French person go brrrr

Like... Okay. The thing about Spamton is, it's important to note that he's both a victim and a perpetrator, but I feel like in doing so, many people lose the layers of his characterization. It's fucking weird to make him "just evil" or whatever in a narrative that doesn't fucking interface with morals like that. Toby Fox does not write his characters like that, and it is a disservice, and it is even disrespectful, to not engage with the text on your screen, and be so dismissive of a character because of their bad traits. And it's even worse when people seem to fucking like him and still do this shit!

Agreed!

Though i would like to ask, you say he's a victim and a perpetrator, what is he a perpetrator of? (/genq)

I'm referring to his role in the Weird Route. People get, well— weird, about it, and the nuances of things like that. From "oh, he isn't scared, look at him!" when he's hiding from the player in a garbage can. And I think, you know, why would he be hiding? He laughs, but is he gleeful, or is he nervous? I think he can be quite nasty, though, but people hardly seem to consider the circumstances around that behavior. There's the idea that he isn't queer, also. Trans, or gay. "He's just a misogynist", etc., when I just feel like...?

These things interface with his identity. They have a distinct narrative purpose. They're there for a reason, and in the Weird Route, it's very, "It's all of us or none of us", and you can see how upholding these structures directly harms him. Why make him "just a misogynist", as well? Do we think that's an interesting narrative? Why does he seem to be a favorite, then, if he's so rancid and evil. Granted, I don't know, this happens. With, like, Remmick in Sinners, for example, but. Spamton is not devoid of kindness or purely awful, even if he can be quite evil. Personally, him being a more malicious misogynist in WR isn't a detractor from his other identity markers, either. I think that's dumb and flattens his character. If you're woobifying him too much, this happens, and villifying is just another side of that coin. Like, this is the same idea with how degredation and idolization aren't so removed. Whether you're "less than", or "more than", it still makes you something else. I just think... he can be a misogynist and attracted to men, and people don't think he's attracted to men just because he hates women. In many cases, this would be true. In this one, you're just, like, wrong, and not interacting with the narrative as presented. He can still have trans-coding, too. It's an environmental thing, though. He isn't even the only misogynist—and this is so often the irritating thing, too, because Spamton criticism fucking abounds, but it's structural—and I'm not just talking about Berdly. Chapter two is fucking rife with it. Queen engages in benign sexism, trying to "protect" Noelle, but never asking her what she might want. Berdly puts her secondary to him. The player reinforces this maliciously. Spamton helps you do so. Genuinely, it's a structural problem, and it's undoubtable he enables it, but I also think...?

I don't know really, or concisely, but he's a man on the precipice. It's one act of cruelty or kindness that allows him to change, but within the Weird Route, there's no allowance. That's not the world you've created. So, I don't know, it's weird to me to play that and blame him for it, as if it wasn't your actions?

He is an enabler. He can be a perpetrator. And he still deserves to heal. It's fucking odd to strip him of that and say— oh, but he's just a misogynist. As if that isn't a flattening and a disservice to the whole damn thing. And it's not even an interesting story bit, is the thing! Plus, how do you look past the trans coding when it's written on the wall??

wait wait wait. where does the misogynist spamton thing comes from??

i think i remember hearing about it, from like, the way he refers to Noell as "[Hochie Mama]", and people thinking that's weird of him to do that when

1) he is quite fond of Noelle (it's explored more in the Sweepstakes, in the twitter faq) and it is clearly used as an endearing nickname

2) it's in brackets, which means there is very good chance he is not capable of controlling it, the very same way it distords his speech and true intention when talking about anything else. and it's not even clear if he realises how distorded from his thoughts his speech can be, or if he just stopped fighting it after years of struggle (i say that from the way he never corrects himself when his speech is incomprehensible or when he says an "[Hyperlink blocked]"). and to say something said due to a disability/speech impairment reflects the true views of the person saying that is downright ableist

so that's the only argument i've ever seen in favor of spam being a misogynist, but i was thinking you could share some of your light and share other things you have heard about it? :o (/gen)

otherwise i think i pretty much agree with you, spam is an enabler, but out of desperation more than evilness. and also trying to apply the characterisation of the weird route to the characters have always been counter-productive in my eyes, because they are put in an extreme scenario that is life-or-death, they are not their usual selves at all. so whenever i see the fandom do that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

also, because i forgot to add, people ignoring the queer coding of spamton in the queer coded game is another level of oblivious lmao

I think the misogyny occurs to me in how he, much like the player, uses her, or maybe more aptly in his case, enables Noelle's use as a tool. I wouldn't say I get it from "Hochi Mama", and I wouldn't say he "hates" her, either, though it was the word I grasped for there. I'm not sure how I would describe their relationship in the Weird Route, actually, but.

He is a player in propping up that system of abuse, which is qualifying to me, more than his words, but it's... hard for me to describe. I'll need to spend more time thinking on it, but... It'd probably be the hubris, if I had to say. I think "What, you're calling her now?" is. Diminishing. But to be fair, I also think it's an insult that hits absolutely everyone involved.

Like, I don't think it's exactly wrong to say he's misogynistic (?), though... I know I could change my mind, and I probably should refresh on the text, too—it hasn't been that long, but memory not so good. At least, I'll say that I think it's narratively interesting to have a transmasc-coded character overcorrect, leaning out of one structure, but too hard into the other, and using this to show how these structures, and holding onto things out of fear, causes harm to everyone, how freedom does not equal power, that... masculinity is not subjugation; is not toxic.

#very cool conversation (/gen)

he is definitely a gear in the system of abuse that is enabling the player's control over Kris and Noelle. there is definitely SOMETHING

though i admit i fail to see how gender plays a role in this narrative here, because yes, he enables the dehumanisation that Noelle faces, but does her role as a girl plays a part in how he's reacting? if Noelle had been a gender other than a girl, would Spamton have acted differently? other than the misogynistic names he calls her in brackets, and i've talked about that more in the other reblogs.

like yes i understand how belittleling he is of Noelle in the weird route, but i think removing what is happening from the context of it being towards Noelle specifically in the Weird Route specifically too isn't faire to his character (or any characters analysed throught the weird route for that matter).

i do think it's interesting, and could be a very interesting way of headcanoning his character to play more openly into these gender roles and how his position as a trans man plays into his masculinity and relationship to femininity! it's definitely worth exploring, and i'd love to read more of what you have to say about this in the future! (/gen)

though i admit, for now, with what the source text provides, and what we've discussed in this reblog chain, i am not convinced of interpreting Spamton as a misogynist. though i always keep my mind open to changing my analysis of Spam :]

I got mad about Spamton stuff:/

Like... Okay. The thing about Spamton is, it's important to note that he's both a victim and a perpetrator, but I feel like in doing so, many people lose the layers of his characterization. It's fucking weird to make him "just evil" or whatever in a narrative that doesn't fucking interface with morals like that. Toby Fox does not write his characters like that, and it is a disservice, and it is even disrespectful, to not engage with the text on your screen, and be so dismissive of a character because of their bad traits. And it's even worse when people seem to fucking like him and still do this shit!

Agreed!

Though i would like to ask, you say he's a victim and a perpetrator, what is he a perpetrator of? (/genq)

I'm referring to his role in the Weird Route. People get, well— weird, about it, and the nuances of things like that. From "oh, he isn't scared, look at him!" when he's hiding from the player in a garbage can. And I think, you know, why would he be hiding? He laughs, but is he gleeful, or is he nervous? I think he can be quite nasty, though, but people hardly seem to consider the circumstances around that behavior. There's the idea that he isn't queer, also. Trans, or gay. "He's just a misogynist", etc., when I just feel like...?

These things interface with his identity. They have a distinct narrative purpose. They're there for a reason, and in the Weird Route, it's very, "It's all of us or none of us", and you can see how upholding these structures directly harms him. Why make him "just a misogynist", as well? Do we think that's an interesting narrative? Why does he seem to be a favorite, then, if he's so rancid and evil. Granted, I don't know, this happens. With, like, Remmick in Sinners, for example, but. Spamton is not devoid of kindness or purely awful, even if he can be quite evil. Personally, him being a more malicious misogynist in WR isn't a detractor from his other identity markers, either. I think that's dumb and flattens his character. If you're woobifying him too much, this happens, and villifying is just another side of that coin. Like, this is the same idea with how degredation and idolization aren't so removed. Whether you're "less than", or "more than", it still makes you something else. I just think... he can be a misogynist and attracted to men, and people don't think he's attracted to men just because he hates women. In many cases, this would be true. In this one, you're just, like, wrong, and not interacting with the narrative as presented. He can still have trans-coding, too. It's an environmental thing, though. He isn't even the only misogynist—and this is so often the irritating thing, too, because Spamton criticism fucking abounds, but it's structural—and I'm not just talking about Berdly. Chapter two is fucking rife with it. Queen engages in benign sexism, trying to "protect" Noelle, but never asking her what she might want. Berdly puts her secondary to him. The player reinforces this maliciously. Spamton helps you do so. Genuinely, it's a structural problem, and it's undoubtable he enables it, but I also think...?

I don't know really, or concisely, but he's a man on the precipice. It's one act of cruelty or kindness that allows him to change, but within the Weird Route, there's no allowance. That's not the world you've created. So, I don't know, it's weird to me to play that and blame him for it, as if it wasn't your actions?

He is an enabler. He can be a perpetrator. And he still deserves to heal. It's fucking odd to strip him of that and say— oh, but he's just a misogynist. As if that isn't a flattening and a disservice to the whole damn thing. And it's not even an interesting story bit, is the thing! Plus, how do you look past the trans coding when it's written on the wall??

wait wait wait. where does the misogynist spamton thing comes from??

i think i remember hearing about it, from like, the way he refers to Noell as "[Hochie Mama]", and people thinking that's weird of him to do that when

1) he is quite fond of Noelle (it's explored more in the Sweepstakes, in the twitter faq) and it is clearly used as an endearing nickname

2) it's in brackets, which means there is very good chance he is not capable of controlling it, the very same way it distords his speech and true intention when talking about anything else. and it's not even clear if he realises how distorded from his thoughts his speech can be, or if he just stopped fighting it after years of struggle (i say that from the way he never corrects himself when his speech is incomprehensible or when he says an "[Hyperlink blocked]"). and to say something said due to a disability/speech impairment reflects the true views of the person saying that is downright ableist

so that's the only argument i've ever seen in favor of spam being a misogynist, but i was thinking you could share some of your light and share other things you have heard about it? :o (/gen)

otherwise i think i pretty much agree with you, spam is an enabler, but out of desperation more than evilness. and also trying to apply the characterisation of the weird route to the characters have always been counter-productive in my eyes, because they are put in an extreme scenario that is life-or-death, they are not their usual selves at all. so whenever i see the fandom do that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

also, because i forgot to add, people ignoring the queer coding of spamton in the queer coded game is another level of oblivious lmao

I mean, using a phrase like “hoochie mama” as an endearing nickname IS misogynistic even if there is no mal intent. The whole phrase is misogynistic. I do think that it is possible he isn’t saying it on purpose though because his bracket text effectively functions like tics

He does also call Noelle Kris’s sidepiece in weird route though, and degrades her. Which, to be fair, i think that the role that functions in the story is to point out to the player that you forced her into that role. I think you are meant to take that, to some degree, as an indictment of you. but he is still the one who said it, and said it in the way he did

#i hope i don't come out as weird here!!!!! (/gen)#maybe i am missing the point and maybe i just haven't disconstructed my internalised misogyny enough (as someone who was #socialised as a girl growing up and was grought up in a misogynistic home) but i just can't seem to see or understand how is spamton a miso #misogynist outside of his speech impairment?#which again. must not be taken at face-value

yes, since the bracket text can be understood as tics or tic-like speech impairment, it feels unfair to treat it as actual insight on how he feels about women in general, the same way, for example, a person with tourette syndrome saying the n-word is not reflective of any actual racism or bigotry, but a symtom of their disability.

also thank you for clarifying that "hoochie mama" is misogynistic as a phrase itself. (/gen) since english is not my native language, those sort of expressions can be tricky for me to understand the cultural meaning behind!

and i just checked, he calls Noelle a "[Side Chick]" in brackets too!

turn 9 of the weird route spamton neo fight (thank you deltarune.wiki):

YOU THINK MAKING [Frozen Chicken] WITH YOUR [Side Chick]

so my argument for the "[Hoochie Mama]" applies the same here.

i do think it's interesting to point it out, but i can hardly call it proof that spamton is misogynistic, and not that his disability has him say misogynistic phrases.

I got mad about Spamton stuff:/

Like... Okay. The thing about Spamton is, it's important to note that he's both a victim and a perpetrator, but I feel like in doing so, many people lose the layers of his characterization. It's fucking weird to make him "just evil" or whatever in a narrative that doesn't fucking interface with morals like that. Toby Fox does not write his characters like that, and it is a disservice, and it is even disrespectful, to not engage with the text on your screen, and be so dismissive of a character because of their bad traits. And it's even worse when people seem to fucking like him and still do this shit!

Agreed!

Though i would like to ask, you say he's a victim and a perpetrator, what is he a perpetrator of? (/genq)

I'm referring to his role in the Weird Route. People get, well— weird, about it, and the nuances of things like that. From "oh, he isn't scared, look at him!" when he's hiding from the player in a garbage can. And I think, you know, why would he be hiding? He laughs, but is he gleeful, or is he nervous? I think he can be quite nasty, though, but people hardly seem to consider the circumstances around that behavior. There's the idea that he isn't queer, also. Trans, or gay. "He's just a misogynist", etc., when I just feel like...?

These things interface with his identity. They have a distinct narrative purpose. They're there for a reason, and in the Weird Route, it's very, "It's all of us or none of us", and you can see how upholding these structures directly harms him. Why make him "just a misogynist", as well? Do we think that's an interesting narrative? Why does he seem to be a favorite, then, if he's so rancid and evil. Granted, I don't know, this happens. With, like, Remmick in Sinners, for example, but. Spamton is not devoid of kindness or purely awful, even if he can be quite evil. Personally, him being a more malicious misogynist in WR isn't a detractor from his other identity markers, either. I think that's dumb and flattens his character. If you're woobifying him too much, this happens, and villifying is just another side of that coin. Like, this is the same idea with how degredation and idolization aren't so removed. Whether you're "less than", or "more than", it still makes you something else. I just think... he can be a misogynist and attracted to men, and people don't think he's attracted to men just because he hates women. In many cases, this would be true. In this one, you're just, like, wrong, and not interacting with the narrative as presented. He can still have trans-coding, too. It's an environmental thing, though. He isn't even the only misogynist—and this is so often the irritating thing, too, because Spamton criticism fucking abounds, but it's structural—and I'm not just talking about Berdly. Chapter two is fucking rife with it. Queen engages in benign sexism, trying to "protect" Noelle, but never asking her what she might want. Berdly puts her secondary to him. The player reinforces this maliciously. Spamton helps you do so. Genuinely, it's a structural problem, and it's undoubtable he enables it, but I also think...?

I don't know really, or concisely, but he's a man on the precipice. It's one act of cruelty or kindness that allows him to change, but within the Weird Route, there's no allowance. That's not the world you've created. So, I don't know, it's weird to me to play that and blame him for it, as if it wasn't your actions?

He is an enabler. He can be a perpetrator. And he still deserves to heal. It's fucking odd to strip him of that and say— oh, but he's just a misogynist. As if that isn't a flattening and a disservice to the whole damn thing. And it's not even an interesting story bit, is the thing! Plus, how do you look past the trans coding when it's written on the wall??

wait wait wait. where does the misogynist spamton thing comes from??

i think i remember hearing about it, from like, the way he refers to Noell as "[Hochie Mama]", and people thinking that's weird of him to do that when

1) he is quite fond of Noelle (it's explored more in the Sweepstakes, in the twitter faq) and it is clearly used as an endearing nickname

2) it's in brackets, which means there is very good chance he is not capable of controlling it, the very same way it distords his speech and true intention when talking about anything else. and it's not even clear if he realises how distorded from his thoughts his speech can be, or if he just stopped fighting it after years of struggle (i say that from the way he never corrects himself when his speech is incomprehensible or when he says an "[Hyperlink blocked]"). and to say something said due to a disability/speech impairment reflects the true views of the person saying that is downright ableist

so that's the only argument i've ever seen in favor of spam being a misogynist, but i was thinking you could share some of your light and share other things you have heard about it? :o (/gen)

otherwise i think i pretty much agree with you, spam is an enabler, but out of desperation more than evilness. and also trying to apply the characterisation of the weird route to the characters have always been counter-productive in my eyes, because they are put in an extreme scenario that is life-or-death, they are not their usual selves at all. so whenever i see the fandom do that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

#that man is a business loving businessmen #and very importantly an addison which became spamton g spamton a salesMAN

also, because i forgot to add, people ignoring the queer coding of spamton in the queer coded game is another level of oblivious lmao

I got mad about Spamton stuff:/

Like... Okay. The thing about Spamton is, it's important to note that he's both a victim and a perpetrator, but I feel like in doing so, many people lose the layers of his characterization. It's fucking weird to make him "just evil" or whatever in a narrative that doesn't fucking interface with morals like that. Toby Fox does not write his characters like that, and it is a disservice, and it is even disrespectful, to not engage with the text on your screen, and be so dismissive of a character because of their bad traits. And it's even worse when people seem to fucking like him and still do this shit!

Agreed!

Though i would like to ask, you say he's a victim and a perpetrator, what is he a perpetrator of? (/genq)

I'm referring to his role in the Weird Route. People get, well— weird, about it, and the nuances of things like that. From "oh, he isn't scared, look at him!" when he's hiding from the player in a garbage can. And I think, you know, why would he be hiding? He laughs, but is he gleeful, or is he nervous? I think he can be quite nasty, though, but people hardly seem to consider the circumstances around that behavior. There's the idea that he isn't queer, also. Trans, or gay. "He's just a misogynist", etc., when I just feel like...?

These things interface with his identity. They have a distinct narrative purpose. They're there for a reason, and in the Weird Route, it's very, "It's all of us or none of us", and you can see how upholding these structures directly harms him. Why make him "just a misogynist", as well? Do we think that's an interesting narrative? Why does he seem to be a favorite, then, if he's so rancid and evil. Granted, I don't know, this happens. With, like, Remmick in Sinners, for example, but. Spamton is not devoid of kindness or purely awful, even if he can be quite evil. Personally, him being a more malicious misogynist in WR isn't a detractor from his other identity markers, either. I think that's dumb and flattens his character. If you're woobifying him too much, this happens, and villifying is just another side of that coin. Like, this is the same idea with how degredation and idolization aren't so removed. Whether you're "less than", or "more than", it still makes you something else. I just think... he can be a misogynist and attracted to men, and people don't think he's attracted to men just because he hates women. In many cases, this would be true. In this one, you're just, like, wrong, and not interacting with the narrative as presented. He can still have trans-coding, too. It's an environmental thing, though. He isn't even the only misogynist—and this is so often the irritating thing, too, because Spamton criticism fucking abounds, but it's structural—and I'm not just talking about Berdly. Chapter two is fucking rife with it. Queen engages in benign sexism, trying to "protect" Noelle, but never asking her what she might want. Berdly puts her secondary to him. The player reinforces this maliciously. Spamton helps you do so. Genuinely, it's a structural problem, and it's undoubtable he enables it, but I also think...?

I don't know really, or concisely, but he's a man on the precipice. It's one act of cruelty or kindness that allows him to change, but within the Weird Route, there's no allowance. That's not the world you've created. So, I don't know, it's weird to me to play that and blame him for it, as if it wasn't your actions?

He is an enabler. He can be a perpetrator. And he still deserves to heal. It's fucking odd to strip him of that and say— oh, but he's just a misogynist. As if that isn't a flattening and a disservice to the whole damn thing. And it's not even an interesting story bit, is the thing! Plus, how do you look past the trans coding when it's written on the wall??

#i am genuinely confused at the misogyny thing

wait wait wait. where does the misogynist spamton thing comes from??

i think i remember hearing about it, from like, the way he refers to Noell as "[Hochie Mama]", and people thinking that's weird of him to do that when

1) he is quite fond of Noelle (it's explored more in the Sweepstakes, in the twitter faq) and it is clearly used as an endearing nickname

2) it's in brackets, which means there is very good chance he is not capable of controlling it, the very same way it distords his speech and true intention when talking about anything else. and it's not even clear if he realises how distorded from his thoughts his speech can be, or if he just stopped fighting it after years of struggle (i say that from the way he never corrects himself when his speech is incomprehensible or when he says an "[Hyperlink blocked]"). and to say something said due to a disability/speech impairment reflects the true views of the person saying that is downright ableist

so that's the only argument i've ever seen in favor of spam being a misogynist, but i was thinking you could share some of your light and share other things you have heard about it? :o (/gen)

otherwise i think i pretty much agree with you, spam is an enabler, but out of desperation more than evilness. and also trying to apply the characterisation of the weird route to the characters have always been counter-productive in my eyes, because they are put in an extreme scenario that is life-or-death, they are not their usual selves at all. so whenever i see the fandom do that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

Lotta people who dont like spamton not ready for the fact that most spamton fans actually also treat spamton quite poorly and their views are probably extremely skewed because of that

Most ways people treat and talk about spamton online are really atrociously drenched in ableism and classism

Lotta people who dont like spamton not ready for the fact that most spamton fans actually also treat spamton quite poorly and their views are probably extremely skewed because of that

Most ways people treat and talk about spamton online are really atrociously drenched in ableism and classism

Lotta people who dont like spamton not ready for the fact that most spamton fans actually also treat spamton quite poorly and their views are probably extremely skewed because of that

Most ways people treat and talk about spamton online are really atrociously drenched in ableism and classism

Lotta people who dont like spamton not ready for the fact that most spamton fans actually also treat spamton quite poorly and their views are probably extremely skewed because of that

Most ways people treat and talk about spamton online are really atrociously drenched in ableism and classism

vyvilha

i think i don't really vibe with most other fans of my favorite male characters is because they usually depict them too much of a man, and i am not interested in men, i am interested in The Character. and i am not saying that they should depict them as women, or nonbinary, or should depict them as feminine, no, not at all. but there's like, you know, you can depict a male character as The Character, and you can depict them as The Man. do you get me? like, i go to the fandom looking for art and fics, and it's just, regardless of his actual characterization, it's all just fantasizing about some kind of an abstract dominant patriarch, wearing my favorite character's face. it may be the most totally-wouldnt-have-normal-relationships (and sometimes even would-literally-abuse-you) kind of guy, and you join a dedicated space for his fans, and all they talk about is how they want to marry and start a tradcore 50s style nuclear family with him. it can be a guy who's arrogance and attempts of domination are explicitly shown to be a facade that hide the fact that he's actually kind of a massive pathetic wet loser, and you go to his fics, and they're all depicting him as a caricaturish daddy dom. at this point it's like, do you even like the character at all, or do you just like The Man, and project this man onto whatever character you find visually attractive? and these people kind of, really really poison actual discussion of the character, who is kind of a fucked up evil person (i only like *those* types, so im talking about them) because they see analysis of the actual character as an attack on their fantasized daddy dom husband, who is actually isn't The Character at all, and is simply a face of the day for The Man

#spamton #tenna

I got mad about Spamton stuff:/

Like... Okay. The thing about Spamton is, it's important to note that he's both a victim and a perpetrator, but I feel like in doing so, many people lose the layers of his characterization. It's fucking weird to make him "just evil" or whatever in a narrative that doesn't fucking interface with morals like that. Toby Fox does not write his characters like that, and it is a disservice, and it is even disrespectful, to not engage with the text on your screen, and be so dismissive of a character because of their bad traits. And it's even worse when people seem to fucking like him and still do this shit!