“No, it really isn’t. You state he as platonic towards her, but the simple fact is you’re overlooking a significant amount of interaction and behavior that go far beyond how he acts with other individuals, including the supposed person he had a crush on, Sakura.”
I’m not. One person being nice to another =/= romance.
And Naruto does more than just ‘be nice’ to Hinata. You’re, again, being vastly disingenuous.
“Except that exact quote was about how widely it is percieved that Naruto’s feelings for Hinata were based in guilt”
Right. I took no issue with your response about that. It was the implication that people who didn’t like the manga were minor.
Except I never made such an implication, nor would such an implication have any bearing. You’re attempting to score points on something I never said and that is irrelevant.
“Including ‘people who don’t like Naruto’ is disingenuous.”
People who don’t like Naruto are anti-Naruto. That’s what the “anti” part implies. In what way is that disingenuous? -_-
Again, my issue on this point comes from what appears to be you insisting that people who don’t like the manga are minor and that most like it. This is not true outside of, maybe, fans on tumblr. If that is not your meaning then we have no issue here. But that is what it looked like.
Not necessarily. A lot of folks don’t like Naruto but aren’t part of the anti side of the fandom, nor is that how it is commonly used. A lot of folks who don’t like Naruto are simply not fans, and never have been. They don’t exist in the fandom space in any appreciable way. The point is the folks who have some sort of vocal opposition to the manga and ending in particular, IE: people who actually read the manga all the way through, make up a relatively small section of the fandom.
At best, this is an issues of a failure of terms to be defined, which is understandable, I suppose.
“Actually, he stated explaining why Sakura liked Sasuke would be contrived, which is not quite the same thing at all. “
He also didn’t show us why Sasuke like Sakura either. -_-
Somewhat, yes, but that wasn’t the point either. That doesn’t make it ambiguous, it just makes it unexplained.
“He didn’t leave the reason why SS happened open, he just never addressed why Sakura was so into Sasuke. Which, yeah, is a notable flaw, but is not the same as saying the marriage of Sasuke and Sakura is ambiguous.”
That is leaving their relationship ambiguous. Many people marry for many different reasons. Love is not required for them. And as pointed out by Sarada there’s no evidence that they even did get married outside of Sakura taking the clan name and their repeated use of “husband” “wife”. And even the ending doesn’t resolve it much, what with Sasuke simply leaving again and no discussion about the relationship beyond they’re connected because they’ve had a kid.
Except they’ve plainly set up the love aspect. What Sarada stated falls flat given Sasuke confirms they are married, and we, as readers, are privy to meta information that in universe characters are not. Stating nothing says they’re married except their statement they are is misleading, as we’re told they are out of universe, AND even IN universe w hat more are you asking for. Their relationship is hardly ambiguous.
Further, Sasuke does not say they are connected because they have a kid, IE: the kid is why they are connected, he says she’s proof they ARE connected, IE: they are connected, and Sarada is the embodiment of that. Those are fundamentally different statements.
“It’s not. While one could state Sakura’s reason for liking Sasuke is ambiguous, the fact she does is not, and while I’m not a SS shipper, and have written critically about how it has been done, it’s hardly ‘ambiguous’ in the ending.
So is Sasuke’s, if he even does. And their relationship is ambiguous in the ending thanks to Sasuke not being there.
“The very fact that they have a child, and refer to each other with affectionate terms, and speak in the idea of being connected and the like makes it intentionally unambiguous.”
That Sasuke has not been home in decades and even after his mission is completed doesn’t return – and Kishi has flat said he doesn’t know if he will does throw confusion into their relationship. This is by design.
Your statement ‘this is by design’ is conjecture with no basis.
Further, that does not throw their relationship into confusion at all. Their relationship is a known quantity.
“Except Naruto shares very little with Minato aside from visual look and a few habits, namely naming jutsu, and he’s far less over the top than even Minato is. He is, for the most part, Kushina in attitude. We’re even explicitly told this.”
So, Naruto shares traits with both. How am I incorrect there? -_-
Your wrong because your stating he’s ‘like Minato and Kushina’ when, in reality, he really ISN’T like Minato. In the same way folks claiming Boruto is a clone of Naruto is blatantly false. They look similar, but share little else.
“Hinata shares some traits with Minato, and your attempt to pretend she doesn’t is a bit silly.”
She doesn’t. Manga-Minato wasn’t shy, didn’t have problems standing up for himself, wasn’t weak, wasn’t part of some legendary clan, was an only child, and on and on. They’re both polite I guess, but that’s about it, and even that’s questionable because of where their politeness comes from.
They’re polite, respectful, quiet, etc. The issue you have here is you’re being rather selective with what constitutes Hinata’s traits, and going with purely superficial elements rather than actual character personality.
“That, however, wasn’t what I said anyway, so this is all superfluous. What I said was that NaruHina in RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS resembles MinaKushi. Which is to say, if you compare relationship arcs, they have similar elements, back even to the start where we have Naruto’s a ‘a dark, weird girl’ comment to Kushina saying Minato basically looked like an unreliable pansy.”
Kushina didn’t like anyone though, so that she thought ill of Minato isn’t meant to be a mirror to how Naruto felt about Hinata. And there’s no evidence that Minato was obsessively enamored with her the way Hinata was Naruto. If the only similarity you’ve got is that one of them didn’t think much of the other – and it’s the kind of similarity that’s so general it’s pointless. So no. MinaKush is one thing. NaruHina is another. Full stop.
We aren’t necessarily told she didn’t like anyone, and Naruto didn’t like anyone really either, sparing his crush on Sakura. Your use of the term ‘obsessively enamored’ is also something of a weaselly statement because Hinata was not ‘obsessively enamored’ with Naruto. She admired him, and respected him. Further, the turning point of their relationship being the moment they were ‘saved’ by the person, which, shockingly, has their expressions rather clearly paralleled too.
So yes, MinaKushi is one thing, and NaruHina is another, but they DO parallel each other.
“Except that’s an incredibly simplistic view of things, and vastly understates the actual way of things. The issue wasn’t that they were being trained to use their magical powers, some of which, yeah, can be used to kill. The point was that there was a political situation that created wars and conflicts those kids were used as soldiers in. A political situation that has been fundamentally changed due to Naruto.”
It hasn’t been. There are still rival factions who have differences. Once more, if Naruto were to die tomorrow what is keeping the same problems from happening again? Nothing.
It absolutely has been. Stating there are ‘rival factions’ is incredibly reductive again. The Kage are meeting as partners, villages are intermarrying, etc. If Naruto was to die tomorrow what’s keeping the issues? Well, all the major leaders subscribe to his ideologies and were his friends, for one.
You simply don’t know what you are talking about.
“And yeah, if Naruto dies, there still would be fundamental changes to that organizational structure to help prevent wars, but nothing is a guarantee. That was apparently the point you missed out on. To wit…”
What? Name one. There are still Kage, kids are still being trained to kill. The only difference is most of the Kage are personal friends now. Nothing has changed politically.
There are Kage who are bound by an ideology inside the Shinobi Union, there are villages who are now intermarrying, there is radical growth of economics and technology. Your being hung up on this ‘kids trained to kill’ shit which isn’t even entirely accurate. They’re being trained to be shinobi, which is more than killing people. It’s as much an aspect of the culture as anything.
“We could get into arguments about if this Orochimaru is the same Orochimaru, due to the vagaries of cloning and the like, but the real question is in what way is house arrest ‘free?’”
In what way is it house arrest? Or do you think that Orochimaru got his equipment to create shin from Ebay and it was just allowed? His lab isn’t a prison and it’s clear he’s been coming and going on his own for a while. Heck, Karin - who is also a terrorist - is said to be at anotherbase, so Orochimaru has more than one. Naruto’s people are watching him, but doing nothing.
You’re not paying attention. Shin predates Gaiden. His arm was the arm Danzo had, meaning he existed before the ending. Which, I mean, is par for the course of you, frankly, not paying attention or knowing what you’re talking about. Saying ‘it’s clear he’s been coming and going’ is a lie, it’s not clear. And even if he was, what exactly do you suggest? He’s not a pushover, and indeed is safer doing what he’s doing than actively plotting against the world because they’re plotting against him. His assistance during the last war is a thing, after all, as is Karin’s. The fact their being monitored very much makes it akin to house arrest.
“And what do you expect him do do. And yeah, there are no wars NOW, because they’re attempting to resolve issues in other ways.
Actual prison would be a great start. Keeping him from continuing his cloning experiments wouldn’t hurt. You know, things a hero should be thinking about when a known supervillain is a neighbor.
Well, as I said, cloning experiments were prior, for one. For two, what prison is going to hold him? And why the hell waste the resources on it?
“And the real issue is that you completely misunderstood the whole prophecy line and missed that Sasuke was named as one too, as were several others, because the whole point was that destiny didn’t set up Naruto, Naruto rose to fulfill a need in the world. Which is why the prophecy was so fucking vague. And, as it would be, the irony is he DID fulfill the prophecy, alongside Sasuke, and alongside a lot of other characters.
So, once again, you’re completely wrong.”
If Naruto died tomorrow, there is nothing that would stop the cycle of hatred from happening again after a generation. Children are still being bred to be soldiers, the problems of the world haven’t been solved, and we’re given no sense of what it is Naruto’s plan for peace was.
This is a blatant lie. Now you’re using the term children being BRED to be soldiers, which is abolutely 100% untrue. The problems are being actively worked on, and we’re SHOWN what his plan for peace was, and its WORKING. The thing that stops the cycle was bonds. Seriously, all of folks, ALL of them, who hated the ending to the point they’d post about it demonstrate such a poor grasp of the story that I can’t help but understand. Of course they think it’s bad, they weren’t paying attention.
“Ok, but you now show YOUR hand by saying ‘more than likely he just wants to fight the guy that got away,’ and ignoring him checking on Sakura and literally destroying the things that harmed her in that fight. You’re the one ignoring any behavior in which he shows affection or respect. Which, incidentally, saying your wife isn’t weak apparently isn’t a showing of affection now.”<-emphasis mine
Please stop putting words in my mouth, it’s lazy. Who said he didn’trespect her? As I pointed out he thinks she can handle herself. I questioned him rushing for her out of affection. He shows up, finds she couldn’t really handle herself (because of course she didn’t, shes a woman in a Kishimoto manga) pulls some weapons out. then says “you can handle yourself right?” Did you think Sasuke would leave kunai in her? Naruto wasn’t going to touch her, he’s a clearly married man and her husband is there. Sasuke respects her (now). The argument isaffection, defined as “a gentle feeling of fondness or liking” which Sasuke doesn’t show her much of. If anything.
You’ve got some nerve talking about putting words in someones mouth, and calling it lazy. This argument that it’s not about him doing it out of affection is blatantly asinine. Sasuke didn’t have to do anything. He didn’t have to remove them, she could have. Yet he not only helps remove, he literally destroys them. Your attempt to be narrow about what affection stands for is a bit odd, too, because Sasuke shows THAT EXACT THING IN HOW HE SPEAKS.
“Actually, even in the link you provide, the more accurate could be it would be UNCHARACTERISTIC of her, not ‘she’s a bitch.’”
Absolutely false. That’s OrganicDinosaurs opinion on what he meant, and she makes a point to say that she would never post it. That is her‘loose’ translation for a reason. The translation she says is most literally what he says is: “From considerably beforehand, it was decided to be Hinata. The reason is that in whether using Sakura, (there was) a period of time (where I) hesitated/doubted, to come to here, Sakura came to/had changed her mind towards Naruto, and as expected, I suppose Sakura (would have) surpassed/go beyond (being) a cruel/awful woman. (Kishimoto laughs). Moreover, Sakura practically/in reality, someway or another, thinks and (really/surely) regards Sasuke wholeheartedly.”
And the translation she says is the only one she’s comfortable with showing is:
“Less literal (this is as comfortable as I would be in posting a translation, if I had to make it looser)From considerably beforehand, it was decided to be Hinata. However, because there was also a period of time when I hesitated about whether or not to use Sakura (in the role instead of Hinata.). For Sakura to come to here, if I had made her have a change of mind towards Naruto, as expected of that, Sakura would have been an overly “terrible” woman, probably. Moreover, Sakura practically, someway or another, regards Sasuke wholeheartedly, I think.”
You are once again being disingenuous.
Hardly, because it doesn’t matter, the point remains fundamentally the same. The outright statement is that she’d be terrible, and is wholeheartedly towards Sasuke. But you refuse to apply context. Seriously, you just HATE context, you fucking loathe it, you always exclude it, and pretend it’s not there. Because you HAVE to. It’s literally the only way you argument ever makes any SENSE, and even then, it falls apart once you DO apply context.
Hidoi onna is sometimes used as japanese slang for bitch, as seen here. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ochawan
It’s definitely not fickle.
Good on you for at least skimming the link this time though. ;-)
Contextually speaking, it very much could be called fickle. Deal.
“But hey, excuse me for paraphrasing the rather clear fucking intent of the statement.”
It is not clear. It is, once more, your interpretation based on yourpersonal bias, much like OrganicDinosaur’s “uncharacteristic of [Sakura]” is hers. And what’s more it’s wrong. Fickle is not now, nor has it ever been, a thing Kishimoto said, nor a thing that was meant.
By this logic, you can’t absolutely say it WASN’T what Kishimoto meant. But I’m absolutely comfortable reading context and saying what it does mean. You can’t make the argument its my personal interpretation and vague, then make a declarative statement of what it means. That is disingenuous to the highest degree, and extremely intellectually dishonest..
“Because it wouldn’t at all seem uncharacteristic or terrible for her to completely reverse her character arc.”
If her only character arc was her love for Sasuke you might have a point. But it wasn’t. And again, considering everything Sasuke has done to her, Sakura falling out of love with him would be normal human behavior; as would falling in love with Naruto given their relationship. Thinking ill of her because she would have made an objectively better choice of mate, simply because she’s been after one longer, is slut-shaming.
Except her love for Sasuke was absolutely PART of her character arc and would have fundamentally altered it. As for ‘normanl human behavior,’ so would Naruto giving up on Sasuke. We’re not dealing with ‘normal humans’ here. It absolutely is not ‘slut shaming,’ you’re applying a new context not found, and also fundamentally altering the statement.
“Trying to throw this ‘oh, it’s sexist’ card misses the fucking point entirely, which, I mean, is a habit with you though. And the irony is he makes a joke about Hinata’s breasts, and remarks about Sakura not being pretty enough… and then folks bash Hinata’s breasts and and Sakura for being ‘ugly’ and just… like, you talked about folks being haters earlier but now apparently conveniently ignore their behavior.”
What? Where have I ignored that behavior if I’ve discussed that behavior earlier? That Kishimoto does it doesn’t mean he’s the only one, nor does it make it right. That behavior is sexist, regardless of the person doing it. But that a bunch of people are terrible human beings does not somehow excuse Kishimoto.
Seriously, where did this come from?
The point is you act as if Kishimoto’s jokes and comments are sexist, because… reasons, rather than based in observable reality. Sakura HAS been hated and called ‘ugly.’ Hinata HAS been bashed and also talked about for her breasts. Acknowledging those facts is not ‘sexism,’ its observable truths. The fact is you seem unable to make the connection.
And the funny thing is, I’m not even saying he’s not sexist. He comes from a very much traditionalist society so I suspect very much he is. I’m just saying these examples fall flat and also show your inability to make connections.
“The one who is being disingenuous is you. Again.”
Negative, provable truth, as always.
“You’re missing the point, so let me walk you through it. If you focus so much on those emotions, and the connection between characters (and you may want to deny it, but you deny a lot of things I can literally point to conclusively,) only to have him ignore all of it, and thus reverse both Naruto and Sakura’s characters as a result, yeah, it would have been sad. You can justify it as saying it might make Hinata a better character, but it would be sad regardless. Folks would feel empathy, they’d feel sorry for her. Which is exactly what Kishimoto said he’d feel.”
Not hooking up Naruto and Hinata doesn’t require one to ignore anything that came before. And it might be sad for shippers, but if handled correctly would just be bittersweet at worst to the rest of us. Heck, a great writer could write a situation where Hinata comes outbetter for not hooking up with him. Kishi isn’t that great writer, but Naruto not being with Hinata wouldn’t be the end of the world. Heck, Naruto hooking up with no one wouldn’t ruin the manga.
Except that’s utterly false, it would have required ignoring a lot. Your insistence it’s just ‘shippers’ who would be sad, as if that’s the issue here. And guess what, bittersweet is still sad. You still feel pity and empathy for bittersweet things. I never said it would ‘ruin the manga’ nor be ‘the end of the world,’ but it absolutely would leave a lot of characterization utterly superfluous. Actually, Kishimoto COULD have written it, arguably. The issue is he never did. Which means that by the ending, it would have taken a significant time to write that in a way that wasn’t a hack job, that didn’t leave all the focus on those emotions and the interactions between the two a fundamentally empty in retrospect.
“And further, it would have still made, by an large, the focus on those emotions and goals pointless. But instead, you have to try to jab as many times as you can at Kishimoto. I’ve never claimed he’s a master writer, but he’s far better than folks give credit. Further, you’re adding an extra thing here. You don’t think they’d come to nothing. But had 700 rolled around, just reversed so Naruto and Sakura were together, yes, it would have been bad writing and they’d have come to nothing. The amount of necessary work through to make it not having come to nothing would have required more than that chapter to really justify and avoid being bad writing of the nth degree.”
Well, you’re right about Naruto and Sakura being together being bad. But again, this would be no problem at all if the manga was well written. Characters with Hinata’s romantic arc happen often (usually in shojo, but I digress) and manage to be just fine if they lose out. Again, it seems like you’ve put far more weight into the ship than is necessary.
Your basic argument boils to ‘if the manga was written differently, it could be different, and therefor better.’ Which is irrelevent. Because the manga is written the way it is. We’re not making a value argument here, we’re talking about what is or is not true. No, it has nothing to do with putting weight in the ship, but it’s an easy excuse for you to use. False, but easy.
“That would work, if you could point out material I’m twisting and material I’m ignoring. Except you can’t, because the one example you used doesn’t even support your own claims.”
One example? I’ve pointed to several over our many discussions. And one of them this time you admit to “paraphrasing”, which isn’t even the half of it. Not even OrganicDinosaur and her “uncharacteristic” super-loose translation says anything about Naruto or Sasuke’s cool status. And she flat out says she’d never use that translation. Never.
You’ve pointed out several things and been wrong every time. Saying I ‘admit to paraphrasing’ isn’t one, because the core principle remains the same. Your inability in ANY context to READ context seems more the issue here.
I’d say that to you but you frankly cannot manage a decent argument and show fundamental lackings in basic comprehension of the material we’re discussing, but you’re welcome to keep trying, and making a fool of yourself over and over again. I’m sure the clapping seals of the anti-fandom will bark their praise.
