killed the competition for her mother’s love, but it was also a way to get close. which is another reason why camille coming back threw her off - camille made her mother sick in a way she couldn’t
camma loved those girls for a moment the way her mother did/would - she played with them, joined them. caressed them. so she could show her love by killing them. and the markers of femininity apparent there - she associates violence w/ her mother with feminine things. love is pain and nail polish, doll houses and hair bands, missing teeth and ribbons. even in their death she found a way to femininize their bodies, these wild girls. let me tame u in ways my mother tried but failed. these wild girls she was a part of, she wanted it, the freedom. but she chose her mother. she always would and will because she loves her. camille had marian as a way to disenchant her from her mother - she was a wild girl pretending to be a cheerleader and amma is a wild cheerleader. adora creates wild things and adores cleaning them up and breaking them in. because she herself is a wild thing. (something she NEVER talks about) + adora and her mother (more pls)
adora and her relationship to camille - she slowly kills her children because they ruined her life. her mother loved her in that same way. she can force herself not to think things, to not consider them at all. she’s helping her children w/ the medication. she loves them, so she’s saving them. even tho camille is a bad girl for not letting her save her. adora uses this to be in control. it’s a novel based on control. for these women who are so feminine, who are the archetypes of southern hospitality, of course they rebel in extreme ways. amma controls adora through her own weakness, adora controls camille through shame and amma through nursing and camille loses control of everything but her own skin.
camille takes back control by abusing her own body, sexually and physically. she makes those choices, not her mother. that’s why her mom and amma wanted to carve their names there. to own camille. take her back and make her hers. they want to own things. to control them.
so why did camille in a way feel attracted to the animal violence/porn - was it seeing women through the male gaze so starkly for the first time? or was she weaned on violence too? there’s a rawness, a masculinity to the way these girls view sex. it’s very stark.
camille was afraid of amma, but felt a connection. here’s another young girl fascinated with the sexually grotesque, doing unladylike things and enjoying them. (like when richard finds the hotel room that smells like sex and camille revels in it) the act of touching herself - not meant for girls, taboo. it’s rebellion of gender roles. and it’s the same w/ the conversation with richard over him being a “feminist”. fuck u richard. camille has so much internalized shit, it’s a defense. she wants to own what happened to her. she’s in charge. her idea - not everyone is a victim - is her desperate attempt to not be a victim herself. she reacts to things in an unhealthy way just like amma but it’s her own version (praise be to god when she finally had good sex w/ john - favorite part of ours. beautiful moments. the scars being loved just as much - laid bare) camille found people and amma found camille. they accept the worse of each other, they understand. camille just reacts internally and amma externally. such beautiful foils. amma’s tantrums vs. camille’s drinking. (more rebellion)
back to the slaughterhouse -it’s a symbol/representation of the town itself (amma learned to work it, camille didn’t/tried)
it’s another symbol of the whole “women clean and bleed” look at the sow, a female and mother, at the slaughterhouse. the men laughing to distance themselves. it’s a show. this violence, people love it, are entranced. it’s a symbol of rape culture. studies done on sexual violence in rural communities - massive, the culture problem. the way they view/react/interact w/ children (the woods w/ the schoolhouse for sex, the rape culture with children).
BASICALLY, it’s an integral scene and one that speaks on the entire book.
ONCE AGAIN, thank amy for being so lovely and meta talking w/ me. they’re so lovely. go follow them. couldn’t have done this w/o them. they also write poetry on the meta we talk about so yess the amma in the aftermath one - outstanding. lena made a graphic on it that killed me.
do you think we were liars fits the there's something dangerous about the boredom of teenage girls? its a really amazing book, i'm not sure if i have seen it in one of your recs so if you already recced it once i'm sorry!
i haven’t read it yet, but it does fit the trope. i’ve heard a lot of people really love it. but yes, absolutely it fits.
thank you for sending this in :3
addy hanlon is bisexual !!
alrighty, hello. so, there’s really only three reasons why you would send me this message:
1. you just finished dare me and are just really ecstatic and want to share
2. you’re asking a question you expect me to answer
or
3. you have heard that i interpret addy’s orientation differently and think that by sending me a statement on anon that says differently i’ll suddenly agree?
if 1, i am so happy for you and i love your enthusiasm. representation is important and makes everyone feel good! if 2, i’m about to answer this. and if 3, please note that this is not the way to go about this. if you wanted to send me a message privately to discuss this, that probably would’ve been way cooler. i’m not going to change my mind on something i’ve analyzed for a while just because someone sent a one line statement on anonymous. i would hope that you’d respect my interpretation just as much as i respect everyone else’s interpretation. we all don’t have to agree. the only thing that is canon is that these girls are queer, it doesn’t specify where on the spectrum they fall and how they identify. therefore, it’s open to interpretation.
if you’re sending this for that reason, then you know that i believe that adelaide hanlon is aro/ace. it is an interpretation that i have thought and analyzed long and hard on. it is one that i believe has a lot of textual backing to it. so let’s get into that.
i believe that addy hanlon is not romantically inclined or sexually inclined, why do i believe this? because i believe that addy hanlon deals in power and control. i believe that addy hanlon mirrors other people’s desires. with beth it’s her love for addy, both sexual and romantic. with coach it’s her desire for youth, which is synonymous with sex and romance from the adult pov.
let me ask you? have you ever done something you didn’t necessarily feel like doing?
have you ever done something you didn’t necessarily feel like doing for the sake of someone else?
have you ever doing something you didn’t necessarily feel like doing to gain favor with someone else? or control over someone else?
all valid reasons for addy to partake in sexual or physical activities even if she isn’t inclined. being ace doesn’t automatically mean that you never engage in sex - first of all, there’s a potential that your orientation shifts or changes as it can be fluid, second of all, some ace people engage in sex because their partners want to, and third of all, it’s a spectrum. there’s many ways to identify as aromantic and asexual. no one person is the same because we all are different.
i can say that addy believes that women are more important commodities then men, that they have more backbone, that men are to be used and thrown away. and the reason why she was upset about the jordy situation and coach was maybe because she thought she read coach a certain way, and found something to use to gain favor, but she failed and read her wrong.
i can say that potentially the reason why addy engaged in physical relations with beth could possibly because she fell differently on the spectrum then, or was just figuring it out? i can also say that maybe the reason why she never talked about it was because it could be hard to confess to someone that you are more disinclined sexually and romantically, especially if that someone is in love with you. or maybe it’s because addy was playing beth the fucking entire time and she was in it for the long haul and she didn’t even know.
i can also say that there’s a possibility that i am reading more into megan’s words than she intended. maybe you are right, maybe in megan’s mind addy is bisexual. megan has said that she writes things and people find meanings in them she never thought. it’s a possibility. but as i said in the beginning, it’s my interpretation. with a unreliable narrator and a lot of subtext all of canon is up in the air, and also i’d like to say
even if addy hanlon is aro/ace it doesn’t make her any less representative of queerness.
“And it was after work and we were in his car. I don’t know why I did it, Lise. But I just had to.” Which was true. In his car, all the breathing and hands and power of it. Like her body had known something her head never would. Nothing would have stopped her. Not even knowing Sean was the boy who’d taken off Lise’s tights the week before. And guess who it is, Deenie? That’s what Lise had said at the lake, wriggling closer, her fingers over her mouth. Guess who the guy is. It’s Sean. Sean Lurie. Waving the milfoil under her chin, throwing her head back, telling her the thing Sean had done to her and how it made her feel. Hearing it made something inside Deenie twitch, her whole body wanting to squirm. Her face red and hot, like watching a movie with her dad and suddenly there’s a scene you don’t want to watch with your dad.
Under the surface, her ears hurt so bad she felt like someone had punched an iron rod in them. But then the pressure broke and it was incredible, her head rushing with the feeling. And while she was under, she knew it was time to tell Deenie, her best friend. About the boy, almost as handsome as Eli Nash himself, but without the faraway eyes. The boy who’d looked right at her, rolling her tights down over her legs. To whisper in Deenie’s ear the wonderful thing that was happening and how it felt. She wanted to share it with her. The only Lise she could picture anymore was the one convulsing on the classroom floor. The surprise in her eyes. It was like the surprise in Sean’s eyes. That instant he’d realized the truth about Deenie, knew her secret, or thought he did. Lise and Sean, their matching stuttered-open expressions. They weren’t the same thing, except maybe they were: You didn’t tell me. You should have told me. You didn’t tell me it was going to be like this. You should’ve told me. Deenie, why didn’t you tell me. Or maybe it was like the look in her own eyes, Sean pressed tight against her. A look she herself never got to see: I didn’t know it was this. If someone had told me it was this. If.