Jedi Maester Yoda

Uber-nerd. Lover of Star Wars, ASOIAF and History.

[jedimaesteryoda]

The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince. -ADWD, The Lost Lord

Connington's thoughts of the tragic downfall of House Targaryen and the loss of "my silver prince" Rhaegar have pretty much defined his life. The words of "the bells tolled" point to the Battle of the Bells where he blames his defeat for Rhaegar's death. There is another layer as it could be referencing John Donne's sermon:

No man is an Iland, entire of it selfe; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

The death of Rhaegar, his only human connection meant that the bells tolled for Connington's humanity as well. He cut himself off, thinking if he had been the brutal Tywin Lannister he would have won the war and saved Rhaegar from an early death. He will do whatever he thinks he needs to do to seat Aegon on the throne to "atone" for his defeat. That includes possibly killing his kin and children.

[jedimaesteryoda]

"The day my father came to claim me, my mother did not wish for me to go. 'She is a girl,' she said, 'and I do not think that she is yours. I had a thousand other men.' He tossed his spear at my feet and gave my mother the back of his hand across the face, so she began to weep. 'Girl or boy, we fight our battles,' he said, 'but the gods let us choose our weapons.' He pointed to the spear, then to my mother's tears, and I picked up the spear. 'I told you she was mine,' my father said, and took me. My mother drank herself to death within the year. They say that she was weeping as she died." -AFFC, The Captain of the Guards

It's a good thing a certain hedge knight from Flea Bottom wasn't there to witness that.

His sword and dagger were forgotten along with everything the old man had ever taught him. His fist knocked Aerion off his feet and the toe of his boot slammed into the prince's belly -THK

Obara would have gotten a much different lesson if she saw Dunk beat another prince's ass over harming a smallfolk woman. Although, it would have been healthier one in that instead of seeing the weak as something to be despised, the weak are something to be protected while Oberyn would have gotten a rough reminder of his knightly vow to defend the weak. Dunk was likely the son of a whore as well, but he found the internal security and self-assurance Obara was looking for.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Davos Seaworth is the Onion Knight. It was by smuggling onions or providing food to starving men that he became enobled. Onions are common and universally used in a variety of dishes, often to complement the main ingredients. Davos himself works perfectly as a complement to his king.

One trait about onions as Shrek pointed is "onions have layers." Onions often can be peeled back to reveal layers. Davos himself has layers in the form of his family, his loyalty to Stannis, his faith in the Seven, and his identity as the smuggler who came from Flea Bottom. These things together make up Davos.

He lost some layers with his four eldest sons on the Blackwater. He will also be fighting the Faith itself. I also don’t think the gods are done testing (torturing) Davos as he is set to lose his entire family and eventually his king Stannis. He will have lost his whole family in service to what ultimately proved to be a doomed cause like Eustace Osgrey.

One thing about onions is that they manage to continue sprouting leaves even when taken out of the ground, making them symbols of rebirth and fertility.

What happens when you peel away all the layers and finally reach the core of onion? What will you find? What will Davos do when he has lost everything, his family and his king? That is the point where he truly proves his colors, the core at who he really is.

[jedimaesteryoda]

"It was too, you know it. You're somebody." -ACOK, Arya IX

I like how beneath the surface, if it were another story, like many other characters, Gendry would be the protagonist. He has all the marks for a typical fantasy protagonist.

Orphaned son of a king, ignorant of his royal heritage

Raised among common people, and even working a regular job as a blacksmith's apprentice like Taran

Forced to leave home by tyrannical regime to go on an adventure in the country

Meets wizard mentor who knew his father in the form of Thoros the Red Wizard

Becomes knighted in defending the people of the kingdom against the forces of evil

Falls for a princess journeying with him along the way in the form of Arya

When he finally does learn the truth of who his father is, it will impact his story. He won't take the news gladly given his low opinion of Robert, but it will go somewhere. My best guess is they will need someone to be Lord Baratheon of Storm's End, and rule over his father's former kingdom of the stormlands.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Daenerys' arrival will have many layers to it for the different houses and actors who confront her.

For House Lannister, it is conflicting with the house they always aspired to be. They wanted to marry into House Targaryen, practiced both incest and their doctrine of their house's supremacy.

On an individual level, for Jaime, it means confronting his past. He confronts his crime that earned him the name "Kingslayer" that ended his efforts to be a true knight like his mentor Arthur Dayne, and with it the question of where he stands now. For Cersei, Daenerys is both what she aspires to be as a ruling queen: an absolute monarch with the monopoly on violence firmly in her hand making her stronger than any man, and her foil in that both are abuse victims sold into marriage but Daenerys rejects her family's doctrine of supremacy while Cersei embraces it. For Tyrion, it means abandoning his father's toxic legacy and finding the balance between realpolitik and his fondness for "cripples, bastards and broken things."

For House Baratheon, it means confronting the house they overthrew now that they are the ones who were usurped. Stannis faces another claimant for Azor Ahai who unlike him hatched actual dragons and whose claim to the throne supersedes his own. Daenerys is the image of who he thinks he is in a way that would make him question his own role. She essentially wrecks his story.

For House Martell, Daenerys represents two parts of their heritage. Daenerys is the image of their forebear and founder of the Dornish kingdom Nymeria: an Essosi warrior queen leading her people from slavery to Westeros. She also bears the name of the Targaryen ancestor of House Martell who continues to bear considerable influence on the family. Like the original Daenerys, Dany was married off to a foreign ruling sovereign as part of an alliance, and carries her concern for the common people.

Daenerys Targaryen, Maron's wife, was the one for whom the Water Gardens were built and she was the one who came up with the lesson in ruling made form observing the children playing in the pools that she instilled into her son that continued to be passed down to the generations all the way to Doran. Arianne looks at her portrait when she was a child constantly praying to be beautiful rather than her lesson, seeing Targaryen as something to aspire to.

In fighting Daenerys, they would be warring against the image of their family's legacies and heritage for the sake of a crown, pride and vengeance. It is also Arianne fighting against the image of her personal ideal.

For the High Septon, Daenerys is the embodiment of everything he opposes. She is a savior of another faith, the Red Faith, like Stannis. Like Cersei, Daenerys is also a ruling queen which doesn't sit well with the High Sparrow's misogyny. Daenerys also bedded horselords (nevermind that she wasn't given a choice) and had other partners, adding more fuel to his misogyny given his views on women and premarital sex. Like Cersei's children, she is a product of incest which the Faith abhors, and makes her an abomination by birth. Finally, she has dragons which were essential tools in crushing the power of the Faith. She would present a clear threat to his newly acquired military and political power.

For House Stark, the person it will most likely effect is Jon Snow. Jon will gave learned the truth of his paternal heritage and struggling with this information and identity. Daenerys to Jon is acknowledging this information of being a scion of House Targaryen and deciding where to go with the knowledge of his newfound identity. Confronting Daenerys is essentially Jon confronting and accepting his Targaryen identity.

[jedimaesteryoda]

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . ." -ACOK, Tyrion I No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans. -AFFC, Cersei VII

Interesting comments from Cersei. She says Sansa revealed Ned's plot to her and even believes that. However, we must take into account that Sansa didn't tell her all of Ned's plans simply because Ned wouldn't confide such in an eleven year-old. We also known because Ned actually told Cersei his plans through his own POV. Littlefinger would have told Cersei about Ned's plans as well. The most Sansa could have told her is that she was being sent back to Winterfell, or Ned was moving now.

There are also clear inconsistencies. Ned wasn't plotting with Renly given Renly never supported Stannis's claim like Ned did, and he left King's Landing before Ned's confrontation with Cersei to crown himself. Ned clearly wouldn't have wanted such a powerful ally to leave him so he could push a claim to rival that of the candidate he supported. Ned also had no political base in King's Landing, and his seemingly only ally remaining, Littlefinger, had joined Cersei with the gold cloaks. Stannis was far away on Dragonstone, and Ned's letter never reached Dragonstone given the Lannister ally Pycelle, who was in charge of ravens, never sent it. He was politically isolated in King's Landing with Cersei having the clear advantage.

Why does she tell herself that Sansa spilled all of the beans? For the same reason she later says that Stannis made common cause with the Ironborn in spite of Stannis being too unyielding to give them the North they want and the Ironborn remembering Stannis crushing their fleet at Fair Isle, not wanting to be part of a united realm. She tells herself the North will not have him, that they prefer her rule in spite of Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding because . . . "Cersei is awesome."

This is also the same person who remembers Tyrion jeering at her the night Joffrey died when we know from Tyrion's POV that he tried to comfort her. In other words, Cersei is an unreliable narrator as even subconsciously she rewrites reality to fit her preferred narrative. She likes to think herself more popular and talented than she actually is while diminishing the abilities and support of her opponents.

Having Sansa tell her cuts out the political players Ned and Littlefinger, and makes her the only adult political operator in this context. It creates a less crowded narrative where they could have lost the throne were it not for Cersei because Sansa is the only person she would have come to and told Ned's plans which Cersei acted upon. Ned is simultaneously competent enough to oust the Lannisters from the throne in spite of his political isolation, and incompetent enough to confide in an eleven year-old his political plans at huge risk. The two parts of the narrative are inconsistent with each other, but both make sense in serving the purpose of boosting Cersei's image as a political player both objectively and relatively.

She tells herself that she secured her family's hold over the throne when in truth, she was simply lucky. She overstated Sansa's part to boost her own narrative. Of course, her actual ability is being demonstrated as she drives her regime into the ground and her luck runs out.

No one is coming to bail her out this time.

[jedimaesteryoda]

"I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince [of Pentos] keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?" -ADWD, Tyrion I

Interesting information from Illyrio. Just where did those lions in the Prince of Pentos's menagerie come from?

Leaf mentions "The great lions of the western hills have been slain," and Cersei herself remembers the last lions of the westerlands having lived in a cage in Casterly Rock as "remnants of her grandfather's time." They both confirm that there are no more lions in the westerlands. The animal that had inspired the sigil of House Lannister is gone due to overhunting and loss of habitat.

The lion in medieval European symbolism can be found in the Arthurian tale of Yvain, the Knight of the Lion who rescues a lion from a dragon and gains the feline as a companion symbolizing his courage and knightly virtue. Now, it has been replaced by the Mountain that Rides, an affront to everything connected to knighthood.

For all we know, that pride could contain some of the last living lions of the westerlands. A similar situation befell the Asiatic lion when overhunting from British colonists shrunk their number to just a few dozen in the 1880s in India. It was only the Nawab of Jungarah protecting Gir forest as his private hunting grounds that saved the species from extinction. Currently, their population is about to break four digits for the first time in over a century.

Either way, when Tyrion and Dany return to Pentos, he could bring that pride with him. The return of the direwolves and dragons signaled a rebirth for Houses Stark and Targaryen, so it could signal a rebirth for House Lannister with the return of the symbols of valor, nobility and chivalric virtue.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Did Daena the Defiant approve of her son Daemon's arranged marriage to Rohanne of Tyrosh?

Was she still alive by then?

If so, we aren't really given much info on her relationship with Daemon. Although there is a certain irony to Daena who suffered in the basis of her gender by her arranged marriage, locked in the Maidenvault and denied the crown being the sire of the house of the notedly misogynistic Blackfyre cause.

We also don't know about her relationship with Daeron II though he likely named her sister Elaena as de facto mistress of coin.

Daemon was married to the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, which politically was a good marriage and given essentially a lordship in lands and right to build a castle.

Maybe she thought it was a good deal but he deserved better. Had she been a queen, he would have been a prince.

The fact remains that we have a dearth of info.

[jedimaesteryoda]

The identity of Dunk's father is left a mystery. Some have speculated that he is a high lord's bastard like Umber, due to his size. I think him having noble lineage misses the point of his character. He is a bastard born in Flea Bottom from two parents with possibly a prostitute for a mother, the lowest of the low, and he proved to be the greatest knight of his time.

The only father he needed was Ser Arlan of Pennytree. That is the lineage he descends from, not in blood, but in spirit. Dunk passed or at least tried to pass that down to Egg. Dunk was special not because of his blood or lineage, but because he was Dunk.

Dunk the hedge knight who challenged a prince to defend a smallfolk woman, cut his own cheek in an attempt to stop a fight between Webber and Osgrey, inspired a future king and likely put his life on the line and tested his Kingsguard vows by taking a stand against his own king to save the life of an infant.

His greatness came not from his pedigree, but the choices he made and his steadfast dedication to his ideals and principles even when it was difficult.

[fartwright]

thank you, op!!

some fans seem uncomfortable with the idea that a poor kid could simply be good without there being some hidden noble explanation for it. so theories emerge trying to tie Dunk to famous houses, important bloodlines, or known tall characters, as though his positive character traits need to be genetically justified.

but it's clear that Dunk's story is meant to challenge the aristocratic logic: this absurd idea that virtue, greatness, and moral worth are tied to lineage. Dunk is extraordinary not because he secretly descends from greatness, but because he consistently chooses empathy, courage, humility, and decency in situations where it would be much easier not to.

so, in a way, the urge to upgrade him into secretly being noble unintentionally reinforces one of the ugliest assumptions of feudal society; and even though the books repeatedly show that nobles are not inherently wiser, kinder, or more virtuous than commoners, these fans end up accidentally reproducing bloodline determinism.

(bloodline determinism is closely related to biological determinism which has been used to justify racism, slavery, colonialism, genocide, class hierarchy, sexism, eugenics, et cetera…)

that reflects a broader instinct people absorb unconsciously, and it shows that, even if they consciously reject aristocracy, traces of this particular world view linger culturally: the idea that high status reflects inherent superiority, and that nobles are associated with refinement, leadership, honour, education, importance, strength….

commoners are often treated as mere background figures unless they prove themselves "special" in some way. so when a lowborn character like Dunk displays extraordinary moral strength and dignity, some fans reflexively assume there must be noble blood underneath it all, because they've internalised the idea that greatness must originate from better stock. that's why it can feel almost uncomfortable to some people that Dunk is just a Flea Bottom kid.

but surely, if he is fully lowborn, then his story suggest something radical within the logic of Westeros (and our own world, too): that social hierarchy is morally fraudulent, and that aristocracy is a socially constructed performance (i.e. the aristocratic class sustains itself through performance and recognition; a lord is a lord because society collectively treats him as one). Dunk's character destabilses that whole system because he possesses the ethical qualities associated with nobility while lacking any of the aristocratic status supposedly tied to them.

Dunk matters precisely because his presence challenges bloodline determinism, and echoes a broader rejection of biological determinism. he shows that honour is not hereditary and that nobility is not genetic. a person from the very bottom of society can possess more integrity and humanity than all the princes, lords, or kings combined. Dunk is not great because he descends from nobility. he is great because he chooses to be.

and sure, GRRM constantly plays with secret ancestry, so it makes sense that fans are primed to treat genealogy as the key to understanding his more enigmatic characters. and there's also a tendency in fandom spaces in general to equate narrative importance with ancestral importance, especially in the genre of fantasy.

and some fans may simply find it emotionally satisfying to connect characters into one giant dynastic web, because it creates that feeling that everything is interconnected and narratively explainable, which might make people feel safe subconsciously. but in Dunk's case, that impulse accidentally flattens the thematic point of his entire character.

Dunk's story is much more powerful if there is no reveal at all; because if he stays exactly who he appears to be – poor, obscure, uneducated, and ordinary by birth – then every act of honour becomes a direct rejection of Westeros's ridiculous obsession with blood and status.

tl;dr: Dunk is (most likely) lowborn, deal with it. and obviously headcanons are fine, but don't fall into the traps of biological determinism, kids!

[jedimaesteryoda]

A more thorough and excellent take on what I was saying. It is most welcome. "Nobility is not genetic" is a great way to put it.

To complement it, I'd say that fans forget that we have another lowborn knight from Flea Bottom in the form of Davos. Everyone pretty much agrees that he has no noble lineage, and that is an important part of his character. Dunk, like Davos, is supposed to provide an outsider perspective from the smallfolk below the table where highborn intrigue takes place. The characters most sympathetic towards the smallfolk are the smallfolk themselves.

Davos in spite of both being born among the smallfolk and an ex-criminal, manages to uphold the vow to the defend the weak to a level most highborn knights never do when he smuggled Edric Storm out at the risk of his own life. The only lord to come close to matching that is Ned Stark himself. He is also the man most qualified to be Stannis's Hand as Stannis himself admitted compared his highborn supporters.

The series attacks the idea of elitism itself starting from the first chapter with the inexperienced highborn commander Waymar Royce getting himself and his men killed. Marsh names Ser Wynton Stout as head of Castle Black in spite of his clear senility because he was the only knight left there (with good reason), and Marsh himself was being outplayed by the more humbly born Mance Rayder.

Dunk is Dunk, no last name except for "the Tall." That surname itself emphasizes his smallfolk identity in having no real last name that he can pass down, ie no noble father, no real home and speaks to the most obvious thing about himself that distinguishes him at the moment which people can recognize. His height even plays a role in that in spite of being lowborn, he is literally higher than any of his highborn peers. The smallfolk man who is not even a knight stands taller than any highborn knight in every sense.

True nobility lies in choices rather than blood.

[jedimaesteryoda]

In Sunspear hung a portrait of the Princess Daenerys who had come to Dorne to marry one of Arianne’s forebears. In her younger days Arianne had spent hours gazing at it, back when she was just a pudgy flat-chested girl on the cusp of maidenhood who prayed every night for the gods to make her pretty. -TWOW, Arianne I

I like this little detail as it explains a lot about Arianne's feelings towards House Targaryen. For Doran, Daenerys was the source of the lesson of the Water Gardens, but for Arianne, she was her model for beauty. She would look at her forebear Daenerys with her Targaryen-featured beauty standing in contrast to the "the pudgy, flat-chested girl" she saw herself as.

It gives another angle to her thoughts of her and Gerold's children being as "beautiful as the dragonlords," and her preference for the dragon in cyvasse. The dragonlords are her personal ideal to aspire to. The Targaryens are something to be desired and emulated.

It also means for the second Dance in fighting the current Daenerys, she will be fighting what is actually her ideal image. Daenerys is everything she aspires to be. She is a beautiful Targaryen woman in the image of the previous Daenerys. She had her rival brother killed with Viserys while Arianne's feelings towards Quentyn require no explanation. Though Arianne doesn't know that was Drogo's rather than Dany's. Most crucially, Daenerys rules in her own right without any men restricting her through her possession of dragonpower. All the men around her serve her and desire her favor instead.

Like with Theon, why does Arianne love the Targaryens? She wanted to be one, but never could.

[jedimaesteryoda]

The identity of Dunk's father is left a mystery. Some have speculated that he is a high lord's bastard like Umber, due to his size. I think him having noble lineage misses the point of his character. He is a bastard born in Flea Bottom from two parents with possibly a prostitute for a mother, the lowest of the low, and he proved to be the greatest knight of his time.

The only father he needed was Ser Arlan of Pennytree. That is the lineage he descends from, not in blood, but in spirit that Dunk passed or at least tried to pass that down to Egg. Dunk was special not because of his blood or lineage, but because he was Dunk.

Dunk the hedge knight who challenged a prince to defend a smallfolk woman, cut his own cheek in an attempt to stop a fight between Webber and Osgrey, inspired a future king and likely put his life on the line and tested his Kingsguard vows by taking a stand against his own king to save the life of an infant.

His greatness came not from his pedigree, but the choices he made and his steadfast dedication to his ideals and principles even when it was difficult.

[warsofasoiaf]

Can project freedom succeed?

Not if the plans change every 12 hours.

-SLAL

[jedimaesteryoda]

"Which plan? The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns?"

[jedimaesteryoda]

Could Rhaegar have run into the Kingswood Brotherhood at some point in his life?

Simon Toyne was unhorsed by Rhaegar at Steffon Baratheon's tourney, so he met the head of the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Otherwise, they did not seem to have bothered him. Either he took steps to avoid them when traveling down the kingsroad and/or they figured it would be a death sentence to lay hands on the Prince of Dragonstone.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Can the Others control the skeletons in the Stark family crypt?

No, because even if they came close enough the late Starks' flesh long rotted away and wights still need their muscles to move. It's why Bloodraven employs ravens with Coldhands as they eat the flesh off the wights' bones, rendering them useless.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Will Arianne in TWOW reach the same levels of paranoia as Cersei and turn tyrant to her people?

Arianne arguably shares some parallels with Cersei (eldest child with two younger brothers, antagonistic relationship with one, daddy issues, father intended her to marry Targaryen prince only marry pretender from enemy house, etc). However, she lacks Cersei's narcissism and psychopathy. She also got reminded of the lesson of the Water Gardens, a lesson Tywin never taught as the smallfolk do not matter.

That does not mean she can't go down a dark path as a character. She has dealt with the insecurity of thinking she is not worthy of being her father's heir. Marrying Aegon, along with one-upping Quentyn, would in her mind be the political masterstroke that proves her worth and her abilities as a player. She also still retains those fresh feelings, which would extend to their most powerful bannermen, the Yronwoods. There is also the question of who ratted her out to her father which would make her suspicious, and she likely would retain her suspicion of the Yronwoods.

Then Daenerys arrives putting it out that her royal husband is a false pretender of bastard lineage. Arianne would of course be defensive in that situation given she is married to Aegon, and along with losing her crown, it would mean losing face. Her act that proved her worth as princess of Dorne instead proved her poor judgement and rash decision-making, or lack of fitness thereof.

As anyone who has argued with someone before can tell you, people can be at their worst when they get defensive or desperate. They are more likely to go for low blows as well as escalate to getting physical. In this case, the other person arguing is the only one with magical superweapons. She might be inclined to pull out all of the stops against her.

Arianne would do some awful things in fighting Daenerys, like possibly killing her envoys who were Quentyn's friends. When their previously unbeaten campaign starts losing, the stress can likely find its way into her decisions. She might try measures out of desperation like assassination attempts and poison as Cersei did.

If Aegon dies and it is confirmed that he actually was a false pretender, that would put Arianne in a precarious position. It means not only is the war lost, but she dragged Dorne into a losing war to marry a false pretender. She would lose face, and there would be Dornish lords who might be thinking of going over to the dragon queen if not simply out of survival, but Arianne would be keen not to allow that given I think she would have already burned her bridges with Daenerys and Tyrion. She might employ harsh reprisals to those who dare, thinking they need to fear her more than Daenerys.

If she is actually the one who mounts Rhaegal, then it would give her the tool to compel them: defy me and your castle gets burned. She would stay away from Cersei's worst acts like having babes killed and sending people to Qyburn, but she would still do some bad things like possibly violating guest right, assassination and murder.

[jedimaesteryoda]

Young Falcon vs The Winged Wolf: Sansa and Harry

Harry the Heir is Sansa's latest arranged match. You can almost miss that they are intended foils to one another. Both are cousins to Sweetrobin and orphaned heirs to kingdoms with the Eyrie and the Vale for Harry and Winterfell and the North for Sansa. Their predecessors even have practically the same name in having been named for Robert Baratheon in Robb Stark and Robert Arryn.

"That will need to be determined. For the moment, you shall remain here at court, as our ward." "I want to go home." The queen was irritated by that. "You should have learned by now, none of us get the things we want." -ACOK, Sansa VIII "Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that." -AFFC, Alayne II

However, it resulted in different experiences for them as evidenced by their relationships. They were looked after by ruling ladies after the deaths of their fathers with Anya Waynwood and Cersei Lannister. Of course, Anya actually took care of Harry and was sensitive to his feelings as evidenced by not marrying him against his will, and cleaning up his messes like marrying his first baby mama Cissy to a man in her garrison after Harry cast her aside. Cersei did not really care for Sansa, didn't step in when Joffrey abused her, married her against her will and even ordered Ilyn Payne to take her head if King's Landing fell.

For Sansa, her claim was a means of torment with different actors from the Tyrells and Lannisters to Petyr using her hand and claim that came with it to make her into a piece for furthering their ambitions regardless of her consent. Her claim to Winterfell made her an unwitting pawn where she was a tool with no say in her future. For Harry, it was the opposite experience as he was spoiled by the lords of the Vale with melees and tourneys rigged for him, and all trying to curry his favor. His status as the heir to the Eyrie effectively made him the darling of the Vale, a pampered prince with a life of free rides.

It is even seen in their relationship history. Sansa had two unwanted betrothals with the first in Joffrey, buying into his beauty only to witness the beast beneath his gilded appearance and later to Tyrion to which she noted: A comely monster, that’s what he [Joffrey] was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was. Of course, Tyrion was not without his issues either, but relatively speaking he was better than the rest of his conventionally beautiful family with the exception of Tommen and Myrcella. Harry by contrast got to choose for himself with two conquests in the form of Cissy whom he discarded after her pregnancy made her gain weight and Saffron, the daughter of the richest man in Gulltown whom he said was different by being "very beautiful." Sansa learned to see beyond appearances while Harry is still pretty shallow.

The sigil of House Arryn is a falcon with even the castle name phonetically being aerie or a bird's nest. Jon Arryn was the falcon in the sense that falcon fathers take part in looking after their young and defending the nest as Jon Arryn risked everything to save the lives of his two foster sons, Ned and Robert. Ned's daughter may repay that favor in looking after Jon Arryn's son in the spirit of a falcon mother. Harry on the other hand may be the falcon in the spirit of the predator that primarily preys on other birds.

Harry will likely be among the eight members of the Brotherhood of Winged Knights to look after his cousin, so he will be staying at the Eyrie for a while. He and Sansa and Sweetrobin will all be interacting with Sweetrobin being the point where the two diverge.

Sansa and Harry both have an incentive for Robert to die. For Harry, it means inheriting all of it, the Eyrie and the Vale and for Sansa, it means being Lady Arryn, but more importantly, finally returning home to reclaim Winterfell. It means more to her than Harry as returning home was what she always wanted since the end of AGOT.

However, while Sansa does see Robert as a spoiled brat at first (not untrue), as they spend more time together, Sweetrobin becomes fond of her, seeing her as a maternal figure. He even grows to like lemoncakes because she does, and is pretty much the only person he loves at the Eyrie. He prefers her to read stories to him, and she plays the damsel in distress to motivate him to small acts of bravery. She herself comes to care for the boy over time, seeing the vulnerable, innocent child beneath. The Brotherhood of Winged Knights was her idea after all: His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

“Your lordship should not believe such nonsense,” Alayne said. “I’m sure Ser Harrold loves you well.” And if the gods are good, he will love me too. Her tummy gave a little flutter. “He doesn’t,” Lord Robert insisted. “He wants my father’s castle, that’s all, so he pretends.” The boy clutched the blanket to his pimply chest. “I don’t want you to marry him, Alayne. I am the Lord of the Eyrie, and I forbid it.” -TWOW, Alayne I

As evidenced by Sweetrobin's observations, Harry wants him to die. The kid may be naïve and spoiled, but he has good survival instincts. To Harry, Sweetrobin is the only thing standing in the way between him and being Lord Arryn. Staying at the Eyrie will likely increase his hunger as he is constantly reminded of his inheritance and resents the upjumped coin counter Littlefinger ruling what should be his and Sweetrobin, the unworthy sickly boy sitting what should be his seat.

“You are in the Falcon Tower, Ser Harrold,” Alayne put in. Far away from Sweetrobin. That was intentional, she knew. Petyr Baelish did not leave such things to chance. -TWOW, Alayne I

Harry just may be just as much on board with Sweetrobin dying as Littlefinger. Harry may be closer to Littlefinger in spirit than Sansa. Both him and Petyr are of relatively lower birth, "upjumped" through their connections to Arryn women with Lysa and Harry's grandmother respectively, resentful over being denied things they felt entitled to and willing to step over bodies to achieve their ambitions.

Harry is just eager for his inheritance while Sansa would be going back home, what she always wanted, per Petyr's promises but it would come at a price: the life of an innocent child. That was where her father Ned always drew the line as well as Davos and other good characters. As Ned bluntly told Cersei "I do not kill children," and resigned in protest as Hand over Robert's decision to have Daenerys assassinated having likely learned that from Jon Arryn. Sweetrobin is effectively Sansa's litmus test.

While Littlefinger likes to think of her as his daughter, she will always be Ned's daughter. Ned was Jon Arryn's foster son, and Jon Arryn risked everything to save his foster son's life from royal wrath. Ned's daughter, Sansa, may end up repaying the favor by looking after Jon Arryn's son, Robert.

“But what need have I for heirs when I am landless and like to remain so, thanks to our Lord Protector? No. Tell your lord father I need none of his brood mares.”

Harry might find an ally in Lyn Corbray, another landless knight second in line to a great Andal house in the Vale angry over his denied inheritance as a result of a child (his yet to be born nephew/niece). Lyn is a predator used to using his sword to settle things going by his many duels.

If anything happens to Littlefinger, I can see the figurative shit hitting the fan. There would be a power vacuum over the Lord Protector. Sweetrobin would undoubtedly pick Alayne or Sansa if she reveals herself to him. She is the only one at the Eyrie he genuinely trusts and all she would have to do is ask.

However, things aren't that simple given for Harry that situation might just be a repeat of his life situation having lived his entire life under Lady Anya's thumb. He would see this as his chance to finally take over the Eyrie, and likely have Lyn and a number of Winged Knights at his back. A potential palace coup akin to Jonos Arryn.

[jedimaesteryoda]

One thing that is consistent is that one can judge the goodness of male characters in ASOIAF based on their treatment of members of the opposite sex. Westeros is a highly patriarchal society, and one judges a character by how they treat those beneath them, so women's treatment in this society are natural litmus tests.

On one end, we have Tywin Lannister who began his reign by making his father's mistress endure the walk of shame, had Tysha gangraped not to mention what happened to Elia and his top henchman being the serial rapist Gregor Clegane who rape-murdered Elia Martell and smashed Pia's teeth. He even executed a woman captive for trying to resist attempts to rape her. Ramsay Bolton kidnaps Donella Hornwood, making her eat her fingers, abuses his wife Jeyne and literally hunts women for sport. Littlefinger grooms Sansa, and forced a young Jeyne into sexual slavery. Viserys physically, verbally and physiologically abused Daenerys and later her slaves. Joffrey had his Kingsguard beat his betrothed Sansa.

On the other end, we have Dunk who risked everything to defend Tanselle from Prince Aerion. There is Samwell Tarly who stayed by Gilly's side through wight-choked forest to the Wall and before tried to advocate for her to go with their party to the Wall to escape her abuser even as his fellows and Lord Commander told him otherwise.

Jon Snow gave Arya a sword, spared Ygritte, allows women to join his force at the Wall, names one Morna Whitemask as a commander of a castle and even allows Val to ride beyond the Wall to find Tormund, trusting in her. Of course, he's not perfect given what he does with Gilly. Ned lets Arya keep Needle and even gets her a dancing master which puts him above most fathers in Westeros.

In the middle, we have the Lannister brothers. Jaime was the only one among Aerys's Kingsguard who suggested they do something when Aerys was raping Rhaella. Post-kingslaying, he admitted he would have killed Arya had he come upon her in AGOT, and hurled abuse at Brienne. After losing his hand, he gave Oathkeeper to Brienne and risked his life jumping into a bear pit to save her. His treatment of Brienne signaled the beginning of his transformation. He later executed one of his own men for attempting to rape Pia, and stopped Sybil from hitting Jeyne. However, it is imperfect as he still instructed his men to loose arrows at Jeyne if she tried to escape. His back and forth demonstrates his struggle between serving his family's evil regime and his chivalric ideals. He even says "Sansa Stark is my last chance at honor."

Tyrion's relationships with women are as spotty as he is. Tyrion looks after Penny although he can be a bit rough with her at times. He looked out for Sansa, standing up for her against Joffrey, and when he marries Sansa, respects her boundary of not having sex, but he still marries her in what is a forced marriage, being among her captors.

There is also his longest relationship, the one with Shae which isn't a healthy one. He goes out of his way to hide her, sees that she's cared for, but hits her for mocking him with even his apology being half-assed "An err on both our parts" or "Sorry that you made me hit you." It's a relationship where he has all the power even as he tries to allow himself to imagine it's an actual romance at times. He later kills her when he finds her in his father’s bed and her false testimony against him even though she had little agency in that and likely feared for her person.

His only somewhat healthy relationship was with Tysha, and that was ended by Tywin's gangrape where he forced Tyrion to participate. Tyrion has yet to let go of his father's legacy towards treatment of the opposite sex and domination as he struggles with it against his fondness for "cripples, bastards and broken things" and desire for connection. His relationships are all his partners being smallfolk, whores or prisoners where he is the one in the dominant position. Penny is the only exception given he no longer has access to the institutional power of Casterly Rock in Essos.

He's going to end up serving Queen Daenerys where for the first time the woman is undoubtedly the one in the dominant position in the relationship.

Male heroes defend women and treat them as people, allowing them to pursue things in defiance of the patriarchal hierarchy whether it be swords or power. Male villains abuse women and treat them as objects, reacting violently when they challenge the hierarchy.