I feel like Achilles and Patroclus chew on each other recreationally, or out of stress of boredom
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I feel like Achilles and Patroclus chew on each other recreationally, or out of stress of boredom
Ok I actually do need a hive mind for something.
The Nolan Odysseyâs soundtrack has bells in its Circe track, you know the one where men are turned into pigs. The thing is, I have seen bells rolling for people being turned into pigs before, but for a video game, more specifically Paper Mario: the Thousand Year Door. There is a level in a place called Twilight Town and whenever the bell tolls at Creepy Steeple, a townie turns into a pig.
Is this a larger thing? Bells meaning transformation, specifically into pigs? Maybe itâs a coincidence, but bells donât really feature elsewhere on the soundtrack. Google is not much help. I would not put it past a 40ish composer to put a (pretty good!) idea from a video game in a soundtrack, but Ludwig Goransson thanked his parents for not letting him play videos games as a child in an Oscar acceptance speech. If itâs cultural osmosis, where did it come from?
Btw if you are craving a very Mycenaean adaptation of myth, I highly recommend Mary Renaultâs The King Must Die. Itâs a meticulously-researched ârealisticâ Theseus retelling (some of the Frazerian elements are quite out of date) and very obviously a major inspiration for the Hunger Games in retrospect. Her other books are good too!
Moved into a place with a minor bed bug infestation and itâs just the perfect bad-but-wonât-violate-terms-of-service curse to wish on someone. Outside of the bites harmless. Phantom itching. Everything is in a plastic bag and you donât know where anything is. You jump at the squiggles at the edge of my vision. I saw a baby one on my ceiling today and I know itâs normal for eggs to hatch after chemical treatment and the thing was about to die because it was walking over POISON but I wanted to scream because I havenât seen any in days. Steaming socks before I wear them. My mattress will need a plastic liner for the next year and I will need to check it regularly to make sure they arenât chewing through it. Everything in the home is suspect. They can get into books. It wonât kill me but I want to die.
Finding new things all the time
Vague HC that Achilles while better looking than Patroclus by an objective measureâalthough they are both blazingly hot mind youâhe also comes off as aloof if not slightly offputting to strangers, so Patroclus in some circumstances pulls better.
Embassy in the camp of Achilles.
Pat and often Achilles are usually pretty naked in these, even in antiquity. Maybe because the next time either of them puts something on it gets Patroclus killed?
Patroclus and Achilles were cousins, not lovers!
That didnât stop anyone from anything until like 1950. This is such an inane argument
every time someone refers to penelope's suitors as having been hanging around for 10-20 years i laugh. in the odyssey they are explicitly in their 4th year camped out at the palace, so they waited until odysseus had been well and truly MIA to come a-courtin'. they did not come the moment odysseus left for troy; for one thing they would not have been old enough. eurymachus says that odysseus used to bounce him on his knee. because he was a toddler
The way I was just thinking about how many of the suitors were likely the sons of the crew Odysseus got killed. Two generations wiped out because of one man
"Menoetius was a good dad and Patroclus was not abandoned or neglected by him, and if you think otherwise you're tsoa-pilled" is such a batshit wild take lmao.
Like, sure he does show up in the Iliad, and yes he seems to be concerned for his son! He tells him to look after Achilles and to give him sound counsel, so that they may both profit from his glory. This could be interpreted in a number of different ways: that yes, he still cares about his son and didn't wash his hands off him, but at the same time that scene always came across to me like Menoetius basically reminding Patroclus not to dishonour himself and his family further, enforcing on him the fact that even though Patroclus is older, Achilles will always be a better and nobler man than he, and instructing him on how to reap as much glory as he can through Achilles despite his own disgraced standing.
Sorry if that doesnât strike me as a particularly loving and tender father-son moment lol.
I do still believe that Menoetius didn't willingly give him up. Despite what Patroclus did, he was still a prince, was still his heir, and of course Menoetius as the king of Opus had a vested interest in his one offspring that was next in line for the throne. Undoubtedly Amphidamas, whose son Patroclus killed, was someone powerful and Patroclus couldn't be left unpunished for his crime, and Menoetius had been obligated by law to send his son into exile.
Yes it royally sucked that Patroclus was stripped of his title and his right to the throne! But consider this: a child who killed another child has ALWAYS been bad news, no matter the time period. A child that kills another child accidentally, "in a fit of rage" over a game of dice, was never acceptable, never normal. We don't know enough about Patroclus' upbringing or his relationship with Menoetius, but I donât think it would far fetched to assume that Patroclus struggled with extreme childhood aggression, which could be traced back to Menoetius' treatment of him or some other kind of trauma.
TL;DR: Patroclus' bad relationship with Menoetius is NOT an invention of TSOA, it doesn't take away from his character in any way, and there is as much evidence to support that Patroclus might have had a problematic upbringing and that Menoetius was a shitty dad as there is to the contrary.
I donât think we can possibly glean too much about their relationship from the Iliad, but I think there are a few modern assumptions that float around we need to nix. I am speaking pretty broadly using historical examples across centuries because a lot of this is just not stuff we are going to know about Bronze Age Greeks, but a lot of it is likely true to them.
A big thing to know about Ancient Greeks is that primogeniture, rule and/or property passing automatically from father to son was not a thing and would not be for another few millennia. This keeps clearly incompetent people from inheriting the throne, but there was also generally more tension and violence surrounding a kingâs death, and more parties jockeying for influence in the lead up tot it. Patroclus was not necessarily Meneotiusâs heir or next in line to to anything! We donât even know if he was the oldest, but the father of the boy he killed could be a rival or could ally himself with rival and put Actorâs whole clan in danger. Furthermore, there were definitely times where there were just too many men about, and societal safety valves to get rid of them. War was good, but you also see cases like Menelaus marrying Helen and ruling Sparta, her birth place and not his (incidentally Patroclus, someone who learned at one point or the other that he would not be king, was also among her suitors). Exile pops up a lot too, and itâs easy enough to believe that a violent society would have quite a few of them floating around. Patroclus could have been one of several people who might rule Opus after his father died and violence and threat of violence was just in the air, and Patroclusâs actions certainly made it worse.
Itâs also just not historically weird to send your child away, especially for the rich and powerful. Spartans gave their sons to the state at seven, and that is the age European knights started to train. Many European nobles would send their children to some court or another and maybe wealthy family members for refinement or to get them in proximity to the more powerful. Younger or lesser sons were often married off, shunted into business, or (later) sent to the church. We still send kids to boarding school. I donât think it was easy to exile Patrolcus, but sending a kid with a target on his back to stay with an old friend you are distantly related to was an extremely normal thing to do. No one would judge him for it. And apparently Patroclus and Menoetius still have regular contact after, so itâs even less extreme to us than it might seem at first glance.
As for childhood violenceâboys in these types of environments were often encouraged to be violent. Shoving and fighting were normal, and itâs biased but by Patroclusâs own account it was also a mistake, a hit that landed in the wrong spot or led to his victim falling in exactly the wrong way. Maybe that is what happened, maybe it wasnât. Yet I have to think these kinds of accidents happened a lot, especially when you consider that a minor cut we would wipe down with hydrogen peroxide might get infected and kill someone. Enough exiles certainly pop up in mythology.
Finally, I donât think anyone modern would call what we see of the relationship between father and son as particularly tender (except when Achilles wonders if Patroclus is weeping because his father died), but they live in an honor-bound society where the future was uncertain for even the well-born and there was violence galore. That conversation Menoetius always seemed like a warning to me, a father cautioning his son that he should not make himself an enemy of the people housing him by reacting inappropriately to his own loss of status. Itâs his best chance at a good life at that point, one where Patroclus would have been most vulnerable.
Iâm not even necessarily disagreeing with prev, but while the tenderness we expect between parents and children certainly existed in some circumstances, sometimes it didnât, and I think when you consider the type of world their children are being prepared for, some hardassness is to be expected. And I do think there is room for Menoetious to be a bad parent, but nothing in the Iliad stands out to me as abnormal or particularly bad in a pre-modern world with nobles and royalty.
I love thinking about Achilles and Patroclus being teenage boys at the start of the war and all that entails. They sleep a lot and eat even more. Achilles has a growth spurt or two in him. At their camp there is a smell. They keep trying to grow beards and the results are risible. They are disgusting, living in a Bronze Age-frat house.
"Aren't you overstating Patroclus's importance in the Iliad? He was just plot device for Achilles."
No, I'm not, and no, he was not. If you read closely you'll realize Patroclus didn't actually ask Achilles to rejoin the war. He supplicated with Achilles to lend him his armor so Patroclus could impersonate him on the battlefield.
I want you to look me in the eyes and tell me you believe Achilles would have agreed to this had literally anyone else asked him.
Read the Iliad and tell me to my face Achilles would have given this honor or trusted literally anyone else to do this.
Patroclus is central to the plot because he was the only warrior who had enough personal strength of character AND an exclusive bond to Achilles to stand in for him, fail at the task, and still contribute to both the tragedy and Achilles's character growth. The story isn't set up for anyone else to matter enough, in physical strength and in social standing vis-Ă -vis the hero, to accomplish both. Patroclus's importance can hardly be overstated.
Btw Patroclus is one of the two people Homer speaks to in the second person in the Iliad. The other is Menelaus,
And heâs such an interesting character. His presence is strongest in the shape of his absence. We learn a lot of things about him on only after he dies, and he and Achilles do not exchange a single word until Patroclus begs to go into the field, with Patroclus hovering sorta out of frame while cooking and serving for the embassy. Meanwhile, in a short poem that compresses the emotional and thematic course of the Trojan war into just a few weeks, he is also a stand-in for Achilles, literally in his armor, but also to the audience who has been hearing how good Achilles is at fighting and finally, after 15 books, gets a taste of what it means to have him on the battlefield, and then later he gets a grand funeral that would render any depiction of Achillesâs redundant. And yet because itâs the only grand funeral he is a stand-in for all the heroic Achaean war dead, those who died outside the narrow limits of the Iliadâs narrative. And those bodies, mostly of other young men in Patroclusâs generation, are about to start piling up and Homerâs original audience knew it.
And on top of that he is a good man. To modern audiences, really only he and Hector come off as sympathetic (with both being problematic sometimes), and of course they both end up dead. And with Patroclus, again, we learn a lot about him after he is gone, getting attached after it is already too late, which really brings home how wasteful all this death is.
Tired of people pretending Achilles hates Neoptolemus
Tbh I donât think Achilles knew him. His little fantasy of Patrolcus taking Pyrrhus to Phthia from Skyros after his death seems a little half-assed and pretty indicative of the fact that Neoptolemus has not been folded into Achillesâs life or world at that point. Neoptolemus goes on to rule Epirus and does not seem to be associated with Phthia at all after Troy.
Thereâs nothing particularly weird or neglectful about that and I do think Achilles wanted what was best for his son, and also it would not have been his job to be raising him like we would conceive of it, but he hasnât gone out of his way for him either.
I've never enjoyed portrayals of "woe is me I was abandoned and neglected by my own parents and cast away I'm so useless" Patroclus.
I think there's enough in the Iliad to suggest this isn't likely to be the case and reading it thus is either a deliberate choice to deviate from the source material or a gross misunderstanding of the context of the time. The first I have no problems with. The second I find myself more critical of.
In the Iliad, Menoetius was there when Achilles and Patroclus were called upon to war. Menoetius handed off his son the same way Peleus did Achilles.
In the Odyssey, after Odysseus and Telemachus kill the suitors, they must then deal with the fallout of what that means to their relationships with neighboring influential families, whose sons they just murdered, and who will likely come ask for compensation (or forcibly TAKE compensation, if they're strong enough to mount a resistance). Telemachus, famously, also kills a dozen female slaves... and has to worry about nothing on that front.
Combine these two facts and you get a very different picture of Patroclus's past. My suspicion has always been that Patroclus accidentally killing his playmate wasn't the problem, it's WHO THAT PLAYMATE'S PARENTS WERE in relation to Menoetius's land and power, that caused the trouble. Killing during this time period isn't problematic if you're the judge, jury, and executioner, at least until someone else of importance has a stake in proving you wrong. Had Patroclus's playmate just been some slave, his accidental murder wouldn't have mattered in the least.
Menoetius probably could have had Patroclus killed to compensate Amphidamas, a life for a life, a son for a son. But he chose instead to exile him to Peleus, which strips him of his princehood but preserves his life (and therefore his chance of distinguishing himself in the future). There, Patroclus does indeed live up to his father's hopes, distinguishing himself enough to be chosen as Achilles's therapon. Given these were times where warriors were glorified, I wouldn't even be surprised if Patroclus's history of violence was seen positively: he has the guts to grow into a fighter and just needs to channel that energy more strategically. I can certainly see a young Achilles thinking Patroclus, who was older and courageous, was so cool.
Worth pointing out too that Achilles sent away the commoners and just kept the commanders and some higher-ranking Phthians around at Patroclusâs funeral, and either he or the poet says that they were the ones Patroclus was closest to. There were scenarios where a prince could fall close to the bottom of the world (it happened to someone in the Odyssey!) and I am sure proximity to Achilles helped, but I do get the feeling that Patroclus was very much treated as One of Them, someone with status and occasional agency in the world even if second (or worse) to another. Menoetious probably still has some pull and the elites probably did circle their wagons for their own children to make sure none of them lost too much status.
"But what if Apollo killed Achilles to reunite him with Patroclus because they reminded him of his relationship with Hyacinthus?!" Cool theory. What if, what if Apollo actually didn't like Achilles at all and wanted to avenge Hector & Troilus? What if?
Iâve mentioned this before but I swear Hyacinthus as Apolloâs One True Love only started with Percy Jackson. Thereâs nothing wrong with it, except that we donât see too many depictions of gods hung up on mortals like that however many years later (outside of grudges). They didnât really move like that.
Also if you ever think âmaybe the god wanted to be niceâ no they didnât. They have faves they help but no mercy for their opps. And even with their faves they still mostly acting for themselves. Someone like Helen probably wished she escaped Aphroditeâs notice entirely.
A little thought but if Patroclus had survived, I suppose he would've taken Iphis as his wife...?
The thing I am endlessly curious about is a living Patroclusâs status after the death of Achilles. Achilles has this hopeful plan for Patroclus to take Pyrrhus to Phthia from Skyros but how much authority over him would he actually have? Could Neoptolemus give him the boot if got a little older, maybe Peleus dies, and he wants his own people around him and not the friend of his dead, absentee father? Would someone else take him in? Would his status as a kingâs son still matter or is he just anyone? How much wealth does Patroclus actually have (outside of Iphis, a clear gift) that is his and that he can take with him? Who is he to the Myrmidons without Achilles?
My hunch is that Achilles took steps to provide materially for Patroclus after his own inevitable death (his little plan supports that), but I could also see someone being born into the privileged center of his kingdom not quite understanding how tenuous things might be for those outside of that exact position. Achilles really doesnât know much about his sonâmaybe he gets turned out by Pyrrus who wants stuff to be his. Patroclus also seems to be well-liked by the other commanders, but maybe after Achilles dies they would smell blood in the water and try to take stuff that Achilles intended to be Patrolcusâs. Or maybe one actually would take him in, or he could get some of his own men and found or conquer a city or whatever.
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