Bad Wolf Unfiltered

Main is StarryReverie. I usually post on reverie-de-la-rose. But this is where I am going to keep my most controversial stuff. Most of the time.

[06badwolf]

I should probably introduce this blog. This is basically a blog to put my controversial thoughts when I don’t want to weigh down my main Doctor Who blog or my main main blog with too much of it. My name “06badwolf” isn’t just a reference to the Bad Wolf storyline in Doctor Who. It’s also a reference to a famous Yellowstone wolf called “the 06 female”. She was known for being one of the strongest, toughest, and bravest wolves in Yellowstone. A fierce mother and a wolf who was able to take down elk by herself before she started her family. So in a way she was the OG bad wolf.

My header is also a Taylor Swift reference. The flowers there are crown of thorns. Literally poison thorny flowers as mentioned in “CANCELLED!”

[looneyslounge]

[manateeinmoline]

This. Ask yourself “what did the Doctor do for River to prove his love?”

Nothing. He left her to the weeping angels.

But Rose. He BURNED UP A SUN JUST TO SAY GOODBYE. Did he have to do that? Absolutely not. She was in the parallel universe; he could have just moved on. But he couldn’t. He HAD to see her, even if one last time.

(And let’s not forget that he literally gave her a piece of himself too)

And had Rose asked him to get her; had she admitted SHE was the pregnant one, he would have stopped at nothing to get her back.

Don’t come at me with the River shit. She isn’t the Doctor’s OTP. Rose is. Actions speak louder than words. And burning up a sun is screaming. ☀️

[shitterly]

The Doctor never loved anyone as much as Clara. He trapped himself in a loop for four and a half BILLION years just for the most remote chance of being able to save her life. This is by far the biggest gesture he has ever done for a companion he loved, if we’re going by that logic.

Truly, Clara is the Doctor’s OTP, the only one who has ever matched him. No other relationship ever comes close to that

[06badwolf]

Yes, Clara mattered deeply to the Doctor. FAR more than River. But Rose never died and he was still willing to destroy an entire potential solar system just to say goodbye to her. Breaking time for her would have risked her life and she was already alive with her parents alive. Rose Tyler’s dad died and the Doctor was willing to die to try to keep him alive. I can see someone who doesn’t like Rose feeling that in TV canon they’re the correct ones choosing Clara but then there’s EU where the Doctor sculpts Rose from memory and admits to himself in private how much he loves Rose. Where he is also willing to break time for her if she were to actually die. Etc. etc. The confession dial is a great act of care but far from something that can prove anything against a companion that was lost while alive.

[shitterly]

he was in orbit around a supernova. it was a star that was already dead

[shitterly]

because… he didn’t need to? no other companion was trapped in a parallel universe that required him to use a supernova to communicate with them 😭😭

[shitterly]

of course he didn’t have to but he did it because rose meant a lot to him. i am not denying that. the doctor loved rose!

what i don’t get is the implication he wouldn’t have done it for anyone else

he didn’t do it to amy and rory because for whatever reason moffat decided to write it so that the doctor could never talk to them again without destroying the entire universe for reasons that don’t entirely make sense, but whatever

moffat seemed to buy into the idea that it was impossible to change your own history more than RTD, but this all seems to be down to different writer philosophies. like river song’s death was a fixed event in the doctor’s history that he couldn’t reverse. maybe RTD would have written a way out of it, but moffat chose not to

but he did have the future doctor devise a way to save river’s life via the data ghost. he didn’t need to do that either, but clearly she meant enough to the future doctor that he could not bear to have her no longer exist, even only in digital form

of course the doctor loved rose. it’s canon! but thasmin, 11river and 12river and even 12clara are all canon too. and i think it’s silly to try and objectively rate which relationship meant the most when i’m sure the writers themselves wouldn’t agree on things

[06badwolf]

*sigh* you somehow managed to find another one of my friends to try to dig your claws into. You adamantly claimed that Clara is the most beloved companion by the Doctor. That it’s undeniable that the Doctor was madly in love with River. But now that you’re backed into a corner, it’s “Kumbayah it’s dumb to try to argue this at all time”. You tried and failed to make your position subjectively correct so you’re backpedaling. Which is just insanely obvious.

And out of universe writer reasons and in universe canon of what happened are two different things. No, the writers themselves would not agree. But that doesn’t change the actual events and evidence we have.

And the fact that “I’m BURNING up a sun” directly implies actively destroying that sun btw.

enjoy whatever you enjoy. But trying to come after people for stating valid evidenced backed interpretations will always lead you nowhere.

[manateeinmoline]

This. Ask yourself “what did the Doctor do for River to prove his love?”

Nothing. He left her to the weeping angels.

But Rose. He BURNED UP A SUN JUST TO SAY GOODBYE. Did he have to do that? Absolutely not. She was in the parallel universe; he could have just moved on. But he couldn’t. He HAD to see her, even if one last time.

(And let’s not forget that he literally gave her a piece of himself too)

And had Rose asked him to get her; had she admitted SHE was the pregnant one, he would have stopped at nothing to get her back.

Don’t come at me with the River shit. She isn’t the Doctor’s OTP. Rose is. Actions speak louder than words. And burning up a sun is screaming. ☀️

[shitterly]

The Doctor never loved anyone as much as Clara. He trapped himself in a loop for four and a half BILLION years just for the most remote chance of being able to save her life. This is by far the biggest gesture he has ever done for a companion he loved, if we’re going by that logic.

Truly, Clara is the Doctor’s OTP, the only one who has ever matched him. No other relationship ever comes close to that

[06badwolf]

Yes, Clara mattered deeply to the Doctor. FAR more than River. But Rose never died and he was still willing to destroy an entire potential solar system just to say goodbye to her. Breaking time for her would have risked her life and she was already alive with her parents alive. Rose Tyler’s dad died and the Doctor was willing to die to try to keep him alive. I can see someone who doesn’t like Rose feeling that in TV canon they’re the correct ones choosing Clara but then there’s EU where the Doctor sculpts Rose from memory and admits to himself in private how much he loves Rose. Where he is also willing to break time for her if she were to actually die. Etc. etc. The confession dial is a great act of care but far from something that can prove anything against a companion that was lost while alive.

[shitterly]

he was in orbit around a supernova. it was a star that was already dead

[06badwolf]

“I’m burning up a sun just to say goodbye”. Implies he made the supernova.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[sublimewizardbread]

I will say it again and again if I have to. The „wedding“ we see on screen is not a valid Timelord wedding since the Doctor doesn’t tell her his name.

We don’t have confirmation how River got his name. But it wasn’t at their „wedding“.

Also, I have joined the fandom more recently and have not been here since 2012, so to me it’s all fresh. If you have a problem with that, guess what? Scroll. But don’t come under my post or my friends reposts and act as if we are wrong, when we KNOW that we are right.

There ain’t a single argument you could throw my way that would change my mind, and make me admit that I am „wrong“ when I know for a fact that I’m not.

[shitterly]

“it wasn’t a valid time lord wedding” LMFAO WHO CARES? why does it have to be a time lord ceremony to be legit? i know people who have had unofficial wedding ceremonies in their countries where gay marriage is still illegal. those wedding ceremonies weren’t valid - but don’t you dare imply they are not legitimate

the doctor clearly views it as binding based on his actions in the husbands of river song; 13’s statements about her wife in legend of the sea devils etc

you’re allowed to not like it! i am not a particularly big fan of it. i much prefer ships like 4romana, 12clara and thasmin. but this shit about trying to prove your headcanons to be the objective truth is totally immature and silly behaviour

sure, “death of the author” and all, but it’s literally confirmed by all of the people who worked on the show at the time that they were portraying

there is no canonical OTP in the show. you are allowed to believe what you want, but acting like you ‘know’ something everyone else doesn’t is arrogant and utterly bizarre

[sublimewizardbread]

WOW. Comparing a fictional wedding with gay marriage that is sadly still illegal in some countries is wild to me.

If you take the time as an author or screenwriter or whatever to tell the audience how a proper timelord wedding goes, and then show us one that does not follow those rules then that has a reason.

Also, it’s not a headcanon that Rose meant more to the Doctor than River ever did.

Do you think he would have let Rose have to EVER break her own wrist to get out of a weeping angels grip?

Do you think he would have ever just accepted that Rose would die because he saw her death happening, since they meet in the incorrect order?

If you actually think he would have ever treated Rose like he treated River then you need a crash course in media literacy.

And if you think that anything in the Doctor’s and Rivers relationship portrays love then….I don’t know, get a dictionary and look for the word love and it’s definition.

[shitterly]

you remind me of 8 year old children arguing over whether spiderman could beat superman in a fight

you’re literally powerscaling fictional relationships lmfaooooo

[sublimewizardbread]

And here we have a perfect example of someone being mad about losing an argument and then pulling the „it’s an immature thing to argue about anyway“ card.

[shitterly]

losing an argument? how do you lose something that’s entirely subjective. it’s like saying someone is losing an argument over whether mac and cheese is tasty or not 😭

[06badwolf]

The person who claims it’s undeniable and not subjective at all that the Doctor was madly in love with River Song now says it’s subjective. Fascinating.

[shitterly]

arguing about who loved who most based on how different writers decide to write love stories *is* entirely subjective. it’s crazy. bigger actions do not always equal more love. that’s an incredibly naïve view of romance

[06badwolf]

The person who claims Clara was the Doctor’s greatest love over one big action says bigger actions do not always equal more love. Also fascinating. 📝. Try to keep a straight thesis next time you start an argument. Imma go ahead and do what you should’ve done and block unless or until you bully my friend some more.

[manateeinmoline]

This. Ask yourself “what did the Doctor do for River to prove his love?”

Nothing. He left her to the weeping angels.

But Rose. He BURNED UP A SUN JUST TO SAY GOODBYE. Did he have to do that? Absolutely not. She was in the parallel universe; he could have just moved on. But he couldn’t. He HAD to see her, even if one last time.

(And let’s not forget that he literally gave her a piece of himself too)

And had Rose asked him to get her; had she admitted SHE was the pregnant one, he would have stopped at nothing to get her back.

Don’t come at me with the River shit. She isn’t the Doctor’s OTP. Rose is. Actions speak louder than words. And burning up a sun is screaming. ☀️

[shitterly]

The Doctor never loved anyone as much as Clara. He trapped himself in a loop for four and a half BILLION years just for the most remote chance of being able to save her life. This is by far the biggest gesture he has ever done for a companion he loved, if we’re going by that logic.

Truly, Clara is the Doctor’s OTP, the only one who has ever matched him. No other relationship ever comes close to that

[06badwolf]

Yes, Clara mattered deeply to the Doctor. FAR more than River. But Rose never died and he was still willing to destroy an entire potential solar system just to say goodbye to her. Breaking time for her would have risked her life and she was already alive with her parents alive. Rose Tyler’s dad died and the Doctor was willing to die to try to keep him alive. I can see someone who doesn’t like Rose feeling that in TV canon they’re the correct ones choosing Clara but then there’s EU where the Doctor sculpts Rose from memory and admits to himself in private how much he loves Rose. Where he is also willing to break time for her if she were to actually die. Etc. etc. The confession dial is a great act of care but far from something that can prove anything against a companion that was lost while alive.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[sublimewizardbread]

I will say it again and again if I have to. The „wedding“ we see on screen is not a valid Timelord wedding since the Doctor doesn’t tell her his name.

We don’t have confirmation how River got his name. But it wasn’t at their „wedding“.

Also, I have joined the fandom more recently and have not been here since 2012, so to me it’s all fresh. If you have a problem with that, guess what? Scroll. But don’t come under my post or my friends reposts and act as if we are wrong, when we KNOW that we are right.

There ain’t a single argument you could throw my way that would change my mind, and make me admit that I am „wrong“ when I know for a fact that I’m not.

[shitterly]

“it wasn’t a valid time lord wedding” LMFAO WHO CARES? why does it have to be a time lord ceremony to be legit? i know people who have had unofficial wedding ceremonies in their countries where gay marriage is still illegal. those wedding ceremonies weren’t valid - but don’t you dare imply they are not legitimate

the doctor clearly views it as binding based on his actions in the husbands of river song; 13’s statements about her wife in legend of the sea devils etc

you’re allowed to not like it! i am not a particularly big fan of it. i much prefer ships like 4romana, 12clara and thasmin. but this shit about trying to prove your headcanons to be the objective truth is totally immature and silly behaviour

sure, “death of the author” and all, but it’s literally confirmed by all of the people who worked on the show at the time that they were portraying

there is no canonical OTP in the show. you are allowed to believe what you want, but acting like you ‘know’ something everyone else doesn’t is arrogant and utterly bizarre

[sublimewizardbread]

WOW. Comparing a fictional wedding with gay marriage that is sadly still illegal in some countries is wild to me.

If you take the time as an author or screenwriter or whatever to tell the audience how a proper timelord wedding goes, and then show us one that does not follow those rules then that has a reason.

Also, it’s not a headcanon that Rose meant more to the Doctor than River ever did.

Do you think he would have let Rose have to EVER break her own wrist to get out of a weeping angels grip?

Do you think he would have ever just accepted that Rose would die because he saw her death happening, since they meet in the incorrect order?

If you actually think he would have ever treated Rose like he treated River then you need a crash course in media literacy.

And if you think that anything in the Doctor’s and Rivers relationship portrays love then….I don’t know, get a dictionary and look for the word love and it’s definition.

[shitterly]

you remind me of 8 year old children arguing over whether spiderman could beat superman in a fight

you’re literally powerscaling fictional relationships lmfaooooo

[sublimewizardbread]

And here we have a perfect example of someone being mad about losing an argument and then pulling the „it’s an immature thing to argue about anyway“ card.

[shitterly]

losing an argument? how do you lose something that’s entirely subjective. it’s like saying someone is losing an argument over whether mac and cheese is tasty or not 😭

[06badwolf]

The person who claims it’s undeniable and not subjective at all that the Doctor was madly in love with River Song now says it’s subjective. Fascinating.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[06badwolf]

I’m just gonna respond to everything that is in the comments in the reblogs here.

There is absolutely no possible reason an opinion or perspective would “make sense” in 2012 but not now. Media is timeless. There’s not some sort of magic expiration date on when people aren’t allowed to publicly say negative things about a character.

The Doctor being non monogamous is a headcanon people have. But there’s WAYYY more evidence of them being monogamous within canon than there is them being polyamorous. Look at the giant time gaps between the Doctor’s hard canonical love interests. You’re allowed to headcanon whatever you want and headcanon relationships that aren’t shown in canon but you can’t enforce the polyamorous thing like it’s law.

The hard canon romantic relationships the Doctor has had that have actually lasted more than five seconds are Charley Pollard, Rose Tyler, Clara Oswald, twisted as it is, River Song.? And Yasmin Khan. Now look at the time gaps between those. There was the entire Time War, several other Eight companions, and then 100 years traveling alone between Charley and Rose. There was then AT LEAST 400 years between Rose and Clara. The Doctor may have had River around at the same time as Clara but it took him completely forgetting Clara to show a modicum of affection towards River. They may have been in his life at the same time but the Doctor certainly didn’t fully engage in having feelings for them at the same time. Then it took another long gap and a regeneration for the Doctor to start being int Yaz. So no, polyamorous Doctor is not canonical. valid headcanon if you consider the non confirmed romances as ships you like, sure. Something you can lord over people? Absolutely not.

The show never once confirmed that the Doctor loved River. It confirmed that the Doctor felt a sense of duty to her and that his guilt complex was riled up over her. That he loved Amy Pond and River was her daughter. But that’s it. If you think all that amounts to love then fine. It’s not enough for a lot of us though. As for the Fifteen denying the marriage thing, I just pointed out it happened one time. Yes, out of guilt, the Doctor has felt obligated to acknowledge the marriage he was forced into. Doesn’t make it a real marriage. Or a love marriage as people marry for all kinds of reasons besides love.

[shitterly]

did you watch husbands of river song LMAO the episode where the doctor literally confirms how much he loves her, feels a sense of jealousy that she might be married to other people, and then when she states her belief the doctor never really loved her LITERALLY EMPHASISES TO HER HOW MUCH HE DOES

the reason this made sense in 2012 was because everyone was stupid and 14 years old and tumblr was on a weird anti moffat crusade. nowadays we like people who actually pay attention to the show, not make up weird headcanons where they distort the evidence to try and push weird agendas

you’re allowed to headcanon the doctor didn’t love river but that is not a textual reading of the show. you are actively inverting canon

the doctor, while in his romantic arc with rose, had a separate romance with madame de pompadour. he romanced clara while still married to river. he married marilyn monroe and variois other people. there’s plenty of evidence that shows the doctor isn’t monogamous, or at least isn’t always

“15 denies he is married” from his perspective she is long dead and has stopped showing up in his time stream. regardless, there is plenty of other times where they do refer to her as such, such as 13 with yaz. the episode also wasn’t written by moffat, so it doesn’t count towards what was conveyed in his era. a new writer could slip a line in the show in the future where the doctor says “i never loved rose tyler” and it would mean jackshit - a poor attempt to retcon what is obviously textually a thing in the RTD1 era

again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. i’m not even a huge fan of 11river. but it is obviously a thing! you have to operate all kinds of utterly insane headcanon to pretend it isn’t, and trying to warp what is clearly depicted onscreen to try and push an agenda is the sort of thing i’d expect from a teenager not an adult

[06badwolf]

LMAO there was nothing in the Husband’s of River Song that confirmed the Doctor did love River either. You’re allowed to headcanon that the Doctor loved River. But if you want to go strictly by “textual evidence” there’s no hard evidence either way if you want to isolate the matter to that one single episode. The Doctor, after having previously been shown to be willing to endure torture and being willing to kill people and break time when Clara died, does nothing of the sort when River is also about to die. He gives her one last goodbye after he can no longer remember Clara and his last emotional memories are of losing River’s mother who he did love. Whether that darilium thing is an act of love or simply “I feel bad that you’re about to die and you were my best friend’s child so let me do a nice thing for you” is ENTIRELY open ended based on the episode. And if you look at the previous episodes the latter is more strongly supported. This is a woman he leaves to break her own arm with anger and disgust because he’s more concerned about Amy. A woman he has said he doesn’t want to marry in the episode where the “wedding” happens. If you count the audios he’s even read her diary and said it’s not a relationship he even wants. So, yeah, I suppose it’s open ended enough to assume he loved her. But it’s FAR from hard canon. He’s never said to himself or to her that he loves her.

and also, it doesn’t look great when you’re telling people to move on but you yourself clearly can’t either. Enjoy Twelveclara if you love that relationship so much because there’s actually far more support for it and stop worrying about the fact that your writer left the story open for valid interpretations that the Doctor was not in fact madly in love with River.

[06badwolf]

As for the monogamy angle, Marilyn Monroe was literally an accidental marriage. Reinette was a one off highly out of character situation that never happens again and is contradicted by the Doctor outwardly and stubbornly refusing to let anyone replace Rose after he loses her. I don’t consider GitF canon but unlike you I won’t enforce that on people who wish to count it. But there or not it’s a pattern of behavior never backed up by anything else ever again. Whatever fluke caused it, it’s not polyamory.

[06badwolf]

You might enjoy believing you are mature and superior to others, but the fact is that you are the one who can’t cope with a storyline being left open to interpretation, and then having others interpret it differently. Want to believe the Doctor was madly in love with River? Your choice. But the writers certainly didn’t make that airtight. So, just deal with it and act as mature as you claim to be. And use your block button instead of trying to enforce your beliefs on others. If this post was a reblog of your post I’d understand. It’s not. It’s someone sharing a different opinion than you. Which is allowed.

and BTW, in what world are we seriously comparing people who want to get married but can’t due to the law to someone who said he didn’t want to get married to a woman, and then felt forced to do so to save the universe while inside a teselecta? This is so far from being a comparable situation it’s not even funny. If the Doctor wanted to marry her properly with his own body absolutely NOTHING was stopping him from re doing it.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[06badwolf]

I’m just gonna respond to everything that is in the comments in the reblogs here.

There is absolutely no possible reason an opinion or perspective would “make sense” in 2012 but not now. Media is timeless. There’s not some sort of magic expiration date on when people aren’t allowed to publicly say negative things about a character.

The Doctor being non monogamous is a headcanon people have. But there’s WAYYY more evidence of them being monogamous within canon than there is them being polyamorous. Look at the giant time gaps between the Doctor’s hard canonical love interests. You’re allowed to headcanon whatever you want and headcanon relationships that aren’t shown in canon but you can’t enforce the polyamorous thing like it’s law.

The hard canon romantic relationships the Doctor has had that have actually lasted more than five seconds are Charley Pollard, Rose Tyler, Clara Oswald, twisted as it is, River Song.? And Yasmin Khan. Now look at the time gaps between those. There was the entire Time War, several other Eight companions, and then 100 years traveling alone between Charley and Rose. There was then AT LEAST 400 years between Rose and Clara. The Doctor may have had River around at the same time as Clara but it took him completely forgetting Clara to show a modicum of affection towards River. They may have been in his life at the same time but the Doctor certainly didn’t fully engage in having feelings for them at the same time. Then it took another long gap and a regeneration for the Doctor to start being int Yaz. So no, polyamorous Doctor is not canonical. valid headcanon if you consider the non confirmed romances as ships you like, sure. Something you can lord over people? Absolutely not.

The show never once confirmed that the Doctor loved River. It confirmed that the Doctor felt a sense of duty to her and that his guilt complex was riled up over her. That he loved Amy Pond and River was her daughter. But that’s it. If you think all that amounts to love then fine. It’s not enough for a lot of us though. As for the Fifteen denying the marriage thing, I just pointed out it happened one time. Yes, out of guilt, the Doctor has felt obligated to acknowledge the marriage he was forced into. Doesn’t make it a real marriage. Or a love marriage as people marry for all kinds of reasons besides love.

[shitterly]

did you watch husbands of river song LMAO the episode where the doctor literally confirms how much he loves her, feels a sense of jealousy that she might be married to other people, and then when she states her belief the doctor never really loved her LITERALLY EMPHASISES TO HER HOW MUCH HE DOES

the reason this made sense in 2012 was because everyone was stupid and 14 years old and tumblr was on a weird anti moffat crusade. nowadays we like people who actually pay attention to the show, not make up weird headcanons where they distort the evidence to try and push weird agendas

you’re allowed to headcanon the doctor didn’t love river but that is not a textual reading of the show. you are actively inverting canon

the doctor, while in his romantic arc with rose, had a separate romance with madame de pompadour. he romanced clara while still married to river. he married marilyn monroe and variois other people. there’s plenty of evidence that shows the doctor isn’t monogamous, or at least isn’t always

“15 denies he is married” from his perspective she is long dead and has stopped showing up in his time stream. regardless, there is plenty of other times where they do refer to her as such, such as 13 with yaz. the episode also wasn’t written by moffat, so it doesn’t count towards what was conveyed in his era. a new writer could slip a line in the show in the future where the doctor says “i never loved rose tyler” and it would mean jackshit - a poor attempt to retcon what is obviously textually a thing in the RTD1 era

again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. i’m not even a huge fan of 11river. but it is obviously a thing! you have to operate all kinds of utterly insane headcanon to pretend it isn’t, and trying to warp what is clearly depicted onscreen to try and push an agenda is the sort of thing i’d expect from a teenager not an adult

[06badwolf]

LMAO there was nothing in the Husband’s of River Song that confirmed the Doctor did love River either. You’re allowed to headcanon that the Doctor loved River. But if you want to go strictly by “textual evidence” there’s no hard evidence either way if you want to isolate the matter to that one single episode. The Doctor, after having previously been shown to be willing to endure torture and being willing to kill people and break time when Clara died, does nothing of the sort when River is also about to die. He gives her one last goodbye after he can no longer remember Clara and his last emotional memories are of losing River’s mother who he did love. Whether that darilium thing is an act of love or simply “I feel bad that you’re about to die and you were my best friend’s child so let me do a nice thing for you” is ENTIRELY open ended based on the episode. And if you look at the previous episodes the latter is more strongly supported. This is a woman he leaves to break her own arm with anger and disgust because he’s more concerned about Amy. A woman he has said he doesn’t want to marry in the episode where the “wedding” happens. If you count the audios he’s even read her diary and said it’s not a relationship he even wants. So, yeah, I suppose it’s open ended enough to assume he loved her. But it’s FAR from hard canon. He’s never said to himself or to her that he loves her.

and also, it doesn’t look great when you’re telling people to move on but you yourself clearly can’t either. Enjoy Twelveclara if you love that relationship so much because there’s actually far more support for it and stop worrying about the fact that your writer left the story open for valid interpretations that the Doctor was not in fact madly in love with River.

[06badwolf]

As for the monogamy angle, Marilyn Monroe was literally an accidental marriage. Reinette was a one off highly out of character situation that never happens again and is contradicted by the Doctor outwardly and stubbornly refusing to let anyone replace Rose after he loses her. I don’t consider GitF canon because it’s so bizarrely out of character for more reasons than just Rose and is also so unnecessary to any story that comes after it —but unlike you I won’t enforce that on people who wish to count it. But there or not it’s a pattern of behavior never backed up by anything else ever again. Whatever fluke caused it, it’s not polyamory.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[06badwolf]

I’m just gonna respond to everything that is in the comments in the reblogs here.

There is absolutely no possible reason an opinion or perspective would “make sense” in 2012 but not now. Media is timeless. There’s not some sort of magic expiration date on when people aren’t allowed to publicly say negative things about a character.

The Doctor being non monogamous is a headcanon people have. But there’s WAYYY more evidence of them being monogamous within canon than there is them being polyamorous. Look at the giant time gaps between the Doctor’s hard canonical love interests. You’re allowed to headcanon whatever you want and headcanon relationships that aren’t shown in canon but you can’t enforce the polyamorous thing like it’s law.

The hard canon romantic relationships the Doctor has had that have actually lasted more than five seconds are Charley Pollard, Rose Tyler, Clara Oswald, twisted as it is, River Song.? And Yasmin Khan. Now look at the time gaps between those. There was the entire Time War, several other Eight companions, and then 100 years traveling alone between Charley and Rose. There was then AT LEAST 400 years between Rose and Clara. The Doctor may have had River around at the same time as Clara but it took him completely forgetting Clara to show a modicum of affection towards River. They may have been in his life at the same time but the Doctor certainly didn’t fully engage in having feelings for them at the same time. Then it took another long gap and a regeneration for the Doctor to start being int Yaz. So no, polyamorous Doctor is not canonical. valid headcanon if you consider the non confirmed romances as ships you like, sure. Something you can lord over people? Absolutely not.

The show never once confirmed that the Doctor loved River. It confirmed that the Doctor felt a sense of duty to her and that his guilt complex was riled up over her. That he loved Amy Pond and River was her daughter. But that’s it. If you think all that amounts to love then fine. It’s not enough for a lot of us though. As for the Fifteen denying the marriage thing, I just pointed out it happened one time. Yes, out of guilt, the Doctor has felt obligated to acknowledge the marriage he was forced into. Doesn’t make it a real marriage. Or a love marriage as people marry for all kinds of reasons besides love.

[shitterly]

did you watch husbands of river song LMAO the episode where the doctor literally confirms how much he loves her, feels a sense of jealousy that she might be married to other people, and then when she states her belief the doctor never really loved her LITERALLY EMPHASISES TO HER HOW MUCH HE DOES

the reason this made sense in 2012 was because everyone was stupid and 14 years old and tumblr was on a weird anti moffat crusade. nowadays we like people who actually pay attention to the show, not make up weird headcanons where they distort the evidence to try and push weird agendas

you’re allowed to headcanon the doctor didn’t love river but that is not a textual reading of the show. you are actively inverting canon

the doctor, while in his romantic arc with rose, had a separate romance with madame de pompadour. he romanced clara while still married to river. he married marilyn monroe and variois other people. there’s plenty of evidence that shows the doctor isn’t monogamous, or at least isn’t always

“15 denies he is married” from his perspective she is long dead and has stopped showing up in his time stream. regardless, there is plenty of other times where they do refer to her as such, such as 13 with yaz. the episode also wasn’t written by moffat, so it doesn’t count towards what was conveyed in his era. a new writer could slip a line in the show in the future where the doctor says “i never loved rose tyler” and it would mean jackshit - a poor attempt to retcon what is obviously textually a thing in the RTD1 era

again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. i’m not even a huge fan of 11river. but it is obviously a thing! you have to operate all kinds of utterly insane headcanon to pretend it isn’t, and trying to warp what is clearly depicted onscreen to try and push an agenda is the sort of thing i’d expect from a teenager not an adult

[06badwolf]

LMAO there was nothing in the Husband’s of River Song that confirmed the Doctor did love River either. You’re allowed to headcanon that the Doctor loved River. But if you want to go strictly by “textual evidence” there’s no hard evidence either way if you want to isolate the matter to that one single episode. The Doctor, after having previously been shown to be willing to endure torture and being willing to kill people and break time when Clara died, does nothing of the sort when River is also about to die. He gives her one last goodbye after he can no longer remember Clara and his last emotional memories are of losing River’s mother who he did love. Whether that darilium thing is an act of love or simply “I feel bad that you’re about to die and you were my best friend’s child so let me do a nice thing for you” is ENTIRELY open ended based on the episode. And if you look at the previous episodes the latter is more strongly supported. This is a woman he leaves to break her own arm with anger and disgust because he’s more concerned about Amy. A woman he has said he doesn’t want to marry in the episode where the “wedding” happens. If you count the audios he’s even read her diary and said it’s not a relationship he even wants. So, yeah, I suppose it’s open ended enough to assume he loved her. But it’s FAR from hard canon. He’s never said to himself or to her that he loves her.

and also, it doesn’t look great when you’re telling people to move on but you yourself clearly can’t either. Enjoy Twelveclara if you love that relationship so much because there’s actually far more support for it and stop worrying about the fact that your writer left the story open for valid interpretations that the Doctor was not in fact madly in love with River.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[shitterly]

15 didn't deny anything? river song died from his perspective. there's plenty of cases where the doctor has confirmed they are married to river, specifically the husbands of river song, legend of the sea devils etc

move on lmao it isn't 2012 anymore

[06badwolf]

I’m just gonna respond to everything that is in the comments in the reblogs here.

There is absolutely no possible reason an opinion or perspective would “make sense” in 2012 but not now. Media is timeless. There’s not some sort of magic expiration date on when people aren’t allowed to publicly say negative things about a character.

The Doctor being non monogamous is a headcanon people have. But there’s WAYYY more evidence of them being monogamous within canon than there is them being polyamorous. Look at the giant time gaps between the Doctor’s hard canonical love interests. You’re allowed to headcanon whatever you want and headcanon relationships that aren’t shown in canon but you can’t enforce the polyamorous thing like it’s law.

The hard canon romantic relationships the Doctor has had that have actually lasted more than five seconds are Charley Pollard, Rose Tyler, Clara Oswald, twisted as it is, River Song.? And Yasmin Khan. Now look at the time gaps between those. There was the entire Time War, several other Eight companions, and then 100 years traveling alone between Charley and Rose. There was then AT LEAST 400 years between Rose and Clara. The Doctor may have had River around at the same time as Clara but it took him completely forgetting Clara to show a modicum of affection towards River. They may have been in his life at the same time but the Doctor certainly didn’t fully engage in having feelings for them at the same time. Then it took another long gap and a regeneration for the Doctor to start being int Yaz. So no, polyamorous Doctor is not canonical. valid headcanon if you consider the non confirmed romances as ships you like, sure. Something you can lord over people? Absolutely not.

The show never once confirmed that the Doctor loved River. It confirmed that the Doctor felt a sense of duty to her and that his guilt complex was riled up over her. That he loved Amy Pond and River was her daughter. But that’s it. If you think all that amounts to love then fine. It’s not enough for a lot of us though. As for the Fifteen denying the marriage thing, I just pointed out it happened one time. Yes, out of guilt, the Doctor has felt obligated to acknowledge the marriage he was forced into. Doesn’t make it a real marriage. Or a love marriage as people marry for all kinds of reasons besides love.

[sublimewizardbread]

Just a reminder that the Doctor never actually married River Song and that the only Doctor who is properly married is the Metacrisis Doctor since he is married to Rose Tyler.

Oh and also the Doctor never actually told River his name, so it’s kinda creepy that she knows his name.

[06badwolf]

All very true. The teselecta married River after the Doctor said clearly he didn't want to marry her, but felt he had to once there was no other choice that would get River to listen to him.

Gonna add Fifteen denying the marriage to this post. And also just a friendly reminder that it was confirmed River didn't hear the Doctor's name from the “wedding”. How she knows?Anybody's guess. The stalker theory is very much on the table.

[strangestcase]

honestly it’s impossible to talk about feminism anymore on this site because a woman will casually make a post about how men treat women terribly and how much they suck and everybody in the notes is like ALL MEN? EVEN TRANS MEN? EVEN GAY MEN? EVEN MEN OF COLOR? EVEN DISABLED MEN? WHAT IF A MAN IS POOR? WHAT IF A MAN IS NICE? TRANS MEN GET MISGENDERED AS WOMEN SO THEY DONT COUNT RIGHT? GAY MEN ARE FEMININE SOMETIMES SO THEY DONT COUNT RIGHT? EAST ASIAN MEN GET FORCEFULLY FEMINIZED SO THEY DONT COUNT RIGHT? DID YOU KNOW WOMEN CAN BE RACIST

[06badwolf]

Apparently.

And Yes. apparently this is a feminism discourse blog too. It’s just a multi purpose discourse blog now.

[gallifreyan-heart]

I don't sugar coat things, I'm not Willy Wonka

How can I, with brevity, sum up my feelings about when people ask me how I can possibly think the Doctor's true love is Clara and not his 'wife' River?

Clara: I'm going to die and I accept it. Please don't do anything stupid because you're hurting.

Doctor: I'm going to torture & kill myself again & again over the course of 4.5 billion years, go against everything I've ever stood for, my own people/planet & will destroy the universe itself if it means there's even a small chance to get you back.

River: I'm going to die and I don't want to. You can go fix it so that I don't.

Doctor: Yeah... no. It is what it is. Sorry, but you gots to go.

The End

[06badwolf]

I may not be a twelveclara person. And Clara absolutely isn’t the Doctor’s true love either. Reasons why are all over my blogs. BUT most of this is absolutely the gospel truth. And done so well.

[bigbad-tardis]

river song 😘

1. sexuality headcanon: I think she’s canon bi?

2. Otp: her and therapy

3. Brotp: I guess her and Amy but if she and the Doctor were only friends then it would be them

4. Notp: sorry elevenriver stans

5. First headcanon that pops into my head: she doesn’t like Star Trek

6. One way in which I relate to this character: I wanna kill the Doctor

7. Thing that gives me second hand embarrassment about this character: if I speak

8. Cinnamon roll or problematic fave: problematic “fave”

[06badwolf]

I agree with all of these except for six. For six, mine is that I too have tried to force someone to love me who did not feel the same. Biggest lesson of River Song is that you can’t make someone love you.

[sallysellsseashellssundays]

Nine and Ten talking to literally the most random person:

You are so important! Humans oh how I love you!

Nine and Ten interacting with Rose/Martha/Donna like 95% of the time:

🧡 🥰 😀 🧡 🥰 😀 🧡

Eleven talking to River in the episode they get married:

It’s not funny, River. Reality is fatally compromised. Tell me you understand that.

I don’t want to marry you.

River! River, this is ridiculous. That would mean nothing to anyone. It’s insane. Worse, it’s stupid. You embarrass me.

[matt0044]

How do you feel Steven Moffat writes women in Doctor Who?

I ask this because… I was there, Gandalf. I was there when 2010s Tumblr had Steven Moffat as this anti-feminist figurehead. Not helped by how they felt his Doctor Who run was too far a departure from RTD's.

And for the sake of sanity, let us not get into that of BBC’s Sherlock. Whole other can of worms there so… let’s keep focus.

Amy, River, Clara and Bill were always scrutinized heavily under this "bad female representation" preconception to the point of wildly inaccurate takes or, at the very least, takes that felt like they really wanted to hate Moffat first with maybe a side dish of constructive criticism.

This isn’t to wave away concerns that came from an honest place. Amy in terms of how she expressed her abandonment issues and fear of committing or Clara’s Impossible Girl storyline likely didn’t make a good impression.

Also there were sexual themes and innuendo that might’ve had a character purpose but… didn’t always land right.

And that's not even getting into River Song overall with her brand of polarization to this day.

However, I find that a lot of people often don't look beyond those surface level potential "fetish fuel" traits. Especially when interacting with fans as his run came out, many seemed to just skim the surface of Amy or River without diving deep.

Yet a lot of Tumblr users in that day actually enjoyed and related to the main female cast. Especially when Twelve came around, bringing out another side of Clara and Bill being a real treat. I feel like there's a more well round view of Moffat that doesn't overlook his flaws but also doesn't ignore aspects that viewers resonated with.

At the time or even now.

[06badwolf]

I might have more to say later, but for now I just want to mention what’s at the top of my head. Moffat’s own personal sexism is no secret. He and RTD are not the same here. He gave none of his female characters even so much as a family except for River. And even there, she wasn’t raised by Amy and Rory nor showed any affection for them. Moffat has publicly talked about how disgusting he finds pregnant women. Hence why Amy’s pregnancy was written the way it was. He despises “emotionally needy women” so all his women have little to no emotional needs. He believes men avoid marriage as long as possible. So he gives the Doctor a wife he doesn’t have to emotionally invest in. Moffat has openly described River and Clara as representations of his own sexual fetishes. I could go on and on.

Meanwhile RTD in his first era has put effort into every single character he writes feeling real. And effort into all of them very much not being sex symbols and fetishes. The gag with Cassandra kissing the Doctor through Rose’s body was admittedly somewhat of a borderline sexist issue but it happened exactly once. The whole age gap thing is just something most people commonly accept in fiction when one character isn’t human. Time Lords don’t age and mature at the same rate as humans. It’s much much slower. The Doctor acts like a kid himself. He has never interacted with Rose as a minor so there wasn’t any grooming there unlike how Moffat likes to write women. Moffat did drop the red bicycle Christmas gift into Rose’s story. But when it was elaborated on as a short story by another writer, it was clear the Doctor never interacted with Rose as a child.

This shouldn’t even be a contest. The dude seems to have lost interest and passion for Doctor Who and hasn’t been putting much effort into the show in his recent era. But his sexism is negligible compared to Moffat.