We do not combat racism because it’s fun. We do not point out misogyny for giggles. We do not speak up about transphobia for laughs. We do not stand against bigotry for our amusement or the opportunity to feel superior to others, it’s because if left unchecked; it will claim lives. Just because they’re commonplace, spread throughout society and casually thrown about by the average person, doesn’t mean it’s beneath the effort of correcting. Indeed, it is because it is commonplace, that it deserves diligence. The best weapons aren’t always the loudest, it’s the ones you don’t perceive as a weapon.
me and @microbiologistmusings made a guide! we were talking about how frustrating it can be when so much (well meaning!) art of wheelchair users seems to get the chairs...not quite right. so maybe this will help :) i had a lot of fun drawing it and thank u to levi for your unending wisdom <3
Ever since CH4 showed us a whole lot about the Delta Rune Prophecy and its contents, said Prophecy has been a very heavily debated topic in the community. And naturally, it's drawn my interest as well! However, in looking at these panels for more time than is likely reasonable, I started to wonder if perhaps we're thinking too much of the future when we think of the Prophecy. If maybe, to truly understand it, we should actually be looking at the past.
You see, I believe the events described in the Prophecy have already happened, and are actually repeating. Or, at least, I believe it's a genuine possibility. As a preface, obviously this theory was mostly made for fun, and I'm fully expecting to get a lot of stuff wrong, but I'm sure you could guess that yourself. It's how theorizing works, after all!
Interested in how this could work? Well, then, join me in this adventure into the Dark, featuring:
Delta Rune symbolism
Final Tragedy theories
A fuckass birdcage
Hammer of Justice foreshadowing
A steep and irrecoverable descent into insanity
And so much more!
Or just read the Closing Argument at the end for a TL;DR if you're interested in only the theory itself and not the discussion. This is a very long post lmao.
Spoilers for Deltarune up to CH4. CW: Loss of autonomy, fire, swords.
The Girl
Because of Course It Starts With the Girl
Let's not beat around the bush here. Susie's in a weird position when it comes to the Prophecy. On the one hand, Ralsei's never questioned her place in the trio of heroes, and the girl is inextricably linked to Susie's signature Rude Buster by the panel which is literally named after the attack in the files.
On the other hand, the Girl is depicted holding a sword, which Susie doesn't use, and Ralsei even says that Susie's "supposed to equip ribbons."
In context, it's even worse. The Girl's panel is the last one shown, right before Susie starts talking about how awesome it is she's part of the Prophecy.
Susie [CH4]: Gotta be honest, Kris. I've never...
I've never really gotten picked...
... for anything before.
No one ever wanted to be my partner in class.
... Even got chosen last in gym.
But this...?
This is like... Something else, y'know?
Something... important.
Kris... before, I didn't think I could be a hero.
I wasn't good enough. I mean, I was... bad.
I still kinda am bad. In some ways, I guess.
But now, I... I got hope crossed on my heart.
Hope, written in truth. Written somewhere...
Written somewhere no one can erase!
By showing you a panel of the Girl with an un-Susie-like sword, then having Susie talk about this, it kinda feels like the game wants you to think Susie is not part of the Prophecy, to add tension to that scene. At least, that's how I felt playing through it the first time.
These weird inconsistencies have led many to speculate that perhaps Noelle is actually meant to be the Girl. It's not something I'll get into too much here, but the idea is that she can equip ribbons, and there's actually some swords she can equip. Not in regular gameplay, mind you, but she can equip the Jingle Blade and the Black Shard if you change your file. Of course, it's possible to argue the Black Shard isn't a sword since the icon for it is a triangle, but the Jingle Blade is 100% a sword.
However, I find this to be pretty weak. Noelle uses rings, the Jingle Blade and Black Shard are exceptions. And if you're going by exceptions, who's to say there won't be a sword in a future chapter that Susie can equip? The Girl also notably doesn't have antlers in her picture. Plus, the Girl is still associated with Rude Buster. And while some argue there might actually be two Girls in the Prophecy (something I'll discuss later), if there really is only one, you need to factor that spell in somewhere. Noelle can't cast Rude Buster, and while you can argue it's like Susie with the sword and she might end up learning to cast it later, having a really nice character whose entire thing is that she isn't decisive use a spell defined by "rudeness," by rejection of what is typically expected of her... would go kinda hard as a climax to her arc actually. I think I kinda disproved my argument oops. Look, the point is that Noelle can't use Rude Buster any more than Susie can use a sword. If they can, it's something we've yet to see.
Because of all of this, I still believe Susie is the most likely candidate for being the Girl, at least in the main route. However, the ribbons are still a problem for her, there's no confirmed sword she could wield, and Rude Buster isn't an unique spell to her. We see Gerson cast it (or at least, a spell that looks damn near identical except for color), so there's definitely a possibility for another girl to end up using it. Again, including Noelle potentially. Thus, if we want to look for other possible candidates beyond Susie, we would need to look at a girl who is "rude" enough to be as proficient with Rude magic as her. This doesn't mean they have to be mean, just irreverent, defiant and generally uninterested in being perceived as respectable and dignified, like Susie and Gerson.
So, to recap all this, for the Prophecy to perfectly line up, you'd need a girl who uses swords and whose personality matches the profile of a Rude Buster user; brazen, irreverent and confident. Ribbons are hard to determine, which is why they're secondary. But given Noelle can't use Rude Buster, there's no good candidate for it, then. Right?
Wait.
The Final Tragedy and December Holiday
(Don't worry I'll explain the antlers)
So, two things. First, I know "the knight which makes with blackened knife" is already a character in the Prophecy. That's something I'll address later, once I've actually explained what I think is going on, so I'll have to ask you to bear with me on that one.
Second, yes I'm assuming the Knight is Dess. Or, at the very least, connected primarily to Dess, regardless of whether it's literally her or a twisted clone or whatever the hell. It's technically not necessary, but it's the way this theory works best. So, if you don't believe Dess!Knight, which is perfectly respectable, feel free not to believe this theory either!
With that out of the way, what am I smoking this time? Am I really about to say Dess is the Girl from Prophecy? Well, yes. I believe Dess was the Girl from Prophecy. If she's the Knight, we know she wields swords, and her personality fits the archetype of a confident and rebellious Rude Buster user. I can't speak on the ribbon thing because Dess has never been in the party, but I should bring up just in case that Noelle feels the White Ribbon item "feels familiar." So... maybe there's a secondhand connection to Dess there. Could also be Kris' paper shuriken or something, though.
But of course, if we're looking at rude women wielding swords, I could just as easily point to Carol. Is there any other reason to believe Dess would be connected to the Prophecy? Well, perhaps.
First, let's establish a little of Delta Rune symbolism. Thanks to the carpet on Kris' Dark World room's floor, we can infer that the triangles of the Delta Rune each represent a Hero. Since Ralsei made the room, he colored the triangles according to who he believes each of the Heroes is. The left triangle is colored purple for the Girl, the middle one is green for the Prince (and pointing down because he's a Darkner presumably), and the right one is blue for the Cage.
... Okay the left's more pink than purple but the point stands. It's the same color as Susie's skin in the Dark World, that's the Girl's triangle.
With that in mind, I'd like to take a quick look at the little bit we have of the Prophecy's End.
So. Interesting use of the triangles here. The rightmost two are tilted but chilling overall, and the left is completely shattered.
Listen I am certainly not the first person to point this out, but if you're talking about a "final tragedy" and showing me the triangle associated specifically with the girl breaking, it's not hard for me to assume that what you're telling me is that the final tragedy is that something bad happens to the Girl. Specifics be damned, that looks like the most obvious conclusion to draw from the panel.
And it's not the only panel that might point to this. Recall the panel with Rude Buster I showed before: "And last, was the girl. At last, was the girl." People have rightfully pointed out that this makes no sense in the context of introducing the heroes, because the Girl is ostensibly the second one. If the Rude Buster panel is part of the hero introduction, you get something like (if you allow me to shorten panels for brevity):
Three heroes stand at the world's end.
First, the Cage.
At last, the Girl.
Second, the Girl.
Third, the Prince.
It's kinda weird. What some people have taken from this is that this panel might actually imply a fourth person, separate from the three heroes. So:
Three heroes stand at the world's end.
First, the Cage.
Second, the Girl.
Third, the Prince.
At last, the (other) girl.
Valid idea! However, to me, it seems weird to refer to two different characters with the same pseudonym. What I find more likely is that the Rude Buster panel is just from a completely different part of the Prophecy. And with the wording of "and last/at last", combined with the Final Tragedy being that something bad happens to the Girl, we can try to put together a picture of what it may mean.
Let's think about what Susie said when she saw the tale's end: if something bad is supposed to happen to the girl, then Ralsei and Kris would try to stop it. So, it's possible that something happens to incapacitate the Cage and the Prince at a critical point, and the Girl must sacrifice herself to stop the end of the world. The panels would end up looking a little like this:
Three heroes stand at the world's end.
Cage, Girl, Prince.
[Some other stuff]
The Cage knelt in quiet, and beaten laid the Prince.
And last, was the girl. At last, was the Girl.
Alone against the dark, she faced her fate.
The last Prophecy. The story's end.
And then. When all hope is lost for the tale, the Final Tragedy unveils.
To save the worlds, there is only one way.
[Something bad happens to the Girl]
Only then, will the worlds be saved.
... Look the tense the Prophecy's written in is pretty inconsistent, it bothers me just as much as you but I've elected to ignore it because I really don't think it means anything.
Excusing my pretty poor rhyming and understanding that the exact wording will be different, you can kinda see the idea, right? And if I haven't completely lost you yet, you can probably tell where I'm going with this. Something bad happened to Dess. Something bad happens to the Girl. It could be connected.
Of course, this wouldn't be evidence on its own. It's entirely possible that, even if Dess' fate is similar to the Girl's, that's only for narrative reasons. Some kind of parallel drawn between the two to enhance the themes of the story, there's definitely a couple ways that could work.
Except. There is a way to connect Dess to the Prophecy's end directly. Because if you backtrack after Susie breaks the panel, you can get this infamous interaction.
Narrator: (It seems the way is blocked.)
(You put out your hand...)
(And, just out of view, just perfectly out of view,
Another hand pressed against yours
And pushed you back.)
As you may know, when that dialogue appears, the game plays the sound of a guitar at 0% volume. Dess is the character most directly associated with guitars, so this associates the message to Dess. Which means there is a clear reference to Dess in the room where we first hear of the Prophecy's End and the Final Tragedy. There are many reasons this could be here, but one of them certainly is that Dess is associated to the Final Tragedy. Possibly, because she was the Girl from Prophecy and suffered whatever fate that Final Tragedy refers to.
In fact, the specific horrible fate Dess suffered is becoming whatever the hell the Knight is, right? She became extremely powerful, but twisted and monstrous. And if you'll recall, part of the Prophecy is that "LOVE finds its way to the Girl." There's an obvious double meaning there. Either we're talking about regular old wholesome love, or we're talking about Level of Violence. And both in Undertale Geno and Deltarune Weird Route, we see how obtaining power by hurting others desensitizes people to violence, turning them into something horrible. Just like Dess.
Not only that, but you could also argue a connection between Dess and the Prophecy thanks to the lyrics of Raise up your Bat. Because of course I'm doing lyric analysis I can't fucking escape it.
[Raise up your Bat]
Come follow me into the dark
With your heart as the ark
Which shall shine you the way
Because I'm with you in the dark
With your heart as my mark
Which shall guide you the way,
through the waves
This is a very Dess coded song, with all the imagery of bats and the like. Specifically, it may be a song written by Dess. And she's asking someone to "follow her into the dark" with "their heart as the ark which shall shine them the way." That sounds a lot like Dess may have been having adventures with someone with a shining Soul capable of shining through the darkness, doesn't it? So, Dess may have been doing Prophecy stuff.
Finally, and most shocking of all! A song commonly associated with Dess is Lost Girl.
... I don't think this is good evidence I just think it's funny.
So, there's some evidence that Dess might have been the Girl from Prophecy, and thus the Prophecy already happened. However, the Prophecy is also happening now, as in, during the period of time we play through. Like, there's a lot of Prophecy panels that are way too close to the events of the game to dismiss. The "lord of screens cleaved red by blade," the Lancer one about him saying "toothpaste then boy," all the panels with the music notes to solve the puzzles in CH4, and that's only some of the examples. It's too much for me to say that our three heroes aren't at least partially doing Prophecy stuff. That's without bringing up that, again, the Girl we've seen doesn't have antlers. Plus, the Knight is a character in the Prophecy ostensibly separate from the Girl, and the way they're described is very similar to how we see them in the game.
To explain all this is, let's finally get to the titular Loop aspect of the theory!
A Story Retold
Look at the actual last panel of the Prophecy.
I said before that the left triangle breaking would imply something bad happened to the Girl, yet the left triangle at the end is perfectly fine. This would be pretty bad for the theory, if it were the only weird thing about this panel.
However, there's also a certain other symbol that shouldn't be here. Supposedly, the Prophecy ends with the Heroes banishing the Angel's Heaven. In fact, there's an entire panel talking about how the Angel itself will be banished and "meet its desire." So, why is the Angel symbol, the circle with wings, still there?
One way to explain this is that it doesn't mean anything. It's the end of the Delta Rune prophecy, so you show the Delta Rune, no matter what actually happened. This is reasonable.
However, it is also possible that it's implying something more. It could be implying that the Prophecy will repeat. A new Angel will appear and a new Girl will join the squad to help banish it, thus we show the Delta Rune with both the Angel and the Girl chilling.
Now, this isn't the strongest evidence, but it does give us a basis of what the theory looks like. The Prophecy is actually a story that repeats over and over with different "characters", and possibly different events altogether.
With this established, it's not unreasonable that "the bad thing that happens to the Girl" is turning into the Knight in some way. Since the story repeats, it's entirely possible for one person to fulfill different roles in each "loop." Dess was the Girl, and now is (to some extent) the Knight. Putting it all together, a possible way for the Prophecy to end is:
And then. When all hope is lost for the tale, the Final Tragedy unveils.
To save the worlds, there is only one way.
The Girl must fall to violence, and grab the blackened blade. A fallen hero knighted to begin the story again.
Only then, will the worlds be saved.
Susie [End of CH4 Dark World]: Like something like that would happen.
I wouldn't let it happen... Kris wouldn't let it happen...
And obviously YOU wouldn't let it happen.
"I wouldn't let myself fall so far, and Kris wouldn't let me. And obviously, you, Ralsei, the one who kept trying to steer me away from violence the entire time, you wouldn't let it happen."
(Admittedly the panel might have to be a little easier to understand for Susie to immediately get it but again exact wording will vary)
So, there it is. The full thesis statement of Prophecy Loop:
The Prophecy is an event (or sequence of events) that has happened several times and will continue to occur unless interrupted. It starts when the Knight causes the world to almost end by bringing forth the Angel's Heaven, and three heroes (Cage, Girl, Prince) work to banish that Angel. Then, the Girl who stops the end of the world in one "run" goes on to become the Knight of the following "run," making the story repeat all over.
This is... a pretty big leap, admittedly. Like, I'd like to say everything I've said is somewhat reasonable at least, but I'm reading a lot into tiny details for my evidence. And unfortunately, there's not that much I can do there.
The Girl is probably the most well defined part of the Prophecy by the nature of having the most panels, and that means working with the rest of the Prophecy to prove Prophecy Loop is really difficult. The Prince is so infamously under-detailed that there's not a lot I can do to speculate who could have taken the role back when Dess was the Girl, and the Angel and/or Player are such a can of worms that I don't really want to discuss them until I can make sure the theory isn't actively falling apart from every other angle.
Really, the Cage having "human parts" is possibly the best info we have on any other potential heroes, but it's still not much by itself. To really use the Cage for this theory, you'd need to find evidence that an otherworldly entity possessed a human character before the events of the game, and it's not like that exists, right?
... Am I really doing the same transition twice-?
The Cage
I bet you expected me to bring the Vessel into it, but it's actually just Kris again
So why does Kris have that birdcage? I could be wrong on this, but I somehow doubt they actually had a bird. Not to mention the dialogue that "it's seen a few crashes" even before we started playing the game, implying it's contained a rebellious version of Kris' soul more than once.
I am not the first to suggest that this could mean Kris has been controlled by something other than us in the past, and has had to use that birdcage to contain their soul in the same way they do when we're around. This could also connect to why they become noticeably more withdrawn after Dess' disappearance (though that could just be trauma, it might also be related to an unknown entity entering their body then leaving), why Carol was obsessed with heart-shaped objects before we came around (assuming she knows of this other entity controlling Kris), why Kris had moments where they would "go still" and go to play the piano without anyone looking (this is odd in general, but the idea is that these were moments where Kris regained control and started impulsively playing the piano like in the Light World segment of CH4), etc. The issue with this idea has always been that it's a little hard to tell what exactly takes control of Kris. Is it Gaster? Toby Fox himself? Chara somehow?
Well, if Prophecy Loop is true, that gives a pretty straightforward explanation to what happened there. Kris may have been the Cage of the old run as well, so they just contained the previous "Player" there.
(Putting Player in quotations for mysterious reasons I'll address later. Again, gigantic can of worms there)
Plus, it is generally assumed they were involved in Dess' disappearance somehow (mainly because of all the weirdness surrounding them and the bunker, and the existence of a save file ostensibly made by Kris). One way to explain that involvement is if Kris was part of an old "run" of the Prophecy.
And here's where I would tell you that this is evidence for Prophecy Loop with 100% certainty, but not so fast. The big issue here is that we know so little about this hypothetical prior entity controlling Kris that there's no way to link it to a Player or Player-like character. All of the evidence I have for Kris being the old Cage is just about them being controlled in general, and I struggle to find anything more specific than that. It could be evidence for them being the old Cage, but it could also be evidence for some other thing, is the point.
However, maybe I'm looking at this wrong. We don't know shit about the hypothetical old "Player", so we can't argue Kris was the old Cage through that. However, perhaps we can compare Kris themselves to the new Cage. Or rather, the thing that was supposed to be the new Cage.
Sub-Theory: Alright I'm actually bringing the Vessel into it this time
This next part isn't strictly necessary to believe Prophecy Loop, but it does add some interesting stuff to the story imo.
Let's begin by taking a step back and looking at the GONER MAKER sequence. We see the red soul appear, and then we create a Vessel, with the help of (someone who is presumed to be) Gaster. However, someone other than so-called-Gaster (judging by the difference in speech) discards the Vessel and puts the soul in Kris, causing them to be the Cage in the version of the Prophecy we play through.
Giving assumed-to-be-Gaster wanted you to create the Vessel, and the same individual calls the game/narrative "their Deltarune" after CH4, it's not hard to assume that the Vessel was actually meant to be the new run's Cage. However, someone decided this shouldn't be so, and instead threw the soul into the body of the old run's Cage, Kris. I presume this is somehow the work of the Knight Conspiracy, so Carol/Dess/Knight-who-is-and-isn't-Dess/Kris/Asgore(?)/ERAM(???)/Secret Sixth Option, because they want to do something with the Prophecy and Kris being the Cage benefits whatever plans they have. I don't think it's too much of a stretch, seeing as Carol is clearly interested in Kris and the soul, so forgive me if I can't explain it in full detail. It's kinda besides the point, anyway.
The bigger takeaway is that the new run's Cage was supposed to be a Vessel, which leads to the question of whether it's possible that the old run's Cage was also a Vessel. Indeed, Prophecy Loop can be somewhat connected to Kris-Vessel theory. If you don't know what that is, I'll leave a link to a SpookyDood video discussing it, but the idea is pretty straightforward; Kris may have been born as a Vessel, but gained individuality after they were "colored in with care" like the monochrome copies of the Flying Aces. The main pieces of evidence come from Egg rooms and associations made to Goners in those rooms; there's dialogue that can be read as calling Kris a "knockoff" and there being grey that they can't wash away (copies are monochrome and Goners are monochrome, etc). The idea is that Kris' arc involves rejecting the role they were born into by becoming an individual beyond their original purpose as a mere Vessel, which sorta parallels Susie and Ralsei directly fighting the Prophecy, etc.
The main problems with Kris-Vessel as it is currently understood (that Kris is the Vessel from the GONER MAKER sequence) come from... well, the GONER MAKER sequence. For starters, the fact that it doesn't do shit. Kris is completely unaffected by the entire process, which is odd if they're made directly from it. More importantly, the fact that calling the Vessel 'Kris' yields the response "AN INTERESTING COINCIDENCE," and calling the Creator 'Kris' has the big WD himself saying "YOU ARE ABOUT TO MEET SOMEONE VERY, VERY WONDERFUL." These responses are similar to things that happen if you name the Vessel/Creator after other characters in the game. Assuming somewhat linear time in the scene, it implies that Kris is already an existing entity separate from the Vessel before GONER MAKER ends.
This is a problem if Kris comes from the GONER MAKER, for sure. However, Prophecy Loop can avoid this by saying that Kris is not the Vessel, but a Vessel. Kris already exists before GONER MAKER because they were made before we arrived, but they're still a Vessel, explaining all the Goner imagery in the egg rooms.
And that leads to a sort of theory symbiosis between Prophecy Loop and Kris-Vessel. Prophecy Loop fixes some issues Kris-Vessel runs into, and Kris-Vessel in turn provides evidence for Prophecy Loop. The argument is that if Kris is a Vessel, and they're not related to GONER MAKER for the reasons stated previously, then the only way this can work is if they were a Vessel created prior to the events of the game, which suggests an old run of the Prophecy. So, evidence that Kris is a Vessel can be spun into Prophecy Loop evidence to some extent.
How much do I believe this? Well, eh... I've always been a bit iffy on Kris-Vessel seeing how detailed Kris' childhood backstory is. But I do think a lot of the evidence for Kris-Vessel is pretty compelling, and I can see the vision narratively even when I know it's controversial, so I think it's worth considering.
With this, I've officially ran through the main arguments about how Prophecy Loop works and why one would believe it. So, before we can go any further with the idea, we have to ask, does this even make sense?
Thematic Implications and Logistical Issues
Overanalyzing Prophecy panels, weird guitar dialogue and birdcages is cool and all, but Deltarune is a story, so our conclusions have to work as a story. What we have to ask is, how would the events of the Prophecy repeating further the themes of Deltarune?
And, well, you're smart. You've seen the way I presented the theory. You know what I'm angling for from a thematic sense, I imagine.
Gerson [Post Hammer of Justice win]: You remind me a bit of someone I used to know.
Susie: ... Who
Gerson: Just a character from that old story...
Susie:... Lord of the Hammer, huh. Hell if I'm reading that.
... though, wait a sec.
Isn't that... what Dragon Blazers was based on?
Gerson: Yep, yep. And so they changed parts of the story.
Of course, the biggest fans got mad... but, isn't it interesting?
The book was already just an interpretation of something else.
Stories can be retold. They can be changed... That's what I believe.
(Hey look it's one of the quotes in the image I used!)
A big point brought up in CH4 is the power of retelling a story, of changing it to bring forth a different vision. The Prophecy is, in itself, a story. It gets retold in Lord of the Hammer, then Dragon Blazers retells it again. What Prophecy Loop suggests, then, is that it is literally retold when it repeats. And maybe some things change. Maybe Dess never saw a lord of screens or a queen's unstoppable chariot, maybe the old Girl had antlers and Susie doesn't, but the main point of the story is still retold (I'll elaborate more on this in a moment, I'll just finish the point first).
And so, with all those potential ways it can be told, it's up to those writing it to define its ending. Except, they never do.
Gerson [During Hammer of Justice Fight]: Yes, the old tale, based upon the prophecy...
Lord of the Hammer.
Susie: Think I heard about it. What happens? [...]
Gerson: There was only one more chapter... After that,
It all stopped.
That next book, it never did get written.
The story, it became so grand, so overwhelming,
Some say it swallowed up the author himself.
The ones who could write the next, the youth, the pen was lying there for them to pick up.
To make the next page.
...they never did.
The bell's ringin' now. Seems we've reached the final rounds.
So... how do you think it all ends?
No, how do you want it to end?
Susie: An ending, huh...
...If I could choose I guess...
I wouldn't have an ending!
It's just better if stuff just... goes on forever, right?
(Oh my Angel it's the other line I used!)
If we assume that the Prophecy never truly ends, but simply resets, we can draw a pretty clear link to Lord of the Hammer, can't we? Lord of the Hammer never got finished, but instead, it got retold in the form of Dragon Blazers. Similarly, Dess' Prophecy run stopped with the Final Tragedy, potentially the sixth and final written chapter of Lord of the Hammer, but that didn't end the overarching loop, the larger story. Instead, the "narrative" of the Prophecy ended up repeating, getting "retold," with Susie and her gang.
And Susie's mindset here is presumably the mindset of every Girl before her. Instead of ending the narrative decisively, stopping the repeating Prophecy in some way, they just let it go on forever. They choose not to have an ending, so the story gets retold from the start. This could connect with some major themes of the game, such as the refusal to move on from the past. The world itself is "stuck" in this loop in the same way that the Holiday home is "stuck in the holidays", Carol and Asgore and Kris specifically being stuck to the entire Dess situation, Tenna is stuck back in the good old days, even Alvin with Gerson, etc.
The climax of the game, the CH7 that goes beyond Lord of the Hammer's final chapter, will potentially include Susie breaking free from this cycle by deciding to make her own ending. That would be why there's so much emphasis on Susie being different from the Girl in Prophecy. It's not that she's not the Girl, is that she's different from all the Girls who came before her.
However, anyone can make a Deltarune fanfic sorta following the themes of the story. The next question to raise is does this actually work from a logistical standpoint?
This is the elaboration of the differences between Prophecy "runs" I mentioned earlier. See, there's some pretty big issues with that idea, which I'm sure some of you are already concerned about.
Before talking about that, is it possible that every Prophecy panel we see applies to every "run" of the Prophecy? Well, no. Dess has antlers, so the images we have of the Girl don't match her. And the Girl is explicitly a monster so we can't even dodge the issue with Human Dess Theory. Thus, at the very least, the Girl's panels must change, and at that point any panel can change.
This raises two issues. For one, the church's religion around the Prophecy. It seems the church considers the Prophecy a one and done event, meaning their knowledge can't change over time, and that's not great for the idea that the Prophecy changes. If they know the Girl is antler-less, then Dess was never a Girl candidate, for example.
The second problem is arguably bigger, however, and that is that the possibility of panels changing kinda throws all our evidence out the window. I said the Girl might be Dess because she uses swords, but I'm ignoring that the Girl doesn't have antlers. So it seems like I'm picking and choosing what is consistent across different "runs" and what isn't to fit the theory, thus making the arguments sorta ass.
There is a way around it, though, albeit not the best workaround ever. And it comes from something Catty says in her church speech.
Catty [CH4 Church speech]: [The hero with horns]'s honestly SO cute.
I mean, there, like, aren't any pictures, but like...
There it is. You see it? The fact that there aren't any pictures in the church's version means the knowledge the church possesses and the knowledge the CH4 panels show is different.
What could this mean? Well, put it like this. If the church only possesses limited knowledge of the Prophecy, it's entirely possible their knowledge is universal to all versions of the Prophecy. The three heroes and the Angel, as seen in the symbol, the horns of the Third Hero... maybe these things are consistent across all versions of the Prophecy. Notably, the heroes plural having swords is one of these hypothetically consistent points:
Catty [CH4 Church speech]: There's, like, these heroes, and they're like, SO cool.
They have like, swords and stuff?
So that particular argument for Dess being the previous Girl stands. The Rude Buster point gets shakier, but you still have the connection between the text box with the guitar noise and the end of the Prophecy, plus all the non-Prophecy panel related evidence like Raise up your Bat. Not to mention the birdcage exists sorta separate from the Prophecy anyway. Basically, yes some points are made weaker by the assumption that the Prophecy changes, but not all of them.
What is it that changes between iterations, then? Well, the specifics. What the Girl looks like, Jockington growing a beard, the piano notes... all of these are things that the Church may not know, because they apply only to our "run." Ralsei presumably has this more specific knowledge as well, but (as far as we know) he hasn't been around to see previous runs of the Prophecy, so he'd have no clue about the "looping" aspect unless the Final Tragedy makes it clear.
The next logistical problem to address is... well, the old "Player." I sorta acted like this theory can explain the previous entity possessing Kris, except, it really doesn't? Like, Kris being possessed by a "Player" doesn't actually tell us much about said "Player" or their nature.
I mean, it can't be a real life human like us, right? Unless Toby Fox himself is gonna end up inserted in the story as the old Player, I got no clue how that could work. So it could be a fictional character who still views Deltarune as fiction, so like, a layer of reality above the Deltarune story, but still below ours.
... Goddamnit, the best candidate is Gaster. It sorta works with the way Gerson describes retelling stories, right? Gaster "played through" the Prophecy, and now he's helping us experience our own version of it. He's the Dragon Blazers devs, who read Lord of the Hammer and made the video game after it. It's kind of a massive reach that has basically no evidence, but it kinda works as a bandaid fix? If you ignore Undertale lore because I have legitimately no idea how to tie that into this???
Yeah listen this is certainly the biggest hole in the theory for now. If you wish to disregard this theory on that basis, feel free to do so. The reason it isn't terribly damning for me is... well, there's a difference between "it can't work" and "I can't figure out how to make it work," and this to me feels like the latter. Like, the issue isn't that it's physically impossible or that there's evidence disproving a previous Player-like entity- if anything, the birdcage is evidence for it. And Gaster specifically being the old Player feels like it could work, even I struggle to connect it to Undertale lore. The issue is that this whole thing is such an abstract and confounding concept that I can't theorize anything about it without just making shit up. So, it may work if it gets approached from the right angle, but I can't tell what that angle is.
Is this all shaky? Oh, definitely. I never said this theory was perfect. There's not, like, an abundance of evidence, and there's probably even more logistical problems I'm not thinking about. I just think it's a possibility worth considering considering, as there is a bit of evidence, it's issues aren't completely damning, and I think it makes for a cool story if nothing else, especially given the narrative emphasis on retelling stories and being stuck in the past.
So, we have the general concept of the theory, we established why it can work narratively, and we addressed some of its potential issues. However, there's still a bit more to be discussed in regards to what this theory could mean for different aspects of the narrative. The rest of the post should be treated more as sub-theories of Prophecy Loop than part of the main argument. Basically, I'm about to go completely insane, so feel free to disregard the following theories while still believing Prophecy Loop, if you're so inclined.
But if you're willing to put up with my mad ramblings, then I'm happy to oblige. After all, there's a couple characters from Prophecy I haven't talked about yet, aren't there? The Prince, the Angel, and the Knight. I have my own thoughts about who each of the old versions of these characters could be, but they're... pretty out there. If Prophecy Loop is true, I fully believe Dess is the old Girl and Kris is the old Cage, but I am not certain about these other roles. But I'll still talk about them, of course! I'll go in descending order of sanity, starting with a guess that is... funnier more than it is likely.
The Knight
All your theories are TRUE!!!
So, I originally didn't think much about the old Knight when putting the theory together. Frankly, I just figured that we wouldn't know who they were. Like, as much as the Angel is the one who gets banished in the end, I somehow doubted that the Knight who "dueled with the Heroes strife by strife" would be around as well. So, I believe the theory works even if we have no clue who the old Knight is.
But, well. If we're going for completionism... Carol does have a blackened sword.
(To be clear it could be a sheath but Asgore does talk about Black Shards while standing directly in front of it so)
I mentioned it offhandedly before, but it's true. If your metric for who a Girl from Prophecy could be is "a girl who is rude and uses swords," then Carol would fit the description. And because the Girl turns into the Knight at the end of the Prophecy per this theory, then if Carol was the Girl of the run before the Dess run, she would be the Knight when Dess was the Girl. It would explain the sword, but it could also tie into her obsession with the Soul. How? No clue! Even if this is miraculously true, there are some things I doubt we'd be able to answer right now, and this is one of them.
Of course, Carol as the Knight of the old run would have to have a very different MO from the Knight we see in Deltarune. Given she and Dess coexisted to some degree, it would be impossible for Carol to be off aura-farming in the dark the whole time like our beloved Knight does. But as I said before, details of the Prophecy can change between runs, so this isn't super damning.
Do I fully believe this? Eh, not particularly. I just think it'd be extremely funny if Carol!Knight and Dess!Knight turn out to both be true to an extent. "Everyone wins" type ending.
In any case, we know so little about Carol that I can't say much more, which is why this is more a funny aside than a full on sub-theory. However, the next part is gonna require a bit more thought.
The Angel
Or: watch as I fumble around with the easiest theory layup in history
So, I do have some things to say about the Angel in regards to Prophecy Loop, but they require a good deal of introduction before we get there. Basically, I need to tell you what I believe about the Angel in a general sense before going into the theory specific stuff. Bear with me for a second, I swear I'll circle back to Prophecy Loop (heh) eventually.
Let's review what we know of the Angel. They're a powerful, eldritch being who unnerves anyone who stares into their visage. There's an interaction with the Angel doll in Rudy's room in CH1 where Kris is unsettled by its lack of facial features, and the gang does not enjoy what the Angel looks like in the Prophecy panels.
Susie [Angel Prophecy Panel]: Hey, below the words, that picture...
What the hell... is that supposed to be...?
Ralsei: That... that's the Angel, Susie.
What... to my understanding, it actually looks like.
Susie: ...
I... I dunno about that, man.
Interacting with the Prophecy Panel again: (It's a prophecy...)
(...Looking at it made you feel strange. You did not investigate further.)
The Angel is also usually described as "watching over" the world of Deltarune.
Catty [CH4 Church speech]: Oh my god, so like, the Angel,
that's watching over all of us?
Combine that with the Soul being hidden under an Angel doll in CH4, and the door in Ralsei's castle that has a heart surrounded by wings, and it seems easy to deduce the Angel is just the Player.
And yeah, this works well enough. We're otherworldly, we're "watching over" the world in the sense we're looking at it from the outside, the save points constantly reference a vague power of ours, and the featurelessness can be attributed to the fact we're all different. So, yeah, there's nothing complicated about the Angel, at least in the current run of the Prophecy.
...
Enter Noelle.
Noelle [CH2, Ferris Wheel]: It's a dream, right?
I'd grow big angel wings,
And fly as I can, gazing back at it all...
Noelle [CH4 Holiday Home]: Um, oh, haha, those? I've had those since I was a little kid...
They're from when I was the Angel in the Holiday Pageant.
... But I liked them so much, I just... kept wearing them.
Noelle [CH2 Weird, FreezeRing scene]: Huh...? A ring...?
Faha, sorry, I don't think WE need something like that!
Addison: C'mon, angel! You can't get stronger without good equipment!
Spamton [CH2 Weird, 0 left]: [Angel], [Angel]
ARE YOU LOOKING FOR THE [Ring] of [Thorns]?
[Snow] When it snows,
Me and my sister and everyone have a contest
To make the biggest snow angel of all.
We lie on the ground and spread out our arms
And wave them until we get a shape just like us.
I'm the smallest
Even smaller than Kris
But I don’t lose.
Because, after we stand up to look
Dess always tells me,
"Hey, look, Elly! Yours has more hidden underneath!"
And pushes away all the snow I couldn't reach
So I have the biggest wings of all.
I wish it could snow
whenever I wanted.
Every other Angel reference in this damn game links back to Noelle in some way and it is confounding. That's without mentioning this bullshit:
"Ring" of Heaven's call, specifically showing a circle with wings so it can be interpreted as a double meaning with the ring of a phone call and the rings people wear on their fingers. And Noelle is the ring user.
And, like, this all feels like a layup for Prophecy Loop, right? Ostensibly, if there are two Girls, two Princes (we'll get to that), and there were supposed to be two Cages, there would also be two Angels. And it just so happens there are two big Angel candidates, us and Noelle. Easy, right?
Except, there's obviously some big problems there. For one, both us and Noelle would be Angels of the new run, so we still don't have an old Angel. For two, Noelle and the Player are extremely different entities with entirely different powers and roles. As much as she's connected to the Angel, the actual descriptions of the being as an eldritch entity that's unnerving to perceive just don't fit Noelle. So, let me tell you a few possibilities about how I believe this issue can be resolved.
Possibility #1: Noelle as a Symbolic Angel
It is entirely possible that Noelle will only be symbolically tied to the Angel, and that no events in the story will literally make them the same thing. How? Idk, but it's possible. We just don't have the understanding of the Angel we would need to definitively state whether Noelle works as a parallel to it or not. If we're going with Player Angel, then Noelle being a gamer interested in secrets and glitches could certainly be relevant, at least. Additionally... uh...
Okay I can't actually comment that much more about this. If the connection is only symbolic, we'd need to know more about the actual Angel to connect it to Noelle. The real reason I'm bringing up the possibility is so you know I'm aware of it, and you should be aware of it too in case it ends up being the real reason for the connections. However, when narrative analysis becomes impossible, we turn to theories!
Possibility #2: Noelle as the Angel's Servant
"The ring of Heaven's call" isn't something isolated to the one Prophecy panel. There is also an Organikk in the Sacred Moss hallway that says:
Organikk [CH4 Sacred Moss hallway]: Who will call the girl who snows?
Combined with the ring imagery in the "ring of Heaven's call" panel, it's not hard to assume that Heaven will call the girl who snows, aka Noelle. From this, a possibility is that Noelle won't be the Angel, but rather do something on the Angel's orders. Maybe it's something that will come up later in the Normal Route, maybe it's Weird Route exclusive, but the point remains the same.
This is certainly a possibility, but one I don't find all that likely. The lines that connect Noelle to the Angel don't imply that Noelle will be at the Angel's side, they all imply Noelle is the Angel. She's the one growing wings, the one wearing the costume, the one Addison refers to as "angel"... Spamton could be debatable as speaking to the Player instead of Noelle, but given the only time he talks about the Angel directly is when Noelle's involved, that would be a little strange.
Which leaves us with the possibility I'm probably leaning on the most.
Possibility #3: Noelle as an Ascended Angel
To summarize our conclusions so far, Noelle will be the Angel, but she currently doesn't possess the Angel's characteristics. From this, it could be deduced that she may become the Angel. In other words, the Angel is a position that a character will "ascend" into, as opposed to something like the roles of the Cage and the Girl and the Prince of the Dark which are more pre-ordained. Again, whether this will happen in Normal Route, Weird Route, or both, I have no clue, but that's beside the point.
This certainly fits the idea that Noelle will be "called" by Heaven in some way, a sort of divine calling to be the Angel. Symbolically, it also makes sense with Dess specifically being the one to make the wings of Noelle's snow angels bigger. The idea there is that the Knight is pushing forward the Prophecy by doing Knight things, which could include pushing Noelle into the Angel's role, "giving her wings."
And this even fits with the way the Angel is described in the Undertale version of the Delta Rune Prophecy. Given Undertale and Deltarune are "parallel stories", I think it's not an insane stretch to say that the Angels described in both their versions of the Prophecy may be similar. In case you need a refresher, here's that game's version of the Angel:
Waterfall Plaque [Undertale]: However... There is a prophecy.
The Angel... The One Who Has Seen The Surface...
They will return. And the underground will go empty.
(I wonder if anyone's checking the links and seeing the moment I kinda gave up and started linking text dumps as a whole lmao)
The general understanding is that this can either mean "the Angel breaks the barrier and monsters leave the underground" for the Pacifist Route, and "the Angel kills everyone" for the Geno Route. Now, Frisk/Chara/The Player can to an extent be said to apply for those two routes, but Undertale has more than two endings. The underground doesn't empty on a Neutral Route, implying that if you do that route, either the Prophecy fails, or the Angel is just someone not seen in the game. In other words, the Angel may be a different person in Neutral than in Pacifist and Geno, at least if you assume that the Prophecy can't straight up fail.
And it's not just the Neutral Route, actually. Note the wording of "The One Who Has Seen The Surface" returning to the Underground to empty it. For Frisk and the Player, the "returning" part only applies if you take resets into account, but I personally feel like that's very iffy (the rest of the world wouldn't see it as "returning" if they can't remember they left), especially since doing a Geno route first technically would invalidate the Prophecy.
So, perhaps the Angel is just Chara, who has both seen the surface and been to the Underground before the events of the game, so they're "returning" no matter what. And for Geno, this works quite well. Although we're the ones guiding Chara at the start, they definitely help a bit, walking through puzzles and swinging a few times there at the end. The idea of a "fallen Angel" also fits with Chara calling themselves a "demon."
But in Pacifist, you could argue there's actually a better Angel candidate than Frisk, Chara and the Player. Asriel. He has also seen the surface, as he walked out with Chara's corpse that one time, he returns by coming back to life, and he's the one who breaks the barrier to empty the underground. Actually, he fits both sides of the Prophecy, as he first empties the underground by taking everyone's souls, then also empties it by breaking the barrier. And not only does it work, it almost feels like the direct implication, as Asriel takes a very Angel-like form at the end, with infinite power and big ass wings.
To recap, the best candidate for the Angel Pacifist is Asriel, the best Geno Angel candidate is probably Chara, and Neutral needs a different person to take the role. Which means that the title of "Angel" might not be something you're born into, but something you obtain. In particular, you could attach it to the idea of "reaching the absolute."
Chara [Undertale Geno Ending]: Now, we have reached the absolute.
Check Asriel: The Absolute GOD of Hyperdeath!
What's noteworthy is that both of these characters require Player intervention to become "absolute." You can't reach the Asriel fight without resetting after a Neutral Ending, and Chara can't do a Geno route without you guiding them to guide Frisk into killing everyone (or something, the possession system in Undertale is weird lol). So, the Player guides an in-universe character to obtain massive power, which turns them into the Angel. Sound familiar?
YOU [CH4 Weird Route]: Noelle will get stronger.
This interpretation of Noelle becoming the Angel because we made her stronger helps solve all the issues we had before. The Player is connected to the role of the Angel because we're the ones who make it happen, explaining the Angel doll on our Soul and the wings on the door with the Soul. But Noelle is still the one actually turning into the Angel, explaining all her connections to growing wings and just the Angel in general. To put it differently, the Angel is an in-universe character, but the Angel's power comes from us.
Now, does this happen in the Normal Route, Weird Route, both? I have no clue! But it doesn't matter. I don't blame you if you've forgotten, but the point of this whole thing was to talk about the Angel as it pertains to Prophecy Loop, and which route Noelle becomes the Angel in doesn't really matter for that theory. Because the important takeaway from all this rambling is that people can become the Angel, which gives us a better idea of what to look for when thinking of the Angel which Dess, Kris and the old Prince supposedly banished in this theory.
Ignoring what I said before, my first idea was Gaster, because of course it was. He's got demon connections with the abundance of the number 6 around him and the whole connection between the Depths and Hell, so you could say he's a fallen Angel. And that could connect to this book which appears to talk of the origin of... something darkness related, probably Shadow Crystals.
Peculiar Book [CH4 Roots room]: And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with its tears.
Then, slowly, from the bitter water, something grew.
It looked like glass.
Fallen star, fallen Angel, word association, boom, Gaster. Plus, Shadow Crystals may be connected to him, and they're born from tears, and an Organikk before the "who will call the girl who snows" Organikk says:
Organikk [CH4 Sacred Moss hallway]: Why does the Angel make its cry?
So you can see how my mind went there. I certainly think this is a possibility, especially because Gaster is literally the only person I can think of that would constantly be watching over the Deltarune world (even the Player has a limited perspective, after all), and the only one guiding fate as some lines from the churchgoers imply it does.
Alvin [CH4 Start]: The poor man. It seems the Angel has made a difficult path for him...
However, it's possible the church is just wrong. I mean, this theory in general makes them wrong about the idea the Prophecy is a one and done event, so why not this as well? I don't love the argument, but there is legitimately no good way to reconcile the Angel watching over everyone with Noelle's associations, so allow me to sorta disregard this detail.
But, uhm. There might be a better candidate. Except I almost don't want to bring it up, because I think this probably enters top 5 most insane things I've said in this blog and that's a very real accomplishment. Still, there's no shame in theorizing I suppose. The same way there's no shame in an Egg.
The Forgotten Man as the Previous Angel
So I'm definitely losing my mind here but I swear there's connections I see them in the walls.
By the way, to clarify, I don't believe the Forgotten Man and Gaster are the same person, which I imagine should be obvious given I'm bringing them up as separate guesses :p Feel free to believe they're both the old Angel if you think they're the same, but their speech patterns are just way too different for me to be able to believe it without issue (heh). Among other things, really, but the speech patterns are the big one. I could accept Forgotten Man being Deltarune Gaster separate from Voice-from-GONER-MAKER-Gaster, but I don't see those two being the same.
That aside, let's go over some characteristics here. The Forgotten Man is someone that Kris doesn't like thinking about, and whose face Kris impulsively covers with a tree when they draw him. So, unnerving for Kris to look at, that's similar to the Angel's visage being unsettling. Plus, it's sort of implied that this man is connected to something traumatic in Kris' childhood, given the whole therapy motif of the fourth Egg room. That could hypothetically be the banishment of the previous Angel since it lead to Dess'... situation, so it's another potential connection. The Forgotten Man is (kind of) sometimes seen looking at us through windows and stuff, so you could kinda argue he's "watching over" Kris, if nothing else. The Forgotten Man is also... well, Forgotten, which for all we know may be what happens to the Angel if it gets banished. And both Noelle and the Man are heavily associated with easter eggs and video game mysteries in general, so there's a loose connection between our potential new Angel and the Man.
But these could easily be coincidences. There are some bigger pieces of evidence here. See, I said before that the Girl and the Cage were the only things that really provided a bunch of evidence for this theory. I lied. It's just that the other piece of evidence is kinda out there. Let's look at the Forgotten Man's CH3 appearance, and this particular story he tells.
Forgotten Man [CH3]: ONCE UPON A TIME, THE WHOLE WORLD LOOKED LIKE THIS.
DO YOU THINK SO?
[Prompt: Yes / No]
[If yes] REALLY, YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING SO ABSURD? / [If no] OF COURSE NOT. IT'S JUST A STORY AFTER ALL.
[If yes] I'M HAPPY TO HEAR IT. LET ME CONTINUE / [If no] NOW, LET ME CONTINUE...
WELL, THE WORLD CHANGED, SOCIETY WAS DEVELOPED.
THE EARTH WAS COVERED IN WATER, DINOSAURS APPEARED, AN ICE AGE.
HM... ACTUALLY, THERE ARE STILL DINOSAURS... IS IT MIXED UP?
IN ANY CASE, THIS ISLAND IS THE ONLY PLACE LEFT I CAN TALK.
Listen I feel like I'm going more and more insane the more I look at this damn dialogue, but there's a way you can spin this into Prophecy Loop evidence. Let me explain how I interpret these events he's describing:
-The whole world looked like this: Since the "place" in question is stylized like an old videogame and connected to Kris' childhood, I interpret this to mean "to you, the world used to look like this."
-The world changed, society was developed: Kris grows up, I guess.
-Dinosaurs appeared: Somehow I doubt this is about Alphys, so it may be referring to Susie entering Kris' life.
-The Earth was covered in water: Here we get to the Prophecy Loop stuff. See, there's an association in Deltarune between water and darkness. Darkness comes from Dark Fountains, Shadow Crystals "move like water in your hands" and probably come from the tears of the fallen star (note also that Titan Spawn "smell like rotten glass"), shadows slip off the Shadow Mantle "like water", the texture used in the GONER MAKER sequence is called DEPTH and is a picture of the ocean, Jevil talks about "Hell's roar bubbling from the depths", and there may be more associations I'm forgetting. So, the Earth getting covered in water could actually be an allegory for the Roaring, where it gets covered in Darkness.
-An ice age: The most speculative, but the idea is that Noelle has ice magic, so the Angel as a concept may be connected to "Ice Ages." This is especially likely because of the idea that the "light in your Soul" will still be "shining in the cold" even when "the shadows start to grow" from the lyrics of Don't Forget.
[Don't Forget]
When the light is running low
And the shadows start to grow
And the places that you know
Seem like fantasy
There's a light inside your soul
That's still shining in the cold
Shadows start to grow -> Roaring. Roaring + "Still shining in the cold" -> Roaring is cold.
Alternatively, Dess presumably had ice magic as well, so it could be related to her final actions as the Girl or something.
So, when you take it like that, what's it mean? At first, it kinda just feels like foreshadowing of the Prophecy. Not necessarily talking about a previous loop, just something that may happen in the future. However, the key line here is "there are still dinosaurs." The implication is that it's surprising there are still dinosaurs after the Ice Age, which naturally implies that the dinosaurs must come after the ice age, whatever that is. Which means if the way the Man originally tells it is mixed up, a "fixed" version could be:
The world looked "like this" (Kris' childhood).
The Earth is covered in water (old run Roaring).
An ice age (Angel and/or Dess make it snow).
Society developed (Kris grew up - this can go wherever btw).
Dinosaurs appeared (Susie shows up).
This would suggest a prior loop. The only reason I don't consider very strong is that it's so vague that you can take it many other ways. If Dess' death isn't actually related to the Prophecy, the "ice age" could be her death, and the Earth being covered in water could actually come after the dinosaurs, so Prophecy Loop can easily be argued around here.
But if the ice age is related to the old run, that could mean the Forgotten Man knows of the previous loop, at which point him being directly connected to it by being the Angel feels more likely.
And for the last piece of evidence, the one thing that made me decide this theory was substantial enough to mention, is this little passage from Noelle's blog in the Sweepstakes.
Egg blog post: A white egg showed up on my screen, but there was a message with it. "SPECIAL" [...]
The next day when I opened the game, the egg was gone, with a message that said it "left home due to happiness."
Usually the message is "(pet) left home due to sadness" and only happens because you neglected your pet. It's not supposed to happen because you were nice XD
One last thing!
The egg actually had a name but I don't remember what it was.
So, this egg is obviously connected to the Forgotten Man, down to Noelle forgetting the egg's name. And this egg leaves the world because it becomes happy. Does that remind you of someone?
The Angel also leaves the world when it becomes happy, when it meets its desire.
I'm actively losing my mind.
And you wanna know the craziest part? Forgotten Man as the old Angel already makes negative sense. And Gaster as the old Player, that thing I mentioned before as the best option we had, also makes negative sense. But if you take that negative logic and multiply against itself, you achieve positive speculative power, a Reverse Theorizing Technique if you will.
Because Gaster and the Forgotten Man have connections even if I don't believe they're the same person. The way they show up, their connections to Easter Eggs, idfk the egg in Papyrus' date scene??? And just like we and the current Angel might be connected, it would make sense for the old Angel and the old Player to have these connections as well.
????????
Okay look I've officially lost the thread. Let's pull it back. Do I believe the Forgotten Man is actually the old Angel? No. We need to go like nine levels of theorizing deep to actually reach that conclusion, the likelihood that I somehow managed to nail each and every prediction along the way is obscenely low. But hey, it's fun! Theorizing's fun and makes me happy so even if I'm wrong! I like making these insane ass connections! I swear I'm mentally stable!
... What do you mean this isn't even the most insane guess of the remaining old members of the Prophecy???
The Prince
Mr. Prince please take off the hood
Okay, so like, what do we know of the Prince? Well, they're probably male ("prince", not "royal heir" or "princess"), are a Darkner of importance (at least I assume they're not some random Guei or something), and (assuming it isn't a Ralsei specific thing) have fire magic. Additionally, from Catty's retelling we can potentially infer they have horns.
Catty [CH4 Start]: There's, like, these heroes, and they're like, SO cool.
They have like, swords and stuff?
And there's one with like, ummm, horns?
He's honestly SO cute.
I mean, there, like, aren't any pictures, but like...
Tbf the horn point is debatable because "there aren't any pictures," but I'm taking that's more about the cuteness than the very specific attribute of horns. She knew about the swords, if nothing else, so there's gotta be some descriptions there.
So, cool, fits Ralsei. He has horns, we see him use fire magic in the LightUp ACT against Balthizard, he's a prince and a Darkner of importance. The constant use of the hood in the panels is peculiar, but the relevance is debatable since Ms. Prophecy Breaker Susie is the one who asked Ralsei to remove it.
The first question is: Is it possible that Ralsei is the old Prince? The same way that Kris is also the old Cage?
Ralsei [Start of CH1 Dark World]: I've been waiting alone here...
Um... my whole life for you two to arrive.
Okay so no. We gotta find a different guy.
With it all on the table, though, there's really not many other people it fits. I mean, forgive me if I'm a little presumptuous, but I somehow doubt Lanino is the old Prince.
What a reasonable person would tell you at this point is that we likely haven't met the old Prince yet, even if Prophecy Loop is true. We have three chapters left, plenty of time to introduce this hypothetical character.
...However, I am actually insane. I think I've already proven that, at least. So there is a potential guess here.
Because if you're talking fire magic, "horns" and a figure hidden under clothes, there is one Dark World resident that could take up the mantle. In a very literal sense.
Hooh boy.
i'm not dignifying this with a proper title what in the hell am i talking about
(Allow me to ignore the FRIEND allegations for a bit, I'll address them later)
So, ERAM! That's what I'm calling this thing because it's the coolest name it has! What a guess!
Like I said, I'm only really confident on Dess as the old Girl and Kris as the old Cage (if Prophecy Loop is true at all, anyway), and I'm a lot shakier on Carol as the old Knight, maybe Gaster as the old Player and the Forgotten Man as the old Angel. But I will be genuinely shocked if ERAM as the old Prince ends up having any credence. It literally started from the observation that this thing has fire attacks, which really isn't strong at all. And while I brought up its sprite having horn-like things, it's very debatable whether those really are horns or if I'm hallucinating. The best point of the ones I mentioned is probably the fact we've only ever seen them hidden under the Shadow Mantle, the same way the Prince is always depicted wearing a cloak, and that's a pretty crazy reach as well. However, there is a little more to note here, so let me tap into the insanity a little more.
The main argument for this is, perhaps surprisingly, ERAM's strange amount of knowledge about the Weird Route. On a regular run, ERAM says this upon starting the fight:
Do you honestly think it'll get you what you want...?
... no, part of you is just... enjoying this, isn't it?
Oh, don't make that sour face.
I can see in the dark, you know!
However, in the Weird Route, two extra lines are added.
Do you honestly think it'll get you what you want...?
... no, part of you is just... enjoying this, isn't it?
The same part of you that enjoyed yesterday.
Knowing you could say it wasn't really you.
Oh, don't make that sour face.
I can see in the dark, you know!
This is noteworthy because ERAM is the only character who seems to be aware of the Weird Route events without being directly tied to them.
In my mind, there's two ways to explain how this happens. One, it could connect to the whole "I can see in the dark" thing, potentially implying ERAM possesses a higher degree of awareness of what goes on in different Dark Worlds than other Darkners. Two, perhaps ERAM is able to move through different Dark Worlds at will, and just so happened to be watching from the shadows when Noelle was getting stronger. And both of these possibilities are very real, because a certain other character displays these traits.
Ralsei [Start of CH2]: I felt a dark presence and hurried over!
Ralsei [Start of CH3]: I felt a dark presence and hurried here...
And when I said before that ERAM was the only person who knew of the Weird Route without being involved in it, well, I kinda lied. Again. Because Ralsei's dialogue also changes.
Ralsei [CH3, Ask how Ralsei's doing -> Go to Festival with Noelle]: Noelle...?
Um, I'm sure if Susie was with you, too...
Noelle would probably really appreciate it!
I'm sure the three of you would have a lot of fun!
Umm, if it's... the three of you.
Ralsei [CH3 Weird Route, same place]: N... Noelle?
Kris, I...
I think that's...
...
A bad choice.
I mean, I'm sorry! A bad choice to, make alone.
Noelle, might want to go with Susie...
I hope you can... figure out a nice solution!
This isn't even the only example, just the first one I grabbed. So, a question arises. Did Ralsei figure out what's going on by seeing how Noelle and Kris acted, or is he using his weird "dark presence intuition" thing to "sense" that something's off there? Because if it's the latter, if Ralsei can "see in the dark" in the same way that ERAM somehow "saw" what Kris did in the Cyber World, that's a clear connection between the new Prince and ERAM.
To expand on this idea of ERAM possessing strange knowledge, you know how Ralsei is very aware of the Player? Which means we could potentially argue the Prince is just generally aware of meta elements? Well... ERAM appears to ostensibly be working with Kris, and yet still kills them if we lose the fight.
ERAM [After defeat]: Haha... well, enough of that! We both have work to do!
Because of that, you could argue it's possible ERAM knows about resets. There are fights in the game where you don't die on a game over (Susie-Lancer tag team, Hammer of Justice, Knight), so it's entirely possible to beat Kris without killing them. And yet, ERAM still does it, potentially implying ERAM knows Kris will come back safely even if the Soul breaks.
The issue with this as Prince evidence is that... well, Kris had a save file. They probably know about resets, and thus ERAM might have learnt about it from them. You can actually use the same "working with Kris but still kills them" argument while looking at the Knight knife barrage right before the start of the Second Sanctuary to argue for the Knight knowing about resets (which I do believe but that's besides the point), and the Knight is certainly not a Prince.
However, as I said, it might not be vague omniscience explaining ERAM's knowledge, it could also be inter-Dark World travel. In fact, you could argue that ERAM must have inter-Dark World travel no matter what, as they apparently managed to steal the Shadow Mantle from Seam before the TV World opened. That means ERAM was in Castle Town to steal the Mantle, then traveled to TV World mysteriously.
Seam [CH2 Talk]: ... Unless you use the power of the Shadow Mantle.
Here, it may look like an old scrap of cloth, but...
... eh?
I can't find it. Did someone... take it...?
Again, that also connects to Ralsei directly, but there's an even deeper connection. Because if you're talking about someone with a strange amount of knowledge who is capable of easily traveling between different areas, then the Prince's hood starts looking very familiar.
Listen we gotta address this at some point. I get that maybe this is just how Toby wants cloaks like these to look like, but why would the CH4 panels bring attention to it if it means nothing?
What I'm suggesting is that the Prince's cloak looks like Undertale's Riverperson's because they're connected by their strange knowledge ("man who speaks in hands", "man from another world", "the Angel is coming", "the song from the sea," etc. for Riverperson, all of what ERAM and Ralsei know for them) and their ability to "fast travel." You can even connect the fact Riverperson moves through... well, a river, to the idea that darkness in Deltarune works like water, which I mentioned before. Fuck, you can connect this to (as silly as the name is) toilet theory, the idea that the sewers of Hometown have some kind of Dark World connection that allows for fast travel between Dark Worlds. "Fast travel through water that a cloaked person uses," what a peculiar concept!
I will mention, btw, there's a very strong counterpoint to this. The fact that Lancer and Rouxls also seem to possess Dark World fast travel. Last I checked, Kris and Susie never took them out of Castle Town before CH3, and yet they show up in TV World all the same. So if these two can do it, it's very possible Dark World fast travel just isn't that important, and it's something Darkners can just do.
That said, the counterpoint to the counterpoint is that Lancer might be able to do it because he is technically a "Prince from the Dark" even if he lacks the horns of the actual Prince from Prophecy, and Rouxls might be able to do it by the nature of being the Rules Card. Or Kris just brought them over during the hand washing scene. Everything we know about this mysterious ability to go from one Dark World to another without going through the Light World is very iffy in general, so take it as you will.
As a final piece of potential evidence before we talk about what this could mean, note the vending machine in the Star changing room. From this machine, you can buy TV Slop, and a "SMILE." This option disappears after completing the Sword Route. You could technically argue it might be ERAM smiling, as the main things that change between the start of the third game and the end of the Sword Route are Ramb and ERAM's presences in the Dark World, and Ramb isn't in the vending machine. And what is the SMILE option labeled?
Always at your humble service.
A very Ralsei-like line, to be sure.
So, we have the theory, and the evidence, regardless of how shaky it is. What could this mean for the story?
Well, note how ERAM is pleased when they see Kris being violent. This is a clear contrast to Ralsei, who generally prefers peace.
ERAM [After defeat]: There! That's what I wanted to see!
Flickering red, like pretty little flames...
Your eyes can't hide it, Kris. Without play...
The knife grows dull.
The idea that "the knife grows dull" implies the knife was sharp at some point, so ERAM has seen Kris being violent. Going with the idea of Kris having been through the Prophecy's events at some point or another, that could be referring to Kris helping Dess increase her LOVE for the Final Tragedy. Of course, that has the issue that ERAM talks about the knife growing dull even if you've been doing a violent route, but, uh. I don't know if there's any way to make the line make sense in that case, unless you mean Kris fighting alone specifically is what prevents the blade from going dull, for some reason.
What does this mean? It would mean that ERAM works as a sort of thematic opposite of Ralsei, a character foil if you will.
The Prophecy requires violence for LOVE to make its way to the Girl, right? That's why Ralsei believes being peaceful could help change its course. By that logic, then, ERAM wishing for violence is them going along with the Prophecy. This would set up an interesting conflict if they ever meet, where ERAM believes, for one reason or another, that violence and continuing the Prophecy cycle is good, while Ralsei wishes to fight it. But of course, we're reaching the point where this is more straight up fanfic than theory, so perhaps I should leave it here for now.
So, with it all together, how likely is ERAM as the old Prince looking? Well... not very. A lot of these points are kinda fucking insane, and I'm assigning to the Third Hero a lot from Ralsei's abilities that may very well be related to Ralsei himself and not his status as the Prince. Even with things we know about the Prince from the Prophecy itself, the fire and the horns and the cloak, ERAM fitting could easily be a coincidence. It's sort of a demonic entity, no shit it has fire attacks and horn-like things on their sprite, and it's a mystery, so it makes sense to hide its form. But, if Prophecy Loop is true, and we've already met the old Prince, ERAM would be my first guess as to who they are.
Finally, to address the pink and yellow elephant I said I would, what if ERAM is just FRIEND? I'm not getting into it because it's not really relevant to the larger theory, but it is true that there's a lot of connections there. And, like, I guess it wouldn't be completely impossible for FRIEND to be the old Prince, but there are a lot of Prophecy segments that read weird if they are, and certain things about them that don't exactly fit the idea of a more or less regular Darkner. Like, the general assumption is that FRIEND is a cat and their tail is the "tail of hell", and that Dess and Kris followed them before whatever happened happened, right? So, what, Ralsei is secretly hiding that he's a demon or something?
Ralsei [Upon equipping Jevilstail]: I'm a good devil, OK?
... Th-That doesn't count it's just because of the item! I cannot be going this fucking insane!!! Next I'll tell you that the "pointed tail of hell" might be a scarf and that's the connection!!! Don't believe my lies I'm actively losing my mind!!!
To actually make a point that makes sense: I'm not that convinced ERAM is FRIEND, frankly. And by the way, yes, there are "new run" Prophecy panels that may be talking about FRIEND. But that can easily be explained. If the "tail of hell" led Kris and Dess to the bunker, well, maybe the "tail of hell" will also lead Kris and Susie to the bunker. In other words, FRIEND is not too important for this particular theory. Which is good because I have no clue what the hell their deal is.
Closing Argument
I know that was a lot, so let's do a quick recap of everything we talked about in this post. Of course, some things are more important and likely for the theory than others, so here's how we're gonna do this.
In regular text, the main arguments of Prophecy Loop, as well as a bit of dramatic flair. If you're gonna walk out of this post believing anything, believe this. Of course, it's still a theory and may very well be wrong, but if anything in this post is correct, it's likely the stuff written like this.
In italics, sub-theories. Things that fit pretty well with the theory, but aren't necessary for it to function.
In italics and bold, insane reaches I'm making just to fill in the gaps, which I suspect to most likely be proven wrong even if the rest ends up being accurate.
-There is a story whispered among shadows, foretold by space and time. A story of three Heroes which take arms against a Knight to banish the Angel's Heaven. Most believe this to be a Prophecy of one particular point in history.
-However, in reality, the Prophecy never "ends." It repeats. Whenever an Angel is banished, whenever a Knight is defeated, new ones take their place. And just like before, three new Heroes appear to stop the end of the world once more.
-Meet Carol, the oldest Knight we have knowledge of. She raises her blackened sword, and works to bring forth the Roaring. However, she will not go unopposed.
-In an alternate world, a scientist investigates a darkness powerful enough to generate negative photon readings. Unfortunately, he falls into his creation, and becomes shattered across time and space. Due to this event, he reaches the world of Deltarune. But to interact with it, WD Gaster needs a Vessel to inhabit, becoming the "Player."
-This Vessel is named "Kris." They are as colorless as the rest of Gaster's followers, but their existence grows beyond the "Player's" design by the love of those around them.
-After a playful early childhood, the "Player" eventually reaches Kris, and they become the Cage with human parts. They begin learning to live with this new foreign entity inside them, getting a birdcage to contain the Soul whenever it gets too annoying, and occasionally playing piano when they get control of their body back.
-But the Cage has a destiny, to fight the Roaring alongside the Girl. And that is none other than their dear deer friend December Holiday. She leads her younger friend into the dark, using Kris' shining heart as the ark to shine them the way.
-There, they meet the Prince of the Dark.
-This is ERAM, a being made with knowledge of the Prophecy, and the power to wade through the dark like a ferryperson travels atop a river's stream. They know their role, to help the Heroes earn the LOVE needed to fulfill their destiny. They need to get stronger. And so, they encourage Dess and Kris to find enjoyment in fighting.
-LOVE, as in Level of Violence, finds its way to the Girl. Dess becomes an extremely strong fighter.
-In the background, Gaster in some way leads a certain Man to earn power of his own. This Man reaches the absolute, and turns into an unrecognizable eldritch being who is unnerving to look at. The soon to be Forgotten Man becomes the Angel.
-The final showdown begins between the Heroes, the Knight and/or the Angel. At world's end, the Heroes are incapacitated one by one. The Cage kneels in silence, defeated lays the Prince.
-And last was the Girl. At last, was the Girl. She stands alone, facing her inescapable fate. The final Prophecy. The story's end. When all hope is lost for the tale, the Final Tragedy unveils. To save the worlds, there is only one way. The Girl turns on the light, and the story starts again. Only then, will the worlds be saved.
-The Knight is defeated. The Angel, banished, finally meets with its desire. It leaves the world due to happiness. But in exchange, Dess' body becomes distorted and irreparable, and she turns into the new Knight.
-Of course, Carol and Kris aren't too happy about this. Kris struggles to live, both due to the grief of the loss of Dess, and the lack of strings making it hard for them to function. And Carol begins obsessing over the Soul potentially able to drive the darkness back, to "fix" her daughter perhaps. ERAM is satisfied. Gaster feels ???
-But the Prophecy must begin anew, for the story was never finished. In destroying the Girl, it consumed the "writer" whole, after all.
-Gaster contacts us to become the new Player, the one with the power to drive the darkness back. He originally means for the Vessel we create to be our Cage, but something goes wrong. For some reason, someone decides Kris will be the Cage once more. And so it was.
-With this, a new Prince of the Dark is born. Ralsei, shaped after the Cage's brother for Angel knows what reasons. However, perhaps because of this connection to Asriel, perhaps not, this Prince wishes to fight back against the Prophecy. There can't just be one ending, predetermined by fate. The Girl won't fall to violence, Ralsei will ensure it.
-And he's in luck, because the Girl this time around is none other than Susie. Different from what the Prophecy expects, and fully ready to ignore what people want her to be like.
-The events of Deltarune unfold. The new Heroes go through the Prophecy, and for a while, everything aligns. But as Susie learns more of the Prophecy, as Ralsei becomes more confident, their burning desire to fight fate itself grows into an inferno.
-In some way, the Player causes Noelle to reach/almost reach the absolute, becoming or coming close to ascending into the status of Angel.
-The final showdown begins. But this time, the Heroes won't accept the hand fate lent them.
-Kris, the "Cage", born only as a Vessel for someone else to interact with the world, has grown past their creator's initial intentions. They are their own person now, with their own desires and skills, and they would really like their hands back, thank you. They need to play the piano for Susie and Ralsei to hear, after all.
-Ralsei, the "Prince", born only as a guide and servant to the lightners he accompanies, a simple tutorial for violence and nothing else, has grown beyond a simple shadow on the wall. He is Kris and Susie's friend, dang it, he means something to them, and he will make sure everyone's still around at the end to enjoy the friendship in full.
-And Susie. Susie, who everyone expected to fall to violence like every other Girl before her. The rebellious and aggressive and lost and lost and lost Girl, expected to fail to write the ending, expected to just allow everything to go on forever. She will show them wrong. She will take that pen of hope she carries, and will finally put an end to the cycle of grief and violence. I don't know how yet, but I'm not worried. I trust Susie's ideas.
-The Prophecy, as a story, has been retold many times. It is the Lord of the Hammer, it is Dragon Blazers. It is the story of Dess and Kris, sung in Raise up your Bat and Don't Forget. And it is the story of Deltarune, of Kris and Susie and Ralsei growing alongside one another. For years, people failed to write an ending. The story consumed the authors, and so it just got retold and retold and retold.
-Until now. Now, there will be only one ending. And it will be one written by the greatest Heroes of all time: the $!$? Squad.
Okay so that was more dramatic than it needed to be probably, but I needed to cover up the theory in narrative flair to hide how nonsensical parts of it are lmao. I'd say I hope it wasn't too cringy, but honestly I don't think I care if it was.
In any case, some closing thoughts. This isn't the most likely theory I've ever proposed, but I also don't think it's my most insane one. Well, the main idea at least, I don't know about all the bold and italics parts. The themes of stories being retold in different ways, the Gerson foreshadowing that it might have to be Susie to finally give an ending to the story, and all the other shit going on with Kris and Dess are a solid enough foundation for me to put this out there for peer review, if nothing else.
... Angel above this was meant to be on the shorter end of my posts. What's worse is that it genuinely might be. I just kept finding shit to talk about, this game's too fun to theorize about ToT
What do you all think? Am I cooking? Am I burning down the entire kitchen? Have I completely lost the plot? All very possible, of course! In any case, I hope you enjoyed reading my mad ramblings, regardless of whether I've made you genuinely consider the possibility of a looping prophecy or not. If you made it this far, you deserve your own Prophecy panel! Hope you get a cool one! Anyway, see ya'!
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