“I don’t want to.”
Aegon 1x09 | Helaena 2x02 HOUSE OF THE DRAGON (2022-)
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@gameofgreen
“I don’t want to.”
Aegon 1x09 | Helaena 2x02 HOUSE OF THE DRAGON (2022-)
I hate the half baked narrative that haters have about Alicent, which is that she was sPreAdIng rUmOurs aBouT Rhaenyra.!
These people need to open a book fr because it was not Alicent who was spreading rumours, it was Rhaenyra's fool Mushroom who was rumour mongering in Fire & Blood and one of his victims was a 15 year old Alicent herself.
Whether she was taking care of 70 y.o. sick king, or rumours about her relationship with Viserys, or linkup with Daemon which was probably spread by Daemon supporters to get back at Otto, most of the rumour mongering was the work of the fool Mushroom, a dear supporter of Rhaenyra.
If Alicent calling out Rhaenyra and Viserys for turning blind eye to Strong boys is sPreAdiNg ruMouRs then bitch so is saying water is wet. Because it is the truth, not a rumour. Rumours are, by definition, falsehoods and exaggerations to besmirch someone. Mushroom spreading lies about Alicent sleeping with Jaehaerys is a rumour; Alicent questioning Strongs parentage based on the striking differences in appearance is not a rumour. It is plain truth.
Even if Alicent did not question their Strong appearance, somebody else in Kings Landing would have. In fact DID. Velaryon relatives of Corlys, for example. Those who did not question, were all TB supporters but otherwise people had eyes and could literally SEE the difference. It was an open secret.
Its real frustrating because some people just want a reason to hate Alicent but haters need to pick a valid reason, at least. Old ones are stupid asf and getting booring.
Check this post about the idea that Alicent is the one “spreading rumors” about Rhaenyra with Criston Cole or Daemon.
THE BASTARDY
Book!Alicent didn’t need to loudly accuse Rhaenyra’s sons of being bastards. The rumors practically spread themselves.
Rhaenyra’s children don’t resemble either her or Laenor in the way people expected, but they do resemble Harwin Strong, a man who was constantly around her. People aren’t blind or stupid. If Cersei’s children had looked unmistakably Stark or Dornish, everyone would have questioned their parentage too. The reason Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella escaped scrutiny for so long is because they looked like Cersei, and Jaime was her twin. Likewise, Catelyn’s children largely resemble her, and nobody doubts they’re Ned’s. Even Arya looking like Ned doesn’t make people question the others.
The point is that Alicent didn’t have to say the rumor. The rumor existed because people had eyes. In the show after the birth of Rhaenyra’s third son, Alicent tells Laenor, “Do keep trying, Ser Laenor. Sooner or later, you may get one who looks like you.” That didn’t happened bc it was said by mushroom. As you said, the one who was spreading the rumours is Mushroom, not Alicent. But ofc Alicent being blamed for the men’s actions for the hundredth time. This again reminds me of those Rhaenyra stans who blamed Alicent for Daemon grooming Rhaenyra too.
Again why would bk!Alicent need to say anything? Septons whisper. Lords whisper. Ladies whisper. Servants whisper. Guards whisper. Rhaenyra and Viserys know the rumors are true. The court knows the rumors. Even Daemon, living all the way in Pentos, is aware of them. Even if you completely remove Alicent from the story, do Team Black stans seriously think the rumors wouldn’t spread? Also, Jace was born in the same year as Rhaenyra and Laenor’s marriage. That alone was always going to attract attention. Laenor spent significant amounts of time away, and even before Jace’s birth there were already whispers about whether the marriage had truly been consummated.
The rumors weren’t appearing in a vacuum. They emerged from the circumstances themselves. You have a politically important marriage, questions about whether the couple are actually sleeping together, a husband known to prefer male partners, a man constantly in Rhaenyra’s company who strongly resembles the children, and sons who are expected to inherit both the Iron Throne and Driftmark.
You don’t need Alicent to connect those dots. Most people at court would. That’s why the idea that Alicent somehow invented the entire controversy has never made sense to me. The real question isn’t why people suspected the boys were Harwin’s. The real question is why anyone expects a feudal aristocracy obsessed with legitimacy, and inheritance not to speculate under those circumstances. Even Viserys’s constant insistence that no one discuss the matter suggests how widespread the rumors already were. If nobody believed it, there would be nothing to suppress.
“In fact DID. Velaryon relatives of Corlys, for example. Those who did not question, were all TB supporters but otherwise people had eyes and could literally SEE the difference. It was an open secret.”
You do realize Corlys never actually wanted Luke or Joffrey to inherit Driftmark, right? And you do realize Team Black misogynistic stans blame Alicent for the entire Driftmark succession crisis ? As if she personally created the rumors out of thin air. Instead of blaming Corlys, Rhaenyra, Viserys they blame Alicent.
Once Laenor dies, Corlys refused to name luke or anyone as his heir. Check this post. Corlys did not seem particularly enthusiastic about Luke as his heir.
“the Sea Snake was stricken by a sudden fever. As he took to his bed, surrounded by maesters, the issue arose as to who should succeed him as Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark should the sickness claim him. With both his trueborn children dead, by law his lands and titles should pass to his eldest grandson, Jacaerys...but since Jace would presumably ascend the Iron Throne after his mother, Princess Rhaenyra urged her good- father to name instead her second son, Lucerys. Lord Corlys also had half a dozen nephews, however, and the eldest of them, ser Vaemond.”
Nowhere does the text actually say that Corlys named Luke his heir from the start. What we do see is that Rhaenyra is arguing Corlys to name her son as heir and actively pushing the issue and that she was willing to use punishment, and severe consequences against challenges to her sons’ legitimacy. Corlys may have accepted Luke as the practical solution partly because Luke was already betrothed to Rhaena, meaning Velaryon blood would eventually return to Driftmark through the next generation.
But later developments complicate the idea that Corlys fully supported Luke/Joffrey as uncomplicated heirs. Once Luke dies, Joffrey becomes the expected heir to Driftmark while Jace remains heir to the Iron Throne. Yet Corlys is already maneuvering toward placing someone of his own blood in the succession. Joffrey is betrothed to a Manderly girl, and noble betrothals are not casually dissolved, so the “just marry him to Rhaena” solution is no longer simple.
That context matters when Corlys later chooses Addam Velaryon someone he explicitly recognizes as his blood. Fire & Blood is also interesting in how it makes the matter linguistically. Luke is not mentioned or called as heir of driftmark in the text in the same heir-language used for other Driftmark heirs, which may reflect that the arrangement was politically accepted but not necessarily emotionally or ideologically uncomplicated for Corlys himself.
Because if Corlys truly did not care about biological descent or bastardy in this context, there would be much less reason for Addam to be heir instead of Joffrey.
The funniest part is how much agency this interpretation gives Alicent. Apparently she is simultaneously a powerless, irrelevant npc woman who accomplished nothing and also the mastermind behind every succession crisis, every rumor, and every political conflict in the realm.
wow, i can’t wait for season three!! so excited for all the horrors committed in king’s landing by the blacks to be alicent’s fault!!!! super hyped for the continuing humiliation and ““humbling”” of alicent as rhae rhae’s maid!!!!!!
Emma D'Arcy, Ewan Mitchell and Tom Glynn-Carney for Entertainment Weekly
when the characters never really make peace with it
unholy martyr.
prints + merch + c0mm info pinn3d to prof1le
While on the subject of hotd biases playing out since another season is approaching, its so ridiculous that original characters like dyana, sylvi, kat, tb randos got more screen space and character development than canon daeron targaryen. His dragon tessarion got time equivalent to the dragon of aegon the younger in TWO seasons. Moreover useless syrax has more screen space than dreamfyre, sunfyre and tessarion COMBINED. But for what? She was painfully irrelevant in canon so ryan condal decided to give her yellowness half the space and stolen traits while throwing literal crumbs to mvp dragons sunfyre and tessarion.
Baby Helaena booping Dreamfyre’s shnose
Aemond One Eye
Aegon II is a rapist in Fire and Blood too. This isn't something the show invented.
Daemon is not a child groomer. Literally, he isn't.
He is almost never with Rhaenyra when she is a child in the books, because either at his wife's house, then when he is no longer busy with his duties for the crown or his travels (when he comes back he offers gifts to his only niece, nothing crazy). Then he is banished during Rhaenyra's 7th birthday, only returning at 14, a time when, whether you like it or not, Rhaenyra was already courted by men of the kingdom, because it is the feudal era. Daemon only added himself to the list of suitors and spent time with her always accompanied by Rhaenyra's ladies-in-waiting, except during their flights on dragons.
In the show it's implied the same thing about Daemon never being at court much, and nothing romantic happens with Rhaenyra until she's 19.
We need to review you definition of grooming and child grooming.
It's a pleasure to be back in this fandom with the same old bullshit that I'm being fed and that I've already proven wrong. Continue drowning in your intellectual mediocrity if it makes you happy.
Proven wrong?
Aegon wasn’t written as a rapist in the books. What we actually get from reliable in-world sources is that he was a hedonist: he drank too much, slept around, had bastards, and could be handsy with the maids definitely irresponsible and definitely not good!. but not described as someone who committed outright rape. The only person who ever claims the extreme stuff is Mushroom, and Mushroom says the most unhinged, sensational things about everyone, even Rhaenyra, and he was supposedly loyal to her. If George had intended Aegon to be an actual rapist, he wouldn’t hide it behind a single unreliable narrator. George is blunt when he wants you to know a character is abusive or predatory even characters he personally likes, like Tyrion. But with Aegon, he never does that.
The show cherry-picked Mushroom’s most sensational rumor and treated it as fact. At the same time, it ignored all the equally extreme Mushroom stories about Rhaenyra, which shows how selective the adaptation was. So viewers walk away thinking book!Aegon is a serial rapist when, in the text itself, that’s simply not supported. Aegon is a messy, irresponsible hedonist but not, in the book’s actual canon, written or confirmed as a rapist.
And honestly, Sara Hess and Ryan Condal pulled a move straight out of the D&D playbook. D&D did the same thing with jaime they turned him the into a rapist *at the sept* despite the books making it clear it was something else entirely, while ignoring Tyrion’s actual canon sexual violence. They had a series full of PoV chapters that spelled out character motivations, and they still chose to invent shock-value scenes that warped the characters. Hess and Condal are doing the same thing with HOTD: changing characters drastically, pushing extreme interpretations the book never solidifies, and making things worse for certain characters even when the source material doesn’t support it especially in a text like Fire & Blood, which already lacks PoVs and needs careful adaptation. So instead of nuance, they pick the most sensational rumor and lock it in as canon.
Sara Hess and Ryan Condal made Aegon a rapist in the show even though the book never confirms that instead of showing Daemon doing the things the book actually hints at, like his interest in very young girls. In Fire & Blood, Daemon spending time with girls who are “too young” is textually there, the same vibe as show!Meryn Trant in GOT. That’s canon. They flattened Aegon into a monster and polished Daemon into a bad-boy romantic lead, even though the book’s Daemon is far closer to the predatory behavior they refused to show on screen. they invented crimes (just like they did with Meryn Trant) for Aegon while hiding the ones Daemon actually has in the text.
Check this:
1/POST
2/POST
The Virgins
One of the most common defenses of Daemon is the claim that he was "just attracted to younger women," not children or vulnerable minors. But this argument falls apart the moment you actually look at what the book says about him. Archmaester Gyldayn gives us one of the clearest, most damning insights into Daemon's character:
"He sampled countless whores in the city's brothels, and was said to have an especial fondness for deflowering maidens... every brothel keeper kept aside the youngest, prettiest, and most innocent of their new girls for him to deflower. The girl Nettles was young, beyond a doubt (though perhaps not as young as those the prince had debauched in his youth),”
It isn't ambiguous. It isn't "oh, he just liked women in their late teens." It is describing a man seeking out virgins specifically. Preferring “girls” who are "new," "innocent," and “youngest. Being so notorious that brothel owners would reserve their youngest girls for him, because they knew exactly what he wanted
youngest not “young,” not “maiden,” but the youngest available. There’s a difference between “young” and “youngest” here. “Young” could just mean teens or early 20s by Westerosi standards, like someone is kinda youthful. But “youngest” is w//ay more specific it’s the girls at the very bottom of the age spectrum, the ones who are barely past childhood, barely flowered, and still like super naïve. That’s who the brothel keepers would set aside for him.
New girls not “new women.” Girls. the text doesn’t say “new women” or even “young women” it literally says “new girls”. and that’s super important. “Girls” != “women,” even in Westeros. it’s signaling youth, inexperience, and w//ay more vulnerability than a young/grown woman would have. these are ppl who just arrived at the brothel untrained, and basically totally impressionable. and that word “new” is also important it’s not just that they’re young, it’s that they’re fresh to the brothel, so they’ve got zero experience with men like Daemon bc “new” means they just arrived combine that w// “youngest” and “most innocent” and it’s screaming Pedophile. he isn’t just going after virgins or young women, he’s going after the ones who are at the edge of childhood and still super naïve.
Innocent / innocence here clearly ties to sexual inexperience, but when paired with “youngest,” it reads as code for extreme youth, bordering on childlike. That word innocent within the brothel context, signals girls who have never been deflowered, who don’t know the ways of men, who are entirely unversed in sexual knowledge or manipulation. These are girls who haven’t yet been socialized into the sexual world, and thus, in the narrative, they are objects for Daemon’s control and abuse. Also innocence is strongly tied to childhood. It’s not just about being naïve or inexperienced sexually it evokes vulnerability, purity, and a lack of worldly understanding all traits we naturally associate with children. When you put this together, you don’t get a man interested in “young women who happen to be virgins.” You get a man with a predatory fixation on the very youngest girls who could be found in a brothel, barely flowered, barely considered women in Westerosi terms. You don’t get to handwave this away by saying “that’s just medieval realism.” The text doesn’t just say Daemon liked virgins. It says he liked the youngest and most innocent girls. That’s not romantic. That’s not “morally grey.” That’s pedophilic. He’s a monstrous, and this is one of the clearest windows into his monstrosity.
"(though perhaps not as young as those the prince had debauched in his youth)" he sexually abused girls even younger than Nettles, it's implying that Nettles, even at 16, was actually older than some of his previous victims. This makes the reader realize that Daemon's sexual activity was aimed at girls far below the age of consent or what we would consider safe, and that Nettles was almost "lucky" by comparison. The surprise isn't about Nettles being 16 in Westerosi terms (she's technically of age to be a maiden), but that she's older than the children he usually raped!
The word “debauched” is important here. It doesn’t just mean “had sex with” it implies rape, coercion, and corruption of innocence. When the book says Daemon “debauched… in his youth,” it’s signaling sexual abuse of children. It reinforces that his attraction wasn’t to adult women, but to the very youngest, most innocent girls available, and that these acts were abusive, not consensual.
Yes “Debauch” had several possible meanings (from “excessive indulgence” to “seduction” to “sexual corruption”), But when it appears in a context of youth, prostitution, brothels, virginity, innocence, girls and power imbalance as with Daemon in Fire & Blood the meaning strongly leans toward sexual abuse. Modern legal definitions don’t exactly match historical ones. What we call “rape” or “pedophilia” today might have been described with euphemisms like “debauchery,” “deflowering,” or “corruption of virtue” in the past
In many cases of abduction (marriage-by-force) or rape, terms like “deflower,” “seduce,” “ravish,” or older euphemisms equivalent to “debauch” were used partly because terms varied across languages and because explicit legal terminology for “rape” was often avoided or ambiguous. Also sexual crimes were often written with language of “bawdry,” “lie with,” “deflower,” “debauch” or “corruption,” rather than a direct word for rape. Even without relying on the historical or legal meaning of debauch, Daemon’s actions as described in the book make him both a pedophile and a rapist.
Consent is not implied in the book. Getting a period does not magically turn a child into an adult. Being called a “maid” doesn’t mean someone can truly consent. And nothing in Daemon’s brothel scenes even tries to suggest those girls had real choice, power, or safety.
“Maiden” doesn’t automatically mean 15+ in Westeros, a maiden is simply a girl who has had her first period. Girls could flower around 12–14, so being called a maiden doesn’t mean she was older or able to truly consent.
For example, Sansa is a maiden at thirteen:
"You are a woman flowered, are you not?" "Yes." Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. "Tyrion didn't . . . he never . . ." She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. "I am still a maid."
“How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment. “Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.” "You're a child," he said. She covered her breasts with her hands. "I've flowered." "A child," he repeated, "but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?"
So using “she was a maiden” as proof of consent is completely wrong. A girl can be a maiden and still be a CHILD, legally under her family’s control, psychologically unprepared, and unable to refuse an adult with power. “Maiden” describes biology, not consent, or adulthood. In a brothel system where the workers are bought, sold, abused, or trapped, no one is freely choosing a powerful prince. The book never says these girls wanted him and never gives them voices.
Daemon was a prince, extremely powerful, and the girls were low-born or otherwise vulnerable. There’s no realistic way these encounters were truly consensual, especially with children.
That is not normal lust or standard brothel behavior. That is the behavior of a man who is deliberately targeting the most powerless, inexperienced, and vulnerable girls available - girls who are barely into adolescence, and with zero ability to refuse him. Do you honestly believe those innocent girls could say no to a prince like Daemon? Could a serving girl in a brothel openly refuse him without worrying about punishment or violence? Do you think any of them actually wanted their “first time” to be with a man decades older, extremely entitled, and known for ignoring boundaries?
What sort of servile self-denial are you trying to espouse? Daemon doesn’t limit himself to “maidens” the book says he seeks out the youngest, the prettiest, the most innocent girls. Not grown women, not just virgins. Girls. New girls to the brothel. The ones with no experience, no power, and no protection.
Show!Maryn keeps asking for younger and younger prostitutes until the brothel owners brings him the youngest and priciest girl they’ve got. Still, he demands younger, and the proprietor’s sweating buckets bc refusing Trant isn’t really on the menu. So what makes Daemon different? Oh right… he also goes for the youngest and most innocent girls the brothels owners keep specially for him. Again, the youngest! But hey, Daemon isn’t like Meryn he’s not an incestous lizard, and he’s the rogue prince actually riding dragons and fighting for Queen Rhae Rhae.
Rhaenyra…
Book!Rhaenyra is 13/14yo when Daemon begins courting, grooming, or preparing her. A girl who has flowered but is under sixteen is in the “maid” category socially considered marriageable but still part child.
This is exactly the age where manipulative adults often begin non-sexual grooming, because the girl is old enough to understand praise and attention, but still young enough to be easily influenced, flattered, or shaped.
Even in the Middle Ages, nobles often arranged marriages for political reasons at a young age, but actual consummation and sexual activity were typically postponed until around 15–16, when the girl was physically more capable of handling it. Ideally, the couple would also be close in age.
Rhaenyra being 14 when Daemon, 31, begins courting her is well below this standard. Any attention he gives her gifts, rides, flattery, lessons, or more intimate behavior falls into an abusive gray area, even by Westerosi norms. It’s not “okay” or safe; this is exactly why historians and readers note how exploitative it is. book canon shows her as too young to give meaningful consent, and real-world historical context reinforces that this age is inappropriate for sexualized attention.
Marriages where the partners were closer in age were seen as more acceptable, socially and politically. A 31yo courting a 13/14yo would be considered abusive because of the enormous imbalance in power and experience. GRRM explicitly notes that girls are generally married and bedded at 15–16, not younger. Any sexualized attention toward someone below that age even from a highborn man is considered exploitative, Daemon pursuing Rhaenyra at 13/14 is below even those norms, so it’s not a matter of “role reversal” or trying to excuse behavior it’s objectively inappropriate.
Because you people loves to romanticize bad boys. Because you are conditioned to look past predatory behavior if the man is “hot” or “charismatic.” Because “rogue prince” sounds fun until you actually pay attention to what he’s doing. And because there’s a built-in excuse: “Well, in Westeros that was normal.” Sure. In Westeros, incest is normal too. In Westeros, selling your daughter at 12 is normal. Does that make it okay? Does that mean we shouldn’t call it what it is when we, as modern readers, see it spelled out? You don’t get to handwave this away by saying “that’s just medieval realism.” The text doesn’t just say Daemon liked virgins. It says he liked the youngest and most innocent girls. That’s not romantic. That’s pedophilic.
GRRM knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote this line. So yeah. If you’re going to stan Daemon, fine. People have problematic faves. But let’s not lie to ourselves. The “rogue prince” isn’t just some fun-loving bad boy. By the text’s own description, he is a rapist and a pedophile.
Again Tyrion and Daemon are both rapists in the books and they’re two of GRRM’s favorite characters. GRRM has never hesitated to write sexual violence into the arcs of characters he personally likes. Book!Tyrion commits rape outright. Just like Book!Daemon is. But the show removed all of this.
🕷️ 𝐇𝐞𝐥𝐚𝐞𝐧𝐚 𝐓𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐫𝐲𝐞𝐧 🕸️
Then Queen Alicent removed her own crown and placed it upon the head of her daughter, Helaena, the wife and sister of King Aegon II.
“My Queen,” Alicent said, and kissed her cheeks. Then she knelt before her daughter.
“Your Grace.”
🕷️🕸️🕷️🕸️ 🕷️🕸️🕷️🕸️ 🕷️🕸️🕷️🕸️ 🕷️🕸️🕷️🕸️
The children of Alicent Hightower
baby Aegon & Sunfyre <3 <3
they are the only two people who have that in common, and yet they can't be there for each other.