“Despite the effort Caillebotte put into the painting, it was rejected by France’s most prestigious art exhibition, The Salon, in 1875. The depiction of working-class people in their trade, not fully clothed, shocked the jurors and was deemed a ‘vulgar subject matter.’
The images of the floor scrapers came to be associated with Degas’s paintings of washerwomen, also presented at the same exhibition and similarly scorned as ‘vulgar’”.
jes, i know your opinion on Al and i honestly don't want to offend you. also i've read your previous Al takes in reply to the tech anon, which i largely agree with (especially the non-neutrality of A, which is a
separate issue) and i think you make excellent points. so please, if this ask comes off as very rude, forgive me that is truly not my intention. i'm just frustrated and i feel like you're a very reasonable voice in this debate.
i personally think the witch hunt is crazy and terrible. i want to float the idea that perhaps, maybe, there exists a small portion of writers who write fanfic because they love to write and want to get better at writing. each fic is an act of learning, exploration and seeing what works for their own expression. yes it might be about community but more likely it just so happens that they like fic, love these characters, and enjoy playing with them. so they're writing for themselves really. what is so evil or morally corrupt about trying new tools? do we need to put them in jail?
there is such an obvious difference between posting fully Al-generated slop with very little author engagement, versus using Al to maybe fix a couple of sentences (or more) when the fic is still so clearly well
thought out and reflects the creativity and heart of the author. what if someone uses Al to do some research about popular nightclubs in magnitogorsk so their fic can feel more authentic? is that so evil compared to searching on google? twenty years ago, when google was the "new big evil" compared to searching through books on a foreign city and translating russian material, did we make the same argument? what about grammar tools and spelling autocorrection? are we making the same argument that kids who use calculators when they're little will never be able to learn math? sigh. the inability to differentiate between thoughtful and well-intentioned usage and mindless, effortless usage astounds me. 100k fics with 20 instances, 50k fics with 4 instances. what are we doing here, "calling the authors out"? i can't even begin to understand this level of animosity.
i myself do not write, so maybe i have no right to say any of this because "i don't understand the process of a real writer" and perhaps that is true. i am friends with people who do write, and have betaed for them, and have experimented with using Al with them. i cannot speak for everyone, and of course i've read Al-slop fics that i do not enjoy, but the people i know use Al in good faith. i truly do not think they are in the wrong.
thanks for voicing another perspective - i do think that this is not a black-and-white issue and that these are conversations that are worth having as fandom communities. part of what I have found so frustrating about generative AI is that it seems to have all happened so fast. tech companies have been successful in creating this artificial sense of urgency that has pushed all kinds of different institutions and environments (schools, workplaces, etc.) to feel like they must IMMEDIATELY integrate AI into every single workflow and get everybody using it all the time. and as a result it can feel like aghhh there's been no TIME for us to really sit with what it means to use these tools and to really think about how we use these tools or whether using them is in service of our larger goals. none of us asked for this to happen but we're all now unwilling subjects in a massive sociocultural experiment that will likely change so much about our world.
so i think a lot of the rage people express around AI use is not (just) being mad at people for using AI tools... i think the rage and the desire to bring down the hammer stems from this deeper feeling of jesus fucking CHRIST, we didn't ask for this, we don't want to be part of this massive change, we are TIRED of living through these once-in-a-lifetime crises that threaten our jobs/well-being, we just want things to stay the way they were. like FUCK these tech companies but also FUCK there is a lot of rage and grief in seeing the professions or communities or ways of making art that we value being involuntarily transformed or thrown into upheaval by what feels like these totally alien external forces whose values are often diametrically opposed to the values those professions, communities, and artistic practices have cultivated for decades. navigating change is hard and ugly and it's even uglier and harder to navigate when it hits our communities, jobs, etc like a meteor leaving us with no time to prepare or reflect or discuss as a collective how we want to respond.
and i think that's where the witchhunt mindset comes from. i think people see the cultural shifts that are happening in fandom (...which were honestly in the works long before generative AI came onto the scene) and they feel this desperate clawing sense of NO. NOT HERE. YOU CAN'T HAVE THIS THING I LOVE, and that manifests as a desire to drive out anyone who does not share their fannish values ie their personal sense of what fandom community and creative activity should look like. i am deeply, powerfully sympathetic to this argument because i actually do think that AI fucking sucks, I hate it, I wish it were not in my fandom spaces, I too wish that we could establish a clear moral brightline that says NO. NOT HERE. but i am also a pragmatist and i understand that in some ways it's too late! the dream of an AI-free AO3 or whatever is dead. people are going to use it. and we can organize online witchhunts and develop ever more sophisticated tools for hunting down AI use in fandom etc etc. but i think we also have to think about like... does bringing that energy into fandom spaces also risk destroying the things we hold dear about these communities? if what we want to build are communities of friends who love the same cultural texts and who thrive on discussing those texts and making art about them together... doesn't creating a culture of fear, suspicion, paranoia, policing each other, etc risk destroying those communities just as much as AI use does?
idk. i am torn here i am still working through my own feelings about this. but i think where i land at the moment is something like: if we want to encourage certain behaviors and discourage others, we need to identify the behaviors we value most and think about how we can positively reinforce those behaviors, create environments and ways of engaging with each other that nurture those behaviors, and address the structural or interpersonal obstacles that might prevent those behaviors from flourishing. i think THAT should be our focus (and i have more thoughts about what that might look like). but also within that i think there is still room for us to be clear about "hey, doing X isn't cool in this community!", not in a witchhunt way but in a "hey, you're new here, let's talk about the norms we've developed over the years." (i think, as i have said in the tags on various posts), a big part of the issue is that many people don't KNOW the norms or understand why we hold those values because they came into fandom via very different routes than longtime fans! and that is another problem that we need to think about too, like how and where do new generations of fans learn the norms and traditions of the communities they are joining, and also how do we account for the fact that cultural/community traditions are living things that change over time and the norms of 15 years ago may not apply today or may need to be reconsidered.)
OKAY but I realize I am not directly answering your question. i think there is no one right answer here. you are probably not going to like my answer, which is that you don't need AI to fix your grammar or catch your typos or tell you how to express something more clearly. that's what betas are for! (and maybe thinking about how we build/rebuild robust cultures of betaing is one of those obstacles we have to think about.) when i finish a fic, i don't run it through grammarly. i send it to the friends who have been cheerleading me through the whole process and say something like AAAAA I CANNOT LOOK AT THIS FOR A SECOND LONGER CAN YOU HELP MEEEEEE DOES IT SUCK IS IT AWFUL HELP MEEEEEE SHOULD I DELETE IT ALL, and those friends, as an act of love and friendship, read my draft, suggest changes where they see issues, respond to comments i've left in the margins like HOW DO I SAY THIS DOES THIS SUCK, and reassure me that publishing this will not destroy my reputation and force me to fake my death and abscond to a sheep farm on a remote scottish island where i will be forced to live out my days without access to writing implements. and then, hopefully, at some point in the future, i will get to pay this loving attention/care back to them or pay it forward to other writes. to me that whole experience is SUCH a core part of fannish culture and fannish friendships that the "why not use AI for that" argument literally doesn't make sense to me. why on earth would I need to introduce AI into one of my all-time favorite human-to-human experiences?
ok but sorry lol you can see how passionately i feel about betaing. i guess i would just say that like... to your point about calculators... doing calculations by hand is not (usually) a communal experience, unless you are a math major who loves studying with your friends. so when you switch from doing laborious calculations by hand to doing them quickly on a calculator, you might be losing some of the cognitive or learning benefits of solving equations by hand, but you are not losing something that is absolutely core to the experience of being in the mathematical community. but when you switch from like, doing writing sprints alongside your friends, drafting and revising with feedback from your beta readers, having people cheerlead you and support you along the way, etc. to copy-pasting your draft into AI and asking it to "make it better," you ARE losing something fundamental. you are losing the cognitive and learning benefits of doing the work yourself, but you are losing all the social and communal benefits of using creative work to deepen and strengthen friendships. which to me is absolutely core to the experience of being in a fandom community. and that is why i personally feel like... introducing AI will make the experience of being in fandom community worse, not just because it will flood AO3 with AI-generated slop, but because it will deepen the already fraying social bonds of fandom community and the growing sense of isolation many people experience within fandom, especially if they do fandom on algorithm-driven platforms. it will encourage us to turn to the machine instead of turning to each other. and that fucking sucks.
sorry i cant stop thinking about ilya in this outfit
with shane on his lap a la this gif of jude law in wilde
like. shane probably high or a little tipsy just tucked into ilya’s neck lowkey horny as fuck in his little shorts and tank and tube socks at a summer get together. and the cens are just like 🧍👁️👁️ haha……. okay…..
“Teachers are often unaware of the gender distribution of talk in their classrooms. They usually consider that they give equal amounts of attention to girls and boys, and it is only when they make a tape recording that they realize that boys are dominating the interactions. Dale Spender, an Australian feminist who has been a strong advocate of female rights in this area, noted that teachers who tried to restore the balance by deliberately ‘favouring’ the girls were astounded to find that despite their efforts they continued to devote more time to the boys in their classrooms. Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls. And so did his male pupils. They complained vociferously that the girls were getting too much talking time. In other public contexts, too, such as seminars and debates, when women and men are deliberately given an equal amount of the highly valued talking time, there is often a perception that they are getting more than their fair share. Dale Spender explains this as follows: “The talkativeness of women has been gauged in comparison not with men but with silence. Women have not been judged on the grounds of whether they talk more than men, but of whether they talk more than silent women.” In other words, if women talk at all, this may be perceived as ‘too much’ by men who expect them to provide a silent, decorative background in many social contexts.”
—
PBS: Language as Prejudice - Myth #6: Women Talk Too Much (via misandry-mermaid)
Every EVERY women’s studies class I’ve been in has had this problem and failed to address it.
There's little textual evidence for this, but I firmly believe that a lot of the Montreal team resented Shane's fame and notoriety as a generational talent.
There's one line in HR where Shane's thinking about why he chooses to live alone instead of with a teammate as a rookie, but I think there's got to be more than that.
When you have someone like that who is so far above you, talent wise, and so famous, of course resentment can fester. Especially when you are also highly competitive professional athletes. It's that Tall Poppy syndrome.
I bet there were so many resentful complaints about it, and people taking shots at Shane which he either didn't notice or just ignored. (Ilya probably also got these, but he's more apt to be like, yes I am better than you, obviously)
In the show the TV announcers say things like, "Shane Hollander and the Montreal Metros", and some of those guys were definitely like, what are we Hollander, your backup dancers? And I bet sometimes Shane apologized for it, like it's his fault that other people are saying that stuff.
I definitely believe that his coach would have been part of this too. Based on how he's portrayed in TLG, to me that guy really resents Shane's star power and how it 'pulls focus' from the team as a whole. And his own job as the coach. He coaches this team to back to back cups and all anyone talks about is that weird (asian) kid? How dare that kid take the attention that should be his.
I think this would be a really interesting aspect of Shane's relationship with Montreal to explore. Especially in contrast to the Centaurs, who are all horrified the first time Shane comes and apologizes to them after an announcer calls them "Hollanov and the Centaurs".
Okay, now I want to write a 5+1 times where Shane apologized for being himself and one time he was reminded he didn't have to.
The reason I have a Thing about the Vegas subdrop fics is like....ugh I don't want to be all "you can't have fun" because I get that people are just having fun and that's great and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a little h/c vulnerability kink. Enjoy your weepy bottom in God's light
But what gets me is the people who are the most into that seem totally unaware that it is in fact a kink. It's like they bamboozle themselves into thinking it's canon in a way I don't see other kinksters doing.
Which is how we get the takes that Ilya *actually* did something wrong to Shane during Vegas and and needs to do a penance walk when....what we saw on screen was a hot, consensual sexual encounter. Shane's an adult, babes. If he wanted a kiss he could have just said so, or gone for one. That's how things between adults works. The idea of recrimination here makes it out like sex is something Ilya is doing *to* Shane which uhhh yeah. Not a fan
The point of the line isn't "Ilya has wronged Shane" it's "Shane is worried about his own desires" and getting that twisted leads to a whole nexus of extremely sincere villain!Ilya takes that *do* annoy me.
art is not my strong suit but this is my best recreation of what i saw when i opened the window. i have to emphasize that she was supermodel levels of gorgeous
Imagine how difficult of an adjustment it will be for Shane and Ilya to not only be on the same team but to never actually share the ice (except on the power play). They're stuck watching their man be far and away the best player out there without the distraction of being mid-play themselves and they've lost their outlet for channelling all of their sexual tension into something reasonably acceptable for audiences. Imagine the fan edits of them just sitting on the bench, chewing on their mouthguard, while shooting obvious fuck-me-eyes at the other. Ilya's urge to check Shane into the boards is unreasonable. As soon as Shane gets on the ice he shoots off like a bat out of hell to burn off his excess energy. They can't even fucking look at each other in the locker room. As soon as they're home Ilya is throwing Shane up against the wall as hard as he would have done if they were both wearing pads. Those first few months they both acquire more bruises off the ice than on it.
In hockey, there is an unwritten set of rules that players are meant to follow. It's called "the code."
The code includes a lot of things, but most relevant to this fic is about retribution for hits or plays that injure other players.
If you hurt a player and it is a dirty or borderline dirty play, you are usually expected to pay for it by fighting someone on that injured player's team.
(Now keep in mind, a lot of this is unwritten and the "rules" change as eras change. I am doing my best to replicate what would be the attitudes in their timeline)
Why does someone have to fight when they have thrown a hit that hurt another player?
If you hurt a guy on the other team, you are usually challenged to fight by a player on his team to "avenge" him. This is theoretically supposed to scare other players in the future from going after anyone else. Most often it's done as revenge and to feel better (lol).
Why is it a big deal if someone from the team with the injured player doesn't fight the player who caused the injury?
If players don't fight after someone is injured, sometimes people will question the chemistry of the locker room (aka, how close the team is, what kind of attitude and culture they have as an organization and roster of players). The idea is that if you guys are close as a team, someone will be mad enough on your behalf to fight.
Second of all, and this is crucial, if you do not fight, people question if your team is tough enough to defend itself. If you don't fight after one hit, then other teams may throw other dirty hits because you have shown you can't defend yourself.
I don't know about the Raiders in this universe, but in real life, their NHL equivalent (Boston Bruins) are supposed to be a mean, big and bad team just overall. They are supposed to be the ones who play borderline dirty and strike fear in opposing teams. For this team to let someone else go unpunished after this would look really bad. I have no reason to think that in the HR universe this isn't the case too.
Why is Ilya worried about fighting someone else the next game?
Because he needs to prove and show that he and his team are still tough. Ilya needs to fight to show that they won't be pushed around. However, when it's a fight that isn't as 'heat of the moment' like the one right after an injury would be, you are expected to be "fair" when you decide who you will fight.
Ilya is going to have to find a guy who is close to his size and fighting experience and try to fight him. Otherwise, that'll be frowned upon. (Keep in mind, if a smaller player challenges him, he's welcome to take the fight, he just can't/shouldn't initiate it)
Ilya is worried also because fighting comes with injury risks. Hockey helmets are hard and can really hurt hands if someone accidentally catches them in the wrong way/angle/force in a punch. You can also get hurt falling down at the end of the fight. You can also just get hurt because, you know, its a fight.
to add some more, and this is more ramble-y than the original post so you'll have to excuse me, but the whole fighting after a hit is....so ritualized, almost.
before i go forward, just know im not saying i approve or disapprove of this or anything, i'm just trying to express how circular the logic of hockey is, but also how ingrained it is! you have guys fighting for actions that everyone knows weren't even on purpose probably and you have them thanking each other in the penalty box for it! you have guys fighting days after/weeks after the thing they did to earn getting their ass beaten! its crazy!
rambling under the cut
example #1
adam lowry vs keegan kolesar
(this one i would say is a captain fighting a guy because he felt like it was the way to show he cared because everyone knows the opponent didn't actually mean to hurt his guy)
the precursor to this clip is keegan kolesar (#55 in white & black) had a collision with a player from the jets (team in blue) and sent him flying and crashing into the boards. he had to be stretchered off. (here's a link to a video that shows what happened at around 36 seconds) honestly? pretty much everyone can agree that this was bad luck and more of an accident than anything.
and yet. kolesar had to fight adam lowry (#17 in blue) (also note that he is the captain)
it's almost ridiculous, if you think about it.
here, as they get ready for play to restart, around 10 seconds, you have kolesar and lowry talking. all things considered, it looks pretty friendly and calm. they're not necessarily yelling, and imo kolesar even looks legit apologetic. its all pretty peaceful.
then the game restarts.
the puck is about to drop.
notice the formation? you have the two guys taking the faceoff. and then near the bottom of your screen, you have two guys set up there ready for the play (#62 & #61). and thats exactly what the guys on the other side, near the top are meant to be doing. but no, they're not. they're already skating apart. its #55 and #17 getting ready to fight. they were arranging a fight when they were having that talk.
both guys drop their gloves and now its go time.
watch the video from 1:34-1:57 and you'll hear an example of the code is applied for real in these hockey brains lmao.
the announcer says: "this is about respect. this is about responding. this is adam lowry representing his group saying 'this is how much we care about you, brother' and this is kolesar saying 'although [ the hit was] unintentional i'm gonna answer the call [to fight]' because i would say he cares too. there's a code...and at times you just have to accept invitations and kolesar does. he accepts a couple of left stiff arms and good for those two men"
then the fight ends, they both go to the penalty box and #17 actually thanks #55 for accepting the fight.
and the game moves on. maybe the guys on the jets struggle because you know, they saw their teammate stretchered off ice, but hopefully this stops anybody else going after guys for the rest of the game.
this is a fight i would say was fought based on priciple and honestly done mostly for the locker room and team of the jets. #17, as the captain, felt like he HAD to fight the guy who hurt his teammate even though everyone can tell it was a freak accident. this is for the harmony of the room and some obligation he felt to show his injured teammate he cares.
(also in this screenshot you can see the cuts on lowry's hands. this was a relatively short fight too, so. you can see what i mean about possible injuries in fights)
example #2
jayden struble vs nick cousins
here you have jayden struble (#47 in red) and nick cousins (#21 in white). cousins plays for the senators. struble plays for the canadiens. keep in mind, these teams have a bit of a rivalry. not bruins/canadiens old, but its been a fiery one lately, so there's history here)
this one is interesting because it goes back to the last time these teams played vs each other.
this is nick cousins (#21, in a different jersey) slashing (attempting to injure) the canadiens best rookie player ivan demidov (#93 in white and red).
now, this doesn't look like a massive deal but every player knows how dangerous that is. that kind of slash is how you break a wrist of a player and take them out for months. this could also effect his career as a whole, because again, wrists.
this is, pretty clearly, a purposeful play. this is something a team feels the absolute need to fight after.
so now, a few days later, the canadiens and senators are going up against one another and its #47 vs #21.
it's pretty clear who won that fight, but post-game it was revealed that #21 had been avoiding a fight all game long. this is disapproved of, because it's expected that he will sooner or later answer the bell for a dirty play he made. this is part of why the size mismatch in this matchup wasn't such a big deal. that, plus that they have similar fighting experience.
(creamsicle try not to bring her fave team into the convo challenge, challenge failed)
