Orsan

Just a guy. I like puzzling out lore

[orsan1070]

In-Depth Dex Dive Launch

After the cladogram my next pokemon lore project has dropped: In-Depth Dex Dives!

Orsan – Medium

Read writing from Orsan on Medium. Obsessed with Pokémon lore and biology

They're weekly articles going over everything we know and can infer about individual pokemon species/lines, drawing from every canon source possible!

two are up now! zorua/zoroark and porygon line. going to aim for one a week on wednesdays after this!

[cartographers-office]

The Ecosystem of Plack Beach

Plack Beach is, in my opinion, one of the most memorable locations in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. Many areas in the game already have a strange theme to their aesthetics, but Plack Beach's giant-teeth-covered sands are so unique, nothing else has ever matched it. Today, I would like to take a closer look at this location and speculate on its creatures, so join me on this dental and marine journey!

Teeth, coral or both?

For the longest time, I never really thought about the giant teeth that are found all throughout this area. Maybe they come from a long dead giant race? Unlikely. Or they're just teeth-shaped rocks? Boring. But I think I have a more interesting answer.

Real teeth are covered in a hard tissue called enamel, which is primarily composed of calcium, and it protects its softer interior. Corals, specifically hard corals, are marine animals known for protecting their own soft interior with a hard exoskeleton also primarily made of calcium. So what if the giant teeth of Plack Beach are a colony of coral? They're found extensively around this marine environment, and could reasonably also be made of a calcium-based material. Perhaps this hypothetical coral evolved to produce an exoskeleton out of something chemically closer to teeth!

Building off from this, we can then surmise that, like real life coral, this teeth coral acts as the fundamental base for this ecosystem, providing shelter and food for all manner of life.

Pokeys and Viruses

Toothies are a species of tall Pokey-like creature composed of stacked teeth. Their nature is terribly unclear, but under this coral hypthesis, we have a few options. Maybe they are the coral creatures themselves. I find that unlikely, because most of the coral we see is scattered around, not stacked. Alternatively, they could be a highly-specialized species of Pokey which burrows inside teeth coral and stacks them up to protect its long body as it grows. Or maybe they're actually the spirit of a Pokey possessing a set of teeth, similar to the undead Skellokeys from Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. Funny how these are also calcium-based, being skeletons themselves.

Another creature which takes refuge inside teeth are the blue viruses occasionally seen alongside Toothies. As stand-ins for the bacteria that cause cavities, it makes sense that they would live in and potentially feed on the "teeth coral", causing the many holes we can observe on them. In nature, this interaction is known as parasitism, since one of the species lives in and causes harm to the other.

As mentioned, Toothies can spit out blue Viruses to help defend them when they are knocked down. Given they help them, the Viruses could be in a mutualistic reloationship with the Toothy. They can hide from predators by living inside them, in exchange for protecting the Toothy when it is in danger. I don't think the Viruses feed on the Toothy, since it is shown to easily spit them out when it wants to, and it has no signs of cavities on its body.

The dentists of the beach

Pendrils are small penguins with drill-like beaks which can be found on Plack Beach. While a penguin in a tropical beach might seem unusual, most real penguins, such as the Humboldt penguin, don't actually live in arctic regions, instead living on temperate beaches and rocky shores.

Pendrils are capable of using their beaks to burrow in and swim through the sand. Given the teeth theme, their beaks seem evidently designed after dentist drills. Perhaps they also them to dig into teeth, looking for food such as the Viruses, who in turn sometimes protect themselves by hiding in Toothies.

The last (new) creatures to be found at Plack Beach are Drillbit Crabs. As their name implies, they appear to be a species of hermit crab wearing drill bits. With these drills, they could also hunt for Viruses inside teeth. It's not known where they get these drill bits from, but due to their similar colors, it is possible they take them from Pendrils.

Maybe Pendrils can shed their beaks? Alternatively, Drillbits take the role of necrophages who feed on dead Pendrils and then take their beaks, but who knows. A little morbid, but it is what it is. As for why/how their drills are so much larger? I don't know. It could be that they go for unseen larger Pendrils, or that their drills come from something else entirely unrelated to them, or maybe their size is a gameplay abstraction so they can work as enemies. No answer seems satisfying to me.

Chuboombas can also be found here, but I can't think of anything for them. They're likely just on their way to and from Cavi Cape, so they don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Also talking about what is essentially a type of Goomba as if it were a wild animal is... weird. The same goes for Kuzzle and Chakron, two characters who can also be found in this area.

With that said, here's a quick graphic illustrating all the different interactions I mentioned so far. Putting this together gave me a greater appreciation for this area, and I hope it was an interesting journey for you, so thank you for reading!

[orsan1070]

Isn’t it weird how Pokemon Eggs aren’t actually eggs (like, irl eggs), and this info is relegated to two minor NPCs and is never brought up outside of that?

I feel like this is almost never brought up, so I imagine many just don’t know about it. We have eight different Pokemon families confirmed/implied to reproduce through non-Egg means (two of them, Rabsca and Blissey, even have non-Egg eggs), and we can put regular eggs on sandwiches and in curry. Meanwhile, according to this, Eggs– the white and green ones– are “cradles”-- and this has been the intent since the beginning! In a 1999 strategy guide for Gold and Silver, there was a section with an explanation of Eggs by Professor Elm, they’re called plant-based cradles! (unfortunately no scans of this exist online, and I’m going off a Japanese blog post about the book…)

The implications of this are weird. Where do Eggs come from actually? Why can almost any Pokemon produce them? I dunno! There’s a lot of discussion to be had about this! (Eggs aren’t exclusive to the Day Care, either– the Larvesta Egg in Black and White was found in the Relic Castle!)

[saphsick]

my sweet boi Oranguru

[orsan1070]

Canon-Accurate Full Pokémon Cladogram

Yep! It took months of work (and months of waiting for Champions to give me the new menu sprites for the Mega Evolutions. And then it didn’t even do that.) I know others have done this before, but every single take I found had something I felt was disproved by canon or flat-out didn’t make sense, so I’ve been working on my own take!

This site made me scale this down a BUNCH to even upload this. It’s 9000 pixels wide, when my scaled-down-for-Discord version was 24000 (which didn't embed, but did upload). The full quality image can be seen on my GitHub at github.com/Orsan1070/cladogrammaker/blob/main/finalimage.jpg. (An even higher quality version– with all HOME menu sprites at full resolution– is present too, as output.png.)

Justifications, my general philosophy, and credits can be found at https://bit.ly/4ctVS5v. If you see something weird here you don’t understand, please check there first. However, if it isn’t there, feel free to ask me! I’m always willing to make edits or explain my reasoning! I fully expect multiple branches of the tree to change drastically with Winds & Waves’s release beyond just slotting in new Pokémon.

Midway through (after finishing the mammals), I realized hand-drawing it was obnoxious and was taking most of the time. Also, I’m not an artist. So, instead, I wrote some Python code making use of GraphViz to generate my own images automatically based on an input file! That code, located in github.com/Orsan1070/cladogrammaker, is free to use (with credit)!

[crowscadence]

Screw getting home through needlessly complicated riddles, I’m busy romancing Eugene

[crowscadence]

Is the last tag optional

[bleu-delphinium]

Woe, more reborn text posts upon ye

[orsan1070]

i love working on my big pokemon cladogram. looking at this section never fails to make me laugh

(I'm just writing up the justification doc and waiting for consistent icons to exist for the z-a megas to share the whole thing. tree of life containing EVERY pokemon.)

[oncillamoltres]

wait i should do something with the unown's radio wave communication now that i actually know anything about radio waves

actually i should do more with the unown in general. connie has pet interdimensional reality warping aliens and they're just kind of There

[oncillamoltres]

guy who's team is unown and elgyem and his hobby is interfering with broadcasts

[oncillamoltres]

(elgyem context)

[oncillamoltres]

and dedenne!

[orsan1070]

also:

Starmie! ("At the center of its body is a red core that sends mysterious radio signals into the night sky.")

Dusknoir! ("The antenna on its head captures radio waves from the world of spirits that command it to take people there.")

And Magnezone! ("As it zooms through the sky, this Pokémon seems to be receiving signals of unknown origin while transmitting signals of unknown purpose.") (this is very similar to Starmie but doesn't explicitly say radio. A Magneton dex entry says it makes radio waves though, albeit not for communication, and some dex entries attribute the signals it receives to space similar to Starmie)

[pokeonomy]

First Definitive Grouping!

Credit to @orsan1070 for inspiring this post by pointing out that there are easier things for me to base this around.

so you know how I said that I wouldn't be depending on types for taxonomical classification? well, funny story is that bug type Pokémon actually do share significant portions of their body structures, and that there is one particular and extremely obvious grouping that can be used to get the ball rolling.

Family: Viridoptera

Proposed Members: Caterpie, wurmple, scatterbug, venonat, snom, larvesta

Definition

Ancestrally arboreal Pokemon that begin life as small larvae with six appendages and undergo a dramatic change before adulthood, at which point they gain round or triangle-shaped, pigmented wings, a body consisting of two or three segments, and zero to six appendages.

Common Traits: Many Viridopterans exhibit compound eyes at some stage in development. Many also have scaled bodies made from pressed hairs, and many exhibit hair in addition to these scales.

Name: "Wings of Viridian", named for the Viridian Forest of the Kanto region. Viridian Forest is a popular site for watching Butterfree and is heavily associated with a key member of the family. These species also show traits clearly related to arboreal ancestry.

Reasoning

Real-life bugs and moths have fairly similar traits and are accepted to be in the same superfamily. The classification here is extremely similar to the classification lepidoptera (I even stole some of the name). Many lepidopterans (such as Butterfree and Venonat) specifically describe scales in their Pokedex entries, which I can assume to be analogous to those of lepidopterans in real life.

Explanations

Caterpie, Scatterbug, Wurmple: These closely fit the definition described above. Caterpie and Scatterbug are close enough in their biologies to potentially belong to the same genus (both beginning life without compound eyes and ending with compound eyes, their larvae having three pairs of legs, their adult forms having two round wings with colorful patterns and four frong-facing appendages each, both having dust they emit for survival, and so on). Wurmple also fits this definition, but Beautifly and Dustox are dissimilar enough from Butterfree and Vivillon to constitute somewhat of a seperation taxonomically. Beautifly's proboscus and general body proportion are different, and Dustox is completely distinct in terms of body shape while continuing to have the other features listed.

Venonat: Venonat does not chrysalize, but it does still undergo a major transformation in evolution- going from a furry, arboreal form to one capable of flight. It shares hair and scales with other members of the family. Strangely, it has compound eyes in its adolescence that seem to fuse when it enters adulthood. Venomoth is likely closely related to Butterfree, as both use similar poisonous powders to help trap prey. However, because Venonat do not chrysalize- a major part of development for the above species- I do not think they are as close as Caterpie and Scatterbug.

Snom and Larvesta: Snom is clearly intended to be a larval moth, and Larvesta is literally called such. Neither chrysalizes in evolution, but both still undergo massive changes when maturing. Frosmoth, however, has fewer than usual front-facing appendages, while Volcarona has an unusual number of wings among its peers. Even still, I feel comfortable keeping the two in this group because they have all other necessary characteristics. They do not seem particularly closely related to one another, though, as their body structures show significant difference.

Edge Cases

Burmy: Part of a group of Pokemon I have no choice but to classify as 'floaters', Burmy and Wormadan present a strange conondrum in that their larval stages can fly without wings. Am I assume this relates them more closely to a line line Pineco? Or should I assume these are merely chrysalises that only metamorphose in female Burmies? I lean toward the latter, as none of Burmy nor Wormadan's entries indicate the Pokemon floats as typically seen in its depictions.

Surskit: It does undergo metamorphosis. Masquerain does have triangle-shaped wings, and it doeshave a two-segmented body. However, the movement of its wings is unlike other Viridopterans in that they flap perpendicular to its body rather than parallel, similar to a Yanma's. Surskit is also does not fit any other Veridopteran bodytype, which leads me to indicate it is not part of this family.

Cutiefly: Doesn't metamorphose. May revisit later.

Slither Wing: Reports of Pokemon in Paldea from the distant past have me rethinking Larvesta's placement, but I've been told by a contact at Naranja that these Pokemon are called Paradox Pokemon for a reason. Many of them are, of course, Paradoxes- things that exist without explanation. As such, I don't intend to classify Paradox Pokemon in the same way.

[pokemonblack3white3]

is laid-back a word you would use to describe kieran

yes

no

Voting ended onAug 4, 2025

[pokemonblack3white3]

General consensus

[hamofjustice]

[orsan1070]

Ok so this struck me as odd so I decided to check the Japanese.

Disclaimer I don't speak Japanese, but according to the text dump this blurb is:

ブルーベリー学園に通っている　生徒のひとり。 のんびりした性格で　ゼイユとは　実の姉弟。 憧れの相手に勝つため　血のにじむような努力をした。

The specific word for 'laid-back' is のんびり (romanized as 'nonbiri')

Which can mean carefree (which is already more fitting for postgame Kieran than laid-back) but also seems to be able to mean "free of obligations". that's a MUCH better description of postgame Kieran (again i don't speak Japanese, this is gleaned from Wiktionary. if anyone has any more specific insights feel free to tack on)

Overall seems to be at least partially a localization slip-up. Masters has been having more and more of those lately. (Between accidentally implying multiple Ride Braviary in Hisui, messing up the 'Paradoxes are from alt-timelines' thing AGAIN, etc.)

[greylittlebird-deactivated20250]

I don’t understand why people who cannot accept any moral grayness or complexity decide to join fandoms for the most emotionally complex stories and then try to shame everyone there who actually is able to understand the material.

[type-blaze0]

Okay, I thought about it a little bit too hard, and I think that cyclizar and Heliolisk share a common ancestor.

They're both very fast, normal-dual-type, highly energetic lizards. They both have frills and neck sacks used as combination functional organs and display features, have a dark tail tip, and originate from wide open and sunny terrain.

My theory is that kiridon lostIts fighting type for normal over time, becoming less aggressive, and then split into two different pokemon, one gaining the electric type and sun-seeking behavior, the other retaining normal/dragon typing and its physical nature.

And then if you really want to go nuts with it, they had a successful hybridization where the normal types were recessive, and it became an electric dragon, eventually either becoming miridon, or the creature that miridon is based on

[orsan1070]

Don't forget that paradoxes are not actually from the past and future, they're from alternate timelines. Koraidon isn't a real ancestor of Cyclizar.

That said, outside of that, I do like this idea! Personally, I place Heliolisk closer to Toxtricity, personally, since they're both bipedal and use neck features to generate electricity-- coloration is a little weaker, in my opinion, and I think Cyclizar is all in all more Sceptile-esque (only two reptile pokemon to shed and regrow their tails)-- but I do like this idea too. Kinda wish there was an easy way to have it related to both, but I don't really think there is

[type-blaze0]

The fun thing about differing headcanons is that you can have different evolutionary trees. My reasoning was based off of stats, physical appearance, temperament, and geology.

I reason that the electric sacks that heliolisk stars it's energy in fused with the frill to become cyclizar's wheel-like pouch under its neck.

Since he helio is most often found in desert regions, you could come to the conclusion that the first mutation would be its ability becoming solar power, in which case, it began to become specially oriented in order to make more use out of the ability, especially with the paired use of solar beam to fight off grass types. I do not have an exclamation for the electric type, it might be a remnant of an inbetween state between proto cyclisk and heliolisk, possibly even the same pokemon that split into toxtricity.

Cyclzar's prominence in open grasslands however, leads it to encounter more electric rodents, hyper-aggressive grass pokemon, water pokemon in interlacing rivers it might drink from, and the occasional migrating fire type, which would lead to the dragon type remaining useful

While it is possible that it is a convergent evolution, the amount of convergence required leads me to believe that it would be a separation from a common ancestor, rather than evolving towards common traits, both species are lizards that use their energy in bursts, easily domesticated by humans, of historic and cultural importance (palda's riding culture, Galer's desert ruins), and have a high speed stat.

[orsan1070]

Can I ask what about those two you specifically think is too close to converge? Heliolisk's neck frill and Cyclizar's neck sac kinda have nothing in common outside of being on the neck, and there are multiple other lizards with neck frills between Inteleon and Toxtricity (the former of whom has an actual frill, as opposed to a sac like Cyclizar).

(also i wouldnt include cultural importance, lol. that's not exactly a biological feature)

I definitely agree that they're *related*, I'm just not sure I follow your reasoning as to why these two specifically are more related than Inteleon, Toxtricity, and Sceptile

(personally i think this *may* be a difference in philosophy-- I don't tend to view abilities or types as an innate, uh, thing. pokemon types are shown to be mutable, and abilities naturally arise out of biology. if anything, i think the development of electricity generation via neck area is what's too specific to be convergent. then again, three independent fire-type monkeys.)

[type-blaze0]

It might partially be due to miri's fusion of function, where it's electrical storage pouch also serves to boost its ground speed.

I didn't mean that any one trait was too similar, rather that it had too great a number of traits that appear to be diverging of each other, such as using there "pokemon power" for lack of better term, to increase their running speed past what their biology would suggest they are capable of.

Cyclzar appears to have remnants of the cheek pouch warning spots.

Both pokemon make use of bipedal and quadrupedal locomotion.

I am not arguing that toxicity is not a close relative of heliolisk, my theory is that heliolisk is as closely related to the 'dons as cyclzar is.

I myself am not a researcher, but I do think this theory is worth an investigation.

( Also yeah we probably have different philosophies, but as long as I get to nerd out about these lizards, I'm happy to keep the conversation going)

[orsan1070]

Oh. Well, they are equally as related to Koraidon and Miraidon... in that they aren't.

In Indigo Disk, at the Crystal Pool, the AI professor says this:

"I am researching methods to catch Pokémon that live in different timelines, so I might transport them to the present day in my own timeline."

This was also always the case in the original Japanese-- the AI professor directly said the Paradoxes came from other timelines in the Zero Lab.

Paradoxes... aren't actually relatives of the Pokémon we know. They're alternate timeline counterparts. This is why Paradoxes like Brute Bonnet make no sense on an evolution tree and why some Paradoxes are robots and not biological.

[type-blaze0]

The crystal pool professor is the real one, not AI?

[orsan1070]

oops, mistyped that (was thinking about the zero lab quote). my point still stands though-- both real and ai say they're from alternate timelines

[type-blaze0]

Okay, I thought about it a little bit too hard, and I think that cyclizar and Heliolisk share a common ancestor.

They're both very fast, normal-dual-type, highly energetic lizards. They both have frills and neck sacks used as combination functional organs and display features, have a dark tail tip, and originate from wide open and sunny terrain.

My theory is that kiridon lostIts fighting type for normal over time, becoming less aggressive, and then split into two different pokemon, one gaining the electric type and sun-seeking behavior, the other retaining normal/dragon typing and its physical nature.

And then if you really want to go nuts with it, they had a successful hybridization where the normal types were recessive, and it became an electric dragon, eventually either becoming miridon, or the creature that miridon is based on

[orsan1070]

Don't forget that paradoxes are not actually from the past and future, they're from alternate timelines. Koraidon isn't a real ancestor of Cyclizar.

That said, outside of that, I do like this idea! Personally, I place Heliolisk closer to Toxtricity, personally, since they're both bipedal and use neck features to generate electricity-- coloration is a little weaker, in my opinion, and I think Cyclizar is all in all more Sceptile-esque (only two reptile pokemon to shed and regrow their tails)-- but I do like this idea too. Kinda wish there was an easy way to have it related to both, but I don't really think there is

[type-blaze0]

The fun thing about differing headcanons is that you can have different evolutionary trees. My reasoning was based off of stats, physical appearance, temperament, and geology.

I reason that the electric sacks that heliolisk stars it's energy in fused with the frill to become cyclizar's wheel-like pouch under its neck.

Since he helio is most often found in desert regions, you could come to the conclusion that the first mutation would be its ability becoming solar power, in which case, it began to become specially oriented in order to make more use out of the ability, especially with the paired use of solar beam to fight off grass types. I do not have an exclamation for the electric type, it might be a remnant of an inbetween state between proto cyclisk and heliolisk, possibly even the same pokemon that split into toxtricity.

Cyclzar's prominence in open grasslands however, leads it to encounter more electric rodents, hyper-aggressive grass pokemon, water pokemon in interlacing rivers it might drink from, and the occasional migrating fire type, which would lead to the dragon type remaining useful

While it is possible that it is a convergent evolution, the amount of convergence required leads me to believe that it would be a separation from a common ancestor, rather than evolving towards common traits, both species are lizards that use their energy in bursts, easily domesticated by humans, of historic and cultural importance (palda's riding culture, Galer's desert ruins), and have a high speed stat.

[orsan1070]

Can I ask what about those two you specifically think is too close to converge? Heliolisk's neck frill and Cyclizar's neck sac kinda have nothing in common outside of being on the neck, and there are multiple other lizards with neck frills between Inteleon and Toxtricity (the former of whom has an actual frill, as opposed to a sac like Cyclizar).

(also i wouldnt include cultural importance, lol. that's not exactly a biological feature)

I definitely agree that they're *related*, I'm just not sure I follow your reasoning as to why these two specifically are more related than Inteleon, Toxtricity, and Sceptile

(personally i think this *may* be a difference in philosophy-- I don't tend to view abilities or types as an innate, uh, thing. pokemon types are shown to be mutable, and abilities naturally arise out of biology. if anything, i think the development of electricity generation via neck area is what's too specific to be convergent. then again, three independent fire-type monkeys.)

[type-blaze0]

It might partially be due to miri's fusion of function, where it's electrical storage pouch also serves to boost its ground speed.

I didn't mean that any one trait was too similar, rather that it had too great a number of traits that appear to be diverging of each other, such as using there "pokemon power" for lack of better term, to increase their running speed past what their biology would suggest they are capable of.

Cyclzar appears to have remnants of the cheek pouch warning spots.

Both pokemon make use of bipedal and quadrupedal locomotion.

I am not arguing that toxicity is not a close relative of heliolisk, my theory is that heliolisk is as closely related to the 'dons as cyclzar is.

I myself am not a researcher, but I do think this theory is worth an investigation.

( Also yeah we probably have different philosophies, but as long as I get to nerd out about these lizards, I'm happy to keep the conversation going)

[orsan1070]

Oh. Well, they are equally as related to Koraidon and Miraidon... in that they aren't.

In Indigo Disk, at the Crystal Pool, the professor says this:

"I am researching methods to catch Pokémon that live in different timelines, so I might transport them to the present day in my own timeline."

This was also always the case in the original Japanese-- the AI professor directly said the Paradoxes came from other timelines in the Zero Lab.

Paradoxes... aren't actually relatives of the Pokémon we know. They're alternate timeline counterparts. This is why Paradoxes like Brute Bonnet make no sense on an evolution tree and why some Paradoxes are robots and not biological.

[type-blaze0]

Okay, I thought about it a little bit too hard, and I think that cyclizar and Heliolisk share a common ancestor.

They're both very fast, normal-dual-type, highly energetic lizards. They both have frills and neck sacks used as combination functional organs and display features, have a dark tail tip, and originate from wide open and sunny terrain.

My theory is that kiridon lostIts fighting type for normal over time, becoming less aggressive, and then split into two different pokemon, one gaining the electric type and sun-seeking behavior, the other retaining normal/dragon typing and its physical nature.

And then if you really want to go nuts with it, they had a successful hybridization where the normal types were recessive, and it became an electric dragon, eventually either becoming miridon, or the creature that miridon is based on

[orsan1070]

Don't forget that paradoxes are not actually from the past and future, they're from alternate timelines. Koraidon isn't a real ancestor of Cyclizar.

That said, outside of that, I do like this idea! Personally, I place Heliolisk closer to Toxtricity, personally, since they're both bipedal and use neck features to generate electricity-- coloration is a little weaker, in my opinion, and I think Cyclizar is all in all more Sceptile-esque (only two reptile pokemon to shed and regrow their tails)-- but I do like this idea too. Kinda wish there was an easy way to have it related to both, but I don't really think there is

[type-blaze0]

The fun thing about differing headcanons is that you can have different evolutionary trees. My reasoning was based off of stats, physical appearance, temperament, and geology.

I reason that the electric sacks that heliolisk stars it's energy in fused with the frill to become cyclizar's wheel-like pouch under its neck.

Since he helio is most often found in desert regions, you could come to the conclusion that the first mutation would be its ability becoming solar power, in which case, it began to become specially oriented in order to make more use out of the ability, especially with the paired use of solar beam to fight off grass types. I do not have an exclamation for the electric type, it might be a remnant of an inbetween state between proto cyclisk and heliolisk, possibly even the same pokemon that split into toxtricity.

Cyclzar's prominence in open grasslands however, leads it to encounter more electric rodents, hyper-aggressive grass pokemon, water pokemon in interlacing rivers it might drink from, and the occasional migrating fire type, which would lead to the dragon type remaining useful

While it is possible that it is a convergent evolution, the amount of convergence required leads me to believe that it would be a separation from a common ancestor, rather than evolving towards common traits, both species are lizards that use their energy in bursts, easily domesticated by humans, of historic and cultural importance (palda's riding culture, Galer's desert ruins), and have a high speed stat.

[orsan1070]

Can I ask what about those two you specifically think is too close to converge? Heliolisk's neck frill and Cyclizar's neck sac kinda have nothing in common outside of being on the neck, and there are multiple other lizards with neck frills between Inteleon and Toxtricity (the former of whom has an actual frill, as opposed to a sac like Cyclizar).

(also i wouldnt include cultural importance, lol. that's not exactly a biological feature)

I definitely agree that they're *related*, I'm just not sure I follow your reasoning as to why these two specifically are more related than Inteleon, Toxtricity, and Sceptile

(personally i think this *may* be a difference in philosophy-- I don't tend to view abilities or types as an innate, uh, thing. pokemon types are shown to be mutable, and abilities naturally arise out of biology. if anything, i think the development of electricity generation via neck area is what's too specific to be convergent. then again, three independent fire-type monkeys.)

[type-blaze0]

Okay, I thought about it a little bit too hard, and I think that cyclizar and Heliolisk share a common ancestor.

They're both very fast, normal-dual-type, highly energetic lizards. They both have frills and neck sacks used as combination functional organs and display features, have a dark tail tip, and originate from wide open and sunny terrain.

My theory is that kiridon lostIts fighting type for normal over time, becoming less aggressive, and then split into two different pokemon, one gaining the electric type and sun-seeking behavior, the other retaining normal/dragon typing and its physical nature.

And then if you really want to go nuts with it, they had a successful hybridization where the normal types were recessive, and it became an electric dragon, eventually either becoming miridon, or the creature that miridon is based on

[orsan1070]

Don't forget that paradoxes are not actually from the past and future, they're from alternate timelines. Koraidon isn't a real ancestor of Cyclizar.

That said, outside of that, I do like this idea! Personally, I place Heliolisk closer to Toxtricity, personally, since they're both bipedal and use neck features to generate electricity-- coloration is a little weaker, in my opinion, and I think Cyclizar is all in all more Sceptile-esque (only two reptile pokemon to shed and regrow their tails)-- but I do like this idea too. Kinda wish there was an easy way to have it related to both, but I don't really think there is

[redavexat]