"prison abolition" is a hilarious position, because proponents respond to obvious, vital questions like "how will you manage serial murderers and rapists?" with "d-don't worry about it, things will be different, and because they'll be different, they'll be BETTER!"
but there's a better hypothetical: ask what they would want to happen if they were a victim of a hate crime. should the perpetrator be merely rehabilitated? locked away for an arbitrary amount of time? executed on the spot?
obviously, when people are unwilling or unable to consider even first-order consequences of a policy, expecting them to comprehend a hypothetical is a tall order. but it at least makes them look even dumber ;)
"I've done zero reading by serious proponents of this position and have based my understanding entirely on internet shitposts, therefor the position itself is nonsensical"
https://transformharm.org/ab_resource/what-about-the-rapists-and-murderers/
Imprisoning people isn’t the only way to reduce harm and violence, argue prison abolitionists. They offer alternative solutions.
A guide created to assist those who wish to identify resources on mass incarceration and prison abolition. This guide highlights selected Ne
Let’s unpack prison abolition and how the U.S. came to incarcerate 2 million people.
Read a fucking book.
Check out Prison Abolition for Realists - <p><b>A lucid guide to the radical politics of prison abolitionists</b> <p/>There is growing recog
A Handbook For Abolitionists, Online book, Originally published 1976
Also?
"what they would want to happen if they were a victim of a hate crime. should the perpetrator be merely rehabilitated?"
Yes.
That isn't a hard question.
Hello.
I am a rape and murder attempt survivor. I am a hate crime survivor.
I am also a prison abolitionist, because I have this crazy, stupid idea that they are human rights, not good person rights & that the golden thread of justice is Innocent Until Proven Guilty Beyond All Doubt. I would rather 10 guilty people go free than even 1 innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
I would prefer the man who raped me, the people who abused me, the man who tried to kill me, the people who assaulted and harrassed me for hateful reasons still retain their human rights, because they are still human beings. I don't want to go anywhere near them, and I would prefer that they see social consequences for their actions--because that's the thing. Prison abolition doesn't mean victims and their families don't get a say, doesn't mean I don't want consequences to be visited on them. To put it in a pithy, memey way:
This is a silly way of pointing out the difference between social consequences and legal ones, but there is a difference nonetheless. Do I have the emotion of anger at the people who have been cruel and sometimes left me with permanent harm? Yeah I'm pretty angry at them. I'm mean to them when they come up in conversation, I insult them a lot and I would insult them to their faces if I ever saw them again, and mock them openly and my friends would too, and if we lived in the same community anymore I would warn people about them and try my best to make sure they were shunned and avoided so others would be safer. But there's a vast chasm of difference between what I think I should be allowed to feel and think and say in social situations and what I think the State should be allowed to do to them.
I believe in Restorative Justice, because it prioritises repairing the harm done to the community and not punishing the sinful guilty. While you can't therapy someone into different morals, you'd be surprised how many people benefit from education and having their needs actually met. You know what I want from the man who tried to murder me? I want my cats and my stuff. You want to know what I want from the people who hate crimed me? I want them to be told what they did was a hate crime and that they owe me reparations.
See, us prison abolitionists want prison replaced with things like UBI, free food for all, universal healthcare, repealing harmful laws like those for loitering and sleeping in public, mental health crisis teams, conflict de-escalation + basic therapy skills and other life skills training being compulsory in public education, harm reduction centers, decriminalisation of sex work and drug use, free daycare, Montessori education, and other things that make sure people have what they need to thrive and don't have to live in a state of desperation and fear. And this is proven to cut down on ALL crime.
We also think slavery is wrong, no matter what you have done. Slavery is wrong. I cannot believe you are sitting there arguing that slavery is okay if you are deemed a bad enough person (because that's what prison IS). That's a very cruel point of view and I am tired of not calling the prison system what it is: slavery. It's slavery. Let's stop beating around the bush. It's slavery. "Slavery should be okay if someone is convicted of x crime" No. Slavery is evil and wrong PERIOD.
Further Reading:
@thelawfulchaotic is a public defender and has many good explainers on how the justice system works and how it is designed to further traumatize victims of crimes by shutting them out of the process of justice, as well as the way it's designed to dehumanise and enslave anyone convicted of a crime, and how easy it is to convict someone of a crime even when there is no evidence. If you have questions, her askbox is open and she is a very good educator who works with the sort of people you're talking about every day.
Would you like to ask your very pointed questions to someone who has answers to them? Come at me
It's also worth pointing out that prison abolition is not trying to improve on a functioning system that already effectively manages rape. Because at least in the US where I live, the current incarceration justice system does absolutely fuck all to handle rape. The current rate of incarceration for rape in the US is <2.5%. And that's for any amount of prison time no matter how short, and doesn't include commuted sentences (very common for rape).
The rate of police intervening in rapes in progress is so low we can't even collect statistically meaningful data on it.
And while it's difficult to measure, repeat offenses for rapists before getting caught are incredibly common, but recidivism is very rare once they're caught if they face serious consequences of any form (not just prison). Meanwhile prison itself is a goddamn factory for rape. Guards frequently rape their captives and prisoners who commit rape have an incredibly enabling environment. And while prison rapes are poorly measured, what data we have shiws they almost certainly account for a massively disproportionate fraction of rape overall.
It's pretty much impossible to argue from the evidence that imprisonment reduces the incidence of rape, and in fact it likely *increases* how many rapes occur.
And you better believe the same trends apply to hate crimes. Fucking hells, prison is a hot bed for hate crime. And all this is without even touching on shit like police rape of queer people in jail.
We aren't trying to improve on a working system, we're trying to stop something that's *actively making things worse*. It would also be nice to improve things. But with regards to rape and hate crimes in particular, or current system is not some neutral/positive baseline we need to extensively justify improving on. It's literally worse than doing nothing.
