dissociation & wonder

just a place to figure things out

[intermascfem]

I should not have to be put in a position where I can’t relate to other trans people or believe my input is useless because i’m intersex

Consider intersex people in your trans activism or else

[cascadianights]

I think all these things can be true:

-All trans people are whichever gender their attacker can use to hate and denigrate them most effectively, and face similar and overlapping (never opposite) forms of discrimination

-Transmisogyny and transandrophobia are both unique ASPECTS of this discrimination that CAN be experienced by any trans person (bc bigotry is stored in the bigot), but are most OFTEN used against people perceived as transfemine and transmasculine respectively

-There are unique experiences and ways these forms of oppression intertwine with general forms of misogyny and the oppression of men seen as not performing the Correct Masculinity (non-white cis straight and able bodied masc people). These unique forms of oppression need language and description and to be talked about in order to articulate and fight against them, HOWEVER, they are not and never will be the OPPOSITE or "better version" of what the trans person perceived as the Other End of that spectrum of oppression is battling. They have LARGE overlaps of who is touched by them and in what circumstances, of how they hold people away from jobs or places in society, and of how they are used to punish us for being the Wrong Genders in the Wrong Way.

-Intersex, nonbinary, agender, two-spirit, and many people presenting as a butch woman or a femme man are especially often affected by any and ALL forms of transphobia. When you start separating people into identity groups by the TYPES of discrimination they can face, rather than their CLAIMED identities, you are inevitably cutting out everyone on the borders and overlap of that type of discrimination while also presenting a false "us v them," "TMA vs those Others," dichotomy that is NOT useful. This method sorts other people by the assumptions of the speaker and their experiences rather than the identity they claim, erases everyone & their experiences in the grey in-between and overlaps, and fails to articulate anything about the oppression faced that the original conversations don't already cover. It also leans into the idea that anyone can be EXEMPT from a type of bigotry, which again fails to take into account that the assumptions of who you are and should be are stored IN THE BIGOT - for an example, look at the transmisogyny facing cis women (especially black women) who look "too masculine" in sports.

-Trans people all face both unique and overlapping forms of discrimination, all of which are manifestations of a mixture of racism sexism classism and transphobia, and all of which have more in common with other forms of trans and gender discrimination than they have discrete, separate, or "opposite" experiences of oppression. There is no core of trans people experiencing something incomprehensibly, radically different than another by gender presentation in the USA. We are all in this together, we are all suffering attacks from many of the same places people and institutions, and it does us FAR more good as a community to recognize what we have in common than arguing over who has it worse, who has it better in an active genocide, and who is "exempt" from oppression.

-Anyone trying to convince you other trans people are your enemy and are living in privilege in a time of mass attack against every level of our healthcare and right to be in public/participate in life is someone who is harming their own community and choosing lateral violence, NOT a role model to be listened to and uplifted. Remember: one of the things we're fighting for is the right for 1 person to be an asshole without it defining everyone in that marginalized group as an asshole. Don't, in turn, let one asshat be the voice in your head speaking for or against the entire breadth of the trans community. If your transfeminism doesn't include trans people all across and off the spectrum as equally valid and crucial to lift and protect, it's not transfeminism it's just repackaged Radfeminism that got us here in the first place. We can do so, so much better than that - together

[charlie-lottie]

[ English is not my native language, I apologize if there are any mistakes. ]

It’s so funny to hear it from people who start off by saying, "We support intersex people!", only to then turn around and claim that being intersex is a "mutation," that intersex people can be neatly divided into "men" and "women," that self-discovery is "invalid," or that if your variation doesn't cause you health issues, you're "not actually intersex"—and other such nonsense.

Last month, in a queer community, I shared my trans and cis experiences, which are tied to my intersex and neurodivergent lived experience. Someone reposted my message to an exclusionist queer channel that supposedly "supports" intersex people. They wrote that no intersex person would ever call themselves "cis+trans," calling it a "disgrace" to the community. They also claimed that unless a doctor has confirmed it, I can’t call myself intersex. On top of that, they called me a 12-year-old girl who's just "attention-seeking"—even though I’m almost 19, and my age was literally listed in my profile.

I just want to say that your "support" for intersex people vanishes the exact moment our actual lived experience becomes inconvenient for you or doesn't fit into your binary worldview.

[isuggestrespectintersexppl]

[ID: a low quality image of a boy in a red polo shirt scratching his head. /End ID.]

I have a suggestion!

[intersexocs]

this is a sign to make your ocs visibly intersex

give that woman facial hair. give her a deep voice give that man breasts. give him a feminine voice

while intersex people can look like anything, dont be afraid to make them look """clocky"" because real intersex people look like that irl too!! give them features to make them look intersex!! mess around with body types, voices, etc.. have fun with it!!

[hermaphro-dyke]

Requirements for intersex transfems are so unbearable. Unless you match the perisex experience your intersex transfem experience will always be seen as less legitimate by transmeds.

Intersex transfems who were always seen as girls I love you

Intersex transfems who had estrogen pushed on them I love you

Intersex transfems who can’t take estrogen I love you

Intersex transfems who have periods I love you

Intersex transfems who weren’t AMAB I love you

Intersex transfems who went through IGM I love you

[williamaftonlikezslushiez]

too all anti endos this is a genuine question and i am sorry if it comes off as rude how is it ableist to believe people can be plural without a cdd(complex dissasociative disorder)?

[thestarseersystem]

I personally don't make that claim, but I do think those that make it are frustrated that complex dissociative disorders are made light of. Like... the idea that trauma isn't involved in the alter process, when that's the only way alters actually form, is through dissociative barriers. So people see it as others gleefully taking part in what is essentially a "roleplay" of systemhood. Which, in my opinion, isn't what's happening. I think even systems who claim being "endogenic" are experiencing dissociative issues, but may not be aware of trauma or underlying issues that they have.

For example, complex dissociative disorders such as DID and OSDD form in childhood before we develop a fully integrated personality, or at least, where we're supposed to. And most people do end up developing that integrated self, but those that don't have alters. It's a part of that process of traumatic dissociation, a type of survival mechanism, also known as traumatic shock, referred to as "playing dead", freeze response, etc. Most people only ever develop fight or flight, but when trauma cannot be dealt with, and the child brain cannot rely on anyone else, it separates, rejects/represses, and creates alters. The alter process cannot happen any other way, they only form from dissociation, because otherwise, you would not be a system, you'd just have an integrated personality.

People obviously take this frustration about this issue being invalidated or ignored, or get triggered by other people ignoring it, and take it out on them, which honestly, I don't think they should, but it's the internet, what are you going to do?

So while I personally don't think it's ableism that people insist upon not experiencing trauma or dissociation, I think it's misleading and just factually incorrect. Like.. I am positive many systems who believe they had imaginary friends growing up, or made ocs that ended up later showing up as alters, have some form of nonverbal communication in their system, where they don't realize they're already aware of alters, at least on a subconscious level. So even with some systems claiming they didn't go anything bad enough, or at all to form alters, I take that with a massive grain of salt, knowing what I know about how systems are formed, and how trauma is repressed.

TL;DR: Some systems get triggered by others claiming "no trauma", either feeling invalidated, ignored or simply misunderstood, and see the denial of truth/factual evidence as ableism. I personally don't say endogenic systems are ableist, but I do take the claim that they're "endogenic" in the first place, with a grain of salt, as alters are caused by dissociation factually.

[bathhousekitty]

No, amnesia isn’t *just* blacking out and coming to like you’ve passed out.

Amnesia is the lack of memory. It’s completely omitted from your mind. It’s akin to trying to remember before you were born. It’s simply impossible! You had no awareness before you’re born, and that lack of awareness is the same for amnesia.

Those who have not experienced it can only piece together what it is like through the accounts of those who have it, which leads to this popular idea of it being a hard transition from point a to point b. (Which it can be!!) But, it’s much more complex than just a singular expression. It can, and in my case, look like your mind blocking off the bad parts of a moment and keeping the parts it’s okay with to fill in the gap of time. That’s why things seem to happen so fast for those of us with it! Because we are experiencing that time— just way faster because we forget half of the moment we experienced.

The way it’s portrayed in such a single, specific way bothers me… （´-`）.｡oO

^ (As a quick edit, my wording was poor when I first wrote this!! Amnesia is not one size fit all and how it’s experienced is different. This is based off my experiences!! Sorry for that 0_0)

[thestarseersystem]

If it helps! There are multiple types of dissociative amnesia

Listed in this article here:

Localized: Memory loss affects everything within a short, specific time period in your life.

Selective: Memory loss affects one event or all events of a certain type within a specific time period in your life. Experts sometimes call this “patchy” amnesia because it affects certain memories but not others.

Generalized: Memory loss affects everything within a longer period (months or years).

Continuous: This is the anterograde form of dissociative amnesia. “Anterograde” means it affects your ability to form new memories, so this is memory loss that happens as events occur.

Systematized: Memory loss that affects everything under a particular topic or category. It can also apply to a specific person or multiple people (like your family).

Dissociative Fugue (added by me, but its what you describe!): where a person experiences sudden, unexpected travel or wandering, coupled with reversible amnesia about their identity.

So it can look like many different things, it does not have to be one!

[deafandbewildered]

“So many anti endos would be happier if they were endo”

Yeah I bet I would be a lot happier LARPing instead of living with the complications of C-PTSD. Are you joking?

Im never going to live a normal life regardless of the amount of “recovery” I do. Theres no such thing as “re”covery for people with C-PTSD, there’s no “before”, there’s nothing to revert back to. My only option for the rest of my life is to put back puzzle pieces and try to make a person that can function. But no I’m glad that you’re having fun playing pretend as your favourite anime characters

[thestarseersystem]

i cannot say enough how much acknowledging the fact that im traumatized is the only thing that helps keep me sane. Like, im not "endo" because I suffered. And I will not pretend that I'm not traumatized just to make others feel comfortable. I spite the world because I hate having to hide who I am. The monsters that live inside of my head, they're as much "me" as any of my other fucking alters.

Like I have anime introject alters too, I have all kinds of alters. But this is who I am. I am traumatized, and I'm not going to hide it just because someone can't accept themselves as much as me. I don't care if I make anyone else uncomfortable, because I'm HAPPIER KNOWING THAT I WAS HURT. I'M HAPPY, KNOWING I WENT THROUGH SOMETHING. AND I APPRECIATE THE DAMN ALTERS THAT HELPED ME THROUGH TOUGH TIMES!

So people with this sentiment can go piss their pants or some shit. Step on a bagillion legos for all I care. My trauma is a part of me. I won't pretend it's okay to reject yourself. I acknowledge and am grateful for the ones who helped me through the tough times.

And I just think it's so... shitty that people continue to live their lives, blind of side of them that had to live through those things in order to survive. Loving yourself means loving every single part of yourself. Even the ones who turned into monsters because of the pain.

[musithical]

having the brain go "nope" when accidentally stumbling across a memory you arent supposed to know about is like the mental equivalent of walking face first into a glass door

[thecacophonyspeaks]

@funnier-as-a-system

[cericertain]

Fuck the perisex people who will cry and complain about "ugly" flags anytime an intersex person does anything..

'Can't put the intersex flag in the lineup of flags, it's too ugly.'

'The progress flag needed to acknowledge poc and trans people but did it need to have the intersex circle? it's just cluttering up space to add every gender and sexuality up there!! It just looks so ugly now..'

Yea sure , just ignore WHY we need to be included and OUR ISSUES because now suddenly aesthetics matter more! Ykw? who gaf about the horrible oppression we face! lets just be constantly ignored and erased in our oppression until somebody needs to use our existence in their argument! /s

Fuck off. Y'all really can't help but find any reason to bitch about intersex people.

[liarsblade]

Yeah you're right. It WOULD be pretty fucked up if you were a swan but you were raised by ducks and you grew up never seeing another swan or even knowing that such a thing as a swan even existed so you just thought you were a duck with something super wrong with it.

[status-quo-hater]

This is what being intersex is like

[intersexcat-tboy]

Why are people pretending that Imane Khelif has received overwhelming support. Why are we ignoring millions of people being transphobic and intersexist in favour of only a fraction having sympathy and support for her? As if the majority of internet results returned in her name aren't violently intersexist and against her?

Having F on her birth certificate has not saved her. Systems can still demand further proof of "eligibility." People still refuse to believe her, insisting she is lying, that she is a trans woman, or that she is a man in disguise.

Legal designation does not protect assignment typical cis intersex women from misogyny, intersexism, or transphobic policing of their bodies. It does not prevent them from being publicly scrutinized, accused, and dehumanized when their bodies do not fit expectations.

So when people try to claim that cis intersex women are overwhelmingly supported in their womanhood, understand that this is false. They are asking you to ignore the reality of how quickly society turns on them the moment their bodies do not fit expectations.

Pretending otherwise is propaganda. People use the lives of people like Imane Khelif to push the idea that there is a clean class of people safely exempt from this kind of oppression, that cis intersex women are automatically protected from systemic transmisogyny because they are "really" female on paper.

Being accused of being a man, having your body publicly dissected, and being treated as fraudulent does not stop being that kind of violence just because someone decides you aren't the "right" kind of victim

The moment someone’s body is seen as suspicious, that supposed exemption disappears. They are still subjected to the same suspicion, humiliation, and violence. This reframing uses the same bioessentialist logic TERFS use to selectively define who is even allowed to "count" as a target of misogynistic violence in the first place

I've also noticed a lack of any mention of Caster Semenya in these conversations as well. I believe this very well could be influenced by misogynoir, however, I am also inclined to believe it is because the majority of the people having these conversations are so new to it that they are completely unfamiliar with her case and how hard cis intersex women have fought for their places in professional sports. This idea is heavily supported by the belief that cis intersex women are widely supported. If they are familiar with her, then they are ignoring her because she proves them wrong, as she is still banned from her favoured sport

[intersexcultureis]

Do you know how small your vagina has to be to count as vaginal hypoplasia?

i do not, and there doesnt seem to be any sort of definitive measurements that i could find. if you suspect you have it, id try to line up symptoms instead of any measurements.

if you have pain inserting things in there that should fit like tampons, sex toys, or even fingers thats a sign you have vaginal hypoplasia. there arent really any other symptoms that are super common other than menstruation issues/lack of any sort of menstration. theres really not a lot to go off of but i would say use your best judgement

[v-hypospadias]

@yourfaveisintersex mentioned the study used on wikipedia is p small:

A 1996 study by Pendergrass et al. using vinyl polysiloxane castings taken from the vaginas of 39 Caucasian women, found the following ranges of dimensions: lengths (measured using rods): 6.9 to 14.8 cm (2.7 to 5.8 in); widths: 4.8 to 6.3 cm (1.9 to 2.5 in); introital diameters: 2.4 to 6.5 cm (0.94 to 2.56 in)

so i looked around to see if a better once was out there & found this study (link):

A total of 656 women were approached for enrollment, and 505 (77%) women met eligibility criteria [heterosexual, English-speaking, and had not had prolapse surgery within the past 6 months] and were included in this analysis. Mean age was 53.6±10.8 years, and 333 (67%) reported sexual activity. TVL [total vaginal length] ranged from 5 to 13 cm, and GH [genital hiatus] ranged from 0.5 to 7 cm. Nine women had TVL shorter than 7 cm. ... Mean TVL: 9.1 cm±1.2 (sexually active) 8.9 cm±1.3 (sexually inactive) Mean GH 3.2 cm±1.1 (sexually active) 3.1 cm±1.1 (sexually inactive)

genital hiatus is defined as "the distance between the urethral meatus and the posterior margin of the hymen."

i find this interesting info for both vaginal hypoplasia & vulvar hypospadias. that only 9/505 women (1.7% of the sample) had a TVL less than 7 cm is. pretty wild to hear for me!! can't measure as accurately as doctors can, but id say my TVL & GH are on the lowest or past the lowest measurements here (for reference, I have vaginal hypoplasia & partial hypospadias, & ≤6 cm / ≤1 cm). this data might be helpful for others in figuring out where they fall in terms of averages.

[ramenheim]

Emi Koyama has passed. 🥀

[genderkoolaid]

Extremely sad to see. She was apparently only 51.

Folks, if you don't know who Emi Koyama was, you should. Her website (eminism.org, which is a delightful pun) has a ton of her work entirely for free.

You can read the Transfeminist Manifesto in particular here. Emi considered it a historical document and she wrote a very good self-critique in 2008 (included in the document) on the subject of the Manifesto, white feminism, and the lack of inclusion of trans and genderqueer people who aren't trans women. I highly encourage everyone who wants to involve themselves in transfeminism to read her work, not because it is perfect, but because I do think Emi Koyama's Manifesto represents the best intentions for transfeminism: the desire to challenge cissexism, to take activism seriously and compassionately, and a commitment to being open and honest about where we fall short and how we can do better.

I really appreciate this quote from her, which I hadn't seen before, on the subject of feminism needing to "fit in" trans people:

Cis feminists do not own feminism. We don't need to "fit trans people into feminist theory"; we simply need to challenge cissexism in feminist movements and theories. Trans people do not need to be explained by feminist theory; we need to start from the fact that trans people exist and matter.

And it would be a crime to not mention how hard she fought specifically for women of color, to challenge racism and imperialism (white/western and non-white/non-western) in feminist spaces and in general, as well as her intersex activism, and far more. She had such a drive to contribute to, engage with, and push for more and better feminist discourse.

You will be remembered fondly, Emi Koyama. Thank you for all your work and for all your life.

[mercurial-tboy]

Holy shit there's an actually good diagram on the Wikipedia page for hypospadias!!!

Props to user Nonbinary-Naturalist for uploading this to Wikimedia Commons!

[lace-adorned-creature]

I've been wondering this for a little while - did any other intersex people just kind of Know, subconsciously, even before finding out about it? I've only recently really found all of this out, and my variation is mainly hormonal with no genital aspects to it, so there's nothing glaringly obvious to say I'm intersex. But finding it out, it didn't feel like a new, unfamiliar thing - it felt like something was clicking into place. Like, at some level, I knew already. I've always been sort of drawn to the "concept" of people being intersex, but I very consciously avoided it because I felt like I was being creepy or fetishistic. Turns out it just applied to me.

My transition (FtM) never really did strictly feel like I started at female, either. Stating I'm biologically a perisex female has always felt wrong, even though, by all accounts, I did fully believe that's what I was. I don't know.

Tldr; has anyone else experienced this or am I going insane hahaha

[myirlnameiscloud]

Being reassigned a sex after birth is easily one of the craziest things that has ever happened to me as an intersex person, and I almost never see any discussion of it within the intersex community. Like, there's so much nuance to this!! There's so much to talk about here! Istg the only reason it's not as talked about is because people who were reassigned a sex after birth have almost always experienced CIMI, and even within the intersex community, those who have suffered CIMI often have their voices silenced.

Like. One day I'm expected by doctors to "act female," the next I'm expected to "act male." One week I'm forced to take estrogen and progesterone, the next I'm given testosterone instead. (I love T don't worry) Some of my older legal documents say "F", some newer ones say "M". Is that not crazy?? And I feel like I should be grateful for it as a trans man, but honestly I wish sex assignment would just go away forever.