the sun rose slowly

✡️. F. NYC

[ollie-duck]

“We left rhetoric about Jews poisoning wells in the Middle Ages!”

Modern rhetoric:

[bickbickbarnes]

They really don’t see the irony.

Somehow, making fun of surnames that were imposed on Jewish people by European—- while claiming that they are not antisemitic, is totally logical for them.



[bdalak]

saw someone write a post that hitler (orchestrated the holocaust) would have loved ben gvir (an iraqi jewish man) (iraq) (where the farhud happened) (the pogrom that happened in part because of nazi propaganda and ideology) (hitler was a nazi).

someone in the replies was like "even hitler (guy who carried out the holocaust) (the holocaust) (genocide which the global jewish population has yet to recover from in nearly a century) wasn't as on the nose about his antisemitsm as ben gvir is about his racism (with the example they gave being the noose pin) (small metal pin in support of a law that has yet to kill a single palestinian) (a law that will be shot down by the high court anyway) (no such high court existed to protect jews from the holocaust in nazi germany)."

if i can't get reparations for seeing this inane antisemitic bullshit on my feed i think it should be legal for me to murder these people for one day a year, purge-style

[wolverinecore]

A reminder that Noah Wyle is a Zionist, has racial harassment allegations, and has admitted to mistreating his female co-stars in the past. If u genuinely still support him then ur just a spineless person

[bickbickbarnes]

Like this is the fourth post in the pit tag, and it’s full of bullshit like this.

1. He is a Zionist. He’s also pretty pro Palestine. He believes Israel should continue existing, and believes the Palestine, as a state, should continue existing. He’s never supported the right wing Israeli government. And he’s the only person, Jews are the only people, who you have this requirement of. Nobody’s asked Moafi her stance on the government of the countries She’s attached to. Nobody’s asked if the American actors think the USA should be destroyed. You wouldn’t even think about that. It’s only normal to do that to Jews.

2 He doesn’t have racist allegations, not in any actual sense. Every single actor who’s even slightly famous has bullshit anonymous allegations about literally everything. That’s intellectually dishonest as fuck. I heard you’re racist and antisemitic. There. You now have the same allegations.

3. Except that’s not what happened. He said that he was a stupid kid, and had a lot of stuff to work on. Which literally all men do. Every single man. The only difference is that he acknowledges it, and actually did some work. Which is what we WANT them to do. Not to pretend that they were perfect from birth. 

[wolverinecore]

Ahh yes a grown ass man was "just a kid" way to excuse his actions. He didnt apologize to the actress he harrassed the most. He also made a joke saying "r there any more women to yell at" on the set of the pitt.

Second this is his recent quote . Not only has he praised israeli hospitals recently, even though israel has bombed every standing hospital in gaza, has killed over 70k people and over 15k children, some of them babies in the hospitals, he has NOT acknowledged palestinian suffering at all.

Thirdly, aquating zionism with judaism is anti semitic, which is what hes essentially doing and trying to frame what im doing as that is weird af. I call out anyone that have hypocritical and bad political opinions, stop trying to twist this. Hes not publicly criticized the israeli government. In all of his recent interviews, hes not once acknowledged the storyline with the muslim nurse about some bombing.

Yall r genuinely so pathetic for celebrities its outstanding LOL

[bickbickbarnes]

1. ALL men have bias. All men. I’m not excusing his actions— I’m saying you have bo idea what his actions were. Just that he wasn’t perfect to his female coworkers by SELF ACKNOWLEDGING it. That is called GROWTH. None of his female coworkers have accused him of anything. This is, to the best of our knowledge, a guy who who looked at the sexism all men have and actually examined it with age.

2. What 😂😂 the quote doesn’t mention anything about Israeli hospitals. It talks about his distance from Judaism before the October 7th attacks, and how that has internal impact on him. My god, you people are deranged. You want us to apologize for a gigantic attack on Jewish people being impactful on Jewish people? Batshit insane take.

3. Don’t tell Jews what antisemitism is, especially when you fuck it up. I didn’t equate shit. But Zionism is INHERENTLY Jewish. It’s a Jewish concept made by Jews, about Jews, for Jews, that over 85 percent of Jews subscribe to.

He hasn’t publcially criticized ANY foriegn govt. he gets accused of Zionism because he doesn’t say Israel shouldn’t exist. That’s it. He’s never SUPPORTED the right wing govt. at all. His support for the existence of the country is mission, normal, and no issue. He’s publicly states he believes in a two state solution.

And you are a hypocrite. Again— when did the American actors face the same critique for….supporting the US existing? They don’t support the current govt, presumably. They support the country as much as Wyle does. When does Moafi get these questions? None of them do. Just the Jew.

[wolverinecore]

A reminder that Noah Wyle is a Zionist, has racial harassment allegations, and has admitted to mistreating his female co-stars in the past. If u genuinely still support him then ur just a spineless person

[bickbickbarnes]

Like this is the fourth post in the pit tag, and it’s full of bullshit like this.

1. He is a Zionist. He’s also pretty pro Palestine. He believes Israel should continue existing, and believes the Palestine, as a state, should continue existing. He’s never supported the right wing Israeli government. And he’s the only person, Jews are the only people, who you have this requirement of. Nobody’s asked Moafi her stance on the government of the countries She’s attached to. Nobody’s asked if the American actors think the USA should be destroyed. You wouldn’t even think about that. It’s only normal to do that to Jews.

2 He doesn’t have racist allegations, not in any actual sense. Every single actor who’s even slightly famous has bullshit anonymous allegations about literally everything. That’s intellectually dishonest as fuck. I heard you’re racist and antisemitic. There. You now have the same allegations.

3. Except that’s not what happened. He said that he was a stupid kid, and had a lot of stuff to work on. Which literally all men do. Every single man. The only difference is that he acknowledges it, and actually did some work. Which is what we WANT them to do. Not to pretend that they were perfect from birth. 

[bickbickbarnes]

You know what’s annoying?

I have seen a hundred HORRIBLE takes on how WOC are being treated badly in The Pitt because in 2 seasons, 2 WOC have left the show*.

But zero takes on how the rabid hatred of Robby/Noah Wyle (the very visibly Jewish character, whose Judaism is a plot point) could possibly be related to the insane spike of antisemitism (not to mention the demographic of fans of the show being particualry prone to it).

Like. The main character is getting too much airtime in in his own show? And you hate that? Everything he does is seen through the worst possible lens? All the analysis of him vs his coworkers points out he’s a white man— but forgets his very visibly marginalized identity? The only time the characters or actors ethnicity/religion is mentioned is when you want to criticize something you see as support for Israel? Hmmm. Fucking HMMM.

*(which would’ve been a decent point, except it’s one of the most diverse casts on a mainstream show right now. There are a ton of people of color, and a ton of women. And people were always going to leave the show. When the pool of women of color is already large, it’s just going to be statistically a thing. Not to mention that more women of color are being added to the show— and given more time. So it’s not even a criticism that makes sense.)

[meowzel-tov]

american "progressive" goys: UGH everything is JUST like the holocaust! everyone i dislike is also a nazi!

jews: yea, the nazis were horrible and the holocaust was an unimaginable tragedy

american "progressive" goys: ermmm palestinian children literally suffer worse shut the fuck up why the fuck are you talking about this this was 80 years ago. *vague neo nazi shit*

-

i! dont get it

[hilacopter]

i'm tired of bibi having become a meme for casual antisemites like epstein has and i'm tired of people taking that as me liking either of them so here's a somewhat unorganized list of things bibi is not and is so you can hate him like a decent person:

Things Benyamin Netanyahu Is Not:

someone who has the support of the majority of israel's population

an evil mastermind who controls america with trump bent to his will

dead

called benjamin, a christianized english-ified hebrew name

a master propagandist (ask yourself how you hate him so much in the first place)

a pedophile or sex offender (to my knowledge)

yaoi with trump (unfortunately)

he does not have a purple tint to his hair (fuck is my mom on about)

hated by you more than by the average israeli

Things Benyamin Netanyahu Is:

a war criminal

a right winger (wow)

someone who asskisses a very specific demographic of the israeli population, said demographic then give him barely enough votes to surpass the other parties because our voting system is flawed and scattered

an incompetent leader who sits on his ass and lets people worse and more extremist than him make the decisions

a criminal and a fraud who is only still trying to stay in power and pave a soft dictatorship in order to avoid the consequences of his actions (prison)

deliberately prolongs wars to do that

called benyamin/binyamin, a jewish hebrew name

a reverse yet actual propagandist who deliberately sabotages israel's international reputation only so he can promise the population protection from international threats

associated or a few degrees of separation away from pedophiles and sex offenders (to my knowledge)

a friend and ally to trump

married to the duolingo owl on my citra tomodachi life island. they have the ugliest daughter i've ever fucking seen.

hated by the average israeli more than by you

see how easy it is to hate people based on true information?

[vshamru]

[afrenomes]

most of these are correct (though i can’t speak for the tomadachi point lmao 😆). The only caveat is that Netanyahu does go by “Benjamin” in official English-language Israeli media/platforms, which was likely a choice made by him, so calling him “Benjamin” when speaking in English is not necessarily incorrect.

Examples:

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/netanyahu-b

Netanyahu says ‘finger on trigger’ to resume war any time; opposition accuses him of strategic debacle

PM insists Israel wasn't caught off-guard by truce, says Iran's enriched uranium will be removed 'by agreement or through resumed fighting'

You can call him whatever you want tho (asshole, crook, בן זונה are some good ones—whatever your heart desires ❤️). I just wanted to clarify a minor point.

[beesandwasps]

Also: no matter how much Israelis in general may hate him, every time he does something awful that makes anybody from outside the country wonder how this could possibly be done, public opinion polls in Israel show overwhelming support — like 90+ percent — for whatever it is. Israelis are overwhelmingly evil genocidal freaks; this post sounds a lot like an attempt to scapegoat Netanyahu for the incredibly evil shit that essentially all Israelis want.

[bickbickbarnes]

While we know this person is not even slightly trying to have a conversation in good faith, a note. If you see a poll taken in a country that shows 90 percent support for almost ANYTHING political: you are being lied to. Either by design of the poll. Or the context in which it’s being reported.

This is something stunningly obvious to me. But I suppose for a certain subset of insanely xenophobic freaks that maintain the “those people over THERE a special breed of EVIL humans” thought process, it might take some time to sink in.

[beesandwasps]

There may be some good Israelis hiding in basements and attics somewhere, but it’s a matter of self-selection: good people would leave Israel the minute it became possible, so mostly the people who are sticking around are not good people. They spend their entire time in a bubble where they all reassure each other that mass murder and theft are fine as long as the victims are not Jewish (and, when westerners aren’t looking, aren’t specifically Ashkenazi Jews — Israel is racist even among Jewish people and in many respects non-European Jews are second-class citizens in Israel). When the war crimes trials start, which they eventually will, the number of Israelis who will have to be tried will be astonishing.

[bickbickbarnes]

1. Where do you live. Quickly.

2. Again. Again. I know the hatred has rotted you, from the inside. But thinking that Israelis are somehow inherently different from any other national group is just STUPID. Also, keep Mizrahi Jews out of your mouth. You don’t know anything about us and you don’t give a fuck.

3. I can think of a dozen states that have committed FAR more war crimes than Israel has. But you know. Crickets.

[hilacopter]

i'm tired of bibi having become a meme for casual antisemites like epstein has and i'm tired of people taking that as me liking either of them so here's a somewhat unorganized list of things bibi is not and is so you can hate him like a decent person:

Things Benyamin Netanyahu Is Not:

someone who has the support of the majority of israel's population

an evil mastermind who controls america with trump bent to his will

dead

called benjamin, a christianized english-ified hebrew name

a master propagandist (ask yourself how you hate him so much in the first place)

a pedophile or sex offender (to my knowledge)

yaoi with trump (unfortunately)

he does not have a purple tint to his hair (fuck is my mom on about)

hated by you more than by the average israeli

Things Benyamin Netanyahu Is:

a war criminal

a right winger (wow)

someone who asskisses a very specific demographic of the israeli population, said demographic then give him barely enough votes to surpass the other parties because our voting system is flawed and scattered

an incompetent leader who sits on his ass and lets people worse and more extremist than him make the decisions

a criminal and a fraud who is only still trying to stay in power and pave a soft dictatorship in order to avoid the consequences of his actions (prison)

deliberately prolongs wars to do that

called benyamin/binyamin, a jewish hebrew name

a reverse yet actual propagandist who deliberately sabotages israel's international reputation only so he can promise the population protection from international threats

associated or a few degrees of separation away from pedophiles and sex offenders (to my knowledge)

a friend and ally to trump

married to the duolingo owl on my citra tomodachi life island. they have the ugliest daughter i've ever fucking seen.

hated by the average israeli more than by you

see how easy it is to hate people based on true information?

[vshamru]

[afrenomes]

most of these are correct (though i can’t speak for the tomadachi point lmao 😆). The only caveat is that Netanyahu does go by “Benjamin” in official English-language Israeli media/platforms, which was likely a choice made by him, so calling him “Benjamin” when speaking in English is not necessarily incorrect.

Examples:

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/netanyahu-b

Netanyahu says ‘finger on trigger’ to resume war any time; opposition accuses him of strategic debacle

PM insists Israel wasn't caught off-guard by truce, says Iran's enriched uranium will be removed 'by agreement or through resumed fighting'

You can call him whatever you want tho (asshole, crook, בן זונה are some good ones—whatever your heart desires ❤️). I just wanted to clarify a minor point.

[beesandwasps]

Also: no matter how much Israelis in general may hate him, every time he does something awful that makes anybody from outside the country wonder how this could possibly be done, public opinion polls in Israel show overwhelming support — like 90+ percent — for whatever it is. Israelis are overwhelmingly evil genocidal freaks; this post sounds a lot like an attempt to scapegoat Netanyahu for the incredibly evil shit that essentially all Israelis want.

[bickbickbarnes]

While we know this person is not even slightly trying to have a conversation in good faith, a note. If you see a poll taken in a country that shows 90 percent support for almost ANYTHING political: you are being lied to. Either by design of the poll. Or the context in which it’s being reported.

This is something stunningly obvious to me. But I suppose for a certain subset of insanely xenophobic freaks that maintain the “those people over THERE a special breed of EVIL humans” thought process, it might take some time to sink in.

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Yes. I did. Here’s a reminder. I answered you. Then I explained that there’s no “one answer”. That people have personal reasons to keep engaging, and those differ. That’s not “too personal”. That’s “individual”. Those are different things. And what point? You didn’t have a point. Other than seeing a pattern that wasn’t there- which we went over.

[cats281]

Again. You didn't give me a reason. Other than "individual" (sorry I said personal), which is fine. But then. Just stop responding.

Do you think you're the most unique person in the world? Do you think nobody else thinks like you? I asked YOU this question, and I've stated multiple times, just stop responding if you don't want to give me YOUR answer.

Before you say "what does my opinion have to do with this", do you think you're the only zionist like this. Other people share the same views you do, and, if you don't want to explain them to me, JUST STOP RESPONDING. IF THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, I'M NOT KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO YOUR PROPERTY. I'M ASKING OUT LOUD. WHETHER OR NOT YOU RESPOND IS YOUR OWN PREROGATIVE. JUST WALK AWAY FROM ME THEN. FFS.

[bickbickbarnes]

I showed you four screenshots of reasons. Did you not see them? What did you think the screenshots were of? In what way were those not reasons?

To go over them again. And to keep track I’ve gone over them three times now, and a fourth time literally showed you the pictures.

Reasons why I would engage with you— even though you’ve been antisemitic:

- I’m an optimist. I keep hoping there’s an off chance that if something is explained to a bigot, they’ll be reasonable. I am usually let down.

- other people. When you dismantle antisemitic talking points, in a public forum, other people see it. Some of those people pay attention to those answers. And for some of those people paying attention, it might start to change their minds-If they held the same bias or point of view. Or it could percolate in the back of their head and add up to eventually change their minds.



So. As not the most unique person in the world, as I’ve explained. I’ve given you my reasons multiple times, and explained that everyone has their own personal reasons for engaging. There is no pattern. Sinus they’re not the only people that engage with people they considered to be bigot. Nor are Zionist engaging in any particular amount. You’re just the one engaging with that specific group.

Cannot wait to see how you’ll fuck this one up. Genuinely having a good time. 

[cats281]

How am I supposed to meaningfully engage with you. Bruh. I WANT to keep going. But if you already think I'll "fuck this up", there's literally no point.

[bickbickbarnes]

Then stop engaging with me.

Though I’m a little surprised that you’re surprised. You’re looking for meaningful engagement after you ranted about how I didn’t give you reasons, after I literally showed you screenshots of me already giving you reasons? How can I put this. You’re getting what you give.

[cats281]

You didn't tell me to leave or ask for my own reasons though???

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m not sure how this applies to my last comment. 

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Yes. I did. Here’s a reminder. I answered you. Then I explained that there’s no “one answer”. That people have personal reasons to keep engaging, and those differ. That’s not “too personal”. That’s “individual”. Those are different things. And what point? You didn’t have a point. Other than seeing a pattern that wasn’t there- which we went over.

[cats281]

Again. You didn't give me a reason. Other than "individual" (sorry I said personal), which is fine. But then. Just stop responding.

Do you think you're the most unique person in the world? Do you think nobody else thinks like you? I asked YOU this question, and I've stated multiple times, just stop responding if you don't want to give me YOUR answer.

Before you say "what does my opinion have to do with this", do you think you're the only zionist like this. Other people share the same views you do, and, if you don't want to explain them to me, JUST STOP RESPONDING. IF THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, I'M NOT KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO YOUR PROPERTY. I'M ASKING OUT LOUD. WHETHER OR NOT YOU RESPOND IS YOUR OWN PREROGATIVE. JUST WALK AWAY FROM ME THEN. FFS.

[bickbickbarnes]

I showed you four screenshots of reasons. Did you not see them? What did you think the screenshots were of? In what way were those not reasons?

To go over them again. And to keep track I’ve gone over them three times now, and a fourth time literally showed you the pictures.

Reasons why I would engage with you— even though you’ve been antisemitic:

- I’m an optimist. I keep hoping there’s an off chance that if something is explained to a bigot, they’ll be reasonable. I am usually let down.

- other people. When you dismantle antisemitic talking points, in a public forum, other people see it. Some of those people pay attention to those answers. And for some of those people paying attention, it might start to change their minds-If they held the same bias or point of view. Or it could percolate in the back of their head and add up to eventually change their minds.



So. As not the most unique person in the world, as I’ve explained. I’ve given you my reasons multiple times, and explained that everyone has their own personal reasons for engaging. There is no pattern. Sinus they’re not the only people that engage with people they considered to be bigot. Nor are Zionist engaging in any particular amount. You’re just the one engaging with that specific group.

Cannot wait to see how you’ll fuck this one up. Genuinely having a good time. 

[cats281]

How am I supposed to meaningfully engage with you. Bruh. I WANT to keep going. But if you already think I'll "fuck this up", there's literally no point.

[bickbickbarnes]

Then stop engaging with me.

Though I’m a little surprised that you’re surprised. You’re looking for meaningful engagement after you ranted about how I didn’t give you reasons, after I literally showed you screenshots of me already giving you reasons? How can I put this. You’re getting what you give.

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Oh. And of course. The primary first answer

[cats281]

Okay. I see now. I'd love to ask follow up questions, but that's not allowed

[bickbickbarnes]

You asked like a dozen follow up questions that I followed up on.

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

That's not how patterns work. Whether or not it's caused by others, it's still a pattern.

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t think you understand what patterns of behaviors are. So far, you haven’t described a pattern as it applies to Zionists. You’ve just described asking Zionists questions, and some answering you even while believing you’re a bigot. As I’ve said many many times, that is not unique to Zionists.

[cats281]

This doesn't only happen when I ask zionists questions though?? Where did you get that impression???

[bickbickbarnes]

Look at that. You’ve negated your own idea of a pattern.

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Yes. I did. Here’s a reminder. I answered you. Then I explained that there’s no “one answer”. That people have personal reasons to keep engaging, and those differ. That’s not “too personal”. That’s “individual”. Those are different things. And what point? You didn’t have a point. Other than seeing a pattern that wasn’t there- which we went over.

[cats281]

Again. You didn't give me a reason. Other than "individual" (sorry I said personal), which is fine. But then. Just stop responding.

Do you think you're the most unique person in the world? Do you think nobody else thinks like you? I asked YOU this question, and I've stated multiple times, just stop responding if you don't want to give me YOUR answer.

Before you say "what does my opinion have to do with this", do you think you're the only zionist like this. Other people share the same views you do, and, if you don't want to explain them to me, JUST STOP RESPONDING. IF THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, I'M NOT KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO YOUR PROPERTY. I'M ASKING OUT LOUD. WHETHER OR NOT YOU RESPOND IS YOUR OWN PREROGATIVE. JUST WALK AWAY FROM ME THEN. FFS.

[bickbickbarnes]

I showed you four screenshots of reasons. Did you not see them? What did you think the screenshots were of? In what way were those not reasons?

To go over them again. And to keep track I’ve gone over them three times now, and a fourth time literally showed you the pictures.

Reasons why I would engage with you— even though you’ve been antisemitic:

- I’m an optimist. I keep hoping there’s an off chance that if something is explained to a bigot, they’ll be reasonable. I am usually let down.

- other people. When you dismantle antisemitic talking points, in a public forum, other people see it. Some of those people pay attention to those answers. And for some of those people paying attention, it might start to change their minds-If they held the same bias or point of view. Or it could percolate in the back of their head and add up to eventually change their minds.



So. As not the most unique person in the world, as I’ve explained. I’ve given you my reasons multiple times, and explained that everyone has their own personal reasons for engaging. There is no pattern. Sinus they’re not the only people that engage with people they considered to be bigot. Nor are Zionist engaging in any particular amount. You’re just the one engaging with that specific group.

Cannot wait to see how you’ll fuck this one up. Genuinely having a good time. 

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Oh. And of course. The primary first answer

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

That's not how patterns work. Whether or not it's caused by others, it's still a pattern.

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t think you understand what patterns of behaviors are. So far, you haven’t described a pattern as it applies to Zionists. You’ve just described asking Zionists questions, and some answering you even while believing you’re a bigot. As I’ve said many many times, that is not unique to Zionists.

[thatjewishteen]

i love it when people say "those european white jews changed their names to sound more indigenous when they moved to israel 🤬🤬🤬"

like babe those are hebrew names. i'm glad we agree that hebrew, the language of the jewish people, is the indigenous to the levant.

[cats281]

Judiasm has nothing to do with land. If you need to be on a certain piece of land to feel jewish.....uh oh....

[thatjewishteen]

quick what does the promised land mean, who was it promised to, and where is it?

[cats281]

Who promised it, and can you tell me without mentioning religion? Or do you believe in the One True Religion and the rest of us are all blasphemous and wrong?

If you were promised that land, why do you have to fight so hard for it? Doesn't that mean it isn't time yet?

[edithsweetithh]

wrong religion, dude. the mindset of "my religion is the One True Religion and everyone else is blesphemous and wrong" is a christian thing. jews don't care about non-jews not practicing our religion.

to answer your latter question, jews have a connection to the levant because we're indigenous to it; genetic tests and historical analysis have proved that again and again.

to respond to your first claim, judaism does revolve around israel. passover celebrates the story of being delivered to israel (although there's a lack of historical evidence for jews being enslaved in egypt, there's a shitton of historical evidence for an ancient jewish presence in the levant) and we say "next year in jerusalem" at the end of a seder. jews pray towards jerusalem, our agricultural holidays revolve around israel's climate, tisha b'av mourns the desctruction of the first and second temples in jerusalem, chanukah celebrates regaining our land from the syrian-greeks -- and if that isn't enough proof for you, there's a really big fucking wall and temple mount (that al-aqsa was built on top off) that are pretty easy to see.

hell, christians only consider jerusalem to be a holy city because jesus, a jew, (supposedly) preformed miracles there.

if you want to argue with jews about judaism, you could at least get your knowledge of beliefs in different religions figured out, lmao

[cats281]

Yet another person implying that you need some sort of education to not be antisemitic

[edithsweetithh]

you could make the same argument about any kind of bigotry. you need to be educated about disabled history to not be ableist, you need to be educated about black history to not be racist, the list goes on

[cats281]

You...actually don't need to be educated to not be racist or ableist...

How were you raised to treat people....

[edithsweetithh]

i was raised to treat people with kindness, thanks for asking, but "treat people with kindness" doesn't cover the unconscious ableist and racist biases in society. you often need to know history to specifically know why something is bigoted.

[cats281]

You have to learn biases to unlearn them. I'm sorry they were instilled into you, but your experiences are not universal

[edithsweetithh]

valid point, although i doubt there is anyone in the world who didn't have biases instilled into them. just like how you have antisemitic biases that you clearly have no intention of unlearning.

[unsolicited-opinions]

@thatjewishteen and @edithsweetithh give me life

[actualbookwyvern]

Hey, @cats281 it's your God given right to stay uneducated about things that matter, and as a Jew, I fully support anything God-given, but BEING RAISED IMPLIES BEING TAUGHT THINGS i.e. getting education, you know the word that means acquiring knowledge, skills, and character through formal, non-formal, and informal learning??? You WERE educated on kindness. Your education on kindness just didn't include not being anti-semitic, just like education in math might not include calculus, ya know?

[cats281]

please tell me what antisemitic values I have been taught

[actualbookwyvern]

Sure! ⬇️

[cats281]

Really wish this person elaborated, because I genuinely want to know what I said wrong. If a person does need the land to feel/be jewish, were the millions (possibly billions) of jewish people who have existed since the actual Israel was colonized (literal centuries ago...so not by the people currently living there) not "really" jewish? If it's about returning to a person's homeland, why is religion tied to it, and why are the laws of modern day Israel based on that religion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely want to know. I don't think religions should be regional (believe it or not, we don't think people in the middle east should be forced to be muslim), so why should I think Israel should worship one religion? If it's purely ethnicity, allowing indigenous people to return to their land is one thing, but "getting rid" of the people currently living there, resurrecting a country from TWENTY FIVE *CENTURIES* (at least) ago, and enacting laws based on religion is another.

[cats281]

They never elaborated.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because nobody believes you. This ain’t your first foray. You’ve been discussing shit in bad faith for a while. You literally said that you didn’t have any biases to unlearn. Which isn’t a fucking THING. You said that to Jews telling you that you were being weird.

Anyway. I’ll explain this once to you— and that’s that.

“Judaism has nothing to do with land”-

Yes. It does. Judaism is both ethnically connected to land— the Jewish people are indigenous to a specific piece of land. And religiously connected to that land. As is the case for most indigenous ethnoreligious groups. Jewish history is connected to land. Jews, prey towards the land. Jewish holidays and festivals are based on agriculture in that land. Our ideas for what the future looks like for Jewish people, are based on that land.

this idea that diaspora Jews are somehow less Jewish because they weren’t on the land makes no sense. We know. Most of us lived in exile. We were still connected to the land because JUDAISM is connected to the land.

Nobody said Israel should worship one religion. But Israel is a Jewish state. It is the sovereign state of Jewish people. Which again, is an ethnoreligious group. You cannot separate the purely religious aspects from the purely ethnic aspects. They are overlapping. So a lot of the structure of the state, is Jewish. Which is what happens with most countries. Israel, unlike many countries, does a pretty good job being inclusive to other religions and ethnicity. 

(And this is about to be dumbed down af but:)

And finally, Israel did not displace people for fun. It did not displace people in its founding. It did not “get rid” of people. Israel was formed along, mostly existing population groups. Jews were asking for a state, sovereignty. Just like Arabs were asking for a state, sovereignty. One state was out of the question for a couple of reasons, chief among them was that Arabs refused to share any political power with Jewish people. So that was no go. Israel agreed to accept an Arab Muslim population, and agreed to coexistence with both Jordan and Palestine. I’m not sure what else you want from them. 

So. What was antisemitic? Either purposefully misrepresenting Jewish connection to the land, Jewish views on…Jewish people, and Jewish history in Israel. Or doing it out of ignorance BUT still continuously talking over Jewish people.

[cats281]

"Jews prey towards the land" your ethnicity makes you "prey" upon something???

"You cannot separate the purely ethnic aspects from the purely religious aspects" umm??? So ethnicity is tied to religion?

[cats281]

If ethnicity is tied to religion, why is it okay to displace arab people who are just following their religion? Oh, sorry, religion is directly tied to ethnicity.

Oh, wait. But not all jewish people follow the jewish religion? And not everybody who follows the jewish religion was Israeli ancestry?

There are three options here. You knew this wouldn't change my mind and you said this knowing that, you said this with the intention of changing my mind (implying that I'm antisemitic isn't enough. If I was antisemitic, I'd agree with you. I'd WANT the jewish people in my community to move) knowing that you couldn't, or you said this to signal your own virtues.

[bickbickbarnes]

What does the first question even mean? It’s not OK to displace anyone, for any non-defensive reasons. Israel did not displace arab people or Muslim people. They were displaced because of a war Arab leadership started. What does this have to do with religion being tied ethnicity for ethnoreligious groups? 

Judaism is an ethnoreligion. I don’t understand why this is a hard concept. Most people, as in the vast majority of Jewish people, are born Jewish. Not all of them are religious. Many of them still celebrate Jewish holidays, for example. Which is part of what I mean by ethnicity and religion are intertwined for ethnoreligious groups. some of these holidays weren’t completely faith based in the first place, they were harvest holidays, or more civil. Land based. Kind of how July 4 is not a religious holiday for Americans.  and Judaism, isn’t Christianity. You do not need to have a specific belief system to even be “religiously” Jewish. And no— not all Jews are born Jewish. A small amount are converts. I assume that’s what you means by “Israeli ancestry”. And?

Your options are also odd.

1. I strongly suspected this wouldn’t change your mind, but again. I hold out Hope for people.

2. I didn’t just imply you were antisemetic, I said you were antisemitic and pointed out the antisemitic things you said. Per your request.  also antisemitism isn’t a one size fits all. Even the KKK manages to want the Jews out of America, but simultaneously hates Israel.

3. What virtues? You asked people to elaborate. And then you were snarky about nobody elaborating. So I elaborated. As it turns out it’s secret option number four. I literally did exactly what you asked people to do. 

[cats281]

Before I reply to your points, if you genuinely think I'm antisemitic, what makes you believe an antisemite would even read all of these, other than to argue? Am I being intentionally antisemitic, or am I misinformed? Is this a bias I learned, or something I'm choosing? If you think I'm misinformed, you wouldn't speak with hostility. If you believe I'm genuinely antisemitic, what's the point of typing all this out? If this is bigotry, bigotry doesn't go away with paragraphs, especially ones without sources. Sure you can send sources after this, but, again, if I'm truly antisemitic, why would I care? Won't I just take them and put my own narrative over them?

[bickbickbarnes]

I think this goes back to you not understanding what biases are. Antisemitism is not again, one size fits all. It’s a spectrum. Just like almost everything is. People hold subconscious biases that are antisemitic. Or people are just Nazis. Spectrum. You fall somewhere in the middle. You seem to be being intentionally antisemitic a few times, and other times you seem to just be spouting things you don’t understand, and refusing to listen. You spouted biases that you have ingrained and don’t realize, and then purposefully talk over people. It’s a combination of both

If you were both polite, misinformed, and willing to listen, I would be nicer. But you are misinformed, rude, and argumentative. Though again, I can be much much meaner. This is me being pretty neutral.

And I’ll remind you, going through your points isn’t just FOR YOU. It’s a public forum. The hope is that OTHER people see how ridiculous some antisemitism is.

(Also, what the hell did those screenshots have to do with this comment? One was me pointing out that I don’t think you’re doing this in good faith. Which is why people aren’t elaborating even more for you. Which was upheld by you taking a typo that a normal person would’ve realized is a typo, and run with it as a point.) 

[cats281]

If i'm talking over people and being rude, why respond? You say it's for other people to see, but, since this a bias that's being taught to me, wouldn't other people have those, and ignore the person on "their side" making a fool of themselves? And if this is for people on the other side of that conversation, why would they need to see this, if they already "know" it's ridiculous? (the screenshot was only because you responded multiple times. I'm just pointing that out.)

[bickbickbarnes]

….do you want me to stop responding? Because you seemed upset nobody elaborated. Now you seem upset that someone is elaborating.

And AGAIN. People vary. Some people see stupid points being disproven— and get on a trajectory to reject those points. Some people do not. That has nothing to do with those biases existing in the first place.

And I responded to your NEW posts at me. You responded to ONE post- the same post— multiple times in row. Do you understand the difference there?

[cats281]

I'm not upset, I'm just asking questions.

[bickbickbarnes]

You’re asking questions about why I’m answering your questions. Instead of the actual answers. It’s odd. 

[cats281]

But you said I'm talking over voices, so I stopped. Now, I'm just asking questions. I'm not saying anything about anyone. I'm literally just asking.

[bickbickbarnes]

Again, I found it odd that you were asking questions about WHY I’m ANSWERING you. Instead of, you know, the ACTUAL ANSWERS.

As side note, which I’m sure will spawn 15 very silly questions, I genuinely can’t tell if this is trolling or just. You know. Someone who isn’t too bright. Such an odd grey area.

[cats281]

What answers do you want from me though? Am I *supposed* to double down? I'm trying so hard to tell you I'm listening to you. What else do i do here to gain more information?

[bickbickbarnes]

I don’t want any answers? I’m not asking any questions. You seem confused.

[cats281]

I'm asking how I'm reasonably meant to respond.

[bickbickbarnes]

“Thanks for the answers, have a nice night” or “ok, thank you” or “thank you— i have this question about the actual topic____”.

Any of those work.

[cats281]

I'm sorry, but this question is part of the topic. It's a genuine question about zionism and your beliefs. You're not the only zionist with this attitude. I just want to know the reason behind it. Was gonna ask another question but nevermind I guess

[bickbickbarnes]

Asking me questions about why I’m responding to you is not questions about Zionism. Especially when I’ve already answered that question twice. 

[cats281]

This isn't about you. Sorry. Many OTHER zionists express this. You're just the only one I felt comfortable asking, but I was wrong to do so.

[bickbickbarnes]

WHAT isn’t about me. You asked me WHY I was answering your questions even though you expressed antisemitic biases. And kept asking why I was trying to answer. That is LITERALLY a PURELY personal question. It has nothing to do with Zionism.

[cats281]

But you're far from the only one. How am I supposed to ignore that pattern? And if it has nothing to do with zionism, why can't you just say that? You aren't the only person like this. You just aren't. But, again, you're the only one I felt comfortable asking, and that was wrong :/

[bickbickbarnes]

I’m far from the only person that answers questions to people they think are unpleasant in various ways? Yes. And the people who do that all have personal reasons for doing that. And the people who don’t do that, have personal reasons for not doing that.

All of those reasons vary. And I’ve already said it has nothing to do with Zionism, but genuinely, I didn’t think that had to be said. They are already unrelated things.

I am now informing you that nothing in this strain of conversation has anything to do with capitalism. Or woodworking. Or rose planting. All things which I’m pretty sure don’t need to be pointed out. But I might be wrong, apparently. 

[cats281]

This isn't about being "unpleasant", it's about antisemitism. I'm asking specifically about engaging with people you consider to be bigots.

[bickbickbarnes]

And I’m telling you that’s not limited to antisemitism. Though I did specifically answer this question already. More than once. Now I’m explaining how water is wet, again. 

[cats281]

I never said it was specific to antisemitism. I never said ALL zionists do this. I'm just asking a question about a pattern I've noticed.

[bickbickbarnes]

You haven’t noticed a pattern.

[cats281]

Sorry I said "TOO personal", I'm wrong for that, but how can you tell me what I have and haven't noticed? Even if it's not how zionists in general act, the zionists around me do. How can you deny that without even knowing them?

If you don't want to answer that specific question, don't answer. If you don't respond, I'll walk away.

[bickbickbarnes]

Because it’s not a pattern. It’s not unique to anyone. People answer questions. People answer questions from people they find to be bigots, or unpleasant in various ways. For many reasons. This happens with every single group of people.

You are asking questions. You’re asking Zionists. You are only noticing when you get answers— because you wouldn’t see the people NOT replying to you. That’s not a pattern. That’s just you asking a group of people questions, and watching some people answer. That’s it. 

[cats281]

I don't know how else to say this. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT "ANSWERING QUESTIONS", I'M ASKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU VIEW AS BIGOTS. Also, not all zionists engage with me with the assumption that I'm a bigot. That's the difference. I'M TALKING ABOUT ENGAGING WITH PEOPLE YOU BELIEVE ARE BIGOTS. SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH THEM!! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, OR CAN'T ANSWER, THAN DON'T!! JUST LEAVE!! I'M ONLY POINTING OUT THAT ZIONISTS HAVE DONE THAT A LOT TO ME!! YOU CAN'T DENY THAT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME!!!

[bickbickbarnes]

😂😂😂

I’m not even surprised anymore lmao. I’ve already said this three times, by my count. I am answering questions. That is the same thing as engaging with you. Answering questions, is a form of engagement. And I specified, answering them from bigots.

I’m also going to point out, for the fifth time, that I gave you an answer to that question, about 15 replies back. More than once.

And I’m going to reiterate, for the second time (I’m just gonna start keeping count about how many times I answer some of these questions) that this isn’t a pattern. You haven’t seen a pattern

You are choosing to engage with Zionists, consistently. And some are choosing to engage back with you. We’ve gone over that. Some are. Some aren’t. You are only noticing the ones that are. If I go to a neighborhood and knock on 40 doors, and 10 doors open— I would not be able to say that “hey. There is a pattern in X neighborhood of people opening doors”. Because 1. I’m literally going to that neighborhood and knocking. 2. I’m only seeing the people that answer. And 3. Other neighborhoods would be THE SAME. So This is not unique to Zionists. Again, any group of people engage (again answering questions is engagement), with people they don’t like. Including bigots. For many reasons. 

[cats281]

I'm asking why, and, again, if you don't want to answer, just stop responding. I didn't say ALL zionists act like this, nor am I saying anything negative about it. I'm just asking why. JUST STOP RESPONDING IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY IT

[bickbickbarnes]

I have, in fact, answered that several times. About 15 replies ago.

And I didn’t say you said all Zionists. I said you’re wrong about it being a pattern. And explained why.

[cats281]

You literally didn't though, past "personal", and, if that's the case, why are you still responding??? If it's personal, just stop and I'll leave.

You're proving my point by continuing this, but not answering my specific question. And. AGAIN. I'll drop it if you disengage, I'm not forcing you to answer, but what do you think this will do?

[bickbickbarnes]

Yes. I did. Here’s a reminder. I answered you. Then I explained that there’s no “one answer”. That people have personal reasons to keep engaging, and those differ. That’s not “too personal”. That’s “individual”. Those are different things. And what point? You didn’t have a point. Other than seeing a pattern that wasn’t there- which we went over.